Relocation decision

Jerry, What an incredible development! You'll be able to do what many others only wish they could do. That's a really difficult question to answer, as many of us have a bias towards a particular country. In my case, that would be Italy, although I very much enjoy the other countries I've visited. As your job "requires travel", part of your decision may depend on which is a more central location to the places you have to travel to. Is there any country that you and your Wife "lean towards"??? I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions on this topic. Good luck with our decision!

Jerry Ken has great ideas on this! It seems to me you will have to be near a major airport as well as centrally located to the places you need to get to for your job. I expect you have taken into consideration the amount of money your company is providing for accommodations. If it is not based on which city you are living in, you may have to price out accommodations in each place. What a wonderful opportunity! Bobbie

It boils down to how much convenient your trips would be, and your personal preferences. France has a better health care system and more predictable bureaucracy. Spain has lower income taxes. Italy has lower housing costs and probably unmatched offer of arts and history within any 100 mile-radius you draw. France has more expensive food. Spain has more expensive good housing (assuming life in a major city near a major airport). Italy has nerve-wrecking bureaucracy and higher fuel and insurance costs. I've lived in Italy a long time (I'm also Italian citizen, fluent speaker etc etc). You must put up with bureaucracy, which sometimes is byzantine and annoying. Then you get a lot of things to do wherever you might live - just take your car and discover villages lost in the map. I'd consider language as well - whichever language you are most fluent already, the easier the transition might be if you go to the country speaking that language.

I am so jealous! Many good thoughts have been mentioned. I'd pick France because I love France and also because it's more central for weekend or other holidays. I think language matters a lot too.

I love them all and when I am in one country I sometimes long for the other, but if I really had to choose where to live...it would be France...well, or maybe Italy and I do love the south of Spain. How long will you be there? If it were three years I would take a year in each.

Congratulations, what a great opportunity. While we all have our favorite places it really has to come down to where you and your wife feel the most comfortable. Which country could you see yourself living in and enjoying the day to day? Which country is easiest for you regarding the language?
If I had to choose one of the three my first choice would be Italy

I would definitely consider practical considerations before which place you prefer to vacation in. Because real life isn't a vacation at all, obviously! Italy may be your favorite place to visit, but if bureaucratic drives you nuts, you wouldn't want to live there. Also agree that whatever language you're most fluent in should affect your decision. Living in a country is a lot easier when you speak the language, and neither of those countries are particularly known for "everyone speaking English" outside of major tourist areas. It's not Germany or Finland where almost everyone does speak English! I would also consider weather. If you loathe the cold, you might be better off in some parts of Spain as opposed to northern France. There's a lot of info on the web about being an expat in all these countries, I'd do research there first. (However if I had to chose, it would probably be Paris or Barcelona!)

What a cool opportunity! When you make a choice, apply to be on "House Hunters International" so the rest of us can live vicariously through you! :) I've only been to France and Italy but I'd choose Italy in an instant. They're having some economic troubles (as is the U.S. and Spain), so maybe consider a smaller city if you have the option, and if you're worried about riots and strikes like those in Athens.

Hi Everyone, Thank you so much for your great thoughts. Let me give you more info and maybe I can muddy the waters a little further. lol!
1.) My preference is Italy, I love the history and I used to be fluent in the language and am sure I can pick it up with total immersion in the culture. 2.) My wife likes France but hates cold weather. 3.) My company provides each of us with a car and pays our moving expenses and housing. 4.) After I retire (in less than 3 years) we plan on staying in Europe. Thanks again!

Everything is a compromise. Since I have always stated that if I have to chose one food group to live with forever, it would be Italian. I would move to Italy in a heartbeat. What is the discussion?

Last we heard you were going to retire soon and asking about Spain: http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/helpline/index.cfm?topic=72719 And sometime before that you were thinkng of Le Marche in Italy. Or was it Apulia? So now, instead of retiring, your company is going to give you a job over there, wherever you choose to live, pay for relocation and a house and two cars for three years. Sweet deal.

Things change, bosses come and go as do opportunities.

Well, you should also consider the cost of insuring those two cars in each of the three countries. I expect it is pretty expensive, especially in Italy. Or will your company pay that too?

Good point but yes it is part of my comp. package. Not to get yelled at but the reason the package is that good is I work for an oil company.

What a great opportunity- and we don't even get to talk about the Schengen Visa! Do you have an area in which to live in each country, and do you have to commute to an office somewhere?
Something of a rain and temperature difference between Paris and Nice, for example.... more details please.... and congrats!

South of France,, then you are within hours drive of Spain, and Italy( as well as Switzerland) Italy seems to be entering a period of real economic upheaval( well no where is doing great, but Italy is really struggling with some issues right now) .. Spain, can't comment on it as I haven't been. France has great health care , food, and transportation options. I prefer smaller cities , so would look at Nimes maybe.

Sarah from Stuttgart made some very important points. I have lived in several places in Europe and agree that living somewhere is not at all the same as vacationing there. My advice is to think about all the humdrum and negative aspects of daily living you must contend with in your present home and then imagine doing these things in the three countries in which you are interested. Then determine which country seems most do-able. Even though you may have a good compensation/moving package from your company, you may have to deal with many things on your own. Consider such things as paying your bills and doing your banking, dealing with plumbers and other household repair personnel, garbage collection, and becoming familiar with local laws and customs. Also consider carefully dental and medical care, since anyone at any age can have an accident or illness. Imagine handling all these things in the different languages in these countries. Living overseas is fantastic and I am glad to have the opportunity, but if you aren't prepared for these practical things it can be a shock and can really put a damper on the experience.

Re-emphasizing Sarah's point... when you live on this side of the pond, many of the things that make a vacation here enjoyable quickly fade into the background, and practical concerns become more paramount. Mainly, how reliable are municipal services, like rubbish disposal? If I need a plumber or electrician, how easy is it to get one? How do I pay my bills (hint, you need a European bank to pay your bills on-line without performing a time-consuming wire transfer)? How easy is it to commute to work? What sort of housing stock is available? How long do I have to wait to make a doctor's appointment? Are local laws transparent and evenly enforced, or is there an unwritten set of informal customs that dictates everyday life? etc... Throw out the travel show image of sophisticated locals enjoying life at a corner cafe. Yes, that may be part of your life, but it will be a very small part. Carefully consider what sort of lifestyle you want to lead and be honest with yourself about what the differences and possible inconveniences you are willing to endure. EDIT: Hmm, looks like DD and I had the exact same point...

I can add nothing to what Tom and D.D. said. Spot on. It is a wonderful opportunity and, for me, the "pros" definitely outweigh the "cons". However it might be a good idea to draw up a list of pros and cons for each location and weight them (for example, health care might be worth 3 points for you and warm weather weighted only 1 point, depending on YOUR priorities.) My wife and I actually did this when making our decision and it gave us a lot of confidence. We stumbled upon the list a few years after the big move and said "yup, we made the right choice."

Thomas - Man, you get to live in a city I would kill to live in! We didn't have a choice for our relocation, but I am grateful that at least Stuttgart is I think fairly "easy" by comparison with some of the places Jerry is considering - and despite that, it's still really difficult. We're a year in and I'm just starting to feel like I've found my legs with regards to dealing with the practicalities. And again I'm lucky because I can call our utilities company or cable company and find someone who can speak English. This may not be true in some of the locations Jerry is considering. (Mental note: practice German more!) No matter where you go, I cannot emphasize enough how stressful, alienating, and difficult being an expat can be and I think you have to mentally prepare yourself for that, or else you're going to go through a lot of shock and disappointment - even depression - that hits a lot of expats once they move. If you think of it as a permanent vacation you're setting yourself up for a big emotional fall. That said, living in Europe is a fantastic opportunity and absolutely wonderful. But keeping a realistic mindset about how difficult it will be at first is really important to preventing the expat blues.

If you have to travel a lot internationally and your wife gets stuck at home without a work permit you really need to take her preferences into consideration and in particular her language skills. My brother travels 90% of his job so they made sure to choose a location within easy reach of a major train station on a high speed line and an international airport and then it was up to his wife to make the final choice. They ended up moving from a very picturesque region in Bavaria to one of the most industrial areas in Germany - and are happier than ever! A decision that is very different from one for a vacation. btw, they are living in Duisburg now, just next door to Duesseldorf which is much better known to tourists but also with much higher cost of living. He uses the Duisburg train station and Duesseldorf airport for his travel. In this city they can afford an apartment in walking distance from the Rhine which would have been out of their reach financially in most other towns.

I hope you take Beatrix's advice to heart, and let your wife choose. Theer must be someplace in southrn France that would be warm enough for her. Way too much bureacracy in Italy for us to live there. We love Spain, and have friends who live there (so their kids can play professional tennis) but I notice today the civil unrest is ramping up a bit (smashing windows at banks in Madrid.)

How can American live in Europe after retirement? I understand that with your job you can get a work visa. What happens after you retire?

@WY: many European countries have retirement visas if you can prove you have sufficient income. Spain, France and Italy are among that. Portugal and Austria as well (don't know about others, I know UK doesn't have such a visa, neither does the Benelux).

Thanks Andre! I am a naturalized US citizen and it was a lengthy process. Thanks for educating me about retirement visa in Europe. Maybe I can one day live in France!

Lyon, France Honestly I have never been but seems like good place. From Lyon I believe there are convenient train connections. Whatever! That's the first Place that popped into my head.

Jeff- Now you're making me homesick! Going to an A's game after getting a proper greasy American breakfast is pretty much my idea of heaven these days because it's so out of reach. I love Europe but Oakland is paradise on earth. And don't get me started about missing dim sum! Apologize for my indulgence, something else potential expats should realize is the grass is always greener! What you took for granted at home will be the subject of oft-discussed fantasies with your spouse. "Remember when..."

Pot, to Kettle; "You're Black."

I started reading the last post without first checking who wrote it...didn't need to LOL! Thanks, James ;-) Jerry, have you checked out any of the ex-pat internet boards? There's lots of mundane, day-in-day-out info on them. I find them interesting to read, even though I have no plans to ever move out of the country...:-(

I'm going to bring up a point that may not sit well with some but I feel is important to say none the less. You may be unintentionally isolating your wife. By that I mean moving to a foreign country where she does not know anyone or have a support system to get her through the time you and her are in Europe but you personally are away on business. Many expats have brought up very valid points on the realitiies of living in Europe and they have some benefits your wife won't have, that is a built in support system. Some of them have children, with children one is going to have the opportunity to meet other parents through school and after school activities, and children themselves are going to keep the spouse busy while the other spouse is away. Others from what I take live or work on or near US military bases and those in and of themselves provide a support system of others of similar age, way of thinking, lifestyle. We all like to take day trips but how many will your wife take till 1, she has done them all or 2 she is just tired of doing them by herself. In an earlier post on this thread it was mentioned you considered retirement, that brings up the situation of leaving behind friends and family she won't see for quite some time. And if you're traveling all week for business are you going to want to go traveling on the weekends? Sure it sounds romantic and fun to get to go live in a foreign country but the reality of it is really something else.

Home is where the heart is. I commend you on having this opportunity. Have friends who have a small home in Italy and a home here in CA. Spend 6 mos. in each. U might downsize here and in this market you could find a steal so you have a backup plan if there is ANY doubt after living in Europe. Given you criteria I'd opt for Barcelona.

Hello Everyone, Again let me thank you for the valuable insights you have shared. Here is more info that might be helpful: 1.) My position in Europe will be the same as in the U. S. 2.) My travel in the U.S. is by company car or plane but in Europe the train is an obvious option 3.) My wife travels with me 99% of the time and that will not change when we move to Europe 4.) Business travel is from 1 - 5 days 4.) My fuel and travel expenses are part of my job; thus company paid, as are internet and cell phone
5.) My company has an excellent relo department to assist with the move Looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks!

So is there a question here? You've already been given lots to think about in terms of practical considerations. No one can name a specific city for you, especially you do not say WHERE your business travel will take you. With the information you have provided, anyplace with a train station will work just fine. Where you YOU (and your wife) like to live?

Sasha, No question, just providing more info. I appreciate all the dialogue and ideas, it has given me much to digest. Thanks!

3.) My wife travels with me 99% of the time and that will not change when we move to Europe That is a rather unusual situation which I haven't seen with any of the expats I know here or in Europe. I'd still recommend to choose a location where both of you would feel comfortable with the language or the prospect of learning it.

Hi Eileen, Yes, I have been on several ex-pat sites and have gotten a lot of good info. Since this is a BIG move for us I am hoping to turn over as many stones as possible to gather more data. Everyone has given me much to digest and more research to do so if there are any more ideas shoot them my way. Thanks again!

I am retired from an American division of a large Italian company, with offices all over Europe. Many of our executives, including the company CEO, live in or outside of Lugano, Switzerland. They live there for "tax reasons." Our company has offices in Lugano, but the executives also have offices in other major Italian cities, driving by car. Air travel is out of Milan Airport, which is only 40 minutes south. Needless to say, Lugano is centrally located and an incredibly beautiful place.