Schengen 90 days in 180 days question - what do you think?

Kent....sorry but the answers are: Yes, No, No 1) Yes. 2) No. Here's why. The PM returns to Europe on Dec 2. That starts a new 180 day period. (The first one is also still running.)She can stay 90 days between Dec. 2 and June 2. Which leads to question 3.. 3) If she arrives on Feb 1, 2011 she can only stay for 29 days--give or take a couple depending on my math. The first 180 day period started on July 31 and ends on Feb 1. However, a new, second 180 day period starts on Dec 2 when she returns. At this point, they'll look back to see how much she has been in Schengen in the previous 180 days. When she returns on Feb 1, a third 180 day period starts but she only has 29 days left on the second 180 day period which started Dec. 2 and ends on Jun 2. Confused? It can be. Remember, you can stay 90 days within any 180 day period. To give a quick example why it's moving. Let's say I go to Schengen on July1 and leave. I then return on Oct 5, and stay until December 31 (90 days). My initial 180 days are up. I then don't get to leave and return on January 1 to stay another 90. That would give me 180 days straight....and you can't do that.

I have different answers. The best way to consider it is that in any six month period, I cannot stay more than 90 days. While first entry "starts a clock" the time period can shift as entries and exits occur. For question 1, yes is the correct answer, I think we can all agree. Question 2, Yes conditionally, but one could also argue that a second clock started on Dec. 2 in a manner of speaking, so upon leaving Jan 22 after 52 days, you would only have 38 days available through roughly the end of May. So then, the answer to question 3 is No. To take the example to the extreme, I can't visit the Schengen Zone for one day to "start a clock", leave for 3 months, then come back for 89 days, step out for a day, then have another 90 days. In the end, if at any point I look back over the last 180 days and I was there more than 90, I have some explaining to do.

Someone explained it to me this way, and I thought it was a simple expanation that made more sense than anything else I had heard. I hope I can communicate it correctly. Take any date (let's call that Date A) and count back 180 days (let's call that Date B). Then count the number of days you were in Schengen between Date A and Date B. If it's less than 90, you're good. If it's 90 or more, you better exit quickly. Is this correct???

Here's the Schengen convention of 1985's actual wording of the 90 day rule: "Aliens not subject to a visa requirement may move freely within the territories of the Contracting Parties for a maximum period of three months during the six months following the date of first entry...." (italics are mine) This is at: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:42000A0922%2802%29:EN:HTML scroll down to Article 20. That's all it says. "Aliens not subject to a visa requirement" includes US and Canadian citizens on a regular tourist passport; and the "contracting parties" refers to the 25 countries that are parties to the Schengen agreement (I didn't even know they threw parties in the Schengen). The key language, and this is all it says, is: "a maximum period of three months during the six months following the date of first entry."

Kent, This is my understanding of the Schengen Visa requirements. The tourist category of the Schengen Visa (Category C) states that visitors of countries exempted from formal Visa application are entitled to single continuous OR multiple visits not exceeding 90-days during any 180 day period, beginning with the date of first entry into the Schengen zone. The multiple entry provision allows visitors to travel to non-Schengen countries (ie: the U.K.) and return within the prescribed period. Therefore, with the scenario you listed, if initial entry was on 31 July 2010 the individual was entitled to single or multiple entry travel of up to 90-days within the member countries until 2011 Jan. 31, with the 180-day limit commencing at the first point of entry. That would cover both the first 17-day visit and second 20-day visit. However, the OP must then wait for a period of 91-days before re-entering the Schengen zone before another 90-day visit is permitted. Therefore, the third visit to France would clearly be a violation and severe penalties may result, up to and including fines or deportation. The fine may be substantial, and is usually payable on the spot! Also, "overstays" may be considered a criminal offense, and could have implications for travel to other countries. In researching this question, one other aspect about the Schengen Visa that I don't believe has been mentioned before is: "Applicants are required to possess a travel medical insurance policy which is valid in all Schengen countries and which covers the entire period of the visit in the Schengen area (the minimum amount of the insurance is 30,000 EUR)." As this applies to those who must formally obtain a Visa, I'm assuming it also applies to those from countries that are exempted from the "formal" process. Cheers!

Thank you to each person who has contributed so far. Your time and interpretations are appreciated! By PM I've already sent a link, to this thread, to the person who asked me the question - to alert her that, while there's some disagreement among the contributors to this discussion, everyone seems to agree that my original answer was not a correct interpretation of the Schengen regulation. I'd be most interested in any further thoughts people have. The Webmaster recently confirmed that the "2 posts per blog entry" does not apply to the Helpline, only to blogs on the Graffiti Wall - so have it!

Try to think of the 180 day rule in another way - as a window with a frame that is 180 days wide. That window slides across the calendar as each day passes and if at any point the number of days you spend in Schengen exceed 90, then you are in violation. I think some people get confused by the "first date of entry" text and assume that means each time you "enter" Schengen the 180 days resets. That assumption is incorrect.

Kent....I just realized something. It doesn't matter how any of us interpret it. It matters how the immigration officers upon entry interpret it. My suggestion is to have your PM friend send an email to the closest French consulate and ask them.

It seems to me that it is not as complicated as some are making it. As noted in the law, the 180 clock starts on the date of first entry and you can come and go as you please during the time frame as long as you do not spend more than 90 days in the Schengen Zone. That would include staying just one day at the start and 89 days at the end. If you then leave and reenter the next day a NEW 180 clock starts. It should therefore be possible for someone, with proper advance planning and travel, to spend nearly 180 consecutive days. If you do this be sure to get date stamps on your passport at every entry/exit.

Jeff, "If you then leave and reenter the next day a NEW 180 clock starts." My interpretation is slightly different. Based on what I've read, when the 180-day term is reached, the visitor must leave the Schengen area for a period of at least 90 days before another 180-day term is allowed (91 days is probably better, as the visitor must be OUT of the Schengen area for 90-days). Have a look at The Answer provided in the second paragragh on this website for one opinion on the subject. Cheers!

The words of the Treaty are clear, supposing the words quoted are done so verbatim from it. They plainly state that you are allowed 90 days during the 180 days following your initial entry. Thus, a person arriving in France on, say, June 1, has until December 1 to use his 90 days. Unless another portion of Schengen or its associated law says otherwise- and there has been no indication that this is so, there should be no requirement of leaving for whatever period, once the 180 days has elapsed. You are now in another such period and you may stay in the Zone for up to 90 days----whether at the start of the 180 or at aby time during it. To do otherwise would contravene the clearly expressed meaning of the Treaty

Jeff and Paul n Sarah appear to agree with my initial interpretation. Others have different opinions, all with supporting reasons. Don't know who is right. I've advised the person who originally PM'd me to check with French consulate. I guess the French entry/exit authorities would be the final arbiter.

Ken is correct on the health coverage requirements. Schengen health insurance requirements are quite strict, IF they choose to enforce them. They have with both of my daughters, but I was able to find a policy that covered them through a broker in England. This will mainly apply if you really push your stay to the limits.

This is what I found when researching it~~~~~http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1842168 Schengen Zone Rules:
This post is a followup to a previous thread: Schengen Zone Redux We are all familiar with the 90 days out of 180 day rule. To repeat in slightly modified form: When you enter the Schengen Zone for the first time, TWO clocks start. One clock ticks down the 90 days you are allowed in. The other clock ticks down the 180 days within which the 90 day clock is running. This holds whether you are on a visa, or whether you are visa exempt. However, there is an ambiguity regarding when the 180 day clock stops, and how that affects re-entry into the Schengen Zone. Practically speaking, the question is: are so-called visa-runs, or 'chaining' periods allowed in the Schengen Zone? Stated simply: NO. Once the 90 days 'in' are used up, then the traveler has to stay 'out' for 90 days. I discussed several scenarios with a person at the Dept. of Immigration, repeating in different forms the sort of scenario which I have schematized as: xoooxx xxxooo The 'x' is in, the 'o' is out. This scenario 'blocks' the 180 day period, which are independent of each other, theoretically allowing a continuous stay of (eg) 5 months within Schengen (this 'theoretically' would include the small 'visa run' gap between the two blocks). This scenario is explicitly not allowed. In fact, the person I was talking with knew perfectly well what the problem is and even volunteered the following: "Sir, it does not make any difference if day 90 was on day 180. Once the 90 days are up, in whatever way, spread in any fashion over the 180 days, you must stay out of the Schengen Zone for 90 days."

Robin, thanks for that, where did you find that discussion? (if you could copy & paste the URL).

Kent, I must admit that when I first read your question and some of the initial responses I was sure the 90 day restriction was subject to a "rolling" 180 day calendar. That had always been my understanding. In other words, 90 days within the most recent 180 period is all a person gets. Otherwise, someone could enter the Schengen area on Jan 1, start the 6-month clock, leave on Jan 2, reenter early April and stay through June 30, leave for 1 night, then return for another 90 days. Basically they could enjoy 6 continuous months with only a 1 night break in the middle. After reading some of the other responses, I'm no longer so sure. It would be interesting to know if different people/agencies who are supposed to enforce this restriction agree on its meaning.

Kent, The information posted by Robin is exactly what I was trying to convey, and was perhaps presented a bit more clearly. This confirms that one must leave the Schengen area for a period of at least 90-days when they've reached their 90-day limit. If that wasn't the case, one could stay for 90-days, head to a non-Schengen country for one day and then return for another 90-days. In essence this would allow one to remain in the Schengen area for as long as they wanted. I'm sure the European authorities specifically designed the regulations to avoid this potential "loophole".

This forum is made up of fellow travelers offering their advice - not immigration experts. While most posters in this thread have tried to put the treaty's terms in layman's form, it is obvious that a few people are posting their "expertise" when it is clear they have none on this subject. We all do a disservice to people that come here for help when we offer our expertise when we don't know the answer. The previous thread on this topic was also full of guesses and inaccuracies. Bottom line is this - stays without a visa of more than 90 days in a 180 day period are prohibited. If someone has specific questions about Schengen and how those days are counted and for interpreting specific language in the treaty, they should talk with a consulate or European immigration lawyer.

As Douglas and Frank II have suggested, I've sent a PM to the person who asked me the question, suggesting that she not rely on my first answer and that she may want to refer her question to a French Consulate or lawyer knowledgeable in European entry/exit law. I've also given her the URL to this discussion. Thank you to each person who has contributed their thoughts to this thread.

This is how I would explain it. If you first enter France, for example, on July 1, you are entitled to a total of 90 days in any Schengen countries until the end of December (the "180- day period"). You can either stay in the Schengen Zone for the entire 90 days, or you go in and out of the Schengen Zone as much as you wish, but your total number of days spent in the Schengen Zone during the 180-day period must not exceed 90 days. After the 180-day period has run, you must then stay out of the Schengen Zone entirely for 90 days, at which point you can re-enter and you get another 90 days to use within another 180-day period.

My understanding is similar to Tyler. Just makes sense to me

How is the rule enforced? Do immigtation officers at entry/exit points from the Schengen to non-Schengen countries calculate time left and stamp such in passport? What are the penalties and risks? If you overstay under the radar, do they penalize you severely as you attempt to leave, with fines, or throw you in jail? I was told the solution is to leave Schengen on day 85, then re-enter on day 93.....then hope for no repercussions when you leave on day 180. I'm not so good with that option.
Are some points more lenient than others? A business colleague who travels extensively reports of a young ex-student who stayed on and just leaves Schengen every 3 months for a couple days, then returns to Schengen. Also sketchy. And finally...I've been researching how to get an extended stay or temporary resident visa in Spain (as my base). Is that even worth attempting or are they universally rejected? What about applying once in Spain? And the only hope is either a student visa (must be full time?); or a letter of invitation from a prospective employer? I'm behind the curve from you others, but I've tried multiple ways to contact Spanish consulate, without response or help. Maybe they never issue visas anyway. This is for my son, a U.S. citizen in his 20's who's graduated, saved his money, and wants to travel throughout Europe for more than up to 180 days, and stay at hostels and with friends...you know the adventure that used to be attainable? P.S. I've read that you must supply your return ticket and evidence of funds on initial entry. True?

Mary: Re your question about penalties and enforcement of the 90 day Schengen rule, see this prior discussion thread and read the post by Dennis: http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/helpline/index.cfm/rurl/topic/44403/5-months-in-europe-on-a-serious-budgetshould-i-buy-a-eurail-pass.html Quoted from reply by Dennis: "We paid over $500 for our daughter overstaying by 3 days. They will catch you at an airport, even on leaving. They can also take you aside for a long talk, forcing you to miss your flight home and having to pay full freight for a new flight (one that leaves immediately). The Schengen requirements are serious business. If you do not pay the fine they have the right to exclude you from Schengen travel for up to ten years. You need to research this, and ignore the travelers who advise you to take your chances."

Mary, "A business colleague who travels extensively reports of a young ex-student who stayed on and just leaves Schengen every 3 months for a couple days, then returns to Schengen." AFAIK, this is clearly a violation of the rules, and the "ex-student" will face severe penalties if he's caught (probably more severe than the example Kent provided). I suspect the authorities may "lower the boom" on someone who appears to be deliberately flaunting the laws. I can state from personal experience that the Police officials that have stamped my Passport at the airport when leaving the E.U., usually leaf through the pages to determine the date that I entered! That was the case when I departed via Frankfurt this year. It might be overlooked occasionally, but given the penalties that's not something I'm willing to take a chance on. Cheers!

For me, thinking of it as a "rolling 180 day period" works. During that rolling period, you can be in Schengen up to 90 days. Each of us may have a different way to wrap our minds around it.

The reality seems to be that it is not heavily enforced. I know personally I've overstayed and flown within Europe during that time and no one ever seriously looked at my passport. Part of the result of open borders is that passports are rarely checked (and even then just glanced at) unless you fit their profiles. Having said that - people HAVE been caught and been fined/sent home. You can be banned from re-entering for up to 10 years. The advice is absolutely to get a visa if you know you will stay over 90 days.

"I've read that you must supply your return ticket and evidence of funds on initial entry. True?" Not true by me. Because of the odd way I arrive, I only have a return ticket in less than one of a couple dozen entries. Nobody's ever asked to see one. Also, nobody's ever checked to see if I was loaded or destitute.

"I've read that you must supply your return ticket and evidence of funds on initial entry. True?" This happened to me, but it was 20 years ago. I was traveling on a cheap student fare (similar to standby) where you could only book your return flight 72 hours prior to departure. When I arrived in London (with my backpack), I was asked to show my ticket. When the official saw that it was open-dated, he asked to see my funds. I pulled out my travelers checks and credit card and then he was satisfied.

In 2006 I was asked to show my return ticket at immigration in Munich. Possibly because I had lingered and was not with the rest of the passengers on my flight

When I went to Australia, as a tourist, the rule was you had to produce your return ticket upon entry. I was flying Space A with the Air Force, so I bought a refundable ticket home just to be able to show something. As you would expect, no one ever asked me for my return ticket. After catching a Space A home, I returned the ticket for a refund. I've never been asked to provide a return ticket when flying into Schengen, and never seen the rule that says I need one. I wouldn't be surprised, however, at having to show some means of support during your stay, to avoid illegal workers.

Thanks, Nancy. That is what I thought. Kudos to the Norwegians as well.

I have done a lot of "research" into this 90/180 day "rule", to the extent there the participating governments provide information and analysis to allow such research. The bottom line is that everyone is hopelessly confused, from border/customs agents to representatives of Schengen countries who are authorized to speak on behalf of their nation as emabassy officials. One such official actually told me that if I stayed in a Schengen country for 90 days, left to go to Germany for 3 weeks and came back, I could stay another 90 days! THAT at least seemed to be incorrect, though I did not alert her to this fact. Does anyone know of an authoritative discussion/analysis put forth by a Schengen country which addressses the application of the rule to various fact patterns. The only one I have found is from Norway, which although not a Schengen country has signed a cooperation agreement and thus is essentially one. They say if you stay 90 days and leave 90 days, you can start over again. Of course, this is somewhat obvious, but it does seem to take care of the situations where you stay less than 90 days and are then out of the country for 90 days. It would seem then that a new 180 day "clock" must start running (otherwise you would be "punished" for staying less than 90 days the first time). So I would be pretty assured that any gap of 90 days does start such a new clock-- or at least should. But does anyone know of a nation which tries to address multiple fact patterns?

Looking back 180 days is the easy part. The question is when does the 180 day clock re-start? According to the Norwegian guidance, it seems it re-start if you have been out of the Schengen country for 90 days regardless of how long you spent there before, be it 90 days or something shorter. That simplifies it somewhat for me. But, again, I would like to know if any other country has issued guidances regarding other, more varied fact patterns (which are consistent with most peoples' experiences9. by the way, it would be nice if these countries who expect compliance would actually explain the damn rule.

Juno, I am not sure you are agreeing with me or not. According to the Norwegian government, if you have been out of the country for 90 days, a new 180 day clock starts ticking. In my case, I was in the country for 48 days from 7/26 through 9/13, then out of the country from then until 12/13. My understanding is that I can now stay 3 months in the new 180 day window. Authority for this can be found here ar Norwegian site. http://www.udi.no/templates/Tema.aspx?id=7403

Yes, David, you are right. The rule is 90 out 180 from the date you first entered the zone (in your example, 7-26). When you reenter on Jan 1, the 180 days essentially resets because, by the time you reach the end of your 90 days, the previous 48 days will have dropped off of the count. But if you stay 90 days beginning Jan 1, you will have to leave for 90 days again afterward.

It seems that the analysis depends on one looking back 180 days from the new point of entry in a Schengen country. As the Norwegian guidance makes clear, if looking back you have been out of the country for 90 days before entering again, by definition you could not have been IN the country for more than 90 days in that 180 day period. It gets more complicated if you have multiple entries and re-entries. For example, I entered the country this year for the first time on March 24th and left for the first time on April 9th (17 days). I re-entered on April 14th and left on May 4th (21 days). I re-entered on July 26th and left again on Septemeber 13th (49 days). That makes a total of 87 days, so I was in compliance with the rule (which I did not know existed then) because looking bcak 180 days I had only been in the country 87 days. However, If I returned a week later and stayed a month, I would have been out of compliance because looking back 180 days I would have been in the country over 90 days (I will not bother doing the math but you get the picture). Now that I have been out of the country for 90 days, the clock re-sets automatically as I said before. Because even if I stay for 90 days, looking back at the end of that period 180 days, I will have only been here 90 days. I think I have this straight finally, but this is sure no way to run a railroad. Have I erred in any way anyone?

You can calculate the 90 days per 180 rule here: www.visacalc.com

Hi, I am a U.S. citizen. Can someone tell me if it's OK to enter, for example, the Schengen zone (France) 3, 4 times within the first 90 days of my initial entry? I mean I intend to travel between the Schengen zone countries and the outside Schengen zone countries like UK/Ireland/Morocco multiple times (like 3+ times), but not intending to stay for more than 90 days within 180 days in the entire Europe including UK/Ireland & Schengen zone. Is there a clearly defined regulation on the maximum number of times a U.S. citizen can enter Schengen zone within the 90/180 days visa waiver allowance period? The reason I am asking this is because I was so surprized to hear from an Irish garda (police) officer that Ireland allows non EU member citizens like a U.S. citizen to enter their country only 2 times at most with the 90 days tourist visa waiver privilege only. May France refuse a U.S. citizen tourist without a visa if you return to France for the third time within the 90 days? Or can a U.S. citizen enter one same Schengen country from non-schengen country such as UK, Ireland, Turkey, Romania as often as you want, as long as you are not exceeding the Schengen 90 days/180 days rule and not breaking any other law in Europe or anywhere else?

You can come and go as you please within the Schengen zone countries up to a total of the 90 days within a 180 period. That's the point of the agreement.

Thanks, Douglas, for your reply. I'd like to clarify my question. What I was asking was to enter the Schengen zone from a non-schengen country multiple times, not within the Schengen countries. For example, entering France from USA, stay in France for 2 weeks, then, go to UK and stay there for 10 days, returning to France for 2 week, and go to Ireland for 10 days, and returning to France for another 2 weeks, go to Croatia for 10 days and returning to France from the outside the Schengen zone for the 4th time....? In this scenario, this person is entering the same Schengen nation (France) from outside Schengen zone for the 4th time as a U.S. citizen without any visa. Is this too many times to France as an American tourist? When it comes to Ireland, I heard from an Irish police officer that they limit it to only 2 time entries within 90 days to a U.S. tourist under the visa waiver circumstance. Is the frequency of the multiple entry into the Schengen zone from non Schengen countries without a visa not a problem here as long as the total of the stay in the Schengen zone is less than 90 days within the 180 days of the first entry? As long as the 90 days/180 rule is strictly observed, an American tourist entering the same Schengen country for the 5th time from non Schengen nations such as UK, Ireland, Turkey without a visa isn't a problem? Because, I thought I don't see the information about how many times of the multiple entries to the Schengen country from non Schengen countries within the 90 days permit is considered too many times for a U.S. citizen.

Christina, Your entry into a country is always at the discretion of the immigration officer. The Immigration Officer could deny you entry if they are not satisfied that your intent is within the terms of the rules (e.g. if they think you are conducting business or residing in the country rather than simply visiting as a tourist). As long as you are honest and not attempting to circumvent the rules, you will probably not have an issue. It is always a good idea to keep things that show you are visiting as a tourist and don't intend to stay beyond the limit (e.g. your return ticket to the U.S, hotel receipts, etc.)

Sorry if my answer wasn't clear enough. One of the MAIN purposes of the Schengen tourist visa agreement is that citizens of the participating countries can come and go as they please (for tourist purposes) without any other restrictions or paperwork requirements. If you come and go a lot, an immigration officer might ask more questions or delve deeper into the reasons for your visits. It might be wise to have documentation about your visits, like your hotel receipts, plane tickets or something documenting your visits. You can be denied entry if an official believes you are not there for acceptable reasons. But there is no magic number of visits you are allowed, just a cumulative time limit of 90 days within a 180 period.

I have another question related to time limits with visas: Does the 90-day limit which one must stay out of the schengen zone apply to all types of visas, or is this limit exclusively for the time that must elapse between obtaining another schengen visa? If I were to travel to the Schengen on September 20th, leave December 15th to return to the US during the Holidays, and apply for a student visa while I am back in the states, would I be able to return by the end of January (given that my Visa is processed and accepted) ? Or would I be required to wait until March to return, regardless? I know this works the other way around- if a student visa is set to expire, one can get extra time by leaving the zone and returning to obtain a schengen visa.

Schengen visas are only issued for tourist purposes, all other types such as student visas and so on are issued by the individual countries and are entirely dependent on their rules, although such visas do allow you travel within the Schengen area for short periods. So you'll need to consult the embassy of the country you intend to study in to find out what their rules are. In most cases I'd expect it would not be a problem, but you should check with the embassy to be sure.