RESPONDER'S COMMENTS

The problem with answering questions from internet research rather than personal experience is that it can lead to misinformation.

I saw one post saying that "all trains to Switzerland from Paris go through Basel". This is not true. Even if one is headed to the Berner Oberland, one can go from Paris to Interlaken via either Geneve or Lausanne (without passing thru Basel), and it takes only minutes longer. Someone who has a burning desire to visit CERN, or Chateau de Chillon, might like to know how easy that is to do right on their way into Switzerland.

But my real gripe is about people who, when the question is about "X", answer'"Oh, no, you should go to Y!" (because that is where THEY have been.

LOL! I am not a veteran, but are you appointing yourself the "police"

Honestly this is a lost battle and I would let it go.

I'm not appointing myself at all - Simply asking a question!!! Feel that The Traveler's Helpline is meant to HELP traveler's - Not confuse them more - sorry you misunderstood the purpose of the question
And, as far as a "battle" - sorry but i don't feel that this forum is about a "battle"

Greg, I think maybe you are looking for a problem where one doesn't exist, though I do understand your concern. My feeling is that when you post a question, you need understand that you are getting answers from complete strangers and take them with a grain of salt. Just because someone is a veteran poster doesn't mean his/her answer is correct. In fact most of the time, the answers are opinions, so there is no such thing as a correct answer. You have to expect that you will get conflicting answers, and that can be confusing, but it is to be expected. The best answers are from people who explain why they feel a certain way. That helps the poster decide which answer makes the most sense from them.

As to people who answer a question when they've never been to a place, I see no harm in it as long as person explains why they are responding. For example, one time someone asked about tours of the Battle of the Bulge sites in Belgium. I responded that I had never been there, but had found a tour guide who is highly recommended. Sometimes people ask whether they should go to one city or another, and people respond that they have not been to both, but explain what they liked about one of them. Or someone might post that they have been to neither, but the poster should consider the weather at the time of year they are going (like if it's Norway vs. Italy in July, Norway might be the better choice.) That can be helpful. As long as people identify that they have not been to a place, I don't see any problem with it.

This was part of a larger discussion we had here some time ago with the webmaster. In essence, there is no way to control such behavior. Anyway, many times people who have not been somewhere have actually done a lot of research in preparation for a trip of their own and do have good information to share. As far as the professionalism of the site, we are all volunteers here, not acting as travel professionals. Just as you would in real life, you have to decide who to trust for information.

To clarify for James - When a respondent says they haven't been to the area in question BUT - That is what I mean about confusing the posters!!!
Yes - we had the discussion with the Webmaster a long time ago but , for some reason people keep responding when they have not even been to the area. Not helping the traveler. And - I'm not suggesting anyone has to take any one responder's viewpoint as fact. I don't always agree with Frank , for example, but he talks about things he has done and places he has been. That is experience! and can actually be beneficial to the poster versus blabbing on and on when you haven't even been to the country mentioned!!

This is my first post here but I just had to reply, after reading this board for a long time. Sometimes, people are first-time travelers, and would like the experience of someone who just went somewhere for the first time (like, say, driving in Italy. I drove there for my first time a while back and reading experiences of other first-time drivers was a lot more helpful than people who had done it 20 times). In those cases, it's probably "veterans" who aren't really all that helpful at all.

Also, I have seen many discussions recently where people were attacked by "veterans" for merely asking for clarification or even not giving an opinion at all, just posing a simple harmless question that people misread as an opinion. A few years ago this board was never like that. Only recently have I seen personal attacks. That's quite a shame. I have also seen many situations where "veterans" say things like, you have to do this or stay here, without taking into account the person's desires, travel goals, likes/dislikes, etc. That can also be really un-helpful.

Greg, you say you are talking about situations where people actually say they haven't been to the area - don't you have enough faith in the intelligence of other posters to read what people say and absorb the information given accordingly if the person says they've never been there? If someone says "I've never been to London but I would stay at hotel X if I went," I would hope someone would be smart enough to not pay much attention to that, or whatever. Same if the trip was 15 years ago, etc.

The point of this board is for a traveler to gather opinions, do research, and make plans based on his/her own wishes. Obviously it's not OK if people lie and give false advice, but Rick doesn't strike me as the type of guy who wants to restrict the free flow of information and discourse. How about relax a bit and let people's own intelligence decide what advice they heed and what they don't.

Jill - Your example of first time driving in Italy is exactly what I'm referring to - I am Italian and I can tell you categorically that guys like me or Frank or Steve that have driven in Italy through the years know a lot more than a first time driver and therefore, can give better advice!! This isn't about the responders Jill - it's about the information the posters are getting on The Traveler';s Helpline. It is supposed to help them - not confuse them with foolish responses by people that haven't been there or done that. You don't have to do it my way - that's not what I'm saying at all. I just believe the people should be given factual advise by those that have actually experienced the place rather than guessing at what it might be like.
Didn't really think this would bring so much anger out of the woodwork - trying to simplify and help the traveler's which is supposed to be the point of this site - Isn't it Jill????

I agree that it aggravates me, too. When I read an answer posted by someone which begins with "I think" that's a big clue. Also when I know 100% for a fact that their answer is incorrect - it's obvious that they just wanted to offer some information even though they're not sure.

So I only offer advice on things that I know for a fact to be true. No one needs "guesses" when looking for concrete answers.

Tim - That's all I was trying to say and you nailed it!! TY

Tim, reading your comment above, it occurred to me that I often begin a post with, "I think", but it is not based on idle speculation. I've been to Paris, London and the major cities of Italy numerous times and my comments are based on a decent amount of experience or a pretty educated guess. (I don't claim to be in possession of the "truth" however, because things change a lot -- why do you think Rick Steves spends so much time revising his guidebooks every year?). I don't always preface my comments by telling everyone whether I've been to a place or not. But this is a free website -- anyone can post just about anything. Readers should be savvy enough to realize this type of site has all kinds of information -- good and bad, and be prudent about what they accept. If they want a guarantee, they will be better off buying and consulting a good guidebook.

" the professionalism of the site"

This is not a professional forum. People may sometimes give answers that are not accurate but were in fact their personal experience.

No one site should be anyones "bible" on travel. I use and read many different websites and guide books.

I really think most people are trying to be helpful. A poster once told me I was trying to get a "high post count" and I almost fell over laughing. No one gets a gold star here for number of posts,, there is no hierarchy so to speak. I just have more spare time then many people and I am "chatty " in real life and so therefore chatty on forums. Its certainly not an indication of any particular expertness. Thats why I think its great if a new poster adds tips,, they could be GREAT tips,, and they don't need to have been to a place a million times to let me in on a secret gem for sure.

I also don't mind the "I think" answers either. If I ask "should I go to a musical in London" I don't mind someone saying " I haven't been but I've always heard that Wicked is a great one to see" . Whats wrong with that response??

I agree with Lola. Too many posters have never been to where they offer advice on. Some posters seem compelled to answer EVERY question whether they can add to the discussion or not. Notice how many posters have answered more than a thousand or more questions. They have diarrhea of the brain.

Greg, you're assuming that what everyone wants is advice from the most experienced travelers. No. Some of us are newer at this would rather read tales from people who were also new when they did it. It adds relatability. Yes, veteran travelers are great for certain things and can provide very useful information. But for certain questions, I can say from my own experience planning my own trips from these boards that much of the advice given from people who have been to a place only once or twice is often just as helpful if not more helpful, depending on the situation. I was really scared about driving in italy, so for me, reading other experiences from FIRST-time drivers was really helpful because it made me realize I could do it too. There is real value here for people who are not as experienced and I have had wonderful trips based on much of that advice.

As for the "I think" point, it seems there's a difference between how people feel facts and opinions should be treated. Sometimes opinions are clear, I liked this hotel, I didn't, whatever. But sometimes it gets blurred. Is "this place is not safe" or "this place is too expensive" or "this place is a tourist trap" a fact or opinion? I don't think this place can be micromanaged like that with moderators who try to weed out everything.

From all my reading, I haven't seen that many people come out and give factual advice when they haven't been to a place. If someone hasn't been somewhere but posts "I haven't been here but I've heard about X, can someone clear this up for me?" surely that is not a problem, they are just seeking more information based on their research. I mean, is there really that big an epidemic of people giving facts without having been to a place? I haven't seen it much shrug

Again, I go back to the more 'newbie' travelers like me who come here for research. We are intelligent enough to wade through everything here and make our own minds up.

"notice how many posters have answered more then a thousand or more questions. They have diarrhea of the brain"

By that defination there are literally dozens and dozens of posters who should sign off .

Riduculus.

How about they have been on these boards for years and years ,, answering one or two posts every day or so.. hardly diarrhea . Regardless I hardly think numbers of posts signifys either a "good" or "bad" poster, but whether they honestly endeavor to be helpful or if they just post occaissonal negative pokes at other people.

Everyone makes mistakes ..

Everyone.

"Notice how many posters have answered more than a thousand or more questions. They have diarrhea of the brain."
Charles, the volume of answers is no indication as to the quality of the answer. To suggest otherwise, at best, does a disservice to those seeking advice.

While I think (oops, a baddie?!) most of the responders on this site agree w/ RS travel philosophy, each of us has particular interests, likes & dislikes concerning food, lodging, "important" sites to visit, etc. Save or discard whatever info you want. As my grandmother told us when we would grumble about someone doing something differently than we were used to "'Everyone to his own choice', said the old lady as she kissed the cow".

So what is the point of showing the post count? I think it is misleadings.

When I first came here I thought that someone with thousands of posts must be an expert. I learned the hard way that is not so.

I actually like the way the Fodors website does it---no post count, but you can see how long someone has been a member, and you can click on their name to see all their other posts--and evaluate their level of expertise and helpfulness that way.

Re Sasha's: "So what is the point of showing the post count?"

The post count is a built-in feature of this website and changing it would require significant reprogramming of the site, which per the Webmaster, is not going to be done (reprogramming) anytime soon.

The word on the street is that the Webmaster is saving suggestions for changes--so keep 'em coming but don't expect any changes soon.

A few months ago when this topic last came up here, I suggested that the post count be eliminated; but it turned out that most of our community said they wanted the post count to be retained in any future reprogramming of the site.

Sasha I agree, it would be nice to have that feature here on this site. They have it at tripadvisors and I really like and use the feature .

On the other hand, never assume post count means expertise, I never have,, and as I said , I have valued wonderful tips and advice from new posters as well as the oldsters.

In the same way, though, length of time belonging to the board is no indicator of good or bad advice or experience. There are people here who have been here a long time but who rarely post, as well as those who haven't been here as long but give great information.

The only way you can judge the quality of a poster is to look at the range of their posts and have something to compare the advice too. Anyone who has been to Scotland can look at my posts and understand my perspective. I know for example, that Toni offers good advice about Scotland and the UK. I don't always agree with her because my style and preferences are different. I love to drive. She loves trains. But we both love Inverness and think it's an outstanding destination.

Hopefully, the webmaster will someday do the reprogramming that Kent mentions and include this type of feature.

Pam

I believe that if you are using advice from a message board to formulate your travel plans, it is first and foremost up to YOU to filter the advice. If you post a question and someone responds with "well, I've never been here but...", it is up to you to decide whether or not to consider that advice. If you are so good at detecting who has and hasn't been to a region and it concerns you so much, filtering it out shouldn't be that hard.

In fact, the only instance in which I have seen someone complaining about adverse effects of taking someone's advice here -- the advice came from a "veteran" (see one of the recent airfare threads). Maybe I haven't been on the board long enough to see all the other offending posts that the OP is complaining about, but I thought this was a bit ironic.

Greg, what is your definition of a Veteran responder?

I better not answer any of your questions just in case I haven't travelled enough, LOL

Eli - The main purpose of my post was to suggest that the traveler's coming on the site to ask advice are often mislead or confused by responders that have not even been to the location in question. I am not saying that any one person's advice is The Bible - I don't agree all the time with Frank, Norm, Kent, or Steve BUT - the point is - they do know what they are talking about - have been there and done that - whether you think their opinion is the right one is up to you BUT - It is an educated opinion by a veteran traveler and not a responder who simply wants to interject a cute comment!!

hi...non-veteran poster here, and i've gained a lot from reading this board. i also do a lot of research for my own travels, and try to share that with others. i now typically do that--the sharing, that is--in the form of a private message, for fear of being berated by people who think you need to be an 'expert' to respond on this board. i share what i know, and make it known that 'this is all that i know'. if that's not the point of this board, i don't know what is.

Greg, what you said still does not make sense.

I have never been confused by the responses I was given to any of my pre-travel questions. Most people who have been to wherever I wanted to go would come and give feedback. They would hardly give advice based on what "someone" who went there, had told them.

I am confused...

I don't quite get why this is an issue at all. I don't really see people being confused by answers. They might be quite confused when they ask a question, but don't really leave more confused than before.

Most answers here are opinions in some respect, whether they are based on personal experience or not. Yes, usually you expect an answer given by somebody who's btdt to be the "best" one, but that's actually not always the case. I think most readers here have enough brains that they can figure out what answers might be of help to them or which one not. And still make their own decision.

I remember a recent post where the poster asked for opinions about a certain course of action. ONE poster agreed with that course of action, half a dozen or so disagreed and offered alternatives. The OP than thanked everyone and declared to go with the original course of action. Well, we all just offered our opinions and it's up to the OP to decide. S/he's an adult after all.

And I just gave an answer to a question on adult German language classes in Germany - even though I've NEVER taken one nor will I ever take one. I still think my advise can be of help because I occasionally teach German and have friends who teach German and have worked with the Goethe Institute which also supports teacher development. But I guess according to you I only added to the OP's confusion since I've NEVER been directly involved myself.

Beatrix - Here is a specific example for you to digest. Recently a poster asked about staying in Naples - A responder , who has NEVER been to Naples suggested that she shyould stay. WRONG!!! I'm Italian and it gives me no pleasure in saying that Napoli is one of the most dangerous cities in all of Europe and a woman alone should not be staying there - period. Again - advice from someone who was never there , not knowing anything about the dangers in a Mafiosa town !!! Uneducated or emotional advice is not helpful!

Does 56 years of travel constitute an experienced veteran traveler?

I have no idea how anyone would police this. I personally wouldn't find this site as useful if there was some sort of filter. I'd prefer to make my own assessment rather than have an "expert" do the screening for me.

I don't think anyone is particularly shy about correcting what they see as erroneous information. For example, in Greg's example about Naples, how much more we'd all learn from a mistaken response followed by a difference of opinion from a "veteran." If the mistaken response was somehow filtered out in advance, we might miss the lesson we'd learn from seeing the difference of opinion.

Steve nailed it! People's advice and opinions are different dependent on many factors. It's up to the person who asks a question to determine which answers they want to consider, and it usually isn't a difficult decision to make!

What is this all about again? Naples or post counts or veterans or....?

There is an old usenet joke about the character of mail lists. I wish I could find it --- does anyone know what I am talking about?. Almost all forums fall into the same behaviors.

I hope webmaster is paying attention. What we need is a system of badges. I know some of you will say, "Badges, we don't need no stinkin badges!" But maybe underneath our names could be little icons or badges showing our expertise. Pamela and Toni would get little thistle badges for Scotland. Pat would get a fleur de lis for Paris. Some people would like a badge for being an expert on all things Italian.

I get to have the smart aleck icon.

I'm very reluctant to join this discussion (really, don't we all have better things to do--like plan our trips??--than bicker about who's qualified to post in an amateur travel forum??), but I do feel the need to clarify one thing. Greg, you might want to take another look at the Naples post. The poster you spoke of didn't say "Stay in Naples." In MY opinion, it sounded like she was asking for details--why not stay in Naples?

Instead of ridiculing her for being an inexperienced traveler (at least in this one area), wouldn't it be more constructive if someone had EXPLAINED their views, shared PERSONAL stories of crime or scams or pointed her to the book Gomorrah, even? Seems like that would have helped the OP as well, and posts like that would probably improve the overall atmosphere of the Helpline. Are we really to the point where people are sending PMs instead of posting because they're afraid of personal attack...what are we cultivating here?

BTW. I'm a relatively inexperienced traveler, with hopes to change that status. In the meantime, I'd appreciate the same respect as anyone else here as I ask my questions, and answer the few I know. Happy--and mind-opening--travels, everyone.

Greg,

About once a month for the last 4 months I've given someone here very detailed advice about how to get to and from Cesky Krumlov in the Czech Republic, since the usual trains are not good options. A couple were even kind enough to thank me privately.

I have never been there. Never even anywhere within 200 miles of there, really. But in preperation for our trip this summer (which includes much of central Europe, I learned quite a bit.

Should I have kept my mouth shut? Would that have made this site better?

What others have said is true and ought to put an end to the issue; You read every piece of advice with a grain of salt, accumulating opinions from multiple sources, and use your intelligence, experience and intuition to form a concensus. There is no need to ban anyone from giving their opinions, though abusive posters should be shunned.

But Greg, how many questions only get ONE answer? Just because one person says it's quite alright to go to Naples alone (as a female), does not mean the rest of the responders would be in agreement.

For example. I was interested in how I could get from London to Amsterdam. I saw someone had asked this question, AND I saw a couple of responses. The response about a Ferry did not appeal to me, but I still had to keep in mind that this was an option given as the "cheapest" way to get there.

Whether these people had been or not, really does not bother me. They have responses which I can now read about, do my own research and maybe even come back and report what I plan to do.

Randy is spot on!

People here are not stupid. They get advice, continue reading, and eventually make a decision based on other sites, what they got here, and whatever books they are reading as well.

Regarding the Naples post, I believe the one Greg is referring to can be found HERE, but correct me if I'm wrong. If this IS the post being referenced, then I feel Kate (Colorado Springs) nailed it on the head, that the "offending" poster was not saying "Yeah! Stay in Naples, I've read it's cool and I believe everything I read!" but rather asking for clarification on why some people don't think it's a good idea. (Even if this isn't the post being referenced, the responses of some of the people left me perplexed.)

I read this board often and it seems to me that every few months there is a kerfuffle over who should post what, when, why, and how, and then after a few days the dust settles and everyone and everything goes back to the way it was. Just an observation.

And Karen, yes, you get the smart aleck badge. You've earned it, keep up the good work!

This. Is. The. Most. Ironic. Post. Ever.

KX,

I don't quite see your point. Sure, there are people who think you shouldn't take skirts along when packing light. But that's an opinion and it's balanced by many other women who will post in the same thread that they always pack a skirt along because it's the most comfortable option for them.

Reading the luggage thread you mentioned, I couldn't find any condenscending words either. You asked why RS would sell backpacks lacking safety features and you got a reasonable answer: so he can make more money selling additional locks. You asked why people would prefer a backpack over a roller-bag and you got some arguments pro and contra that decision. I'm not quite sure what kind of answers you expected.

What a curious post? Whenever I post on this site and receive a reply, I have never looked at the number of posts made by the person responding.
I have had invaluable advice from this site.
It is one of my main sources of information when I'm planning my holidays in Europe.

I don't post when I don't have anything helpful to offer (even though I may have opinions). There are many places I've visited but don't know the answer to a specific question (best way to see Neuschwanstein as a day trip from Munich), because I didn't visit that way.

I also avoid posting when it will rain on people's parade or when it's a question of personal travel style.

I'm not sure why I posted here. :)

Why would anyone assume that if you start a post with the phrase "I think" it means you don't have personal experience? I've used it and mean that it's my opinion and not the only answer, not that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Another thing that stands out to me is that many of the posters seem to just be waiting to pounce on those asking questions. Often it's because they've misread the question in their rush to be critical. It really puts off those new to the board. If the post Angela pointed out is correct, the OP doesn't say anywhere that she's a single woman staying alone but rather uses "we" as well as "I".Greg, this is not a criticism of you. Rather, it seems that, like the old game of Secrets, as a post gets more responses sometimes replies can get a little off topic. Can't we all just play nice?

"Are we really to the point where people are sending PMs instead of posting because they're afraid of personal attack...what are we cultivating here? "

Yes, that's exactly where this board is.

After visiting the board (and this site in general) for a few months, I joined and asked a question about luggage. I was spoken to as if I were an idiot. I was so taken aback by the response, and the response to my follow-up, that I never wanted to ask anything of this board ever again, much less venture an opinion that ran contrary to the Official Rick Steves Groupie Canon. I've continued to visit occasionally but haven't posted, but I have to admit I couldn't resist this thread. This is NOT a place that welcomes curiosity and open discussion and sharing of knowledge regardless of how learned, as evidenced by the OP. I've seen some of the most outrageous statements by so-called "veterans" here. For example, more than once I've seen a dictate that women absolutely should not pack skirts or dresses as they are a "waste of space." Excuse me? Who died and left you fashion dictator? Ever stop to think that some women PREFER skirts and dresses? Or a woman might like to have one skirt outfit for a nice evening out? If the opinion had been presented as, "I usually wear pants at home so that's all I pack on trips," that would be one thing, but it is presented as an absolute carved-in-stone, you-must-be-insane-if-you-do-otherwise rule. I see that far too much here, and it's a pity.

"I believe that if you are using advice from a message board to formulate your travel plans, it is first and foremost up to YOU to filter the advice."

Absolutely! The Internet is a great resource, but a disadvantage of our new information age is too much information, from too many sources. A lot of that information can be helpful, but at lot of it can be incorrect, too!

I think it's a losing battle trying to control posters' behavior here -- unless they are abusive and have to be banned from the forum, which thankfully, seldom occurs.

This is a really silly post. The issue that I have is when posters are down right nasty with their answers, which really bothers me.
This helpline should be one tool in planning a trip.
One can offer their opinion and you can decide if it
has validity or not. I am a pretty experienced traveler but always learn new things on this board and others. I read books, helplines and talk to people who travel. Professionalism isn't a criteria for factual information but civility is important to me. As for I think, no need to even say that because it is assumed, as you are stating your opinion.
Happy Travels!

I wish everyone would stick to the purpose of this board, which is sharing information about European travel. (Read the posting guidelines.) But I can no more enforce that than others can enforce political correctness or demand that posters provide only accurate, first-hand information. You cannot police the internet. People will say what they please. The webmaster can delete anything that he/she considers inappropriate. And that's all she wrote, folks!

Wales is the most excellent tourist destination on Earth. I've never been there, but take my word for it.

Let me get my hat and coat. Wales it is.

Tourists everywhere who have never been to Wales love it. Cromwell liked it quite a bit, too. He once crushed a Royalist uprising in South Wales.

I usually avoid these email battles like the plague, but I'm going to jump in and incur any wrath that comes my way.

What bothers me the most about the contentious way some posters reply is that they seem to feel like they own the site. It's a forum. It makes me cringe to hear someone say "...on this site WE usually get a lot of these questions...." Someone is feeling their own self-importance a little too much.

I agree with Jill's outlook -- there isn't some formula to convey to people about the right way to visit a place.

Also, some people may say "I think..." because they approach life from the "here is one person's opinion" point of view.

I'll admit I've offered a response to a question about somewhere I've never been. But it was from the standpoint of someone asking a question, with a short amount of time to research, and it was a place I'd been actively researching for an upcoming trip. I don't see anything wrong with offering your research and stating that that's exactly what it is.

This is a blog, and as long as it's open to the public you're going to get a range of answers and level of experience. But there are no one-size-fits-all answers to every question -- just like Jill stated in her point about getting answers from other beginners with fresh perspective.

I have had 4 "major" trips to Europe. At one time I lived in Scotland. Does that make me a "veteran" poster? I hope no one thinks I am an expert. I am willing to give facts when I know the answer, but I am also willing to give opinions when I think they may be helpful. Grog's "question" seems to imply that only experts should respond to questions. After 5 years or so on this board, I do not believe that is what this board is about. It is certainly not what I use it for or learn from it. If Greg wants it that way, perhaps he should set up his own site and PAY professionals to answer questions from we, the great unwashed, but please leave us to fumble along and use our common sense as a filter to the wonderful insights that get posted here.