Question about criticism

Laura, brilliant post!

Americans in general are very thin skinned when it comes to criticism. We hear on the television and radio that this is the 'greatest nation' on earth. The previous administration said that over and over like a mantra. People here grow up reading and hearing this so much, that I think they begin to believe that nothing ails us, and we are better than any other nation.

Then someone points out all that is not well with us, and the "thin skinned" may get very upset because that's not what they heard/read all their lives.

Me thinks Kathleen does not like the "reality" that some might be pointing out to her.

From my point of view, I have a degree in Anthropology. We learn the skill of "cultural relativism" which basically means that we learn to view a culture in its own terms ('judge' them based on their own values and not ours) and not hold them up to our own values. However, that doesn't mean that you stop thinking for yourself and have some personal integrity. For example, if a certain culture beat their kids you wouldn't try to judge them based on your own beliefs about child-rearing but you also wouldn't agree with it, and might even try to do something about it (by drawing attention to the issue, discussion, writing about it, etc.). It's sort of difficult to summarize in a short post.

Personally, I try to leave as much of my own cultural "baggage" at the gate when I leave home (along with certain North American expectations) and be flexible, but I also have certain opinions about politics, religion, etc. It doesn't mean that I give up my values or put them on hold, but through experiencing other cultures firsthand, I learn to hold my values up to the light and really inspect them instead of just accepting what I was taught. That's one of the reasons why I love to travel. These experiences may make me change my mind about things or they may strengthen my convictions, but at least I get to see things from another perspective, think critically, and question my beliefs/views.

There will always be people who will complain and moan about the places their visiting (Americans/Canadians and other nationalities as well), that's just life. However, one must realize that right now, the US is a dominant force/culture and therefore will be criticized and examined much more heavily (think of Great Britain during the age of Empire, France, Rome, any Colonizer/Empire in history). It's just like within the US, there will always be criticism of the President regardless of their Party because they are the ones in charge of the country. Those in power will always be criticized.

It is hard to respond to the question since so much of what you are suggesting is personal perception. What you think is criticism may be an improperly (because of language differences) phrase question or comment. I can say that we have seldom encountered strong criticism of the US. An off comment now and then -- but so what? There are rude and impolite people in all countries and sometimes I may make an comment that can be take wrong. And sometimes the criticism is right on target.

Do you feel that instead of criticizing our ways here in the US that foreigners should realize we have a different way of doing things from what they are used to?<< Yes.

I've traveled to more than 30 foreign countries for both pleasure and work, and spent the equivalent of 2 1/2 years outside the U.S. in the last 20 years. On each and every trip I take pains to live as a temporary local.

I expect the same from those who visit or immigrate to the U.S.

There is a fine line between 'contributing' to the United States melting pot, and 'detracting' from it. I draw the line at negativity. If someone is different and does thing differently, but does so in a positive fashion, being excited about being in the United States, then I consider them 'melting pot people'.

If someone is negative about our traditions and ways, while carrying out their own approach to life in a negative fashion, that is another sitaution entirely. In those cases, I don't bother with being very polite. I calmly, but firmly, tell people who compain about this great nation to stop. "You can think what you want, but when you are around me you will live as an American and shut your mouth." is a phrase I have used many times.

I hear, understand, and share your sentiment.

What are they criticising?

Our healthcare system?

The President?

How many homeless people we have in this "great nation" of ours?

Obesity in general, or how obese our children are today?

Our obesession with sports over academics?

Our "arrogance" when they hear someone saying this is the "greatest nation on earth?"

What exactly are they saying that makes you upset?

I hear a lot of complaints from Americans about how things are done in this country!

Kathleen - What is your purpose in repeating this vague but provocative question? You posted a similar question earlier this month and received 40 responses.

Are you just trying to pick another fight? Please find another forum to do so.

Eli is "right on" with his comments. The Europeans like Obama much better than Bush though. People in Europe must be shaking their heads about our country!

Judy, this "Eli" is a girl, LOL It's pronounced like "Aylee." Sorry for the mixup.

I was wondering why Kathleen was back with a similar post....

Here are a few random thoughts;

1) there are rude people everywhere - try not to generalize

2) many European cultures are more prone to bluntness - not really a bad thing, IMO

3) consider the possibility that something can be learned from the comment/criticism. When I was much younger I was asked by a Brit; "What is behind the obsession Americans have with guns?" Not prepared for the question, I stumbled for an answer and felt awkward. But it was a legitimate question, and I have spent many a constructive moment since trying to find an answer myself.

4) Remember that the USA is a work in progress. It is one of the few places on earth that was a historical blank slate until relatively recently (sorry, native Americans...). I think it is more reasonable to comment on the degree of sucess we are having with our "grand experiment" that it is to comment on traditions many centuries old in Europe.

5) All that said, remember #1 above...

My feeling is that when in Rome do as the Romans do. And when foreigners to the UK talk to me about what they perceive as problems here I listen to them. Maybe I'll learn something and if I think they have got the wrong end of the stick I'll talk to them about it.

To be honest it's impossible to answer your questions without you giving some examples of what your non-Americans colleagues are saying. I have worked with a lot of non-Brits and find they will often grumble about aspects of Britain, but I don't take any offence. I just see it as everyday grumpiness and them trying to get used to a foreign country. Sometimes when I have got irritated it's because they have touched on a sore spot! Sometimes it does take an outsider to make you aware of the problems in your country.

The when in Rome quote usually refers to just trying to fit into a foreign culture and not doing anything stupid. I don't think it means never criticising that culture. In future why not ask your colleagues why they feel what they do and ask them about their own country. Maybe it will help you understand their viewpoint.

I somehow doubt that these civilized, thoughtful and sophisticated replies are going to please Kathleen.

Hi Kathleen,
You mentioned in your previous post about the same topic that you're having trouble with a particular coworker. My advise? Take the high road or you prove her point.

Generalities are dangerous on many levels.

Eli, I agree with your posts. Also, when tv and radio says that we are the greatest nation, they also say "you should be thankful for all of our freedom", like we are the only country that has freedom.

Kathleen,

Admittedly, it does become tedious hearing all that criticism; where I draw the line is whether the criticism is factually or historically accurate or valid. If it isn't, then I dismiss it, since the person is just shooting his mouth off. If the person said that the previous president was the worse president this country has had in the 20th century, whether he wishes to believe it or not, is immaterial, since his assertion is historically inaccurate and therefore is false.
Is the criticism that you hear just based on editorialising or is it factually correct? I don't believe they should "shut up" since we do pride ourselves on having freedom of speech.

Do you find their citicism, in the end result, as having a leg to stand on? Or, can it be dismantled through some critical analysis? If not, they're just blowing air. Maybe I'm just looking for the set-piece battle. However, I do find Eli's points as generally accurate and valid, regardless of one's own views. I wonder if they would exercise their freedom of speech right as freely in their country of origin; some would and some wouldn't dare.

You should act like a guest. A good guest keeps the criticism to themselves.

That goes both ways. I can pretty much ignore criticism from someone visiting our country (as most locals ignore American complaints overseas), but it's best for them also to try and be a good guest.

You should act like a guest. A good guest keeps the criticism to themselves.

That's a great idea (to a point.) It seems to me that Kathleen's problem is with foreigners living in the US rather than visiting, surely once you make a place your home you gain the right to comment on the good and the bad?

For instance my wife is American but has lived in the UK for over 10 years - it's as much her home as it is mine and she has as much a right to an opinion as anyone.

Perhaps their criticisms are justified. Since we don’t know what they are, it’s hard to say. I’m wondering if any of your American colleagues ever engage in similar criticism. Do you hold them to the same standard?

Seems like Kathleen just threw this one out and disappeared! Has she ever asked a travel related question?

If they live here as Peter and someone else mentioned, I don't see why they can't criticise or make a negative remark about this country. I am sure these folks see the good things as well.

Thanks Eli for spotting the obvious.

Kathleen,, you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Europeons and Americans.. Get Over It. You generalize way too much.

Maybe the problem at work IS you?( ps,, as a Canadain I do not get why some Americans have such a hard time hearing anything negative about their country,, for goodness sake ,, every place has something to complain about!, Canada can be very cold, our leaders can be dolts, are laws sometimes suck, we do watch too much hockey, and consider a fleece jacket dressy etc. My friend lives in a small town and we all tease her about how everyone drives a pick up truck with a rifle rack in it, its a sterotype of course,, but we can laugh about it.. start learning to laugh a bit !

Now,, do you have any questions or advise about travel to or experiencing Europe??

Pat, I am sorry, but you are way off base. It is not possible to watch too much hockey. :) Also, I would love to live in a country that considers fleece jackets to be formal wear.

LOL @ Carroll :)

2) many European cultures are more prone to bluntness - not really a bad thing, IMO

This is a point I can certainly sympathize with. Especially here in Canada I've been told more than once that I was rude - when all I did in my eyes (and in those of many other Germans) was showing the virtues of openess and honesty.

And sometimes I really do wonder why do they invite foreigners to live amongst them if they don't care to listen to some new perspectives occasionally? Do you have to equal a new viewpoint with criticism? Why couldn't it be seen as an incentive to do more with "your work in progress"? Nobody is perfect and no country either.

I remember being a student at the university in Calgary and listening to a guest speaker from the Netherlands who was invited by the Canadian university to speak about European perspectives on environmental sustainable urban designs. I remember some very excited discussions amongst the students afterwards who really enjoyed the talk. But when I mentioned that I wished Canada would act a bit more like the Dutch another faculty professor (btw American, not a Canadian) overheard me and told me to "go back home if you don't like it here". Hmmm, why then did he invite that Dutch professor when he didn't want his students to listen and eventually act on the lecture????

What does all this have to do with travel? Kathleen, maybe your co-workers just do it to annoy you. Or maybe they are bitter people who like to complain. Perhaps you are trying to get things stirred up here. At any rate, I choose to travel because it is the best way for me to learn about the world and my place in it. Travel helps me to see my own country more objectively. There is much that is wonderful about America and much that is awful (read Howard Zinn if you don't believe it). My best advice is to hold your head up and not let these people bother you.

Sorry,, know this is a bit off topic,, but , I did cringe a bit ( at first) when I was watching the opening ceromies of the Oylimpics,, I mean,, poor Wayne,, they put him in the back of a PICK -UP truck in the pouring rain,, but then I finally saw it for what it was,, HILARIOUS ,, and very Canadain,, ( we just do not do glamour and glitz the way many countries do.. All the drunks in their fleece jackets and toques running along side of the truck to take photos had me rolling on the floor,, gosh we are so darn casual..

Regarding European bluntness or openness, I have no problems with that, it's better than being wishy-washy. Of course, if you display your directness or openness, then "they" will accuse you of being singularily deficient in tack.

As a native-born Californian and American, I can be laudatory and also critical of the US, very much so in both cases. I do see Americans are generally thin-skinned when the criticisms come from foreigners. BUT, do these foreigners know what they are talking about given the American context. If not, I just dismiss it.

BTW, Howard Zinn has an axe to grind in his works,
when it comes to the good, bad, and the ugly in the US.

I understand the annoyance of having someone from another country constantly criticizing ours. However, to me it's more that it's so rude to criticize one's host than anything else. When I travel I see lots of things to criticize - if I wanted to make that my focus. I'd rather enjoy the differences. I was at Edinburgh Castle one day and heard a British woman telling a group that the United States was so violent that you couldn't walk on the streets without risking getting murdered. This was shortly after I had taken a bus tour of the city and passed through a neighborhood full of Islam extremist "Death to everyone but us" signs. We tend to idealize our own countries and focus on the faults, which are sometimes just differences, of others. Also, we air our dirty laundry in this country for everyone to see. Not only do we air it, we rub it in the world's face. We'll go on forever about a politician's affair but after the first week or so, things like the continuing humanitarian efforts in Haiti are no longer newsworthy. Which should we as Americans focus on? As a Southerner who has spent a lifetime listening to people list all the things wrong with the South, I've learned to listen and then ask "Why are you here? Why would you stay in a place where you're so unhappy?" Why not ask those questions instead of being so annoyed? It's amazing how many positive comments you'll get. And if not, maybe you're just dealing with a very unhappy person.

Teena,, this is always something that interests me,, and its something you hear Americans in paritcular say.

"why are you here if you don't like ---"
Or
"if you don't like so and so why don't you leave??"

Why can't people NOT like something about their country, or critisize something about their own country,, without others resorting to the "love it or leave it" line. I hate that line. Its so " we won't change we are already perfect" sounding to me.

Change never happens without someone saying "hey, I don't like this" and why is change bad in all situations?

I think the perfect retort to complaints should be, " fi you don't like it, what can you do to change it,, what are you doing?"

I like that retort to complaining. "If you don't like it, then do something about it."

That applies to locals, the residents in whatever country you choose.

Guests in that country should behave themselves as guests. Hosts should feel free to remind those guests, politely but firmly, that they are guests. Residents should likewise feel free to remind other residents, politely but firmly, that this nation is theirs as well and if they want to effect positive change they should get to work more and talk less.

Some very well thought out posts here.

Pat makes a great point. Gandhi didn't particulary like the injustices in India, but he didn't just leave (and why would he). He worked to change a nation…maybe the world. One could say the same of MLK here in the U.S. No offense intended to anyone here, but the nationalistic "love it or leave it" line is absurd.

Pat, the line "if you don't like it, leave," is very American, and I detest it.

I remember saying to someone in my city that I could not wait to see the back of Bush, and she said that if I didn't like the way he was running the country I could leave!

That seems to be the answer here, and I have seen it on several boards, read it in the newspaper, and of course heard it on television. I don't know what the problem is, but folks, we are not a perfect country. We have the good and the bad, like everywhere else.

But, Eli, you can now go back to that person, who is probably moaning about Obama, and say: "If you don't like the way he's running the country, why not leave?"

For every one complaint, you will find 10,000 compliments from foreigners living in the US. I was talking to my contractor a few days ago (from the Ukraine) and he said he tried to make a living in Western-Europe, but he didn't feel accepted until he finally reached the US. I'll leave out the gory details of his experiences to avoid more forum controversy, but his story made me proud to live in a country of endless opportunity, no matter what your background is.

For some, the answer on where to go if we were to leave is easy…it’s Canada (maybe Denmark)! I wonder where this person asking Eli to leave would go if Eli turned the tables?

Frank, good one! I hear the complaints and never thought to give them back their answer.

Canada was usually where they would say we should go, or to Mexico. Silly people.

Now I am wondering if we're all giving Kathleen some evening reading, and if she is enjoying herself.

Jim had a good retort,, "if you don't like it , change it" ( but lets be honest,, most of us are a tad complacent about something we don't like unless it directly affects us).

Eli,, I think we did a thread once on " where would you live",, if you relocated to another country,, it was very interesting.

Honestly , I think most of us Canadains and you Americans would not like to leave our countries, as we do have it pretty good,, but, if I was going to have to leave..I know social programs and climate would be two of my considerations( so maybe southern England or France,, or perhaps even Sweden , (its rather cold there, but like the standard of living/education/healthcare there)

They are usually right. I've lived here since I was born here and I crap all over this country. More to the point the deserving citizens. I don't love it and I intend to leave it.

I think that it is has become increasingly en vogue to disparage the US. It's kind of like the immature peer pressure that we all felt to wear the right clothes in junior high.

It's true that it is ridiculous to think that everyone needs to agree in order to stay; our country was founded upon dissent. There are, however, respectful and grown up ways to do that. Unfortunately most of what we see on television isn't a good example of this. That is what Europeans see of us though and, I believe, why they respond and vocalize their opinions about the US in a like manner. I could be wrong. Who knows; I am not European.

To Josh and those who share your opinions of actually wanting to leave: do it....or get off the pot. Their are millions of people dying to live in your shoes.

There are American "colonies" in various European cities...these ex-pats who live in Paris, Berlin, London, Prague by choice, not just by job assignment. I've seen them in Berlin and Paris for sure during my trips.

Whether you were pro- or anti-Bush is immaterial to me, that's our right as Americans, but do the Europeans understand Americans in all aspects. I don't believe so. I remember seeing this headline of a British newspaper upon hearing that Bush had just been reelected...something to the effect "How can ? millions of Americans be so stupid?" It presumed most likely that we would have turned him out of office and instead returning him for a second term with a majority of the popular vote. Whether one praises that or laments it is also immaterial...it's historical fact.

April brought up a very good point,, television often does a huge disservice in how it portrays some Americans.

Has anyone seen The Housewives of Orange County or New York,,or Toddlers and Tiaras,, SHOCKING, and many other "reality shows". Honestly, I hate all the people portrayed,, they all seem to be extremely shallow, egocentric, materialistic,, just all negative. Now, I have met some Americans, and they are MOST definately NOT all like that,, but, what if you have never met any,, what if your entire perception is only what you have seen on t.v. or heard from your government or religous leaders?? Then one could have a very warped view indeed.

I think travel is a great cure for this, people getting to know other people, person to person, one on one. We on this board are all lucky enough to have freedom to travel.. there are so many countries where even if one had the money,, one would not have the freedom to travel and form our own opinions.

Lucky us.

I traveled to the UK to meet up with a group of friends from all over the world who met on an Internet bulletin board. I was rooming with a British friend (who had spent a year in my city attending university, and we had become friendly then). We sat at breakfast one morning with two of the American women, whom I like very much and are generally lovely, and all they could do was complain--not about anything major, just a lot of general "this is different from home and therefore inferior" whining. We just smiled and nodded and didn't say anything.

A few days later, my British friend said to me, "Why aren't you complaining like they did? Why are you different?" I could truthfully say to her that it was because of being prepared for the trip by reading Rick Steves' books and watching his shows. It's not a matter of "don't dare to criticize," it's more a matter of being willing to travel with an open mind and heart, understanding that it's going to be different, it's not going to be like home, and being okay with that and open to the experience. I don't know if I would have felt and acted the same way if I had not been Rick Steves-ized, but I was aware that it would improve my travel experience if I was. And it did.

Pat, I've looked back over my post and see nothing that says "if you don't like it leave" or "why are you here if you don't like it". That, unfortunately was added by you and totally changes the context of my post which was: "Why are you here?" This is meant to find out why someone is dissatisfied. Are you in this place willingly? To be happy in a place either permanently or temporarily, a person needs to want to be there. "What don't you like?" - Is it the lack of 5 star restaurants or the school systems? Two very different reasons not to like a place. The purpose of my questions is to have a conversation and I really dislike being portrayed as a "love it or leave it" kind of person just because in your experience Americans in particular say this. Jim, I'm in total agreement with working to change the things you don't like and nothing I've said is contrary to that.

"And Anheuser-Busch got taken over by Belgian InBev. So now we're drinking a lot of Beck's and Stella here in the States. Not a bad thing in my opinion. However you Canadians can enjoy your Labatts."

Even better that Leffe and Hoegaarden are now widely available throughout the US. As for Becks, if I wanted to drink skunky cheap German beer... well, I'd drink Becks actually...

Jennings didn't sound like the others, I swear he had the most sexy accent...let me swoon a little. Oh for the days when I could watch the news and not care what he reported, only that I had the opportunity to listen to that voice. Oh, the way he said "about" always got me.

I feel like a 20 year old college girl right now, LOL

"why are you here, why would you stay in a place if you are so unhappy"

Those are the lines I am referring to,, Teena, but please calm down,, I was asking a genuine question ,( see I was trying to get some answers,, but instead got you defensive,,you know there ARE some Americans who DO say that, do you know why?), and you answered it quite extensively in your PM. I did not say YOU were a "love it or leave it" person,, but did ask you the question,, since your lines ( quoted directly from your post) seemed to say that. If they didn't,( because that is not what you actually meant by those lines), which you did explain very well in your pm.. then they didn't. No need to go postal.
and I did say SOME Americans,, not all, not all that I have met, not all that I have talked to online, not all.. so relax.

btw as per your PM, , its "eh" ,, not "ay" that Canadians say,, and yup,, we do use it more then we think,, but usually we don't notice it ,, only outsiders.. LOL and its funny.. so I don't get upset by people saying stuff like that about us,. but I know some Americans hate to be the brunt of any joke about themselves,, like "all Southerners love to fry food" etc..

I think people need to take certain issues ALOT less seriously,, and a few issues ALOT more seriously.

Jim,
With the advent of Shengen (Spelling?), we from the US cannot even visit, legally, for an 'unreasonably long trip'. Some countries, like the Czech Republic, are even beginning to enforce that visitors should have proof of their own insurance before entering.
And you think that these measures are "significantly more stringent" than the visa/immigration policies of the USA? Seriously? Maybe you should inform yourself what citizens of fellow developed countries must do to set, legally, a foot on US soil.

In fairness, I should mention that Teena didn’t actually say love it or leave it.

I will point out that the millions of people dying to get into this country that April mentioned aren’t (unfortunately) welcome by many millions more, who, by chance, were lucky enough to be born in America and have immigrant ancestors somewhere in their lineage. Yet, these same people would deny others a shot at survival – survival is the reason people risk everything to come north. And, these haters (perhaps strong language, but it is what it is) are often the very people who proudly shout “love it or leave it” from the rooftops of their Tea Bagger meetings.

On the other hand, it's not unreasonable to expect that people who want to immigrate to this country follow the rules for coming here. Sadly, most every person that risks their life to enter this country illegally can get temporary permission to work in the US, by simply filling out a few forms at the nearest US embassy. While it may just be a temporary work visa, it puts them into the "system" to possibly get a green card, and then citizenship. There are plenty of immigrants who do play by the rules and follow the procedures, it's not fair to them that others skirt the law. I'm not aware of any industrialized country that lets folks "wander" across the borders at will...why should the US be any different?

......Then again should be spend billions of dollar rounding up folks who didn't fill out a form?

Maggie, we do the same when we travel. The last thing I want to eat or drink in Euorpe is something from "back home." I am there to enjoy what each country has to offer, and many times, end up looking to buy these "foreign" goods upon my return.

Pat, the one Canadian that I simply adored was Peter Jennings. I loved his accent, and his looks were not too bad either, LOL

I may have to flee the county "if" a certain "winking" woman really runs for office. She scares the crap out of me! A bit off topic, but the mention of tea baggers got me a little scared there.

Peter Jennings had an accent? ;)

Peter Jennings didn't have an accent, did he?

It’s not unreasonable for governments to have controls in place…that’s perfectly sensible. It’s unconscionable, however, for our government to essentially allow big business, big agriculture, and others to invite and recruit desperate yet undocumented workers from south of our border and then exact inhumane treatment on a few unlucky immigrants and their families who get caught without documents as window dressing to show that something is being done about illegal immigration. Realistically, it’s not easy, nor is it very practical for poor, uneducated villagers from Ecuador, Guatemala, or Honduras to get a work visa from the U.S. For them, a green card or citizenship may be a pipe dream that is impossible to achieve. It may seem unfair for some to wait while others skirt the law, but what do we expect desperate people to do? Crossing the border illegally is literally a matter of survival for so many…what would we do in a similar circumstance? To be sure, this is not an easy issue. Still, it seems the rules could be adjusted so people could come here to work both safely and legally. After all, business wants the immigrant workers here for a variety of reasons, and people have crossed borders for centuries in search of work and a better life. So, why not reform our system so that people are not exploited, unprotected by law, and forced to work in unreasonable conditions for unreasonable pay? Yes, other industrialized nations also have immigration controls in place, but even the EU deals with half a million illegal immigrants annually. And, they’re facing many of the same challenges we’re facing here.

"Peter Jennings had an accent? ;)" He didn't talk like Doug and Bob McKenzie, but if you listened closely, you could hear that he didn't speak with an American-standard newcaster accent either.

And what exactly is the point of this thread, other than to formulate the most generalizing comments possible? Because of course, we all know that Americans are too sensitive, Europeans are too blunt and Canadians all drink Molson while wearing tuque hats... ;)

Tom.....Molson got taken over by Coors (shudder)....we all drink room temperature British beer now.....

And Labatts is owned by Anheuser Busch InBev. When will you Canadians learn.....eh? :)

Ahhh...for the good old Molson's days!!

Good thoughts, Michael. Ironic that the current administration, while modeling so much of their policy on the EU model, has not adopted the significantly more stringent EU immigration policy. With the advent of Shengen (Spelling?), we from the US cannot even visit, legally, for an 'unreasonably long trip'. Some countries, like the Czech Republic, are even beginning to enforce that visitors should have proof of their own insurance before entering.

Even my closest friends knock on the door before they come into my house. Visitors wait for me to invite them in. Why not apply the same uncommon sense logic to our home nation?

...oh... Frank, Steve, Norm, et al, ... and THAT is why I only drink imported German, Belgian, and other tasty beers...

Did Ron Burgundy have an accent?

After visiting Disney World, the U.S National Parks are a big draw to foreign tourists. Especially the ones west of the Rockies. And I can't think of any that are near "big cities."

As an example, air tours over the Grand Canyon are offered in eight different languages.

And having worked with tourists from all over the world, I've found out something interesting....some are nice and some are obnoxious. (Gee, isn't that what we say about our own people who visit overseas?)

The best beer list must include (in order): König Ludwig Weiss, Paulaner Hefe-weizen, Weihenstephaner Hefe-Weissbier, and Hacker-Pschorr Hefe Weisse.

You want to know what Germans want to see? Indian Reservations, the Grand Canyon, Miami, white water rafting, all the National parks, anything scenic and of course the big cities - NYC, San Francisco, Chicago. They like going to baseball games cause it is supposed to be so American. They enjoy going fishing and hunting too, as this is totally different. Especially sought after is nature, wild forests, the deserts, or the Pacific Northwest rain forests. They want to see things that are different than what they have at home. Just like Americans, Canadians, Australians, Japanese, Chinese, Mexicans, Brazilians, S. Africans, and Indians want to see what is different.

EDIT: I removed this comment. I couldn't figure out how to say it without sounding argumentative -- -- which I certainly don't want to do. I'll shorten to this, and send Mark a personal message instead: Mark, I'm aware that millions of people a year are able to move into the U.S., technically illegally, but then purchase property, hold bank accounts, and get insurance, all while continuing to be illegal. While the EU regulations are certainly imperfect, the US is behind even those laws when talking about people who are willing to live in the gray area.

Ooooh.... good beer list... Here's the list of the ones I gave out to non-beer people who need to learn what beer tastes like as Christmas gifts this year: Czechvar, Bitburger Pils, Weihenstephaner Original, Franziskaner Weissbier, Hoffbrau Original, Spaten Optimator, Warsteiner Dunkel, Kostritzer Schwarzbier, Maredsous Abbaye-Abdij, Chimay Ale Peres Trapistes. I picked that list because of the variety it offers -- to help other folks learn their ales from their lagers, their whites from their darks, full bodied from crisp, etc... mmmmmmm...

I’m not sure about a couple of these: Franziskaner, Bitburger, and Warsteiner aren’t very good IMO, but everyone has their own tastes. :)

Michael -- LOL! So true... König Ludwig Weiss, Paulaner Hefe-weizen, Weihenstephaner Hefe-Weissbier, and Hacker-Pschorr Hefe Weisse are certainly superior to an indescribable extent compared to Bitburger -- -- but these were Christmas Gifts... a couple dozen of them... to co-workers...

Besides, Bitburger has its place in a taste sampler -- it's better than 98% of American beers -- and I gave each person descriptions of the beers. Some were in the category of 'affordable blue-collar' beers that are typically drunk at home --- where others are enjoyed on evenings out.

I, personally, like the Hacker Pschorr if I'm going to have something light -- and love the Flensburger Dunkel for dark... but have never found that one outside of Flensburg!

Imagine that? This thread went from being ridiculous and on the threshold of validating Godwin's law to being about something really substantial: BEER! Would anyone else agree that Paulaner is the best macro brewer in Germany? Their Oktoberfest Marzen is insanely good...

I used to consider Chimay Grande Reserves to be the absolute Holy Grail of beers... before I realized it was widely available in the US and I can drive less than a mile to buy it. So, the new Holy Grail, only available in Europe, is Hoegaarden's Verboden Vrucht.

I don't like beer. Can we talk instead about Cidre/cider ?

We had some amazing cider in Brittany.

I still want to know what became of Kathleen.

BTW, this should have been a "random" thread where we talking about anything (well, within reason), that comes to mind.

Welsh beer is the best.