Retirement in 2018 -thinking of living in Europe- best expat communities

Before others start banging on about it - do you understand the Schengen visa waiver program limitations? i.e. the 90 in any 180 rule and the requirements for long term visas?

Yes, I've read about that. Also info about private insurance, healthcare, taxes, rent vs buy and how to do it. Central American countries like Costa Rica and Panama sound easier to move to but Europe is calling to me.

If you do a search you will find some websites run by and for expats that could be informative.

When you ask about "budget friendly" expat communities, are you looking for communities of similarly retired expats or communities where the expats are integrated into normal city life but perhaps gather from time to time and are of mixed ages.

Do you want to only speak English or do you perhaps have one or more languages? Do you want to assimilate or remain in a group?

Europe calls you. Which part of Europe calls?

Have you visited any of Europe previously?

Well, you'd better plan on a 2 bedroom apartment because I can name a dozen or so 21 day BOE travel companions who will want to come visit, lol!!

Sounds like fun and I hope desperately it works out for you!

I'l try my best, Pam. Wouldn't you like to explore with me?
Nigel, I'm open to any living situation. English is my first and really only language. I speak very little and horrible French. Still trying to learn. Maybe I'll improve before I retire. As Pam indicated in her reply, I did do the BOE 21 day tour which is the only time I have been in Europe. I would like to be able to travel around Europe while living there. I would like to go to some of the places in France and Germany where my ancestors came from so maybe picking one place to live would not be practical. And I have read about a few places in Spain and France inland and on the Mediterranean that sound inviting and not terribly expensive and have expat communities. So many options.

There's a pretty big English-speaking ex-pat community in the southwest of France spread out in towns and villages: Narbonne, Carcassonne, Toulouse. Just do a google search for "English speakers" and the name of the town for organizations.

I recognize Carcassonne as one of the towns that was a suggestion by one of the websites I looked at for living overseas. I'll check it out. Thanks.

Since you expressed an interest in Germany - are you aware that there are many opportunities there for relatively inexpensive travel via charter flights and bus tours, with or without accommodations included run by large and small travel companies? You can visit all over Europe (and not just Europe). Cities with universities will likely have English speaking clubs and associations. If it were me, I'd get a long-term visa for one country, pick a nice city and stay there for a few months or the entire term. You could always move to a different part of the country to explore a different region. If it's a place with an American consulate, you could contact them with questions about local resources. I'm always envious when I hear how often my friends and relatives travel internationally with ease and economically and not just once a year.

What is your nationality? I presume US or Canada?

First, you must decide in which European State you'd like to live.
If you want to live in Europe for over 90 days, you need to request a long term visa.
There isn't a EU wide visa. You need to request a visa for the State where you intend to settle.
If, for example, you request a visa to live in France or Italy (which are part of the Schengen area) you do not have unlimited access to the other EU countries within Schengen. You are still limited to the 90 day in a 180 rolling period rule when you visit outside of the country for which you gain residency.

Once you have decided where you would like to live, you need to inquire with the individual rules each country has for "elective Residency". There will be financial requirements (assets, proof of health insurance, etc.).
Mediterranean countries (Italy, Spain, Portugal, France) have more relaxed requirements than Northern Europeans.

Check out the Local. They have English language news for each country as well as forums for each country. Here you will find information about living in your country of choice as well as the pitfalls. In Germany, Toytown is the forum that actually began all of this.
https://www.thelocal.de/

Roberto said "If, for example, you request a visa to live in France or Italy (which are part of the Schengen area) you do not have unlimited access to the other EU countries within Schengen. You are still limited to the 90 day in a 180 rolling period rule when you visit outside of the country for which you gain residency."

Roberto, Perhaps I am not understanding. This cannot be policed. I have a Permesso di soggiorno to live in Italy. I assume France also has a residency permit granted upon application once the Visa entry is made. Once in the Schengen with a residency permit, we travel without border controls so passports are not stamped and this movement cannot be monitored. When we go to the U.K., sure there is border control coming-and-going, but we go to France, Switzerland, Austria, etc., without problems. No one would have any idea how long we are out of Italy and in other Schengen countries. I know one cannot get a residency permit in Italy and then decide to live in another country, but travel is not a problem. One must retain a permanent residency "base" in the country granting permission to live.

What Laurel said. I have a permanent residency permit in my passport too. No one controls this when I go over the borders in EU countries. No stamps, no nothin'.

Ms. Jo and Laurel.

Maybe it is difficult to police, but if you are not a citizen of the EU and obtain a long term residency in one Schengen state, you are not allowed unlimited entry to the others. You are still restricted to 90 days per each 6 month period, when outside the country in which you obtained a long term residency.

This is what the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs states:

Non-EU citizens in possession of a National Visa (NV) for sojourns longer than 90 days are required, within eight (8) days from entry into Italy to request a residence permit (permesso di soggiorno) from the Italian authorities, and will be subject to photo/fingerprint registration.
Only this residence permit, which is issued for the reason and for the period indicated on the visa, authorises an alien to sojourn in Italy.
Under Schengen rules, the residence permit issued by the Police (Questura) or the diplomatic or service identity card issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to holders of a long-sojourn visa allows aliens, unless express limitations are imposed, entry to and exit from the Schengen area and to travel without restraint for a period not to exceed 90 days in any 6-month period within territories of the other Schengen States, provided that they hold a valid national passport or equivalent travel document. Nevertheless, all aliens are required to report their presence to the police on the soil of any other Schengen State within 3 working days of entry.

http://www.esteri.it/mae/it/ministero/servizi/stranieri/ingressosoggiornoinitalia/soggiorno_stranieri_in_italia.html

This is some info on the Elective Residency Visa for Italy.
Every country in Europe will have its own process and laws.
http://www.conslosangeles.esteri.it/consolato_losangeles/en/i_servizi/per_chi_si_reca_in_italia/italian-elective-residence-visa.html

I've always wondered why people want to move to an expat enclave where everyone speaks their language. If you move to the Dordogne, for example, you'll feel like you never left home.
Isn't the idea of moving to a foreign country to immerse yourself in its culture, language, etc? Otherwise, you'll just be taking a long vacation...
Many people have the same idea as you do, but are in for a rude surprise, if they haven't prepared to learn the language and customs of the country you want to move to.

It is fairly easy to get a visa, but living in a foreign country, especially if you have no reliable contacts, is just the opposite.
I'd recommend spending more time deciding where you want to live based on culture and language, instead of basing your decision on price alone. Then get busy and learn as much as you can about where you will end up - before you apply for a visa.

PS - I moved to Paris 10 years ago. Wouldn't recommend Paris as a first choice.

Moderators can delete this if they want, but I have to say:

Ah, "expat." That wonderful euphemism for "white immigrant." I wonder what the locals would call such a community of American ex-pats where the residents maintain their language and culture instead of assimilating... "Little LA"? "Americatown"? Would they visit on the weekends around the Fourth of July to pick up gaudy replicas of guns and Statues of Liberty, while eating McDonalds?

Before you go, think about what stereotypes you have about immigrants to the country you currently live in. Are you frustrated because they don't bother to learn the language? Or maybe think they are a drain on social services? That they bring in their foreign ways and demand concessions or try to change the traditional local culture? And just pause to think about how you showing up, parle-ing un petite peut de francais or sprech-ing a bit of deutch, is going to come across as any different.

Hamlet's Shrink

Terrific post. Thanks for a different take on the expat romanticism.

I know of two expats from the US living in Europe, one since 2002, both in EU and Schengen countries, one fluent in the language of the host country, (How did he get like that? He studied and studied), the other fluent in a third language other than English but the language of his host country, he can't speak. One is retired, the other has a decent job working for a computer firm or something like that.

As expats from the States, neither one has any contact with American expats in their respective cities or countries, or wants any, for that matter.

chexbres said "I moved to Paris 10 years ago. Wouldn't recommend Paris as a first choice."

I'm interested to learn why you wouldn't recommend Paris as a first choice. Also, what do you think would be better options?

Paris is a difficult city to "crack".

Most people who live here have gone to school together, work together, have dated and married each other, had children who go to school together, go on group vacations of 3 or more families, etc.

If you don't fit into any of these categories - and you won't - it will be very difficult for anyone to talk to you about anything, and vice-versa. People might invite you once or twice to dinner or drinks, but if you don't speak much (or any) French, and have no common experience with them, that will be the end of it. If you invite them, they might show up, or they might not.
It's fairly easy to make French acquaintances, but very difficult to make real friends that you can count on.
Even the ex-pat community in Paris is pretty insular. Either they are fluent in French and are working here - in which case, they usually hang out with French people - or they don't speak much French and hang out with Anglophones who live in their own bubble, and who are only playing at being French.
I prefer to not mix with ex-pats, because the ones I have met don't want to put forth the effort it takes to try to learn French or assimilate into the culture, and just prefer to live like they are on an extended vacation.
This sounds kind of haughty, and I don't mean it that way - it's just my experience.
I spoke little French when I moved here, but learned as most immigrants do, by keeping the TV on all day long, studying the dictionary and making the effort to speak French even when people would speak English to me.

Finally, you will need an affordable place to live in Paris.
Since short-term rentals will be coming to an end soon, you shouldn't count on them.

You will need to open a French bank account as soon as you arrive, since everything is paid by direct deposit. It is extremely difficult for Americans to find a bank willing to work with them, due to increased FATCA paperwork.

Any real estate agency will gladly take your money, if you want to purchase an apartment, but it will be expensive, and so will the renovations that will be needed. Certain arrondissements are less expensive by m2 than others, but these are not the neighborhoods most first-timers would want to live in.

It is practically impossible for an American to rent an apartment long-term in Paris, no matter how much money he has. Priority is always given to families with children, couples, and roommates - all of whom must earn 4 times the monthly rental fees.

I have only lived in Paris. I did think about living in a small town or the countryside, where it would be much more affordable. I have friends who live in small towns, and it's difficult because you often don't have the option of walking a block to buy fresh bread every day, or the butcher wagon only comes twice a week, or there's no cinema or shoe store. I realized that I would either need a car, or would have to rely on transportation options that might not suit my needs. My friends end up driving miles to shop at the hyper-marches on the auto-route - they might just as well have stayed in California.

Thanks...very accurate description. It fits into everything I had heard of. Relying on your interlocutor to have a certain level of English so that you can communicate is not an effective option, simply is not good enough.

Interesting conversation, though not exactly what you asked. Chexbres makes good points and I can add the experience reported to us by native-French speaking friends on sabbatical last year, one couple in France and the other in Barcelona. What surprised them the most was the lack of invitations even from people with whom they were working. And these are all very sociable people. Also, when my in-laws retired to their Burgundy village from Paris, they were outsiders for the first five years, until they got a dog. It took five years to break the ice. So you need either a dog or child.

Which brings me to the contradiction in this thread: the pooh-poohing of expat communities. Friends from the same country can be wonderful. I have had the same French friends for forty years, but my American girl friends, also married to French men, were important parts of my life in Paris. Now, our French-speaking friends in the States, help bridge the gap for us. In fact, we have always had a very international group of friends because those are the people who understand what it's like to live between two cultures. So expat communities can give you the support you might not get from the native population.

It's one thing to have long-time friends who move to France - that's very valuable - but this is not what I'm talking about.
Moving to an ex-pat community where you know nobody - just because those people share your language and culture, albeit in a foreign country - is not what most people would call an authentic reason to leave home.

There are a few common reasons why one would want to live abroad. Lower cost of living, wanting to start anew (after some life changing scenario), disillusion with the homeland (no, I won't go there!), or simply having a great knowledge and appreciation of a place, etc.

Op mentioned "retirement" and "best budget friendly", without any specific places in mind. After researching and locating a place (or two), it may be prudent to rent there for a few months before making the final decision. And see if you handle the obstacles mentioned by the other posters.

Before investing all the time and money it takes to acquire a long-term visa, I strongly recommend that anyone considering retiring abroad should try to rent a home in the country, town or village that interests them - and stay there for at least 3 months, preferably during the worst possible weather.

Only then will you be able to figure out if you want to make this your permanent home.

I recall seeing on the news (CNN ?) when Obama won the election in 2008 certain US expat communities in Europe celebrated, shown were certain bars/taverns known to be primarily hang-outs for US expats. This was also on the news in Berlin where the American expat community celebrated by going to their mainly expat bars. It may only obvious or natural for expats to associate/hangout with other expats as pointed out above due to like culture and language. The two expats I know living over there have no desire at all to meet/associate with other US expats, I asked about that.

chexbres's last post is good...live for a time during the least desirable months of the year. Also, was it Nigel or Tom, some time back, giving a fair number of daily living details we tend ot take for granted versus being a tourist on holiday?.

Of the two guys I know as expats from Calif., one has definitely been there longer than the other. I believe this year is his 13th, summers and winters, and he intends to stay put.

The post from Hamlets Shrink couldn't be more wrong. Expats are not just white and the description is not just used for Americans. As though no black Americans have ever decided to stay in Germany or France, or Spain, or England for a while. Posts like this are not only annoying, but they give a very incorrect view of what the life is really like when you live in a European country.

Here in Frankfurt, there is a thriving Indian expat community, a lively Indonesian expat community which you can experience every Sunday in the Alte Nikolai church, the very religious Somalian & Ethiopian community crowd St. Katherinas church every Sunday, the Japanese expats have all kinds of events, the Swedish expats have one of the coolest Christmas markets, the English speaking expats from various countries tend to hang out together but when something special like Robert Burns night is being celebrated the Scottish expats come out in style, the French expats have their own school as do the Japanese, the Sri Lankan expats have great festivals.

Most of these people do plan on going back to their home country at some time, though many are here long term. I have been here 30 years, but still plan on returning some day. I am not alone with this plan. Others are here short term with their companies.

Why do we like to get together? Because we help each other through the red tape of living here. Where CAN you buy pumpkin for Thanksgiving? What is the best way to raise bi-lingual kids? Why do those German washers take 1.5 hours? etc. etc. It doesn't mean that we don't have German friends or that we don't speak German or that we don't integrate.

There is also a Japanese community in Düsseldorf, at least one per cent of the total population of the city. Anyone who knows Düsseldorf can attest to that. They too have their own schools there.

There is an idea that people will feel safer and more comfortable if they move to a foreign country where they can live in an "ex-pat enclave". This means a place where you will hear your mother tongue spoken pretty much exclusively, rather than the country's native language - and where you will be surrounded by people who act and think just like you do.
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that an "ex-pat community" can be a valuable tool to have, if you decide you want or need it.
What is distressing is when people make the mistake of moving to a foreign country and assume that they will not have to integrate into its society.

Absolutely correct Jo. And agree about staying through the off-season chexbres. Those charming villages are a whole lot different November to May when the flowers are gone from the window boxes, festivities become private and move inside, days are short in Europe, and the sky is bleak.

In some countries, it is not just up to the individual to choose if they want to integrate or not. Switzerland has just tightened their residency permit rules making integration a requirement.

From LeNews:
The new rules are focused on making it harder for those who show no intention of integrating, to stay. Obtaining and retaining residency permits, including B and C permits, will be determined by the degree of integration.
To be integrated, immigrants will need to show they can make themselves understood in a national language, respect the law, public order, and Switzerland’s constitutional values, such as gender equality, as well as participate in the economic life of the nation.
Well integrated foreigners will be able to get C permits after 10 years. Parliament rejected the possibility of this being automatic. Justice minister Simonetta Sommaruga said that this is consistent with the new rules on obtaining Swiss citizenship.
Anyone not respecting the criteria set out in the text, could risk losing their B permit, or having their C permit downgraded to a B permit, if they show no intention of integrating.
Parliament decided, that long term dependance on state benefits could lead to the loss of a C permit, even after 15 years of residence in Switzerland.
In addition, the National Council accepted, without opposition, a clause requiring foreign preachers, or those teaching foreign culture or languages, to demonstrate an ability to communicate in the national language spoken at their place of work.
Family reunification rules were also tightened. A foreigner with a C permit, will need to have satisfactory accommodation, not be on state benefits, and be able to communicate in the national language of his or her canton of residence, before obtaining permission to bring their family to Switzerland.
One piece of good news for asylum seekers, was the removal of a special 10% tax lasting 10 years, designed to recoup the costs of providing asylum. Some considered this a disincentive to work. Requisition of assets was kept however.

http://lenews.ch/2016/09/22/tough-new-swiss-rules-on-residency-permits-make-it-through-parliament/

Our charming little city is experiencing the first snowfall of the season...

This new requirement in Switzerland reminds me as regards to the language aspect of a program/new clip I saw on French TV , ie TV5, in which the topic dealt with the Syrian migrants having arrived in Canada found it different from what they had envisioned. They ended up in Quebec where one of the requirements, that of learning French, was mandatory for staying. They objected to that, that took the desire out of staying in Quebec...tant pis!

@James E the key word was villages. They do get bleak in the winter unless you are participting in the indoor activities, whereas they can be so charming in summer. You need to stick with towns and cities during the winter. It's really worth going through all four seasons before making a commitment.

Bets, I agree

LacLeman; some countries sell residency. Hungary for instance wants you to purchase an zero interest 5 year 300,000 euro bond and pay 50,000 euros in processing fees. Makes you a "resident" for life. For citizenship you have to be fluent in Hungarian (fat chance). Several countries have these "Golden Visas" with various prices and investment options.

I believe the admin fee for Hungary's golden visa is now €60,000. You snooze, you lose.

I'd look into Porto Portugal, good weather and medical facilities.

Hamlet's post is very thought provoking. My main thought is the flawed logic that the "white immigrants" are not competing with locals for jobs or trying to change the local culture. They may inadvertently change it but they aren't building religious sites and most likely (in my romanticized view) are trying to conform to local norms. Otherwise, it's a really cool analogy. Don't get me wrong, I think open borders are the only solution to our immigration problems but it'll take 100 years before we get there.

I'm not sure if expatriate is a euphemism for white immigrant. Italian immigrants to America who came through Ellis island weren't called expatriates and Italians are white. Many immigrants from Latin America are just as white, but they are also referred as immigrants. Maybe "expatriate" is an euphemism for "immigrant from rich developed country".

Associating with people of the same place you came from is necessary for your sanity. You need to have those relationships because your personal experiences can relate to theirs. My American girlfriend (later wife) living in Florence had tons of American "expatriates" in her circle of friends (and obviously they became my circle of friends). Their relationships helped them cope with the difficulties of living in a foreign culture far away from home. They had similar experiences she could relate to. They filled a vacuum in her personal being that I couldn't fill since I did not grow up in America. I discovered later, when we moved on this side of the Atlantic and when I was the one living far from home, the importance of those relationships for your own sanity. Who could I talk to about the vicissitudes of Fiorentina or Juventus in the European leagues, if not with a fellow Italian or at least a European?

My parents were also migrants. They "migrated" almost 40 miles from the Province of Arezzo to Florence (I guess a great feat for those times). Now that I think about it, most of our family friends in Florence were also "migrants" from the same area they were, often from the same municipality. They also needed those relationships for their sanity. They probably felt like outsiders in Florence. The presence of other "migrants" from the same area provided comfort to them. The comfort they couldn't get from the family members they left behind in their ancestral town.

So I don't resent the many American "expats" I know in Tuscany who hang with one another after decades living there, often speaking English, actually Italish, a concoction of the two languages depending on which word comes first to their mouth, which only expats can understand (similar to the ridiculous Italish I speak with my fellow Italian expats in California) and also don't resent the Mexicans or the Indians who do the exact same around here. They all do it for their own sanity, just like the American expats in Tuscany, or me, "Italian expat in California", or my parents, Aretino expats in Florence.

Since we have ventured off on a tangent, we may have lost our OP, imperatricedeux, who we haven't seen for a week.

We may be talking in an empty room.

@ Roberto...very good and accurate points made. I have heard similar made by French immigrants living in Calif, some became US citizens, others stayed as French citizens. The definition of an "expat" being a "white immigrant" I don't buy at all.

Yes, Nigel, I'm still here. I have used some of the helpful responses and ignored the not so helpful.

To me, expats would be mentors/teachers and a good resource, as Ms Jo. said, to help each other through the red tape of living here and, as Roberto said, living in a foreign culture far away from home. I'm going by myself so I won't have a spouse or a friend to travel with while I'm there.

As I wrote in a previous post, I would like to go to some of the places in France and Germany where my ancestors came from so maybe picking one place to live would not be practical. I found a French and Germany online phone directory. I discovered some people with my father's last name in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region where my 3rd great grandfather lived. I also found my mother's maiden name in Alsace and Germany. I might have to look up some long lost relatives!

Nord Pas-de-Calais region...one of my favourite areas in France, most definitely the region in which I have spent the most time, ie visiting/exploring, etc. in France. Which village/town in this area?

Fred, as you know, I'm headng to that exact area of France for the Vimy Ridge 100'th anniversary in April 2017. Interesting to recently learn that area is also known for 3 centuries of coal mining. Wow. After all my (military related) research I was really surprised to learn of that.

Peter

Fred, what we have is that he was born in La Flamengrie but married and lived in Floyon. Both very small towns now. And from what I have been reading, that area is now referred to Hauts-de-France and includes Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Picardy.

What towns/cities did you spend the most time in?

@ imperaticedeux....The town/city I have spent the most time in Nord Pas-de-Calais is Arras but also have visited a few times Vimy, Neuville St Vlasst, Cambrai, Frevent, Bethune, Douai, and a couple of the beach towns....Berk Plage, La Torquet (sp?). From the Somme River to Arras is where I've focused my attention. If you don't know them already, I suggest you see Amiens, Beauvais (you'll really escaped the tourists there, even French tourists don't go there), Go to the Tourist Office at the Hotel de Ville in Arras, plenty of helpful information brochures, also the war museum at the Hotel de Ville.

@ Peter....In that immediate area where you're going, there is also the French military cemterie at Notre Dame de Lorette....very, grim. plus the war museum at Neuville St Vlaast and the war cemetery there too...just poignant and grim. Re: the coal mining in that region, this part of France was known "Germinal" country, named after the novel by E. Zola, if you are into French literature...some really depressing stuff if you want to read "downers". Studying ww1 and 1940 all these places become familiar...St Pol, Arras, Amiens, Abbeville, Douai, Bethune, Albert, etc.