Safety

My first impression is people are looking for a place that's unlikely to have muggers hanging out in the shadows.

It's about as ambiguous as 'economical'.

My first thought is that they don't want a safe falling on their head like in a Road Runner cartoon.

You would probably have to ask each individual poster what they mean by safe. I take it most are pretty inexperienced travelers who think crime is rampant and just want a bit of reassurance. Of course, that means they didn't believe the travel guides, statistics and forums which have repeatedly talked about how generally safe most of Europe actually is. Or they may have just paid more attention to the over the top people talking about being robbed and scammed.

Lets start an unscientific survey.
(a) How many times have you been mugged in your life?
(b) How many times have you been pickpocketed?
(c) How many times have you lost your credit cards through your own mistake?

Me: (a) None
(b) Once in the city I was living in, but my wallet was sticking out of pocket, and it might have just fallen out
(c) 2, or perhaps 3 times. The last time they fell out of my bag in a train. I didn't notice until after I got to my final destination. They were sent back to my some weeks later, but by that time I had cancelled them all.

Yes, I think it's about street crime.

Which is a bit more of a genuine issue nowadays with the popularity of renting flats rather than standard hotels - there have been a couple of cases recently here where people have been considering renting places on vrbo or similar in London that have been in quite dubious areas.

Generally, I believe people asking such questions aren’t very familiar with a particular locale and simply want to stay in what is commonly perceived to be a safe area by most. They don’t want to have to worry about crime while on vacation. If they’re asking about Seattle, maybe they want to walk home at night after a couple of beers and don’t want to get held up at gunpoint in the Pike-Pine corridor because someone wants their iPad and iPhone. If they’re asking about Athens, maybe they want to avoid being accosted by beggars and homeless people and would like to stay in an area where they don’t have to encounter such things. As for questions about Turkey, presently, people asking such questions may be worried about terrorism. I’m sure many are aware of the various bombings in Istanbul over the last several years. It’s a legitimate concern for some.

I agree with Cyn:

"My first impression is people are looking for a place that's unlikely to have muggers hanging out in the shadows."

We stayed at the Le Meridien near the Munich train station last year - while the area could be described as a bit "seedy" - there were bars and topless dancing establishments, we never felt unsafe even when taking public transportation back to the hotel in the evenings. While in Prague this year, there were homeless men near our apt adjacent to the old town square, but they did not approach us in any way. In Vienna, we stayed near Karlsplatz Station which in tour books always seem to mention drug addicts hanging around in the evenings. We did see a few winos, other than that we still felt safe. We are originally from Downtown Los Angeles - and there are areas such as "skid row" which we would not recommend staying at or near.

I rarely respond to that question simply because safety is mostly a perceived issue. And safety has different meaning to different people. We frequently recommend the Termini area of Rome for sleeping but have had other posters criticize that recommendation because the area is unsafe, seedy, run down, has a lot of strange people, etc. But we think perfectly safe. So who knows? And I would guess that people don't have a idea as what they mean by safe when they ask it. Someone recently asked if it was safe for a single woman to travel to Alaska solo.

I think they are looking for reassurance that it's okay to go ahead and take the plunge, they want to confirm that real people do this and that real people will tell me it is, indeed, a good thing to do. Foreign is foreign.

@Joan, great post. It is incredibly subjective.

I think everyone should be cognizant of their situation.

The answers are generally antidotal. "GGGG is perfectly safe because I've been there ten times and I have never been victimized" is as reckless a comment as 'XXXX is dangerous because once I got pickpocketed there." Eliminate the conclusion portion of the statement and I think its valid information to disseminate.

Sometimes, but not often, real statistics are available and that helps. I found some statistics on Barcelona pick pockets for instance.

And I think you get a lot of information from the news: "the PM of XXXX announced aid to YYYY today" "YYYY" being a group that has expressed a desire to do something bad in the U.S. I don't think its a far stretch to think if the guy supports terrorists that his country may have some security lapses; especially as it relates to Americans.

But all that is just data. Everyone's risk tolerance is different and everyone is correct in what their risk tolerance is. And it varies by situation. I have a trip to Ukraine planned; but I wouldn't take minor children to Istanbul right now. I got trashed for mentioning pick pockets in France and Spain and Vienna but personally I would take a few minor precautions and then go have a great time. Unfortunately one of those precautions involves the sort of cap you wear.

I prefer to throw it all out there and then respect the decisions people make.

Of course, if none of that makes sense then I vote for @Ed's theory.

Agree on the Pike/Pine area in Seattle. Unless you really have a feel for the area, I wouldn't advise walking around there at midnight esp having a sack over your shoulder carrying a laptop unless you want to take your chances as a sitting duck. The Munich Hbf area, though somewhat gritty, is nothing compared to Pine/Pike or Alameda St in downtown LA. at night. These two sites take on a total different character after dusk.

I think it's an okay question to ask, and I wouldn't make light of anyone asking the question. It is subjective, though depending on where you live, how you grew up, how much you travel, and your own personal tolerance level. As a female traveling alone terrorism would be the last thing on my mind, whereas personal, physical safety would be uppermost. Anything can happen in any area, but I would want to know about the general surroundings in advance. A perfect example is the Munich HB area. As another poster mentioned, did I feel unsafe there? No. Did I feel unsettled and partially creeped out? Yeah. I wouldn't stay there again and wouldn't necessarily recommend it to others. But I would never say it's an "unsafe" neighborhood.

In general, I think the average person is thinking mugging or other physical crimes.

On this forum, I take "safe" to mean the same thing as "authentic" and "local". It has no objective meaning, but it reflects the perceptions and anxieties of the observer. It usually only refers to the perception of becoming the victim of crime, despite the extremely low incidence of crime directed at visitors. It also usually seems to ignore the single largest real safety issue for anyone, visitor and resident alike- traffic!

Yes, "safe" has a lot of definitions to a lot of people. Maybe the questions should have more qualifiers such as "I live in the downtown of a large city" or "I come from a small town but I'm not a scaredy cat." So our responses can flesh that out a bit. So maybe we need to give a little more than a yes or no answer. So what.

Cities can change in just a few blocks. Sometimes hotels advertise themselves as being in one area when that's not quite accurate. Going to a site like this for more advice is a good idea. There used to be a Holiday Inn in Cincinnati that called itself a downtown hotel. In reality, it was on the other side of I-75, and walking to restaurants in downtown would have been unpleasant, and probably unsafe.

Those posters are asking for actual experience, direct recommendations, and reassurance. Give them that or ignore the question. Don't belittle them.

JG makes a good point about crime targets in US vs. European cities. Often if there is a rash of crimes against tourists it gets shut down fairly quickly in the US. For example, a few years ago the Park Police promptly went after a gang of punks that were causing problems on the National Mall in DC. Within the District, the Mall is considered a sacred or hallowed ground of sorts. It's traditionally been a safe place even at night. I think the police do a pretty good job of keeping the scam garbage at bay too although there used to be some guys trying to sell maps at the top of the Smithsonian metro. Not sure if they still pop up.

I've never been a victim (yet) standing outside Notre Dame or Louvre, etc. but apparently it sounds like there's a whole sideshow going on there based on comments in this forum. I just want to reiterate JG's point that the crimes tend to be different, and that's what many Americans need to be reminded of. It's not that something can't happen but what's likely to happen (if anything does) will be different than potential crimes that worry you at home.

“When's the last time somebody encountered a crime during the afternoon at Pike's Place or at the Space Needle?”

Well, we weren’t talking about Pike Place or the Space Needle, we were talking about Capitol Hill. Still, I think I get your point: Most tourists are visiting tourist sites, where crime isn’t normally an issue in the middle of the day. Back to my point, however, lots of visitors do stay in Capitol Hill, as it is one of the most colorful, hip, and cool neighborhoods in the entire city. You can hang out all around Pike/Pine in the middle of the day. You can even chill at Cal Anderson Park, but I would not recommend walking home to your rented apartment at midnight. A tourist/visitor might want to ask about safety in this area before visiting. It’s a legitimate question, and that’s my whole point. While it may be true sometimes, many people asking about safety aren’t necessarily super naive idiots. They just don’t want to have to worry about street crime when on vacation in Europe. It really doesn't matter if the steet crime in Europe is different or somehow not as bad as in the U.S. As someone else already pointed out, many travelers now rent apartments in neighborhoods not necessarily near popular tourist zones. As such, they might want to ask about the safety of a certain area that is unfamiliar. Pretty simple.

This is a good topic, but the only issue I have with it is that its phrasing sort of smacks a bit of pretentiousness. As Karen mentioned, people asking this question shouldn't automatically be belittled as morons.

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@ JG... About crimes against tourists, those unfortunately have taken place in San Francisco, not to mention in Oakland. I'm referring to those happening since 2000. Have tourists been targeted at so-called tourist sights, such as at Coit Tower, say at 0200, (yes, some do go up there at that time)? Most definitely.

Given the two places to be at night, Pike/Pine area or Munich Hbf, I'll take the train station area any day. Maybe I have a better feel for the place since it's the location of the Pension at I stay at as are three hostels all on the same block.

"whereas in Europe most crime is geared toward visitors. "

That's probably a visitor's perspective -- and probably a visitor who doesn't read the local papers or watch the local news.

Interesting topic. IMHO we can say that USA cities have much more violent crime than European cities. Statistics are confirming it. On the other way your likelihood to be pick-pocketed is higher in European cities.
I found it interesting that many contributors chose Seattle in their talk about crime. Actually out of the big cities in US Seattle has one of the lowest crime rates. True, in the Downtown area at the 3rd Ave and Pike Street there are probably the most arrests happening. But that's for drug offenses. I am not afraid to walk there even at night because there is almost always police around. So called Central District, Pioneer Square, International District (sometimes called also Chinatown), Rainier Ave Valley have much higher violent crime rate than Downtown.

Most of the crime anywhere in Europe (or anywhere else for that matter) is definitely not geared toward visitors. Most robberies, murders, and burglaries are not aimed at U.S. tourists. Organized crime is not targeting U.S. tourists. Keith can speak for the U.K., but I’m pretty sure Britain’s per capita crime rate is worse than that of the U.S., which should help debunk the urban myth often mentioned here that the U.S. is by far the most dangerous place in the solar system.

@JG and @Ilja, I agree with the two of you for the most part. I don't know that its productive to get into comparisons between the US and Europe as the subject is just complicated to try and present simplistically.

What I personally "expect" when in tourist areas is that if there are large crowds or densely packed tourists that there will be a heightened chance of petty street crime. Some places have a reputation of being worse than others. Presenting the names of those places does no harm and allows people to respond as they see fit. You will notice that I don't say what I do and I don't tell people what I think they should do other than maybe to put their valuable where people cant get their hands on them (what ever that means) . That's a personal decision based on a lot of factors like risk tolerance, attitude, etc.

So yes, it should be discussed and no, people should react in a way they feel is prudent and mature.

JG:

There's crime everywhere and no crime everywhere.

I've spent more than half my life outside the US, most of it as a tourist or almost-tourist. I can read the paper in a half-dozen languages, easily. I can watch TV or listen to the radio in few more - - with complete understanding.

The faux statistics, anecdotal observations, speculative conjecture, and helpful hints on travel boards are so far from reality (in both directions) that they are laughable.

The last time I had to duck bullets in Europe was eight months ago. The last time I was pickpocketed anywhere was never ago. That's a range - - I have no idea where the middle is - - nor does any other casual tourist.

Hey Ed -- what did you do 8 months ago to get someone so mad? Glad you made it out of that situation alive :-)

Nobody gets mad at me, I'm likable as hell -- it was a consulting job in Kiev that didn't come to fruition.

Tarnished my image by stepping around the corner to avoid strays bouncing around. Sullied it more by slinking the back streets to the hotel. Ruint it completely by getting an acute case of haul-butt a couple of days later when everything had gone completely south and the deal was as dead as a rock.

There comes a time when you're just too old for that crap - - and it'd be really embarrassing to get dinged by a bunch of amateurs.

Probably not -- there's no Ukraine Forum and nobody was asking about Kiev gelato and charming B&Bs in General Europe.

The real drama was Budapest in 1956 when the tanks rolled in (nobody saw that one coming either). I'd almost gotten out the hotel door to watch the suckers when Mom got me by the shirt tail.

My wife has better stories about Edition 2 in Cairo - - she had to work around really big mobs but said it was nowhere like what was showing up on international TV.

I post from the road a lot, obviously, but don't say where I am. Mentioned it in passing last week on hostels and was tagged as a sex maniac.

Ed's comment about reading the local papers, even glancing at the headlines on the rags like Bild Zeitung in Germany or listening to the local news to find out about the occurrence of street crime is quite accurate, but that presupposes the visitor can read the language. All one needs to do is to watch the local French or German TV news stations, whether you're in Paris, Strasbourg, or Berlin on your hotel TV to hear of local crime.

And true such amateurs in Kiev, agree with you on that point.

The issue with comparing crime rates is that they are compiled on such a different basis. For example UK rates for violent crime include carrying an offensive weapon, whether or not it is used. The raw figures appear to say that violent crime is significantly greater in the UK than the USA. It is impossible to pull everything out of the UK figure accurately to match the methodology of the USA figure, but using a range of assumptions it comes out as broadly similar. Murder rates are much less though.

Reported crime also reflects how much in a society the population either trusts reporting things to the police or considers it worthwhile.

I don't think anyone who posts on this website has access to European geographically-based crime or safety statistics, much less the language skills to be able to read it, so everything is just going to be a guess based on perception... so, basically, worthless.

And yeah, that comment about most European crime being directed at visitors? Utter and complete bunk.

Marco's comments are instructive. By the way, a friend's car was recently stolen in Chicago and upon contacting police was advised to complete the online form. Guess it's a common event there.

Or doing an online report may help in disseminating and expedite getting the information to field units, many departments now have scanners mounted on patrol vehicles that scan license plate numbers to locate stolen vehicles. Waiting for an officer to respond to a non life threatening call such as car theft could take a while, it all depends on what is in the cue for calls for service and their priority. Is car theft common in Chicago? Who knows? One could also guess it's common in Manchester or Berlin too. But as Tom said without further data it's all about perception...worthless.

Joan,

in my opinion, its one of the many relative words people use. Like cheap, inexpensive. nice, ect. for lack of better words to describe what they want or think they want. its no different than is it "warm" there or "cold" there. Its just like whats the "best". It would be nice if we could just buy the "best" of everything and make our life easier. Or better yet, have just one choice to choose from but that isn't happening yet so sometimes you need to ask for the OP to give a better definition.

happy trails.

I admit, I skimmed the thread, so don't hold it against me if someone already said this, but I think one of the main things that you're forgetting is that many of the people traveling to Europe and posting on this forum are from suburban or rural American. They already are uncomfortable with American cities, and now you're throwing in a foreign language and some place thousands of miles from home. I don't see why anyone is surprised by this question. I lived in Chicago for many years and now live in NYC. There are certainly places in both cities that are unsafe, and they are place where you could get a budget hotel. Heck, in Madison Wisconsin the cheapest hotels were on Allied Drive, but you really should stay there as it is unsafe--yes, Madison Wisconsin, recently one of the highest rated places to live in America! :)

So, while of course, there isn't violent crime at Edinburgh castle, anyone who's read an Ian Rankin book knows that there are Estates in the Edinburgh that you don't want to be anywhere near. And, of course, they are not near where tourists stay, but these are first time travelers. They don't know that. They've just watch Mystery on PBS and seen the hot bed of crime in Oxford so how different can Edinburgh be? :)

I think that the safest advise is to recommend your own places where you have felt safe and recommend that they check it out more specifically on TA forum where there are locals.

Pam

I grew up in the city and was taught at an early age to be aware of my safety and my personal surroundings. Such things became ingrained. It is not unreasonable for people who are thousands of miles away to try to get a sense for the surroundings they are thinking of staying in.

I had recently booked a hotel in Zurich and then read several reviews on Tripadvisor about needing to walk through some adult entertainment spots to get to the front door. Would I have been "safe"? Probably. Would I have been comfortable? No. I decided to switch reservations. Information that gives a sense of the surroundings is valuable to someone planning a trip.

When I commented I was focusing on the type of crimes that travelers are more likely to run across because this is a travel forum. I would hope most people know that cars get stolen, houses get burgled, money gets laundered, and drugs get traded just about everywhere. Money laundering/fraud is a crime but unless it has something to do with my change getting counted back incorrectly at a ticket booth it's probably not going to affect me directly as a tourist. I think a lot of this discussion is apples and oranges. If I were to ask you if a neighborhood is safe I'm thinking "can I get back to my hotel in the dark safely?" Not "is that restaurant on the corner a front?"