Retirement Locations

Well as many Brits discovered after BREXIT, the political and economic situation can change dramatically over a short period, so I'd say you'd need to be truly committed to where ever you intend to go, that means learning the local language, regularising your residence status, health insurance etc...

I follow Jenn and Expatsi, as I have considered moving to Europe for years now. They have a very active FB group and forum for many different countries and situations. From what I have seen, they do a good job of balancing the dream of moving abroad with the practical realities that must be faced. There seems to have been a huge uptick in members in the past few months. I love that there are more legitimate companies stepping up to help with the process of such a significant move.

The following is just my reflections based on my move to Hungary, not at all universal.

I cannot imagine selecting a retirement location from online data and one or two weeks there. This is a cultural change, and you don’t learn a culture in a few weeks. One of the advantages to a lot of travel when you are still young (under 45) is that you can begin to create options for later in life by spending the time you need to spend to understand more about a location.

I discovered that my naive belief that most any country would welcome you if you could demonstrate adequate wealth to never be a burden on the society and the willingness to spend all that wealth in their country. Nope, cultures are complicated things, and more than money is important to them. I am going to guess in many European nations getting a residency permit is no walk in the park. Sure not easy where I live.

You stay here for 6 months, and you become theirs. You pay their taxes and US taxes if there is no tax treaty.

Is this permanent or temporary is a big question. Translated; do you put everything in the US in storage or sell it?

The US financial institutions that have managed your retirement account for 20 years may not want to deal with you any longer.

You can vote in US national elections, but not for your county judge. Even having a US driver’s license is somewhat legally in question.

Banking becomes “interesting”.

Healthcare becomes “interesting”. No, its not “better” in Europe in the absolute meaning of the term. Its “different” and even that varies widely by where you are located. Even down to the street you live on.

On the upside, if you move to a major city you save how much a month by not having a car? You do the math. Its frightening.

You can be sent packing any time the government wants to. So permeance? Not like being a citizen.

Why go, well for those doing it on political grounds you might be surprised that the top destinations listed in the article are not exactly “liberal” but that might not matter since you have no vested interest in their culture. A growing portion of Europe is moving to the right. Some is already pretty darn far right. So you better check that before you make the move.

Language, a real advantage if you have it. Depending on where you are and your lifestyle maybe not terrible if you don’t.

I've lived in Germany over 6 years; two seperate periods. I speak some German, enough to get by, not enough I'm comfortable with legal issues. This is a big deal. The idea that you can move from the US to anyplace else without knowing the language at a fairly high level is rife with problems. My Spanish is not good. My French is getting better. Would I consider moving to a location in either country? Not without a lot more effort on my part.

Most people just don't understand how difficult it is to completely change cultures, and don't fool yourself, that's what you have to do. Failure of immigrants to do that is one of the major issues they face, both in the USA and abroad.

So you better check that before you make the move.

I think that's one reason I appreciate that these companies seem to be growing. They help people understand all the ins and outs of moving to a new country, which as we know may be one of the most significant changes one may ever make. From what I've seen (full disclosure, I don't spend that much time on the internet), it seems they educate people a lot on the cultural shift and finding a place where you'd most likely fit as well as the process to make a move.

I cannot imagine selecting a retirement location from online data and one or two weeks there

I have to admit, I just skimmed the article since I am already familiar with Jenn, but I've never gotten the impression this is what they encourage, although it does seem that some groups (LGBTQ would be one example) do feel a sense of urgency for the sake of safety. Perhaps you are more familiar with them though.

Now, I've already spent too much time online this morning, so thanks for the thoughtful discussion and have a great day!

A part of everything may have to do with attitude or concept or expectations. If you are relocating to become a member of the new society until your last breath thats one thing. If you are moving to spend your healthy retirement years in a place you enjoy and can use as a base for all of that exploration you couldnt do when young, well .... thats another thing. And the two things in many ways are as different as night and day.

My fantasy-to be an ex-pat. Somewhere, almost anywhere, but here. Ok, somewhere with great year round weather near the ocean.
Reality-going to be a part-time nomad and be in Europe as much as Schengen time will allow.

Mr. E did a great job laying it out.

I lived in Germany from 1987 until 1991 working for the US Army and loved it. We had the benefit of US Army support and not paying the high Germany taxes, even got refunds from the VAT taxes when we purchase expensive items.

I can't imagine having to pay taxes on my retirement income in virtually any European country. Income taxes in Europe are significantly higher than US income taxes.

Medicare doesn't apply overseas and my health insurance (from my federal service) does cover me, but I would have to pay for medical care up front in Europe and seek reimbursement later.

Personally, living in Europe would not be good since we would be separated from our children and grandchildren.

You can vote in US national elections, but not for your county judge. Even having a US driver’s license is somewhat legally in question.

It depends on the state. As an example, you can become a legal resident of South Dakota with just a PMB. State law has a category called "Full Time Traveler." As long as you don't have a residence anywhere in the US, you can become a resident of South Dakota. Get a driver's license, register to vote in all elections, and have a US address for banking and financial issues. (All perfectly legal.) There is also no state income tax.

Why did South Dakota do this? They initially realized there were a large group of people who lived full time in their RV's but needed an address. Then they realized there were many Americans who lived overseas but wanted a US address. So they came up with this plan. (They collect money via rental of PMB, DL fees, etc but have to offer no services.)

SD recognizes this classification the same as any other state resident. I should know. I'm a "Full Time Traveler" resident of South Dakota. (My DL has my PMB address.)

The only requirement to be in South Dakota is if you have a DL and want to renew it. Then you have to spend one night within one calendar year of your renewal date in the state and show either a hotel or campground receipt.

Full-Time Travelers
To be eligible for a South Dakota Driver License, you must have a
physical residential address located in South Dakota, live full time
in an RV/camper, or travel full time for work (for example, traveling
nurse, truck driver, etc.).

https://dps.sd.gov/driver-licensing/renew-and-duplicate/full-time-travelers
and more here
https://choosesd.com/south-dakota-residency/

I am not saying there is anything wrong with FrankII's scheme. But do check all the details associated with where you live. My credit card company will not accept a mail box for instance. Others apparentldy do. So you might run into that.

There are investment brokers who will not work with those who are residents of countries other than the US. Oh, and they wont take a mail box address either. Dont confuse having a US residency in South Dakota with having a residency in another country. If you live in France legally for 6 months they will claim you as a tax resident and several of the big boy US financial investment companies will have the authority to terminate your accounts. There are companies that will take you in, but its one more thing to deal with.

Then we can talk about telephones, Netflix mail forwarding, social security, medicare, us medical insurance, european medical insurance and health care in general, local drivers license, conditions of residency ..... and the list goes on. I know. I live it.

If you don’t hold a EU passport, moving to retire anywhere has always felt yucky to me as you’re essentially bringing your issues to wherever you move to, you’re messing with the housing, and essentially causing unintentional inflation and strains on existing services. You’re not paying income tax, you’re just using the system because it was “easier” than where you came from. Whether this is Europe, Asia, etc.

I agree with the above comments that people think they can just up and leave and move to a country where you don’t speak the language like it’s any other vacation when that is totally not the case lol..

Personally I’ve spent almost a year and a half in Europe over the last 12 years and I would not feel even remotely comfortable living somewhere for an extended period of time without doing ample research, spending time in rentals etc. in the area I was interested in, and ensuring it suited my needs. You see a lot of people from the UK in southern Portugal who’ve essentially moved there and made little to no attempt to assimilate into the culture because it’s “easy” enough to get by. Again, feels kinda yucky.

You’re not paying income tax,

I live in Europe and I pay Hungarian income tax on all of my US investment earnings.

I agree with the above comments that people think they can just up and
leave and move to a country where you don’t speak the language like
it’s any other vacation when that is totally not the case lol..

I don’t know too many expats here that do speak Hungarian. No matter how hard they try. We survive and keep taking classes. The locals are understanding and they laugh cause they know we will fail.

Personally I’ve spent almost a year and a half in Europe over the last
12 years and I would not feel even remotely comfortable living
somewhere for an extended period of time without doing ample research,
spending time in rentals etc. in the area I was interested in, and
ensuring it suited my needs.

Smart. What I did. Spent time over 20 years visiting before I stayed.

You see a lot of people from the UK in southern Portugal who’ve
essentially moved there and made little to no attempt to assimilate
into the culture because it’s “easy” enough to get by. Again, feels
kinda yucky.

I don’t think they feel yucky?

There is a difference between a mail box (P.O. Box) and a private mail box. A Private Mail Box, which is what is needed in SD, is a business address. The state has deemed them a legal residence. That's what matters to banks, financial institutions, insurance companies, etc.

Don't confuse Texas law with SD. I, along with thousands of people, come under the legal jurisdiction of South Dakota. I am a legal resident of South Dakota and the US government recognizes the address as such.

lol of course someone living there doesn’t care..

It’s like people who move to Thailand to retire, you’re just creating burdens for the actual residents of the country.

You can be sent packing any time the government wants to. So permeance? Not like being a citizen. Why go, well for those doing it on political grounds you might be surprised that the top destinations listed in the article are not exactly “liberal” but that might not matter since you have no vested interest in their culture. A growing portion of Europe is moving to the right. Some is already pretty darn far right. So you better check that before you make the move.

Mr E is spot on with the above comments.

For years I studied the idea - the dream - of living our golden years in Europe, namely France. I decided I am not willing to subject our estates / wealth, if both my wife and I were to die abroad as long term tax residents, to the onerous estate taxes and succession laws of France. We have children to whom we hope to leave a solid financial legacy. After reading extensively and speaking to tax experts, I concluded that if we were childless, had no heirs or family in the US, we might have already taken the plunge, but that is not our situation.

I am not offering tax or financial advice, just recommending you fully understand the laws for living abroad as a tax domicile in any foreign country when it comes to death, forced heirship, and estate succession issues. YMMV...for us, extended trips to Europe will suffice.

FrankII you could be correct. I dint know. Bank of America rejected my PMB in Texas. That's not law, that's BoA policy i presume. But SD might force different policies, don't know. People should check.

In my list of things to be considered is inheritance when you die. If you are a Tax Resident of France ..... even if you have a South Dakota mail box, your probate, even what you own in the US, and the laws that govern it are going to be in France. You had better have a French Will. Some countries have funky inheritance laws and many have heavy taxes. I have a Hungarian Will, and just to cover my A. In case that is contested in the US, a US will that says, see Hungarian Will.

Posted by Frank II

You can vote in US national elections, but not for your county judge.
Even having a US driver’s license is somewhat legally in question.

It depends on the state. As an example, you can become a legal
resident of South Dakota with just a PMB. State law has a category
called "Full Time Traveler." As long as you don't have a residence
anywhere in the US, you can become a resident of South Dakota. Get a
driver's license, register to vote in all elections, and have a US
address for banking and financial issues. (All perfectly legal.) There
is also no state income tax.

Do you get to pick your US congressional district?

geovagriffith wrote:

I can't imagine having to pay taxes on my retirement income in
virtually any European country. Income taxes in Europe are
significantly higher than US income taxes. Medicare doesn't apply
overseas and my health insurance (from my federal service) does cover
me, but I would have to pay for medical care up front in Europe and
seek reimbursement later.

First, not all European countries tax retirement income. France, for example, generally does not. IRA withdrawals, 401(k) withdrawals, private pensions, and Social Security are not taxed -- you still have to pay U.S. taxes, but not French taxes.

And one would be eligible for France's universal medical coverage (Puma -- la protection universelle maladie) after 3 months of regular residence in the country. True, when you emigrate to France you have to show medical insurance coverage roughly equivalent to Puma for one year after entering, but you would become eligible for Puma after 3 months.

Income taxes in Europe are significantly higher than US income taxes.

Depends on the country and how much income you have and the source of that income (retirement plans for example). Where I live, for my income bracket, the taxes are lower. Any statement that begins "In Europe" is generally flawed.

But you need to look at the subject from all perspectives. Its about a lot more than taxes. You have to look at your total cost of living and that involves more than the actual cost of things, it involves life style differeces too. I live here for somewhere between 25 and 35 percent less than my cost of living in the US .... taxes included.

Oh, "retirement" in some countries is a legal status of an individual. That too can become complicated.