Revamped trip for 2021-Eurpope 8+ weeks itinerary input/advice

which of those stops do you see as "vacation from the vacation" days? Chill, sleep in, kick back, laundry, pizza and take a deep breath....

My experience is you will need some of those. Especially with 3 young'ns and then a hubby joining mid trip.

I've just been reading over the consultation for the trip that was zapped. I'm so glad to see how well you responded to the suggestions. You have cut right down on your single night stays.....

You might be able to get a full day with 2 nights in Salzburg (yes crowded and plenty of tourists in a normal year but that's because it is so special and there is so much to see) because you can probably skip the Innsbruck stopover and make Ortesei to Salzburg in one day.

I'm jealous. I'm going to assume from your comments and by your itinerary that you're a planner. I like you already.

I've never planned anything quite this extensive (yet) but if you'll be traveling with 3 young women, have you considered the luggage situation? That's a lot of suitcases to move around and squeeze into planes, trains and automobiles...and cruise ship cabins. I might start talking and training them now about packing light.

The first thing that pops out at me is the three nights at Lake Bled. The lake is lovely, but it's tiny; the path around it is only 6.7 km (about 4 miles), so you can stroll all the way around the lake in less than 2 hours. And you're going there straight from another lake district. I'd spend most of that time in Ljubljana, which is a really charming city. Or I'd postpone this little detour until a later trip and use the time elsewhere.

I think you're short on time in Scandinavia. I know there's a convenience factor to cruises, and they can be a fairly inexpensive way to see the area, but I wouldn't want to spend just one day in Stockholm and Tallinn. I'm guessing/hoping you're in St. Petersburg longer than that. I'm also a big fan of seeing more than just the capital city when I visit a country, and that's not possible with most Baltic cruises.

How are you getting from Oslo to Alesund? Anything other than flying is probably going to be an all-day affair.

The time allocations for Vienna and Paris seem short, but perhaps those are revisits?

I'm sure you're aware that it's likely to be miserably hot for your end-of-trip time in Italy.

You've got a lot of cultural variety here. My preference is to spend a lot more time in each country than you're doing, but that's just a matter of travel style. I like that you've managed to avoid the need for a lot of flights.

Wow! After reading your itinerary I need a nap! (OK, I am a lot older ... and take a lot of naps.) That's a lot of moving around and days lost to travel. You had indicated that you wanted to use Airbnb-type stays because of food allergies -- great as long as you realize they are more complex to check in and out of so not advisable for multiple short stays (we use them for 4+ nights)

I agree that you really need some days of "vacation from the vacation" here. If I'm not mistaken it is over 70 nights of what looks like a very rushed schedule. Everyone has their own style of travelling, but will you be able to enjoy the sixth and seventh week of travelling?

I know there's a convenience factor to cruises, and they can be a
fairly inexpensive way to see the area, but I wouldn't want to spend
just one day in Stockholm and Tallinn. I'm guessing/hoping you're in
St. Petersburg longer than that.

I agree that Tallinn and Stockholm needs more time. But visiting St Petersburg on a cruise is a good way to avoid the visa hassle. One way to see a bit more of Stockholm and save a bit of time is to alight the ship in Stockholm and take the train to Oslo. Saves the detour of going to Copenhagen and back.

I'm also a bit curious about the 2 nights in Voss. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it sounds a bit much.

The only "wrong" decisions are the ones that don't take into account each travelers' needs. Fresh jet lag arriving with the new additions, for example... On our longest European trip (35 days) and starting in Europe (where we were living at the time so no jet lag) we still took every fourth or fifth afternoon off for a cafe/laundromat/nap pause. Yes, you miss some stuff, but a fatigued traveler (times 4) is both enjoying themselves less and literally seeing less of what they do "see."

I too am in the "exhausted just reading the itinerary" camp. It doesn't sound like vacation too me more like a forced march. I realize we all have our own travel style. I for one will not spend just 1 night anywhere unless it the arrival or departure location. On the flip side - rare do I find a place needs more than 4 nights but i have been known to spend a week in one location that has great public transport with lots of day trip options like Amsterdam or Paris.

The longest I’ve done is 5 1/2 weeks - and yes by week 4-5 one does start to encounter some “ travel fatigue “ -
Each time you move you will spend part of that morning or afternoon finding your accommodations- some for us one or two night stays are something we avoid - a two night stay is still only one full day in a location so we edit by deciding if the hassle of arrival , finding hotel / apartment , settling in , is worth it for such a short visit . We’ve done 2 night stays of course , but we tend to book 3-5 night stays as opposed to “ transit “ stops - we don’t like spending our holidays in airports and train stations . Add to that with car rental return ( and making sure to find a gas station to fill tank before returning car ) it’s a lot of logistics for not much time .

Have you built in time to do laundry ? Even doing sink laundry requires an overnight dry at minimum.

I like your trip - but I would still edit it - if it was 3-4 weeks going at that rate I can see it being ok - but you’re up in the big leagues doing months here not just weeks

Your schedule reads like an Aggie organized it (hint ;) ).

Hmm.. let place some perspective to the opportunity to create wonderful travel memories...................
Slow down you move too fast, you need to make the moment last.

Eight weeks is a long tie bouncing among a lot of destinations. The greater probability is post trip your conversations will start with memories of travel glitches/stress. Let's not be that traveler.

For my taste, too fast. Good advice above. I will comment only on this section

Ortinsei-3 nights, return rental car in Bolzano, train to Innsbruck
Innsbruck- 1 night ( for travel purposes), next morning early train to Salzburg
Salzburg-1 night, next day rent car drive to St. Wolfgang
St. Wolfgang-2 nights, day trip to Hallstatt, drive to Lake Bled

Ortisei in May is not as open as you might like. Most lifts are still closed and there will probably be snow at higher elevations that impact hiking. The season is mid-June to mid-Sept.

That is 4 places you rest your head in 7 nights. That is really fast travel. We often spend two nights somewhere for travel purposes but always make it two nights if we've never been there before. For example, we once went from Ortisei to Pontresina, Switzerland, via Innsbruck, and passed two nights in Innsbruck to at least get a feel for the place. Could you make it to Salzburg in one day from Ortisei (I have not looked at train schedules) and make that your base for 3 nights?

Hi there, Amy -
I'm impressed that you've put so much work into this plan! Yay for you!

That said, it's rushed to the point of wondering if you're really all that interested in the some of your destinations, given that you've allowed so little time for them? Along with the same concerns the others have voiced, you're also going to need to manage your luggage on all of those days that you get into a town prior to check-in or don't intend to depart until after checkout. That is going to be an issue if you're planning on using airbnbs or rental apartments as, unlike most hotels with luggage-storage services, they're unlikely to let you in prior to the stated time just to drop the bags. While most of your destinations may have left-luggage outlets of one sort or another, it can take time to get it checked in and out, especially if they're very busy.

I'll agree that rental apartments are not good values for short stays because of the time it takes to make sense of the appliances, tighter check-in and check-out processes, and cleaning fees which can apply to many, regardless of length of stay.

Yep, as already stated, 1 night = a partial day, and 2 nights = 1 full day. Unless carefully arranged in advance, that one partial or full day could be the one in which the attractions you wish to see are closed. Weather? There's no pre-planning for a day of heavy rain/wind.

If you've never driven abroad, understand about rental vehicle sizes? You're likely going to need one larger than a "car" to manage 5 adults and their baggage. You also want anything in the car to be stowed completely out of sight any time you must leave it unattended.

I'll go with Nigel's vote to skip the Innsbruck night and go directly to Salzburg: two nights there, and/or give a listen to Laurel's good feedback about your planned 4 moves in 7 nights (Yikes!)

Which 1-2 places are you planning to stop between Bruges and Amsterdam?

I'd just skip Brugge/Bruges as there's no sense staying there if you're going to spend the only day you have day-tripping to Ieper/ Ypres. Go directly to Ieper or skip that one entirely in favor of Brugge. We've spent 4 nights/3.5 days there, including an easy day trip to Ghent, without running out of things to see. I liked Belgium a lot, just sayin'. :O)

Would really like to see you load ALL of your time in Italy (Rome, Florence and Amalfi Coast) up front instead of backtracking at the end of the trip. That way you could all fly out of Oslo and save the expense and time of an additional flight for you and 2 daughters BACK to The Boot?

Ok so lots of great things to think about!! First, I had not thought of leaving the cruise in Stockholm but that is worthy of some thought. I too, would love to spend more than a day there but that's the cruise itinerary so I didn't think I had a choice. I will also look into flying into Alesund (and maybe drop a day) I had not thought of that. Also, I think I may skip Innsbruck for 2 nights in Salzburg. I was worried that would be too long of a day traveling but maybe it's worth it to eliminate the 1 night stay.

TBH I am not a cruiser but we booked last summer with extended family and then when it cancelled I didn't request a refund within the 6 day time period so all I could do was a voucher. If I am going to go, that is the place I'd like to go. It does stop in St. Petersburg for 2 days.

As far as Paris and Vienna go, we spent a week in Paris 5yrs ago and loved it. I have never been to Vienna but from my research I decided I would enjoy Budapest and Prague more and decided to allocate more time to those 2 cities. Plus Vienna is more expensive. Amsterdam is brutal for 5 people in a place with a kitchen. I would have spent a week there if accommodations were not through the roof.

I actually went to great effort to plan the trip so that we have very few full days of travel. I was thinking my "vacation" from my vacation was Ortinsei, St. Wolfgang, Lake Bled, all of the cities we are staying 5 nights (because I plan to take it slow and give ourselves downtime), our sea days on the cruise, and Voss.

I'm sorry! Ortisei!! Well, that's just embarrassing.

Also, we will only be 3 at any point we are renting a car. The pack light advice is on point. I have already been thinking about that. We will all have a large carry on suitcase and one medium size carry on backpack. We will have a washing machine at most places we stay and plan to re-wear our clothes often.

As far as luggage storage, that is an inconvenience of an AirBnb. I have looked to make sure there is a convenient luggage storage place for each location that we arrive prior to being able to check in.

I'd love to do Positano at the beginning but the cruise timing means we will not have time. Maybe I should switch around Positano and Ortisei somehow?? Hmmm. I'll have to look at that. I was originally thinking Positano would be a relaxing 5 days at the end of our long trip. Another "vacation" from our vacation.

I really appreciate all the input and information!! So much to consider!

I'd just skip Brugge/Bruges as there's no sense staying there if
you're going to spend the only day you have day-tripping to Leper/
Ypres. Go directly to Leper or skip that one entirely in favor of
Brugge.

The town's name is Ieper, not Leper.

Ok so lots of great things to think about!! First, I had not thought
of leaving the cruise in Stockholm but that is worthy of some thought.
I too, would love to spend more than a day there but that's the cruise
itinerary so I didn't think I had a choice.

Assuming Stockholm is the last stop on the cruise it should be possible to leave the ship there.

I will also look into flying into Alesund (and maybe drop a day) I had
not thought of that.

It would in my opinion be better to spend two nights in a row in Oslo, so yes that sounds like a better option. Flying to Ålesund will require a change in Oslo or Trondheim but there should be several daily connections from Stockholm on SAS.

Also, I think I may skip Innsbruck for 2 nights in Salzburg. I was
worried that would be too long of a day traveling but maybe it's worth
it to eliminate the 1 night stay.

There are direct trains from Bozen/Bolzano to Salzburg that take around 4:20, if that is too long of a day travelling you really need to take a closer look at your schedule.

Amsterdam is brutal for 5 people in a place with a kitchen. I would
have spent a week there if accommodations were not through the roof.

Do you have to stay in Amsterdam? There are plenty of other Dutch towns that are worth a visit and are within easy reach of Amsterdam. You could look at Utrecht or Haarlem.

I haven't been to Amsterdam lately, but several people have suggested staying in Haarlem instead of Amsterdam itself. It's a very short (15- to 19-minute) trip between the two, and the trains run extremely frequently. Lodgings are reportedly a lot less expensive in Haarlem. I don't know that there's such a huge difference in the cost or Airbnbs (as opposed to hotels), but I think there's been something in the news recently about a crackdown on short-term rentals in Amsterdam.

The town's name is Ieper, not Leper.

DOH! Yes. Brain-and-finger fart there. Corrected.
The suggestion to consider staying outside of Amsterdam is a good one, IMHO.

So should I drop the Paris part of the trip and add the days to Amsterdam?? And should I drop Ortisei and Lake Bled to do Positano while I'm in Italy?

I have looked at Haarleem but for AirBnb for 5 it's pretty pricey too. I will keep looking as the time gets closer, many don't have dates published yet.

I don't know that there's such a huge difference in the cost or
Airbnbs (as opposed to hotels), but I think there's been something in
the news recently about a crackdown on short-term rentals in
Amsterdam.

Yes, they are banned in central Amsterdam and restricted in the outer parts. The Hague also has a ban. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/04/amsterdam-to-ban-airbnb-in-city-centre-bring-in-permits-for-holiday-rentals/

It appears that the holiday rental ban applies to 3 specific districts in Amsterdam's city center:

https://www.amsterdam.nl/en/news/holiday-rental-ban-3-neighbourhoods/

Editing to add: you can view the boundaries of these neighborhoods here:

https://allecijfers.nl/gemeente-overzicht/amsterdam/

Two of them ( Burgwallen-Oude Zijde and Burgwallen-Nieuwe Zijde) are listed on page 1, and Grachtengordel-Zuid is listed on page 3. Click on them to see maps.

I had actually read that. The one I found in Amsterdam is like a managed apartment building, with the front desk. Thank you for that information though, with the specifics on the neighborhoods.

Take the days away from the Amalfi Coast and add them to Oslo and Bergen.

I'll agree that if it isn't possible to load all your Italy days up front, then drop the Amalfi piece. IMHO, it's not worth the time/effort/$$ the backtracking will involve, and some of your other locations could use the extra days.

If the trip to Positano stays in the plan for the end of the trip, I would suggest (urge) that consideration be given to flying in/out of Naples.

I concur with others who characterize the trip back to Italy being of dubious merit.

How much of this trip is already booked - other than the Baltic Cruise portion? The round trip Dallas to Rome doesn't make sense to me unless you are already committed to it.

Having been to both, I think 2 nights in Salzburg and 2 in Lake Bled. Or maybe Lake Bled is your vacation within the vacation. With all that moving around, everyone needs to travel very light or just moving your luggage around will exhaust you.

Skip Bruges (touristy) ....

I'll cheerfully disagree with that...although will just as cheerfully agree with different strokes for different folks! 😉

It's an old, attractive and interesting town if you do some historical reading up in advance. Experiences may vary but it seemed to us that the bulk of day trippers clustered mainly around the Markt and Berg. A wander not all that far away turned up some breathing room as well as some attractions which were not at all overrun. It was also lovely at night and in the early mornings when the day-trippers were not around, the boats were not churning up the canals, and it was blissfully peaceful. Sightseeing suggestions can be offered up if it stays on the itinerary.

https://www.visitbruges.be/en

Ok- I'm thinking of a revamp to my revamp?!

I will skip Positano at the end. Flights are not booked so I have flexibility.

What about-

Amsterdam (or Haarleem) -7days and day trip
Ghent-7 days and day trip
Krakow-4
Prague-5
CK-1
St Wolfgang-4
Ljbubljana-3
Lake Bled 3
Salzburg-2
Vienna-4
Budapest-5
Copenhagen-3

Then the cruise, add a night to Oslo, fly to Alesund, do Bergen, Voss, back to Oslo and fly home.

I could change the order depending on flight prices inbound.

I realized I was spending quite a bit of time in Italy-which I am in love with by the way- but I was just there for 3 weeks last September for my 25th wedding anniversary. I haven't been to any of the above places.

Lovely place, Gent/Ghent. Best chocolate IMHO anywhere (I have my fav place) and great atmosphere. Easy pop down the train line to Brugge/Bruges. A good choice IMHO.

With this duration of a trip we encourage three recommendations:

1) plan at least two "rest days" to allow battery recharge
2) discus with travel mates "it's okay" to take off for some personal space time
3) pack less than you are comfortable and purchase some clothes. Second hand shops can be found and a little bit of shopping adds another level of experiences to the journey. Plus clothes make wonderful memories of the journey. Imagine being back home and when someone asks "where did you get that wonderful blouse/scarf/shoes/handbag?" and saying "This old thing? Budapest."

hey hey amy
not to be delores downer, many cities within europe have stopped/banned short term rental apts (airbnb vrbo, etc) last year in paris had a hard time finding one we liked and wasn't outrageous. read the fine print carefully, what's involved with cancellation (non-refundable is just that). some cities only allow 4 per apt (amsterdam is one of them. company we used has closed it's doors, don't know if permanent.) check capacity of guests and be honest, if you say 3 and show up with more, they can deny you entrance. check how many bathrooms for your gang, if linens included, cash deposit on arrival, two sets of keys, what floor and elevator/lift, steep stairs/steps to carry luggage, check in time usually afternoon, unless early allowed, is there luggage hold. if not look for one (stasher.com, vertoe.com). love marbleskies suggestions about buying clothes there. PACK LIGHT is a must, your gang will get big muscles from carrying their own bags, mom it's not your job you have your own
as James E. mentions, an established management company may be worth looking into. with so many cities you plan to visit you will run into different laws within them. you don't want to end up with place being a fraud and no money back.
amsterdamapartmentrental.com
livingprague.com lots of info here. jason is the owner/guide, sometimes posts in czech republic forum. also UncleGus posts here also
weirdthingsinprague.com
eatingeurope.com (upper left is section blog, click and can read about prague)
statue of king wenceslas riding upside down dead horse at lucerna palace
deliciouspoland.com
my friend had pork knuckle in prague, came on a small spit on a round cutting board with sauerkraut. she said it was sooo good, you could share it. don't forget to eat dessert.
i have some other info i can send you later of other places you'll be in. enjoy
aloha

We have taken a few 1 month trips to Europe and stay mostly a minimum of 3 nights and, of course, more nights in cities. For us we try to balance some city time with some countryside. Even on a 4 week trip, by the end we are already feeling exhausted and need some down time. So, for such a long trip I'd would actually plan a down day here and there. Then, if you don't need it, do something. On one of our trips we had planned a Julian Alp drive but instead we took the day and went to a spa, which was an interesting experience in itself! I still regret not getting in that drive, but we were just too tired.

Since I'm retired and have--until this year--been spending entire summers in Europe, I see things from a different perspective. I don't think two months is too long a trip. If I can keep going (at 68 years old) for up to 4-1/2 months, I'm sure you can manage this. However, you'll almost certainly need to allow some down-time. It may be even more important to you since you're traveling in a family group, and one person's mood can affect the entire family. I'm a solo traveler, so if I get tired/annoyed, it doesn't affect any fellow travelers.

There's more than one way to accomplish down-time. I don't plan explicit rest days, and I don't sit in cafes watching the world go by. However, I'm a slow starter and don't usually plan early-morning activities (often not leaving my room until 10 or 11 AM), and I spend enough days in each city to cover the sights I want to see--including a lot of time just walking around, admiring the architecture--without being on a hectic schedule. I also take a lot of day-trips to smaller cities, and those 1- to 2-hour train/bus rides provide little breaks.

I love large cities (I live in one), but I do find them a bit more tiring to visit than smaller places. There's just so much to do in a large city that it's easy to feel you need to keep pushing. Sights may be some distance apart, so time will be spent walking between them. In allocating your time, don't forget that it's quite likely you'll learn of interesting special events (via posters, etc.) after you reach a new city. If you've given yourself just barely enough time to accomplish your pre-planned goals, how will you squeeze in the festival or the outdoor concert? Just as a general guideline, I think on a long trip like this, you're planning to do too much if your itinerary has you scheduling things by the hour rather than just by the day. Edited to add: I should note that I don't even schedule things by day, beyond being aware of what days the various sights are going to be closed.

We, too, have been doing longer trips (Husband's time sensitive meds are my excuse -LOL!) .
I like your new itinerary - fewer long country-to-country transfer days. And more days to truly explore and enjoy each area.

Is there a way you can change the date of your cruise to between your time in Bruge and the "eastern" countries? You could then have a short flight from Belgium or Amsterdam to Copenhagen for the cruise, complete Scandinavia and then fly to Krakow.....

No mater what sequence you do - it sounds like a wonderful trip. Have a great time.

I wanted to thank everyone for all the great insight and advice. I kind of revamped my revamped revamp and have finalized my plans. I've booked places most places, all cancellable. I have taken advise on AirBnB in Vienna, Salzburg and Amsterdam and have gone with Apart-hotels or serviced apartments instead. Here is my final answer-

Rome-4nights (kitchen/AC/washing machine/(luggage storage available 5min walk from apartmen/t)- train to Florence
Florence-5 nights (kitchen/AC/washing machine/luggage storage not needed)- train to Venice
Venice-2 nights (stovetop/AC/no washing machine/luggage storage available) -private transfer to Ljubljana
Ljubljana-4 nights with rental car and day trips (kitchen/AC/washing machine/luggage storage available)- drive to Lake Bled
Lake Bled-3 nights with day trips (stovetop/AC/no washing machine/luggage storage available)- private transfer to Budapest
Budapest-5 nights with 1 day trip (kitchen/AC/washing machine/no luggage storage needed)- train to Vienna
Vienna-4 nights with 1 day trip (kitchen/AC/washing machine/luggage storage available)-train to Salzburg rent car to St Wolfgang
St Wolfgang-3 nights with day trip to Hallstatt (stovetop/no AC/washing machine/luggage storage available-drive to Salzburg
Salzburg-2 nights-(kitchen/AC/washing machine/luggage storage available)- Bean Shuttle to Cesky Krumlov
Cesky Krumlov-1 night (stovetop/no AC/washing machine/luggage storage @infocenter in town center)- bus to Prague
Prague-5 nights (kitchen/AC/no washing machine/luggage storage available)- private transfer to Krakow with stop Auschwitz
Krakow-3 nights (kitchen/no AC/washing machine/luggage storage not needed)- fly to Amsterdam
Amsterdam-5 nights (kitchen/AC/washing machine/luggage storage available)- fly to Copenhagen
Copenhagen-2 nights (kitchen/no AC/washing machine/luggage storage available)-Cruise
Cruise- disembark Copenhagen, overnight ferry to Oslo
Oslo-1 night (stovetop/no AC/no washing machine)- fly to Alesund
Alesund-2 nights (kitchen/ no AC/washing machine/luggage storage available for $ @ Marriot or Thon hotels) -2nd night leave @0100 on Hurtigurten for Bergen
Bergen-2 nights (kitchen/no AC/washing machine/check in 15:00, shouldn't need luggage storage)- fly to Stockholm
Stockholm -5 nights (kitchen/AC/washing machine/luggage storage available @ Ahlens City (10-15min walk from Old Town)
Fly home

Hard to tell from this but we will not over schedule our days. We will pick maybe 1 thing a day to do and let the rest come to us and we will plan some days of nothing but relax- whether it be at a lake, a spa, or in a cafe. I know to some this looks and sounds crazy but I am perfectly prepared to be traveling for 2+ months. We will pack light and have already decided we will each have a carry on roller bag and a back pack only. We were supposed to go this summer and I had saved for a year to pay for it, so I have airfare, cruise and a good portion of our stays already paid for. My husband and middle daughter are going to fly into Amsterdam and do the remainder of the trip with us. I am so excited!!! I just hope that we will be able to travel by that time next year!!!

Thanks again all!! Wishing you very happy future travels:)

Pre-COVID-19, these things required pre-booking:
- Auschwitz (was sold out for 8 days straight as far back as 2018)
- Krakow: Schindler Factory
- Amsterdam: Van Gogh Museum and Anne Frank House. Maybe also Rijksmuseum.
- Rome: Colosseum, Domus Aurea and Borghese Gallery. Probably other things as well, including early-access tours to the Vatican Museums.
- Budapest: Parliament building. And I ran into a significant ticket-buying line at the House of Terror.

I am not up on the situation in Venice and Florence, but I helieve folks have mentioned some sights that sell out early.

The revamp of your revamped revamp of your plan looks wonderful! I know you will enjoy it!

While in St. Petersburg, I suggest one day visiting Catherine's Palace and Peterhof, the second day, The Hermitage and Peter and Paul Fortress.

We did two days in Stockholm, five is a lot. You could spend another day in Copenhagen and four in Stockholm. We loved Norway, doing a cruise that visited the places you list (except Oslo). The Fjord at Geiranger is amazing. Alesund is great. Suggest Norway in a Nutshell. In Copenhagen, recommend a free walking tour and a canal cruise.

In Budapest, if you stay at the Hotel Gellert by the bridge, that is neat.

One thing about Auschwitz is that I would not recommend taking young kids there. Your youngest is 16, so perhaps that is OK. My Wife had nightmares for several days and I didn't sleep that well either. Still, it is important to know what happened there and for it not to happen again.