Retiring in Europe

Portugal is maybe the easiest place to get the Visa. Still not inexpensive. Google "Portugal visas".

Following...........with interest.......................

You can check out these guys for the "Golden Visas". I know the EU clammped down on a lot of them a few years ago.

I guess there are two ways to do this.

1. Find an easy route in, then retire there.
   Or
2. Decide where you want to retire and pursue the system.
   

I did the latter.

All sorts of interesting unexpected consequences popped up. Nothing I couldnt solve but some were surprising. Like my investment broker not wanting me any longer. So I had to resturcture my plans a bit to keep them happy.

Good luck. Took me about 3 months and almost $2,000.00 to get my residency, but I started posistioning myself a decade ago.

I'm not a big fan of hot weather so I'm not focusing on southern Europe.

A friend of mine who is married to an Italian citizen--he has Italian residency--is now seriously looking into moving from California to Portugal.

Moving would be easy for me. I have no home and whatever belongings I still have--most related to travel items--are stored in a 5 x 5 storage unit. All I have to do is pack up a few things and off I go.

I take care of all my financial matters electronically and have been for years. No problem with addresses.

I would also like to find a place with a decent expat community and where English is widely spoken. I've read a few articles on that subject alone.

I'm looking for any websites people know that will help with my research.

Toytown has been around for decades, I believe, and has a wealth of information about getting residency in Germany and becoming an expat. Lots of willing forum members to help, also. https://www.toytowngermany.com/

ETA: I just looked at it and realized that Toytown is now kaput. Evidently it was bought by The Local, which has news but also has info for expats and potential expats. You need to change the URL for each country, though. For example, Denmark is https://www.thelocal.dk; Switzerland is https://www.thelocal.ch, Germany is https://www.thelocal.de and so on.

One more item--I texted a friend of mine who lives is from the US but now lives in the Netherlands, and she said that this site has a lot of information for expats in any number of countries. https://www.expatforum.com/

A couple things to research money wise:
If you have a brokerage account in the US you may not be able to keep it if you do not have a US address. When I was a broker we could not hold accounts for people living in Canada, UK and I don’t remember the others (that was 15 years ago). Working in stock plan services (employee stock options) non-US accounts were coded ‘liquidation’ only. Others had to be closed as soon as the options were exercised. Check with your broker to find current regulations. Just because you have an online account, you may not be able to keep it. Things change, I’ve been out of the business for 10 years.

Different issue: You could trigger taxes. My neighbor is German, living in the US for years. He said if he were to move back to German and move his money there, he would have to pay taxes on money brought into his German bank account. I don’t know those rules or dollar amounts that would trigger taxes.

Personally, I know of two who became ex-pats, both very dear friends of mine, both basically Calif boys, the younger one by birth, both have fluency in German, both totally bi-lingual with German and English.

The older of the 2 guys I knew since I was a college sophomore in 1968 who upon retirement in 2010 in SF moved to Budapest, living there ever since, and is not coming back to the US or CA. He receives Social Security, (obviously), his pension, Medicare A & B, has his bank accounts in Hungary as well as in Europe and still here in CA too.

You're right about the investment accounts. Non-residents can sell, but can't buy. Some people are told to liquidate.

Get acquainted with the tax treaties, income and inheritance. Every country has different treaties with the US, some better than others. Also, if you have any assets or expect to receive any inheritance, read the inheritance laws. You could end up paying 40-60% in inheritance taxes in some countries if some dear old uncle leaves you a chunk of change.

I assume you already have a bank account in a European country. If not, those take persistance to open nowadays due to the US FATCA reporting requirements to prove you aren't laundering money.

Facebook private groups exist for every country on every subject imaginable. visas, fiscal, administration, buying and renting, health, tenants and landlords, getting a driver's license, remodeling an old house.

We lived in Germany for four years, while working for the US Army.
We had the benefits of having an APO address (US postal address) use of cheap commissary groceries, the PX for relatively cheap products. We didn't pay German taxes (which were significantly higher than our US taxes.

We received a housing allowance from the Army that more or less paid for our housing and utilities. Also, our cars were registered with the US military.

It was great, we loved being able to travel without the transatlantic flights. Also, we already had our car to drive. We even had stamps to buy cheaper gasoline for our car while in Germany.

Aside from that, we had to find our own physicians and dentists, which turned out to be expensive by US standards. Our health insurance did cover some of that, but cost was higher than back home. We were in our 40s and had kids in their teens.
Having to pay for medical and dental in your 60s or 70s would likely be expensive. Most US health insurance including Medicare doesn't work overseas like our Federal Blue Cross.

Living on the economy was what we call Americans that lived in Europe on their own. 35 years ago, southern Europe was still very cheap to live, I understand the cost of living has gone up relative to northern Europe since the EU has helped southern Europe prosper and improve its standard of living. We saw that in Portugal in particular. Still, places like Portugal are still cheaper than Germany.

Living there full time would require leasing an apartment or buying a home. Expect that to cost, especially in large European cities.
Remote areas would be cheaper, but would those place be appealing? They might depending on your lifestyle. Still, much research is required.

Buying an automobile would be expensive and getting a driver's license in Europe might be a royal pain in the butt. We found out what it took for Germans to get driver's licenses. It was way more bureaucratic and complicated than in the USA. Not sure if your US license would work for long if your residence was in Europe.

Groceries are more expensive in Europe than the USA. VAT taxes can be significant, depending on where you live.

Language could be a problem in dealing with basic living, like getting letters from your local government or tax office.

Other things that we found in Germany that could occasionally be irritating were that if it snowed or iced up the sidewalk near your house or apartment with outside sidewalk, you were responsible for clearing ASAP. Also, German law required you to notify the police when you moved to let them know where you lived. There is more stuff like that to deal with in foreign countries.

Living overseas is fun, and we enjoyed our time there with all the travel opportunities, but life if different there. Parking in cities can be hard to find and expensive. People are expected to take public transportation, which may be another issue to adjust for.

We still enjoy traveling to Europe, Asia, South America, Australia, and other places in the World, but still love coming home so we can see our children frequently and enjoy things like college football and visit great places in our own country.

If you have a brokerage account in the US you may not be able to keep
it if you do not have a US address.

Its not about the address. It is about where you are a legal resident. You cant fake that if you pay taxes in Europe.

And on the language issue, I retired in a small coutnry with an incredibly obscure language, so everyone here has to learn English to function beyond the border.

We lived in Germany years ago for 2.5 years while I was in the Army. Had an apartment downtown Wurzburg a good car an all the benefits. Today we ran all the expenses and being away from family was the part we didn’t think we could do m. Decided to become a half expat. 3 out of country 3 in the country and so on. Did it once and we think we will try it again. We did 85 days out of country about 95 days in the States.

@Fred, how does he get Medicare A & B while living abroad?

I'm not giving up my US address so I won't have a problem with financial issues or Medicare.

I'm going to use the European home as a "second" one which is perfectly legal. As long as I stay in the country I choose for the minimum time required--usually six months--I am free to come and go as I please.

@ stan....I don't know the exact details. I asked him once as he is 5 years my senior and told me he did, ie, got everything he is entitled to. He worked here in SF until retiring in 2010, at which time either in 2010 or 2011 he left for good, moving to Hungary.

“Groceries are more expensive in Europe than the USA.”

Not true for France.

Groceries are not more expensive in Germany either. I am shocked when I shop in the US at how much food costs. Who needs a car when you have great public transportation in many countries? As for medical care, it is cheaper everywhere in the world than it is in the US, even if you have to pay out of pocket. For a visa, they will want you to have health insurance that is valid in their country.
There are plenty of expat pages on FB. Whether you like FB or not, these can be treasure troves of information.

I am looking at Portugal. Because of friends living in Tavira, it seems there is a nice expat community there, UK and American. They fly into Faro. Haven't delved into the visa process, very much, but it seems doable. Looked at Spain too, but more people speak English in Portugal than Spain.

It is shame about Toytown. I used to be a moderator for them and it really was a helpful website. Once they sold to the Local, it just went downhill. The Local used to be good too, but now you have to pay a subscription to read 90% of what they are posting.

“Groceries are more expensive in Europe than the USA.” Not true for France.

Nor Spain, nor England or Scotland. Elsewhere I have insufficient knowledge.

Periscope brought up the language issue, I want to share something I observed in my work with hospice:

Many folks in the last month or 2 of life lose any additional language that they have learned and revert to the language of their childhood. Which had us scrambling thru our staff to see which home aides had at least some Spanish, a smattering of German, whatever.

What was really heart breaking, and more my field of practice, was supporting spouses and children who did NOT speak the first language of their dying Loved One.

doricB, that is heartbreaking.

Frank II, InternationalLiving.com might be helpful.

I'm not giving up my US address so I won't have a problem with financial issues or Medicare. I'm going to use the European home as a "second" one which is perfectly legal. As long as I stay in the country I choose for the minimum time required--usually six months--I am free to come and go as I please.

You certainly can be on Medicare in the US. However, Medicare will not pay for health services performed in Europe.

Everyone focuses on the amount of time you need to be in a European country to maintain a Visa. I would suggest you find out the flip side. How long can you be living outside the US before you experience residency problems in a state or in the US. Whatever the cost, my advice is to hire an attorney specializing in this type of move. You do not want to lose your US citizenship because you reside too long outside the US. This can happen if you don't meet certain requirements. Don't become a man without a country. If you accept a retirement visa in another country, be careful of its conditions and make sure those conditions do not put you at odds in the US.

Someone mentioned tax laws. Besides healthcare, that is the most important thing to carefully watch out for. Just because your income is in the US or your money sits in the US, be sure the foreign country does not have rights to it through their tax laws. Some conditions of resident or retirement visas might have financial requirements or considerate it your global income like the US does on income earned outside the US.

Seek professional assistance if you are serious about this type of move. Social media or this forum isn't the place for the answers you are looking for if you are serious about spending more time in Europe than the US.

Consider buying a small hotel and we all will stay there when we travel to Europe. You'll give RS forum discounts I presume! Good luck in your quest.

If you are looking at using a place in Europe as a second home, you can do the 90 day in and 90 day out thing. I'm sure you know all about it. It had its inconveniences during Covid but plenty of people do that. I also don't know how that new European visa will affect repeated 90-day visits.

If you get a one-year tourist or residence visa, the rules, at least in France, state that you can be gone visiting other countries for 90 days.

As a part-timer with primary residence in the US, there's less to consider with tax and inheritance treaties.

We're dual nationals and consulted a lawyer and an accountant, both specializing in US/French law after we had done our own research. Those services are expensive, so we wanted to get to the nitty-gritty without wasting time.

You cannot lose your US citizenship because you are out of the country too long. This simply does not ever happen.
You can lose your permanent residency visa in a EU country if you are gone for more than 6 months though. Do not mix up residency visas with citizenship.

You can not loose your citizenship because you live someplace else.

You can have medicare while living elsewhere, but you have to return to the US to use it. So get evacuation insurance. $$$$

Social Security, no problem

Regular Bank Accounts, can be bit tricky. Mine wanted a residential address and recognized my mail service address as not being a residental address. I use my daughter's address now.

Many (most) brokerage firm will no longer want you if they recognize that you are a legal resident of another country. But there are some that specialize in this.

You will loose your right to vote in local elections unless you keep a local address and even that if you are a resident of another country is somewhat suspect.

You will not be able to renew your drivers license unless you keep a local address and even that if you are a resident of another country is somewhat suspect.

You may or may not be eligable for the health care system in your host country. I am not and I am required to have insurance in my host country. $$$$$

Many countries have tax treaties, many do not. You might end up being double taxed on your income. $$$$

Groceries do not cost more .... generally. Except the selection can be more limited.

Cost of living varies a lot across Europe. Where I live its 25% to 30% less. Then when I subtract the cost of automobile ownership I save another $1.000 a month. But that reduction comes with a significant life style change. For instance the median for a family of 4 in the EU lives in a home of less than 800 sf and rides the bus.

You will probably have to be in your host country 180 days or 6 months or 90 days in every 180 days each year to keep your visa.

Language is not a functional issue. At least not where I live. Many ways to cope. English is so prevelent where l live its not much of an issue on any level.

Mr. E.....I've said this. I am not giving up my address in the US.

I've had it for over 10 years. My bank recognizes it, my investment companies recognize it, everyone recognizes it.

Whether or not your bank recognizes a non-residentail address--PMB--depends on state law. My state recognizes a PMB as a legal address and grants residency to that address. They designed this strictly for people who live overseas or travel full time. I have a drivers license, can get insurance, and for now can vote. (The state is considering taking away the right to vote if you don't have a residential address but everything else stays the same.)
Social security gets automatically deposited in my bank account, Medicare itself does not cover me overseas but my supplement does. (limited but not going to qualify for in country insurance in Europe)

As stated, you can't lose your US citizenship if you are out of the country for a length of time. The only way you can lose it is if you denounce it or join a terrorist group. (See UK news today.)

BTW, if anyone is interested, the state is South Dakota. I go there every five years to renew my D/L. They require I spend at least one night every five years to qualify as a resident. Well, at least to renew my D/L. No state income tax, no vehicle inspection for registration. However, you can't take advantage if you have a residence anywhere else in the US.

I actually have two PMB's including one in another state. I have some bank and investments using the second address. I have no problem with them either.

It must be Texas causing the problem.

Frank II, I was just listing out the stuff I ran into because of some of the other comments. I know you have everything covered.

I have one of those mailbox services where they receive it, send me a scan of the outside. If i want the open it and scan the inside or forward it someplace. Works well. But Bank of America nixed it for my credit card "home address". Bank of America general checking account people didnt care.

The brokerage issue has nothing to do with an address, it is totally dependent on if you have "residency" in another country which you generally can not avoid. But then, I guess if you never told them you were resident of another country maybe its not a probelm .... until it is. You become a resident someplace else when you accept their residency visa and comply with the terms.

Frank, this thread is very interesting, as is your information about South Dakota. I don't live far from its border, and quite frankly, thought the only thing interesting in the state was Mt. Rushmore and the Badlands. 😊 I stand corrected.

Regardless, I think it's great that you are considering this and I wish you luck.

You become a resident someplace else when you accept their residency visa and comply with the terms.

Yes and no. You can be a resident of two different countries. Just because I have an apartment in "Foreign land' doesn't mean I have to give up residency at home. As long as I follow the "foreign land" rules as for length of stay, etc, I'm good.

There are many Americans who live both in the US and in a foreign country. The residency visa just gives them the right to live in that country. They don't have to make it their permanent residence.

There is no law in the US that requires me to tell banks, investment companies, etc that I have a second "home" in another country.

All the US government cares about is my paying taxes.....which I do. If another country requires me to give up residences in other countries, then that's someplace I won't be going.

I will consult with an attorney and CPA who have knowledge regarding this. But my initial research shows I'm on the right path.

I'm not giving up my US address so I won't have a problem with
financial issues or Medicare.

I'm going to use the European home as a "second" one which is
perfectly legal. As long as I stay in the country I choose for the
minimum time required--usually six months--I am free to come and go as
I please

Here is the thing, the six months rule (actually 183 days) is what we in Europe call Revenue practice and while it is the most widely used rule, it is not the only set available to the authorities, especially to target people doing what you have just described. Get yourself some very good legal advice be for committing to anything, because the outcome might not be what you expect.

Thank you for those who have helped but I realize there is no one here who has actually done what I want to do.

What I'm looking for is 100% legal. And if there is one country where it is not, I won't apply there.

I've done research into this and it is possible. I was just trying to find people or websites to find people who have done it and ask questions to those who have actual experience.

Just living in a country does not make you an expert on what that country has to offer.

Many countries actually want people like me....why? I can support myself, I don't need a job, I will have my own health insurance so the country's system doesn't have to pay for me, I will spend money helping the economy and I won't be committing any crimes. I won't be cheating the system, will pay any taxes I have to and will be following the residency time rules. There is no reason why a country's authorities would "target" me. They are looking for people who are living illegally and milking the system.

And since I don't plan to buy property right away, that's one less headache.

France is high up on my list. They offer a long term stay visa that will allow me to stay past the 90 days we normally get. That would be perfect because it would allow me to see if I enjoy it. I can then apply for an extension to that which is similar to a more permanent visa. According to what I've read it takes about 2-3 weeks to get that visa. The only hurdle is getting an address in France.

When I'm ready, I will visit a French consulate and get all the details.

Groceries are not more expensive in Germany either. I am shocked when I shop in the US at how much food costs.

So am I, particularly fresh produce such as fruit and veg. I still baulk at the ribeye steak I almost bought at a Whole Foods in Phoenix, $25! The same size steak in a comparable UK supermarket such as Waitrose would cost around £7 or almost $9.

I don't know where this idea that groceries are cheaper in Europe (Western/Eastern?) than the US comes from but it's certainly not my experience.

The idea that groceries are more expensive in Europe, comes from those who lived in Europe decades ago, when that might have been the case. Mainly meats. Produce has always been cheaper.
Much of Europe has changed over the years. Sort of like those who still believe white tennis shoes and jeans and baseball caps mark you as American. That stopped being the case at least 20-25 years ago, yet still people ask this on the forum or state this is so.

I have to agree about the groceries. I spent October-December mostly in aparthotels so I could cook rather than have to go out to eat all the time.

I was shocked at how cheap things were compared to the US. Germany, Austria and Scotland were way cheaper than the US.

I still baulk at the ribeye steak I almost bought at a Whole Foods in Phoenix, $25! The same size steak in a comparable UK supermarket such as Waitrose would cost around £7 or almost $9.

Many people I know refer to “Whole Foods” as “Whole Paycheck”, so comparing the cost of a steak there to any grocery other than the Whole Foods in London is probably not a fair comparison. I do agree that I don’t find groceries in Europe to be higher.

My understanding is that Ireland offers a retiree visa with certain income requirements.

Many people I know refer to “Whole Foods” as “Whole Paycheck”, so comparing the cost of a steak there to any grocery other than the Whole Foods in London is probably not a fair comparison.

I agree - "Whole Foods" is wildly overpriced and not widely patronized here. TBH we didn't see much difference in costs in the 5 countries we visited in 2023.

Thank you for those who have helped but I realize there is no one here
who has actually done what I want to do.

Since this thread may get some broader attention. Those wanting to do something totally different, that being to retire in Europe as a resident in a EU country, then PM me so we don't mess up Frank II's thread; as I did exactly that a year ago.

Thank you for those who have helped but I realize there is no one here who has actually done what I want to do.

That's strange. I know tons of Americans who are doing exactly what you say. Americans are flooding my city and everywhere in Europe at this time. My husband and I did the half-year thing until we decided to be full time in Europe. Our only difference is that as citizens, we didn't have to go to a visa center to apply for the visa but could come and go freely.

What you are asking about is not so different from what you've been doing for ten years. It's just that you would have a homebase in Europe, as well as the US.

Thank you Bets for getting it. I didn't know that at one point you were part timers.

I'm not closing down my life in the US. I just want to have a "homebase," as you so well put it, in Europe. The ability to stay in Europe to do the things I do now when I return to the US--get things from my storage unit, refill prescriptions, and the like. I now realize my wording was not as good as it should have been.

I would rent a small place that offers public transportation, or walking, for most things and rent a car when and if needed. So no worries about buying property or a car at first.

Once a decision is made, of course I would confer with both legal and accounting experts to know what I have to do.

France and Ireland are high up on the list but I'm also looking at other countries.

Thanks to all who have helpfully contributed especially Mardee and Susan for their website suggestions.

Proof of Income and heath insurance a must/requirement. Supporting history documents and knowing the language (rudimentary) helps or is required. I think its relatively easy to retire here. Required paperwork, but helpful local government (with patience). Some tax issues local and home. Some States have Drivers License agreements with the State. Aufenthaltstitel renewed every four years after getting established works. Fresh bread and a Metzger around the corner. In my area community Brauerei and Farmers markets. I find medical costs reasonable if not cheap compared to US costs. The Alps are a four hour drive away for a holiday. Living in an over 1200 year old town.

I would be very interested in any luck you have finding a country that will let you stay for a few years without claiming you as a resident (in the legal sense). So please keep us updated.

When we lived in Germany groceries were more expensive there than the USA.

I did some research and found that grocery costs vary quite a lot over the USA. Buying groceries in Hawaii, San Francisco or NYC cost more than in lower cost of living areas.

Also, according to what I found groceries are still more expensive in Scandinavia, France, Switzerland and Italy than the USA, while Portugal, Spain, Germany, the UK, Ireland and Eastern Europe are cheaper.

James, I think it boils down to agreements between Countries.

There could be an arrangement. If there is, I'm interested. Not sure if it's an agreement between countries or a commitment by the European country not to claim you. Thats really all thats necessary maybe. Would be great that they let you stay and not try snd tax you. But I live and learn. Not sure what my investment broker will think.

I know someone who has actually done this in France. She has a residence in Atlanta. (I think it’s probably with her kids but she does have an address. ) She actually still owns part of a business in Atlanta. She has gotten a temporary visa for Paris for France and has now been there probably close to a year. I know she’s come back for a couple of family events but pretty much this is where she lives. She does take it year by year. she’s having a wonderful time now. She does speak some French

. I’ve looked at Spain because I speak a little Spanish, but I’m several years away from doing this, so I haven’t spent a lot of time on it simply because it’s not feasible with my current job and family situation. But it’s something I would consider.

Carol. So France let's her stay indefinitely with out "residency" or the tax requirement that comes with residency? Outstanding as I think that's what Frank II is looking for.

Mr E, Bets might know, but i do not think that is correct about France.

Groceries are not more expensive in France than in the US.
Groceries in all of California cost the same as they do in San Francisco.
Depends on where you shop, as another poster said.
“Whole Paycheck” is a very outdated criticism of Whole Foods. Been shopping there for 34 yrs. Prices at WF are almost always lower than Safeway prices.

Carol's acquaintance will be considered a French resident as soon as she stays over the 183 day limit in one calendar year. She may have a one-year visitor visa. She is not supposed to be working, so any business needs to be run by others. She can apply for a one-year residence visa the second year, again working not allowed. That would be a different visa.
She can reapply for one-year visas until her 5th year, at which time she can apply if desired for a 5 or 10 year visa. However, and this is a biggie, you have to pass a French language test at the B1 level for the multi-year visa. See https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F34739?lang=en
France and the US have an interesting tax treaty. You pay first to the US (one of only two countries to tax citizens no matter where they are living), and then you file with the French. In France, we have enough deductions that it doesn't sting. In other countries, like the Netherlands, you pay full taxes to both. Don't worry--France gets its money with the inheritance laws. LOL.

Housing: most newcomers start with a vacation rental and then rent furnished apartments. Those leases are mandatory for one year. Many rent all year round, coming to France for under the 183 days, maintaining US primary residency, but keeping the French apartment all year. It's cheaper than a vacation apartment rental. An unfurnished apartment has a mandatory 3-year lease.

I think you are going to get a lot more info in the FB specialist groups, less speculation, though the generalist groups such as "Retiring in France" aren't the best. You've been to enough countries that you should have a really good idea of the qualities you are looking for. You said you wanted cooler weather; if France, take a look at Lille.

• another option is to buy a cheap place for $40k-$140k and just go 2x90 days. You can just fly with no baggage because your base has everything. No visa problems. No tax problems. Etc.

• Usually the countries are easiest to get visa in are the same countries seem to have economic problems in the EU. Namely Portugal, Spain, Greece Malta. Italy has a retirement visa but it’s not very attractive the more you see the details.

• there are also non-EU European states.

• I believe you still have to pay income tax based on where you would last living in the United States. I think there are five states in the US which have no income tax. So just to establish your mailing before going to Europe.

• A friend was dead set on moving to Portugal, but he recently said they changed the visa requirements and now he’s giving up on Portugal.

  • there are social media groups for Americans and Brits living in various EU countries. That’s the way you get the real dirt on what it’s like after her honeymoon period is over. Often lonely and isolated. Unhappy with services, etc

And every country is going to be different.

To stay in the country where I am, all of the visas require that you be present in the country 90 out of every 180 days .... which equates to more than 180 days a year. If you dont, they will not renew your visa. Visas can be 1, 2 or 3 year and the determining factor is purley subjective on the part of the agent that reviews your request.

There is no checklist that you must complete to qualify for the visa. it is totally subjective. You submit your best case as to why they should give you a visa and then you hope for the best. That visa will say "RESIDENCY" on it.

You will not be permitted to work and you will not be permitted into the national healthcare system. But insurance and evacuation insurance is not terribly expensive and you might have Medicare in the states.

IF you are here 180 days in a year you become subject to the income tax system in the country. You can have 100 other addresses in 50 other countries and you will still be subject to the tax system here.

For consideration in the local income tax is your WORLD WIDE EARNINGS, not just any earnings in your country of residency. That is no different than the way the US works.

There is a treaty with the US that reduces the burden some, but not completely. For instance Social Security checks are not taxed.

The tax rate is low and your savings while living here are high so the net is this is still less expensive than living in Texas (and Texas is a cheap state to live in).

The minute you beocme subject to the income tax of another country, your brokerage firm may want noting to do with you..

There are probably much better deals out there, but I ended up here after decades of visiting. I pretty much knew what i was getting into culturally, socially and cost wise. I cant imagine doing the selection based on the easiest and then hoping I enjoy it. But each to their own.

Cost of Groceries

San Francisco vs San Diego https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+States&city1=San+Diego%2C+CA&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&tracking=getDispatchComparison

San Francisco vs Paris https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&country2=United+States&city1=Paris&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&tracking=getDispatchComparison

Paris vs Budapest https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Hungary&country2=France&city1=Budapest&city2=Paris&tracking=getDispatchComparison

Have to say, all this discussion on the cost of groceries in foreign
lands vs back home is pretty scary.

In my eye, either you have the personal wealth to explore residency
abroad or you don't. This fine-tooth comb approach to what's it going
to cost, just can't be a factor.

Here in Switzerland we are voting next weekend on whether to give people a 13th month state pension payment. If it goes through pensioners will get a double payment every December.

Have to say, all this discussion on the cost of groceries in foreign
lands vs back home is pretty scary.

Naaa, just interesting.

In my eye, either you have the personal wealth to explore residency
abroad or you don't. This fine-tooth comb approach to what's it going
to cost, just can't be a factor.

I dont know that it takes much wealth. My 3 year visa cost about $2000. In fact if you are on a limited income then moving may be a solution for a more comfortable life. Besides groceries those links show the basic cost of living comparisons. But I do believe that most RS types are pretty well off .... i may be a glaring exception.

Frank II is probably the best posistioned among those that post here. And not because of wealth (dont know about that one way or the other) but because his travels give him insight into what to expect. I would suspect most expats dont last long overseas; I think he would.

Based on what periscope wrote "In my eye, either you have the personal wealth to explore residency abroad or you don't" some of the people may surprise all of us.
I've run into middle-class people who have some financial issues so they move to France because they can afford to retire here with a higher quality of life for the money and good healthcare. Once they have a residence visa, they can apply for the healthcare system. I've noticed that these people rent, don't have cars, don't travel around on vacations but stay put and enjoy where they are. Though there's definitely an influx of young retirees who are cashing out of expensive areas in the US moving to my city (and all over Europe), there are also people of modest means. Oh, and George and Amal are a also here, a couple hours away, near Brad :--)))

Here is an interesting comparison. Can you live in Europe on social security alone?

You would need around 8,380.3$ in Los Angeles, CA to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 3,500.0$ (1,258,302.1Ft) in Budapest (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Cost of Living Plus Rent Index to compare the cost of living and assume net earnings (after income tax). You can change the amount in this calculation.

I used the 3,500.0$ number because it is about what most RS people can expect (maybe a few hundred more) in after tax Social Security Payments.

The 8,380.3$ is maybe $120,000 a year pre tax meaning after social security you are going to need another $80,000 per year for the same lifestyle as living on Social Security in Budapest.

I think most of the RS people reading this could live pretty well and have the money for two trips home a year. But is it true? So far yes ............

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Hungary&city1=Budapest&country2=United+States&city2=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&amount=3%2C500.0&displayCurrency=USD

I find it interesting that apparently someone thinks they know the economics of everyone on this forum and thinks they’re all going to get one of the top Social Security payouts. Just a note my mother used to read this forum him and her Social Security payout is $1200. Luckily, she was an incredibly good saver because she has plenty of money to retire anywhere she had ever wanted to. Unfortunately, I’m currently currently spending it all on her care, but that’s what it’s there for.

Hi Frank, Lots of replies and I apologize if anything in my response is duplicative. There was just so much to read!
Anyway, we split our time between US/France. Currently following 90/180 though have looked at 12 month and 6 month visitor visas. We do not intend to ever stay more than 180 days at our French home as in France, once you hit 183 days, you become a tax resident, which we do not want to be. We have an attorney in the US that specializes in working with people who have financial interests in both US/France so have discussed a variety of scenarios with them before we purchased our house. Even though we are there (currently) anywhere from 4 to 5 months, we are not considered a resident. But we do use our house as our European home base. For us, the 90/180 has worked well. In the future we may jump to a 6 month visitor visa as this would fit with our traveling style. I will stress that this is what I know from our experience in France. Each European country will have their own rules. If you have the means, chatting with an attorney who is familiar with both US/your chosen European Country laws would be my best suggestion.

3500$ a month is way beyond what we earn. Seriously! That is like a luxury income.
We have a nice, 2 bedroom apt., good public transportation, eat out fairly often, I have health ins. (250€ per month, with no co-pay, no deductables) take vacations, and buy those cheap groceries. I used to take a trip home to the US every year, but don't have to anymore. My husband has been here 22 years and barely speaks any German at all. He does not have a problem getting around. My German is fluent, but certainly not correct. Has never been a problem and I have had German jobs, like managing a restaurant here and owning a bar.

3500$ a month is way beyond what we earn. Seriously! That is like a
luxury income .....

Ms. Jo, that is sort of my point. I used the max at age 70 retirmment because I guessed it might be more relevant to those who travel to Europe on a regular basis and could develop a desire to consider moving to Europe. The pre-retirment income to qualify is still very much "middle income" America, although most might say at the upper end.

My expenses are a bit higher because I am required to purchase medical insurance and have chosen to maintain my US insurance (Medicare) and Evacuation Insurance (so i can use the Medicare if need to). I also am paying for storage in the US and I have two phones, one US. Yes, the ties are hard to cut. But still my cost of living is easily half of that in the US. But I am living in Eastern Europe and every place and every visa situation will be different. The median salary in the US is about $52,000, in Hungary about $23,000 and that is reflected in prices here.

EDIT: Frank II, i think i have chewed up enough of your thread. My apologies. I will let it rest.

James Blick of Spain Revealed (wonderful YouTube channel) runs a "Move to Spain Masterclass"

International Living: https://signup.internationalliving.com/X1204113?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw17qvBhBrEiwA1rU9w3vME6tKT8EBY4CMhxJrHPqd5yYIa5n5PKpOT7ZHCqwG6aiYAiYoCRoCEGcQAvD_BwE

Hi Frank, Wondered if you had narrowed down your choices so perhaps people who've lived in those countries could help? (And yes, I know we're diverging from the questions you posed, I think it's worth clarifying for others who may be considering moving full-time.)

You will absolutely not lose your US citizenship living abroad!! I lived in Asia Pacific for 19 years, had a foreign address and it was zero problem. Losing state residency is an interesting thought - Why would you WANT state residency?? (If you have kids going off to college, it would mean they'd pay out of state tuition. I can't think of another reason. And not being required to do jury duty?!) When I moved back to CA, all I had was a newly acquired utility bill & I was able to get a drivers license & medical coverage within weeks.

If you live the entire year outside the US, you are still allowed to vote in the Presidential election only. I did, absentee ballot sent to my foreign address.

While there may be investment companies that don't allow it, unless there is a US law that has come into effect in the past 10 years, I had a stock brokerage account for 19 years (post 911, post tighter money laundering rules ) with a major US firm, bought & sold securities and even had a toll free number to call into USA. I seem to recall it was designated as an 'international account'. It was zero hassle & when I came to the US, I would walk into a branch to do whatever business I needed.

Someone mentioned the cheap houses in Italy. I think they were two separate programs. One thing is to buy a house for anywhere from one euro to €20,000. It’s usually in a dying remote town they expect you to remodel it so it’s habitable so it’s probably gonna cost you another 20 to 100,000 to fix it.

The other thing is an actual retirement visa. But there’s enough conditions on it that it makes it kind of a poison pill as far as I’m concerned. First of all, it’s mainly remote southern cities second is that you have to live in Italy more than half years so that you Pay regular income tax in Italy with the reciprocal agreements with the US. And the third thing is is that you have to continue this indefinitely and if you don’t spend more than half of the year in Italy, one year than you’re kicked out of the program, and I don’t think you can reapply again.

In the parts of Europe I’ve been to, food is less expensive and fresher (!) than in the states. Wine and beer are also major bargains!

And comes with fewer choices and variation which is why the stores are substantially smaĺer. And high end foòd products that cost $10 in the US can easily cost $20 in a lot of Europe.

And comes with fewer choices and variation which is why the stores are substantially smaĺer.

That depends on where you are. There are plenty of large supermarkets throughout Europe that are similar in size or larger than many US stores. I've also been to parts of the US where the closest store for miles was no larger than my local corner shop.

JC, thats fair. I tend to be no better than most and over generalize. Something I tell other people not to do. You are good to call me on it. My bad.

I come from a US city where neighborhood grocery stores average about 80,000 sf (7,400 sm) and we have one that is 180,000 sf. (16.700 sm). Nothing remotely like that where I am living now. Yes, we have a couple Hypermarkets out on the fringes of the city, but that different than daily neighborhood shopping. But then I live in a fairly poor city, so that is probably the differnece and why my generalization was so off.

Here is something that the more affluent RS folks might be interested in, Golden Visas: https://www.goldenvisas.com/

I experienced the food quality in US compared to Germany as comparable manifold but from quality and taste as much lower. I cannot imagine to eat that quality longer than 3-4 weeks. Even the quality of our discounters Lidl and Aldi (both) are often much hight - sometimes quality winner in tests of independent organizations.

Here the average fruits and veggies are comparable to the best sold in the US (at a premium).

The beef here doesn't begin to compare with even mid range US quality where I come from. I did find one meat market that sells US beef but at gold standard prices.

Pork seems to be about the same unless you buy the local Mangalica which is amazing, but not cheap.

Chicken, well chicken is chicken.

One thing Americans will note is the handling and storage and display of meat here does not live up to US requirements. But I have yet to get sick or die (let me check ............. nope, still alive).

Here = Hungary
US = Texas

You do not want to lose your US citizenship because you reside too long outside the US.

This simply doesn't happen.

If it did there wouldn’t be all these angry groups of “Accidental Americans” lobbying the US government for changes and trying to find an easy / cheap way to get rid of their U.S. citizenship .

If it did there wouldn’t be all these angry groups of “Accidental
Americans” trying to find an easy / cheap way to get rid of their U.S.
citizenship .

• Of 332 million residents in the US, 303 million are US citizens:
• A total of 5,315 US citizens have renounced their US citizenship in 2023.
• In the fiscal year of 2022, 969,380 people became naturalized citizens in the United States.
• in 2023 2.4 million entered the US illegally, presumably with hopes of some sort of prement status if not citizenship.

Might want to check out Italy's Elective Residency VISA if you have a passive income of at least 32,000 EUR (34,760 USD) per year.
Similarly, Portugal has their D7 VISA which has a minimum passive income amount of 8,460 EUR (9,190 USD) per year.

Otherwise, Germany is probably your best bet but you'd have to work to get residency.

With one exception - that being if you're wealthy enough to acquire citizenship through investment. Most countries have a path to citizenship through investment and the amount, or type of investment, varies from country to country and from year to year.

*Also note that, with the passive income VISAs, you'll receive temporary residency. After 5 years, or whatever the requirement is, when you apply for citizenship / permanent residency.. you'll need to have a handle on the language and be able to satisfy all the standard citizenship requirements.

One would think the US would be shocked at their citizens renouncing their citizenship. Does this happen in other countries? I don't think so. I bet even more people would renounce if it wasn't so expensive and time consuming.

Think about the burden that is on these people who just happen to be American. Many have never lived in the US, yet still are required to file taxes their entire life. No other country in the world does this, except Mozambique I believe. When will the US stop punishing people because of where they were born or because one of their parents was American? Rather unfair, yes? This is taxation without representation. Isn't this what the Revolution was all about? These people have no right to vote for Congress, or the Senate, only the President. Who represents them? Who speaks up for them, for us? No one. No one gives a fig about this.

Wel MsJo we are getting off topic and there is a thread that is on the topic.

I guess in the topic of the thread I could add that if you retire abroad do bring at least $2350 as you may want to renounce your citizenship and that is the cost.

Hahaha yes but I think the cost is getting ready to go back down — that is why some people are suing — because they paid the $2350 and the cost is going to go back down to $450 or something . . .

If the price goes down, that should increase the number from 5,315 a year to maybe 5,317?

Kimberly writes:

We do not intend to ever stay more than 180 days at our French home as
in France, once you hit 183 days, you become a tax resident, which we
do not want to be.

I wonder why? With the tax treaty between the U.S. and France one would have to have an extraordinary income to take a hit on taxes if one were to live in France full time (or nearly full time).

Perhaps that's your case -- I don't know. But being a tax resident of France isn't really a burden, at least not to us nor to many people with modest incomes. It basically allows us to pay U.S. income taxes, a relatively low-tax, low-service location, while enjoying the high service benefits of living in France.

Being resident in another country comes with certain other considerations that have to be weighed. But nothing that can not be dealt with. Taxes aren't the deal breaker.

WaikikiSailor, my residency visa in Hungary wasn't hard or expensive. Just required creative writing.

Hello Frank II: I plan to spend a good amount of my retirement in Europe and therefore applied for Portugal's Golden Visa. PT also offers the D7 visa, which may be what you want. Let me know if you need any help.

Thanks Barkinpark. I'm going to take my time exploring different areas for retirement. If I choose Portugal, I'll let you know.

Barkinpark, Thank you for the idea of the Portugal residency. I looked up the D7

A few of the high points to apply:
In the first two years, you are expected to be in Portugal for at least 16 months. You will need proof of sustainable passive income, You will need proof of accommodation in Portugal, You will need a criminal record certificate from your current country of residence, You will need to prove financial stability through a Portuguese bank account, You will need to prove Monthly passive income of at least €760 (€9,120 per year) is required; and consider an additional 50% for a spouse and 30% for each child, I believe you will need to stay in Portugal during the application process.
Some of the Drawbacks:
In Portugal, you’re considered a tax resident if you stay more than 183 days in a given fiscal year or have a residence there by the end of the year. Once you’re a tax resident, your worldwide income is subject to Portuguese taxes. However, under the Non-Habitual Resident (NHR) regime, you may benefit from reduced tax rates for a period of up to ten years. Tax rates are up to 48%, with NHR offering lower or fixed rates on certain income types.
Advantages:
You’ll have access to the public healthcare system, allowing you to benefit from medical services at reduced costs. (But how good is the system?)

The Portuguese D7 was the sort of regiment I was expecting when I started considering residency in Hungary. As it turns out there is no category in Hungary for retirement. There is a category called “Other Reasons” (literally that).

The requirements were that I have private medical insurance (but the standards were very low), I must have a lease on a residence or own a residence, I must report my income and assets, I must declare that I have no convictions. Other than that, nothing because it is totally subjective and up to the whim of who reads your application.

So, I also submitted, by choice, my medical records from the Hungarian medical clinic I have used for 15 years. A list of my visits over 20 years; letters of recommendation from my Bank, Brokerage Firm, Clients, and 8 Hungarian citizens including personal friends, the manager at my Hungarian Bank, Business Owners that I have interacted with over the years, Past property and tourist tax payments to the Hungarian government.
The company I used to process this had said it was most common to get a 2 year residency, but many only get one year. A 3 year is possible but never happens. They also said noone had ever submitted the book that I submitted. I received a 3-year residency permit. I MUST be in Hungary 90 out of every 180 days, I MUST pay Hungarian income tax on worldwide earnings (16% after exemptions) but there is a tax treaty that minimizes that a bit. I do not have access to free medical care but the social system isn’t that good.

The point is, and FrankII knows this well, that every country is going to be different, sometimes wildly different, and if you have no particular country in mind, just want to live someplace over here, you are going to have to do all of the leg work that FrankII is doing to find the best opportunity. It was easier for me, i knew where i wanted to be ten years ago and started laying the ground work. Still I was a bit shocked the system.

While I'm far from wealthy, I am, by nature, relatively frugal. I've also considered the idea of setting up a home base in Europe from which to explore, yet maintaining a home base in the US. I may eventually like to move abroad permanently, but I tend to make big decisions slowly and carefully so considering a back and forth approach is, in itself, a bold move for me.

I don't know how I overlooked this thread when it first started, but I'm glad it's been resurrected because it's been quite interesting and informative to read this morning. I'm constantly impressed by the experiences of so many of you and I appreciate learning from them!

KRS, i started out slowly 20 years ago. I couldn't imagine just jumping in.

The latest revelation, this is Hungary, but I imagine a lot of the Tax treaties are similar.

BY TREATY, my US income tax was higher than my Hungarian so I owed no tax in Hungary on passive (investment) US income.

I do owe tax in Hungary on Hungarian income. Hungarian income is any active income I earned in Hungary or in the US while resident in Hungary. That includes if I fly home to the US to work. But this income is not taxable in the US except if the tax is lower in Hungary I have to pay the difference in the US.

There may be a situation out there where a country will let you stay beyond the Schengen, other than a student visa, with out making you a tax resident, and if there is, I would love to know which country.

EC, it doesnt have to be one extreme or the other. Like everything else, no two individuals situations are identical and no two countries in Europe are identical for this or any other topic.

I am in Hungary on a 3 year residency visa. I will "probably" get renewed as many times as I want. What to do with the US home? Rent it out so its there when you return ... or sell it. My storage room costs $150 a month.

I presume every tax treaty between the US and other countries can be different, but in my case, I am not double taxed. I just filed my Hungarian tax return for 0.00 ft today.

If there were no tax treaty the Hungarian tax rate is a flat 15%, but my cost of living here is very nearly 50% less than the US. So I would still be ahead. But that is true for me because my income = my expenses.

Playing the Schengen game can get expenisve. I did that for a few years. Three round trip flights a year $$$$, a residence in the US and rental when I was in Europe $$$$. Car insurance on a car I only drove 6 months (or less) a year. The list goes on for quite a while. Didnt make sense for me. Oh, and the Schengen rules, the killer is in the calculations. For that there some excellent calculators on the internet and even a few apps you can download.

I built a spreadsheet. Two columns The cost to live in the US and the cost to live in Hungary while maintaining a minimum footprint in the US to facilitate an easy return if I should decide. The bottom line was half the cost in Hungary, so the cost issue was not a limiting factor in my move.

There are small issues as well where just trying to move to different places without a visa won't work.

Prescription medication. Without living somewhere, I won't be able to get prescriptions written and filled. Perhaps on one here and there, but not a few and over the course of a year.

That's one of the reasons I need to go back to the US every three months. To get my prescriptions filled.

Frank, you are more of a wanderer than I ever was.

For me it was 3 trips a year. 2 weeks in Budapest and a week or 10 days some place new.

So over time I set up doctors in Budapest for prescriptions and routine checkups. Even had a couple of minor surgeries here because it was cheaper than my 20% on my insurance.

Only one drug I take for a heart condition that is not available in Budapest so I hoarded those to get me by. Now I buy them in Austria.

My move here was a very long and slow process; at least 10 years in the making. Buy doing the groundwork, making the connections, working in the system was and continues to be a lot of the fun.

I know what you are looking for, and I suspect the solution will be two solutions. One base in the EU and one base out of the EU stir in a little additional travel outside of the EU and you should be able to spend most of your life in Europe without being a Tax Resident.

Rent then to tourist when you dont use them yourself. I had a similar idea at one point, but my out of EU location sort of ended up in a war and that finalzied my move here.

Bob writes:
"I wonder why? With the tax treaty between the U.S. and France one would have to have an extraordinary income to take a hit on taxes if one were to live in France full time (or nearly full time).
Perhaps that's your case -- I don't know. But being a tax resident of France isn't really a burden, at least not to us nor to many people with modest incomes. It basically allows us to pay U.S. income taxes, a relatively low-tax, low-service location, while enjoying the high service benefits of living in France."

My comment did not imply that taxation is a burden in France rather that it is a consideration, especially since the limit is (I believe) $120k currently. In the US this amount is considered middle income and applies to a whole swath of people. Taxes are complicated and definitely worth discussing with a professional before you move to ensure you understand your tax burden, if any. That is the takeaway from my original comment.

Frank writes:
"Prescription medication. Without living somewhere, I won't be able to get prescriptions written and filled. Perhaps on one here and there, but not a few and over the course of a year."

I'm not sure if this is applicable to your prescription situation however mine is easily filled when in France. I do need to take my US prescription (from my US doctor) to our local, French doctor. For $25 euro, he writes me up a French prescription then I take it to the town pharmacy where it's filled within hours.

Overall, we've been extremely happy with our choice to spend part time in France. I hope you find that place that works as well for you! And I hope you keep us posted on what you decide.

EC I believe that is what it's called (it's been a few years since we made the choice for us.) And, yes, my understanding is that treaty agreements are different with each EU country and, at least in France, it only applies to legal residents or citizens (of which we are neither.) I only speak about my experience and only in regards to France. I think it is super helpful you provided the link for others to peruse should they chose.

As for Tax Treaties, those are different for every EU country and, I
may be mistaken, but I believe they apply only to legal residents or
citizens.

Correct, and most EU countries have treaties. Generally, but probably not always, the resident country will only tax US earnings if the tax in the resident country is higher than the tax in the US (and vice versa). For 2023 earnings I had no tax on US earnings in my country of residency, but did pay full US taxes on those earnings. We dont yet have a tax treaty for 2024 earnings and if one is not adopted, then for 2024 I will have to pay US taxes and taxes on my US earnings in my country of residence. Still, my life here is close to half the cost of living in the US and the local tax rate is 15%, so I come out ahead. But that is only true because I live off a couple of 401(k) accounts where my "earnings" = the draws on my 401(k) to pay my living expenses and not the actual earnings within the 401(k) account. Yes, it is complicated and somethig to learn and consider before making a move. But it isnt necessarily a deal breaker.

As for FrankII's statement about having to return to the US to get his prescriptions. FrankII is among the more savvy on this forum. I am certain he knows he can get the prescriptions in Europe, so I assume he was refering more to a pratical process where he maintains the doctors he knows and prefers. That is an issue. I spent 10 years trying out doctors in Europe until I found a group that I was comfortable with.

Something that did come up is that not every med available in the US is available in every country in Europe. My primary heart medicine is not available in my new home country. But, I found a company here that will bring the meds in from Austria. Still relatively inexpensive. Apparently a prescription in an EU country is good in every EU country. I say "apparenlty" because I imagine that is how they are able to do this.