Railfans vs. Auto Enthusiasts

Thankis for the Q Sarah Least favourite - fly, any distance, any price. Next least - a tie - long distance bus... I simply don't and won't Next worst - car rental. Don't like the hassel, the extra charges, the insurance, the fake damage bill, the having to photograph every square mm to prevent fake charges, the full fuel tank rubbish, and all the guff. Done it many times, haven't had to do it for nearly 20 years. Whew... I work on trains from 3 to 7 days a week so long train trips have less thrill for me than they used to. I don't like it when my wife and can't sit together (like next week on the Eurostar), I don't like screaming kids or people bumping into me as they walk down the aisle, or the inability to get off when I want because of reservations. I always use trains at my destination, especially in Italy and Germany, and loads and loads in Switzerland. I could ride Swiss trains all day, and frequently have done. And I love German ICEs, especially ICE-Ts. 5 hours in a TGV is about my limit. I'm happy Gare de Lyon to Nice and Monaco, but Nice to Lille is too much. I almost always drive my personal car to Europe. Through the Channel Tunnel to Calais then onto the Autoroute de Soleil south or up through Belgium to the Netherlands then Germany or Luxembourg, Austria or Switzerland and through Italy. Love it. Downsides? Fuel cost, tolls, long drives can be tedious, the dreaded STAU. I don't worry about ZTLs because I go nowhere near them. That's when the local trains come in handy. Full disclosure: Because I work on the trains its like MAC or Space-A. Next week we head off by train to Rome. Train to London, Eurostar, TGV to Mulhouse, local to Basel, then train via .... to be continued ...

... part 2 ... Spiez and Milano (scored tix for Last Supper!!!) to 3 nights in Venice near the Fish Market, then Frecca to Roma for 4 nights (never enough but its all the leave I could cobble together) and back by train retracing Roma>Milano>Bern (to show my stuffed bears the real ones)>Mulhouse>Paris>Eurostar>London>home. This is really a test to see if we can still do long distance train journeys and save a purse or two of gold relative to the car. I bet we can. No segment is over 4 hours. Last year we set a goal of visiting the Rhine and Fachwerkstrasse (Thanks to Jo and Tim (or was it Tom {hope I haven't got that wrong} and all the others with help) and Luxembourg by car for under €100 per night and we did it. One place was €9 over but it wa more than compensated for by the €48 one. Thanks to Lee for continually bashing cheap places in Germany into my head. I proved it really can be done. So - favourite by a mile - personal car, with trains not a mile behind. Thanks again, Sarah.

Of course this is all a matter of personal preference and opinion - so no need for people to repeat that. I'm interested in why people have preferences and opinions on travel in Europe! I'm a train person, personally. I spent too many years of my life being forced to drive everywhere in the U.S. because on the west coast, trains are not convienent. For instance, taking the Amtrak from Oakland to Los Angeles takes nearly 12 hours, can cost between $60-$90 one way, whereas driving takes a little less than 6 hours, and even with gas will cost less than the cheapest Amtrak ticket. So the advantage is clearly driving. In Europe I find that often in getting from major city to major city, the advantage in price and time is often better for trains (on high-speed lines, anyway). So that's my practical justification. But honestly I just really prefer train travel. I get excited when I hear the SNCF tone. Train travel - ok, particularly on those nice high speed lines (I'm a little less enthusiastic about regional trains although I still prefer them to driving) seems like a remnant of a more elegant time, I enjoy the historical aspect of train travel mixed with the modern advantages of cruising along at nearly 200 mph at times. I love being able to kick back with a book and a glass of wine and not worry about directions or parking or crazy drivers. Of course, train travel is not conducive to visiting all places, but I'm more likely to work my itinerary around what is convenient to me by train than pick places easier accessed by car. Biggest benefit to me: not worrying about rental companies trying to scam you upon return.

Great topic Sarah and I appreciate your honesty as to your choice. I love to drive in Europe, especially Germany. My wife and I travel free style where the only planned stop is usually our last night near an airport. Having a car allows us to go where the wind takes us and stop when we see something interesting. On our last trip over, we landed at Frankfurt and drove to Innsbruck and then on to Italy. Driving to Venice, Milan, and Bologna was not difficult but one must be up to the challenge driving in Italy poses. I am not sure how you can travel as we do on a train unless you get off at every stop and walk around. We spent a week in Paris years ago sans car but I still survived. At some point we may start to take trains but I'm not there yet. I know some are critical of the cost involved but I look at it as part of my trip cost and doing what I enjoy. Currently I find the cost of airfare more off putting than the cost of a car, gas, and parking.
I look forward to other responses and wonder how Lee will weigh in?

Here is my thought process: - if I have time to drive and destination can be reached within a full driving day (11h driving time maximum, without counting breaks), I'll drive because I like it - otherwise, I'll take a day train if it is high-speed, can be reserved and reaches my destination FIRST than a plane door-to-door timewise - if there is no modern train in that route, I'm willing to spend 3-4h MORE in planes to avoid crappy trains altogether - under no circumstance I'd consider night trains or long-distance buses

John,
I can certainly appreciate the appeal of driving when traveling to "discover" places off the beaten path. I'm a consummate planner and researcher so I always know where I'm going before I go - and figure out how to get there by train (or if it's too hard to get there by train, it's off the list) but there is something to be said for the road trip, heading off into the relative unknown. That is how I like to drive around the backcountry of Northern California, but I'm from there, grew up driving the roads there, and even if I go to a "new" place I'm generally at least somewhat familiar with the area. So I see the romantic appeal of doing that in Europe. In reality though, both I and my husband are somewhat high strung and easily stressed out, and car travel in unfamiliar areas, getting lost, worrying about dings on the rental car, etc makes it not quite worth it yet to me. But I'm becoming more comfortable driving here so that may change, although I'm sure in general I will always favor trains. We rented a car to get "off the beaten path" in southern Mexico and while it was a wonderful experience, it was also very stressful. But it was the only way to visit places I wanted to see short of taking a big tour or 2nd class buses (neither of which I wanted to do). The freedom was nice but the stress was not. And the sun just came out so I'm off to the biergarten - by public transit, of course!

While I consider high-speed or fast trains that can be reserved and have seat assignments, I avoid public transportation as much as I personally can. I do not accept for myself (not trying to push it on others) the idea of being rubbing shoulders or butts with strangers in a cramped subway or tram, or travelling standing. That was something good only until college graduation and career start. I get easily stressed out by the idea of being on a claustrophobic bus or train with people invading my usual personal space (e.g., the physical proximity that will normally make me uncomfortable for a stranger).

Andre, out of curiosity, given your dislike of intra-city public transit what do you do in cities where it's just totally impractical to drive, like Paris? Relatedly, most Americans (myself included) tend to hold stereotypes of Europeans enthusiastically using public transit and trains. In reality, the relatively small sample size I've met tend to prefer driving when possible. I find this utterly bizarre - most Americans have no choice but to drive to get around, given the sad state of trains and public transit in most of the U.S. - but even in places where trains and PT is fast and efficient and affordable, even places where gas is nearly $10/gallon, plenty of Europeans prefer cars, too. And yet still hold annoying stereotypes of Americans being in love with cars (as opposed to recognizing that most Americans don't have a choice to use PT) For me, I was largely dependent on less-than-great PT in the bay area because I didn't have a car there. Now I have a car but the PT is so great in Stuttgart that I almost never use it unless I want to go buy a crate of beer and water from the store.

Good topic and insights. True about Oakland-LA on Amtrack, which admittedly I haven't done yet but SF-LA by Greyhound is ca. the same duration. I've done that a few times! I suppose I am in that pragmatist group but still have a strong preference for trains, day or night, but I won't turn down being driven to some of the sights where a car is absolutely necessary, such as seeing battlefield sites, villages, and cemeteries in the Somme area, the villages in the Pas-de-Calais area and its beach towns, the outlying area around Metz, or the outlying towns east of Paris, or Schloss Hardenberg in Neuhardenberg/Brandenburg, etc. In getting to the outlying areas of a major city, out in the "sticks," Germany is better served by public transportation than France. That's been my experience. Why wait 30-40 mins for bus, then walk another 20 mins to get to a museum or historical site, when by car you're there in 10 or so mins? Depending on how desperate I want to get to a site or sites in the same region, esp., if out in the "sticks," I'll consider getting a rental car for practicality and convenience.

You said it Sarah! We here in the U.S. basically have no reasonable choice other than driving. Even to get around town! Here in Texas everything is quite spread out so unless you live right downtown you have no choice but to drive daily. I know people who drive 90 miles to and from work daily and think nothing of it. So for us we totally prefer the train while in Europe. It's a novelty. Much less stressful than renting a car, and finding our way around on unfamiliar roads. We can visit, read, nap, play games or just relax and watch the scenery go by while on the train. We consider it part of the joy of visiting Europe:) As a disclaimer - we usually do rent a car for a few days of a trip to visit out of the way places that don't have great train connections. Although we are not doing that on our upcoming trip we are doing a first for us - biking from town to town around lake Constance with the aid of a few boats. Can't wait to catch our first train in June!!!

Sarah, to answer your secondary question: I'd avoid by all possible means to live in an area where it would be very impracticable to live, like central London. If I were to work in such a place, I'd make sure my residence was in a car-friendly place so that I could have hassle just at one point. I'd not mind using, for instance, park and rides a couple times or so. But to commute by public transportation on a daily basis? No way.

Nigel - Your way of thinking makes practical sense, quite a bit of it. I have taken a lot of trains for pleasure, but not for work, so they still hold that romance for me. Driving your own car is far better than renting one, one of the advantages of living here, but I still find the autobahn slightly terrifying. Mostly on the two-lane sections where you have the slow lane going 80 KPH and the fast lane where everyone is going at least 180 KPH. My car does not have a lot of horsepower and is not meant to be driven at very high speeds, but being behind a line of trucks is infintately frustrating. Trying to pass them is terrifying. I've only driven in France briefly but I do prefer it, as the highways have reasonable speed limits. Your upcoming train trip sounds like a lot of fun (to me). I've been meaning to visit Mulhouse and Basel myself, as they're not too far. Let me know if you want me to bring you a giant package of Gold's Bond Powder. ;) Jill - I've read about your upcoming bike adventure around Lake Constance and it's inspired me to start thinking about doing the same! It sounds like a lovely trip and a nice alternative mode of slow-paced travel. It's been a few years since I've ridden a bike so I don't know if I'd be ready to do a trip as ambitious as yours but it's given me food for thought, as my husband used to be a competitive cyclist and I think we'd both really enjoy seeing the area that way!

Sarah, I drive often in the Autobahnen and absolutely love them! Usually, under good conditions (clear skies, dry surface), I'll keep speeds between 140-150. On very flat stretches like Hannover-Berlin (A3) or A31 right at the Dutch border, I'll drive up to 170. I strongly favor the idea of no speed limits where feasible - Germany has a highway fatality rate per 1 billion driven km lower than that of France and Spain - for instance. The secret is to give a pass sign (turn sign) and just enter the left lane. People (me included) will not slow down by guesswork someone is going to go on the fast lane, but once a car moved there, majority of drivers will just slow down as well.

Andre - sounds nice in theory. Maybe you're driving different routes than me? I always use my signals, but in my experience the minute I move into the left lane - no matter how clear the stretch looked previously - there is suddenly an Audi on my tail and he is NOT slowing down. Tailgating in general is something I hate about the autobahn(en). I was releaved as I reached the metro Frankfurt area - finally, 4-5 lanes like a proper freeway - only to discover that no, the two right lanes are still for the semi trucks and the 3 left lanes I am as likely to be tailgated by speed demons in any of them as I was in the left lane on the 2 lane stretches. I'm honestly starting to think that the solution is to get a car that can handle that high speeds. In that case I might love those roads, too. As it is I have a heavily used 2002 Ford Focus that feels like it's gonna shake apart when I go above 120 KPH.

I generally prefer the train in Europe, but there are some practical reasons for that. I usually travel solo; car rental for one is usually a lot more than taking the train. As another issue, I find that driving in another country works better when you have a second person to help with the navigation. I like being able to sit on the train and listen to music or a book on tape and watch the scenery go by. I find it way more relaxing than driving. And in many cases, the train is just faster. I prefer cities to small towns and thus the majority of my vacation is usually in major cities where a car would just get in the way. I like to stay smack in the center, go out in the evening, have a glass or two of wine with my meal, and walk or take public transit home. I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I know in Sweden the drunk driving laws are extremely strict ... just a Blood Alcohol level of .02. That basically means not even one drink. I lived in Stockholm and London for a little over 3 years and did not have a car the whole time. I lived in flats in the city. I got quite used to it. It was very rare that I wished that I had a car (mostly when I wanted to get stuff for a party or needed to make a trip to Ikea). I wish I lived somewhere in the U.S. where our public transit was as good. I spent a few days in San Francisco last fall and thought the bus/streetcar system worked great. In DC, our metro looks nice on the surface, but if you use it regularly you learn its many imperfections ... it goes few places, when a train breaks down there is no alternate route, and it is pretty expensive. I don't think I'd like driving on the Autobahn; I really don't care about fast driving.

Laura - The San Francisco public transit system (MUNI) which encompasses the buses, light rail/subway, and cable cars sounds like the DC system - great at first but if you have to depend on it regularly it has a lot of problems. The major problem is that it's just really, really slow. BART is great for going quickly over longer distances but only provides access to a small part of San Francisco. So you're stuck relying on MUNI to get anywhere else. I lived in the East Bay which meant I was reliant on AC Transit which makes MUNI look fantastic. Don't get me wrong - the SF Bay Area PT system is still far better than in most places in the U.S. but I'm afraid the PT in German cities (and particularly Stuttgart where it's exceptionally clean, easy to use, and fast) has spoiled me for life. And yet I still know people here - Germans even - who refuse to use it and drive to the city center to bar hop. Amazing.

Bummer to hear that even in places like SF, the transit is weak, but I can see how I as a tourist would get the impression that it is better than it really is. I think a lot of people who come to DC as a tourist think our metro is great because it is pretty clean and easy to use. I thought the transit system in Stockholm was great. The underground was good and trains ran frequently, there were frequent commuter trains, and buses everywhere. I used it everyday and most of my Swedish colleagues did use public transit to work. One thing that was interesting was that employees of the European subsidiary of the company that I worked for got a company car once they reached a certain level as part of their benefit package. They got one even though they did not need it to do the job. My understanding was that this is somewhat typical once people reach a certain level in many European companies.

Does the Muni still have problems with the diamond at Embarcadero? 27 years ago when we lived there it messed up the commute more mornings (and evenings) than I want to remember. Still have problems at West Portal? Poor thing, having to put up with AC. I remember it well, but not fondly. Never been the same since the buses pushed out the streetcars and interurbans in the 1950s.

Nigel - would you believe yes and yes to both your questions? I used to commute to SFSU from the East Bay via PT. It created a deep hatred for the entire system that I will never be free from. But of course AC Transit - which is just a bus system to those who have no idea what we're talking about - is worse. Major cutbacks in service in the last decade have made it far more so. Used to be I could take a Transbay bus basically from my doorstep and be at the Transbay Terminal in SF in 25 minutes. They then changed that sensible route to have it go all the way through downtown Oakland and West Oakland before getting on the freeway, turning it into at least a 45 minute trip. Which only picks up every 30 minutes or so and is often very, very, very late. It's really not surprising that so many locals have turned to unorthodox measures such as "casual carpools" where you jump in a car with a couple of strangers to use the carpool lane across the Bay Bridge. There's not a lack of people who want to use PT in the Bay Area, it's just very slow and unreliable unless you're lucky enough to live next to a BART station on one end and work near one on the other. I know a guy who just started a dream job at Google. The bad news is he lives in Oakland. There's no feasible way to get around via PT to that gig, but he's gonna be spending at least 90 minutes driving/in traffic each way. And this is the area that's considered the best (or second-best) in the nation for PT? Ridiculous. I think I just hijacked my own thread. Back to Europe! And how wonderful our PT is here!

I really do love public transportation but end up driving most of the time, because I love road trips as well. For me, it really is the journey and not the destination. And my journey usually includes few reservations and flexible plans that I can change in a minute if something more interesting comes up. I have done a number of trips where there was not a car involved and they were great too, but typically I love to visit obscure places and don't care if I miss a 'must-see,' because obviously, it was not a 'must see' for me. I am a photographer so perhaps I am looking for different things when I travel. Freedom, spontaneity, flexible plans and lots of exploring the countryside and villages requires a car. I love driving on the autobahn...its all so organized. I especially love the Germany rest stops! Yes, I tend to get lost and stressed sometimes, but I do that when I am taking public transportation as well. Train travel and car travel are two completely different types of travel. I am going to Guatemala in a few weeks and it will all be public transportation or private shuttle, not renting a car there.... If you think the Italians drive crazy you should see the Guatemalans. I will probably even ride the 'chicken bus' there again at the cost of about $.50.
The huge disadvantage of public transportation to me... I am always on someone else's schedule, which I dislike when I am on vacation.

Ah, Andre, don't come to NYC! The subway is really the best way to get around. Buses work in some parts, but the crowded trains underground are the best way to get around. One other mode of transportation in cities is, of course, shank's mare, or your own two feet. ;) All that said, when I am in Scotland, I love having a car. The roads are fun to drive and I can stop anywhere I like to take pictures! Pam

In my next life I'm going to travel with Tk. I've been in the big cities of europe so much that I can get around them as easily as I can get from the bread aisle to the beer department in the Piggly Wiggly (or the Carrefour or Sainsburys for that matter). Europe is easy. It's a break, a no-brainer. But if, for example, you want to go chase dolmens or menhirs for a couple of weeks, you can maybe get to one per day on a twice-a-day bus. With a car you can get to four or five, feed your face in a small village and find somewhere else to spend the night. I probably come across as the car-is-the-only way nut. Nope. It just frosts my bippy when somebody asks what to see when driving from A to B and the chorus responds that you have to take the train instead - - and the squeaky chump singers haven't done both so they have no basis for comparison. Worse yet, they haven't seen what's on the route, period. Herself-the-Minder and I have common interests as well as some that are vastly different. On some trips we may split up for close to a week - - one keeps the car and the other uses mass transit or stays put. I only got to europe twice last year. I drove on the longer trip and didn't on the shorter. However, among some other trips, I managed two for about a month each to China (buses, trains, and farm trucks) and one, also of about a month, to Tajikistan (bike). Lee hasn't added his thoughts yet, but I admire the way he does things. He's a planner and works in a compact area. I refuse to plan. I think I know what's out there, so I just jump in the middle and start poking around. As I've posted previously, sometimes we get off the plane and skip most of the countries we'd been thinking about when we got on. To paraphrase Tk: screw the endpoints, let's go see what's in the middle. For me it usually takes a car to do that in europe.

Despite 10+ trips to Europe, I have never driven there. For my next trip, we seriously considered driving a portion of it. But when I heard the stories of hidden rental car fees, cameras that write tickets and trying to buy gas without a chip and pin card, I just threw up my hands and said we'll take the train. This will mean that we will miss some smaller towns that we wanted to see. Also, I'm not thrilled about driving a stick shift after a ten year hiatus. So I think some people choose the train because there is a higher hurdle for Americans to overcome before they feel comfortable with driving. I've driven in LA, NY and everywhere in between, but somehow the thought of driving in Europe just makes me uneasy. Oh yeah, MUNI sucks, and riding BART prompted me to buy a car.

"So I think some people choose the train because there is a higher hurdle for Americans to overcome before they feel comfortable with driving." That may be true for some. But clearly (judging by many questions asked here about car rental issues) many Americans come to Europe the first time assuming they will drive from place to place since that's what they do at home. When their destinations of choice are something like London-Paris-Rome-Venice, it makes perfect sense to point out that trains might serve them better since cars are of no use in the cities. At the risk of boring Sarah, I will confess that I am neither a rail nut nor am I a driving nut. I am a nut about choosing what works best for my family in a given situation. We have used the rails on many occasions and greatly appreciated that they were available for us to use. We have rented cars multiple times with no trouble at all and have never had a problem finding a place to buy gas with our non-chip card, never had a hidden fee, rarely get lost, and definitely enjoy the freedoms automobiles provide outside of cities. We have also used the occasional bus, boat and ferry to get from place to place. The only wrong choice is to limit yourself to just one or the other.

My take is that folks should do what ever works for them. For those who are freaked out about making their way around a train station with a foreign language, have problems going up and down steps, or are going to small locations, then a car is always going to be better. For those who are freaking out about driving a stick shift, driving on the other side of the road, scared about reading road signs, driving fast or on little winding lanes or who don't want to schlepp a baby seat with them through Europe, then a train is going to be better. It is all about what options fit you and your travel plans best. Personally, I love the trains, and do not enjoy riding in a car at all any more. Considering I drove for many years before moving to Germany, this surprises me. I have always commuted by train to work, and this includes time working at a small Army base outside of Frankfurt. Riding the train is pretty much always faster than driving. I don't have to worry about the staus, cleaning off the snow on my car, or hope that it starts every day in the winter. I get to read, watch the scenery, and arrive at my destination relaxed. This is how I get all my reading done, and I read a lot! For those who want to indulge in the local beverages, a train is a plus. If you have small children, a train can be a plus too, with space to walk around, toilets, and just the novelty of it. Kids like trains, period. If you are arriving from a trans-Atlantic flight and are tired and jet-lagged, I think driving a car on the Autobahn is an extremely dangerous idea. If you have never driven in snow, driving in Germany in the winter might not be a good idea either. So, put me down as non-committed. Use what ever suits you, but do some research to see if the possibilities to do your trip by car might be better than a train, or if a train will fit your plans the best. Cost, efficiency, time, comfort, and points of interest all need to be considered.

It has been interesting to read different responses. I confess, we tend to rent or lease a car for most of our trips. We put cities at the beginning and the end. However, we enjoy spending time more out in the countryside than in a city. (we have never taken a trip that was city A to city B to City C) We tend to stay in a city for 2-3 days (4 max) and then head out into the countryside. Because of this,we enjoy being able to get to places and areas that are not well served by trains. I always build some "free" days into our trip (days where we have several options on what we want to do-spend another day in A, head off a day early to B, or throw in a day at C) I have to add that we really enjoy driving in Europe. The roads are good, the rest stops are plentiful, and overall, it is an enjoyable experience. End of Part one, part 2 below

Part 2 I think some people are hesitant to take the train because it is a new "skill" that they do not practice regularly in the states. There are some fears associated with trying to learn a new system. However, the times I have used the train and public transportation, it has been a very positive experience. By the same token, I hear others talking about not using a car because of concerns about hidden fees, car rental scams, etc,. I have rented a car more times than I care to count, and have never had any of these experiences. (We drove in Italy in 2008, and never got a ticket...we just went the speed limit and stayed out of ZTL zones.) That does not mean I won't ever have a bad experience (either by train or car), but that experience would not stop me from continuing to do something I love. (I compare it to people I have met that say they would not go to Italy because they knew someone who was scammed there. I have never been scammed or had anyone steal from me. But if it happens, I won't let it stop me from going back.) Overall, I think they are both viable options and it really comes down to personal choice. Enjoyed reading all the responses..enlightening

@Pamela: I've been to NYC couple times, and even rode the subway there. I honestly found it hideous, water leaking from the roof, peeling paint, and the subway station I've been to are certainly the dirtiest, uninviting and plan crappy places I've come across in the city. Only the stations at South Ferry and the American Museum of Natural History were acceptable IMO. I also drove there, and honestly don't see what is wrong with that. The second time I traveled there, I stayed in Jersey City (much cheaper hotels for the same comfort) and just drove across the tunnels. Sure, the toll is high, but parking fees in Midtown are no more expensive than those of Amsterdam, Roma and far LESS expensive than those of London. For an occasional traveler, that is doable. ===================================== Something that bothers me depending on how long is my trip is the lack of escalator or lifts. I definitively don't sign up for the "packing light" club, my lemma is "better safe than sorry" when it comes to packing. Not that I dear of being without toothbrush and no way to buy a replacement, but it is more about having clothes for appropriate situations and not willing to play the "it's a foreign place, I can dress out of the norms and nobody will remember me anyway". So I kinda frown upon the idea of myself going to some cultural activity where most people will be using shoes and semi-casual clothing with trainers and jeans. This means more luggage for longer trips, and it is harder to pull 2 suitcases + backpack (with notebook and other essential gadgets) through stairs, long walks, narrow corridors.

I realize what I'm about to say is somewhat off-topic, but I can't resist. I am a "Miss Manners Wannabe" at heart. Regardless of which method people choose, I wish they would be considerate of the rest of us. If you're taking the train, please keep your backpacks and elbows out of my face, keep your voices low and your feet off the seats, try to keep your children entertained and safe and happy, don't block the doors, and take your trash with you when you leave. If you are driving, please educate yourself about the local laws and signs (no matter how many people tell you "it's just like in the US"), don't tailgate or make other unsafe moves, and remember that it's not a racecourse whether there is a speed limit or not. Please don't get off a plane, jet-lagged and exhausted and confused, and jump immediately into a car with no knowledge of the laws, not knowing how to drive a stickshift, possibly with signs in a foreign language, or with traffic on the opposite side of the road from which you are accustomed. Those of us who would like to live to see tomorrow thank you. This has been a public service announcement. We now return you to your discussion.

"Andre - sounds nice in theory. Maybe you're driving different routes than me?" Just like in the US, there are huge regional differences in traffic in Germany. Sarah, I can see why you wouldn't want to drive around Stuttgart. On a good day driving the Autobahn in your area, I would describe my experiences as "frustrating". On a bad day, I'm barely controlling my rage. Likewise, driving on A5 at any point between Frankfurt and Basel gets the blood boiling. A3 between Wiesbaden and Köln always has at least one Stau without any apparent cause. On the other hand, driving through some of the less populated areas of northen Hessen, Niedersachsen, Thüringen, and even Bavaria south of Ulm on A7- you can put the car on cruise control and sail for long stretches without touching the break pedal.

I'm in Texas, Pearland, Texas. We have NO public transportation, no taxi, no bus and no rail. For me, the experience of riding the train is one of the great experiences of Europe. Last May, we flew to Barcelona then traveled by train the rest of the trip. In fact, I planned the trip based on where the train went. I've driven in Ireland but everywhere else use the train.

I think for most people the decision between train and car is driven by thoughts about price and stress. And stress is defined differently by different people. I'm one of the boring pragmatists here. We drive a lot in Europe, mainly because we usually don't have to rent a car and can borrow it for free from family, just paying for gas and parking. Especially when travelling with kids that cuts down on price and stress. But we also drove in Italy (NOT in Rome!) even though we had to pay for the car and it was the most stressful driving ever. But when you spend most of your time in rural Tuscany that's pretty much your only option. Finding an affordable agriturismo with a pool for an extended family of 6 is near to impossible without including the options that do require a car. We did opt for the train during a Christmas vacation in Germany even though it was definitely more expensive than the car option. Even a rental car would have been cheaper because you cannot rely on Sparpreis options with the Bahn for a group of 4 over the holidays! But winter driving in Germany with possible fog, snow and ice was not my idea of a relaxing vacation and the stress factor was definitely lower on the train. And it was one of those snowy winters that had German Autobahns paralyzed with never-ending Staus ....

I live by one of the busiest transit stops in Chicago. I don't have a car. I do not miss it. I'm a train/bus only kind of woman. I can drink more beer that way :)

Ed - weren't you advocating taking a car on a route with incorrect information about the the travel time and departure station of the train you were advising against in favor of driving the other day? and you're NOT the always-drive guy? OK. I think it's better to admit our prejudices. I prefer training to driving but will recommend trains when it makes sense based on time/money. I would not recommend trains to someone who wanted to see the English countryside, for example. That would be silly. D.D. - good advice for us all to keep in mind. I can't imagine doing any serious travel upon the day of arrival, personally. It's nuts. Tom - I guess I just live in an exceptionally crappy area of Germany to drive in, then. I hope to never take the A5 to Frankfurt again. I do enjoy driving the smaller roads around here, though - I don't find them stressful at all. But I don't always have the time. I spent 90 minutes in traffic today for what is usually a 25 minute drive. I'm used to traffic (bay area) but I haven't yet figured out how to predict this traffic so it really sucks. James - good point about control. I also think that sometimes, North American prejudices about train transit being "for the poor unwashed masses" accounts for some of it, and as others have said, just fear of learning a new system (as if driving in a foreign country isn't also involving a lot of new elements? IDK) But to contrast I'd say that us trainers are probably just a wee bit lazy when it comes to our travel. At least I am! And I'd imagine trainers are probably less spontaneously-oriented than drivers.

OK, guys. Sorry to be weighing in so late, but I've been planning a trip for myself, and it applies directly to the question at hand. In May I will fly into Munich. I will go first to Werfen, Austria, to see the castle from Sound of Music, the one on the hill behind Marie when she teaches the kids to sing. From there I will go to Berchtesgaden for a day, then go by bus to Frasdorf, following the Alpenstraße as much a possible. From Frasdorf, I'll go to Zwiesel, in the Bayerischer Wald, then to Prague. From Prague I'll go to Bad Schandau in the Sächsische Schweiz, where I'll spend three days with a side trip to Dresden. I'll return to Munich (Freising) for the flight home. I'll use a Bayern-Ticket twice and a Savings Fare ticket from Bad Schandau to Freising. The rest will be point-point tickets. I've pretty closely price out my transportation cost to be less than $250 (€185). I got one quote from AutoEurope at $479 for a compact for 2 weeks. Fuel estimated by Michelin was another almost $300. So, $775 if I rent a car vs $250 by public transportation. And that's with no CDW coverage at all, so it's not really apples to apples. CDW adds another $230, for over a thousand total. OK, I would much rather relax on a train than have to drive, but with the difference in price, I'd say I'm being pragmatic.

@James... exactly right about being in control.... I want to be on my own schedule most of the time... @Ed... look me up in the next life...there are a few people here I could travel with and some that I wouldn't last an afternoon (they would fire me as a travel partner ).... Andrew( the grandson you helped me with on trip to Normandy) is here and I
read him part of these posts....he laughed. He prefers my travel style too...lucky for both of us.

I wouldn't call us train nuts, but we have never driven in Europe and don't want to. One- hubby hates to rent cars- anywhere. Two- neither of us can drive manual transmission cars. Three- we want to relax and let someone else do the navigating. We enjoy listening to music, drawing, or looking at the scenery on trains. We don't have to pay for petrol(gas) - esp at the rates most Eruopean countries charge (we think gas is expensive in the US- do the math- it's MUCH more over there)or find or pay for expensive parking. And I don't even want to think about driving on the 'other' side of the road!!! I'm Learning Disabled enough- don't throw that at me. We've found tour companies that will take us to the smaller, out the way places that we want to visit on day trips.
Finally- for us it is a nice change. Charlotte doesn't have much public transportation, so we HAVE to drive here. Neither of us enjoys it- we do it becasue we have to. On vacation, we'd rather not.