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Proposed new forum rule - guide reviews

Hey all,

I'm proposing a new rule. I plan on going ahead with this one way or another, but your comments and input may sway how it's done.

Context: We (RSE moderators) have an issue. We want this forum to be a place where you can give an unsolicited review of a guide, and we have a section called Day Tours where such threads belong. And Rick is big into encouraging use of local guides as a great way to learn more about the place you're visiting. However, we are not TA or Yelp or other places on the web that have a pre-made page about an entity whether it's a hotel, restaurant, or guide's service where such reviews belong.

Problem: There are some local guides (some recommended by RS, some not) that treat our forum like a reviews website, clearly asking their customers to come here to post a review. When you get several reviews of a guide within e.g. 6 months, even if the customers are legit, it still looks like spam in the context of this largely Q&A forum format, and it is essentially coordinated spam from an actor that we don’t have direct access to in order to address the issue. Alert forum members start calling out all posts about that guide as spam. And if we don’t remove the review because it appears to moderators as legit, the community still replies in a way that invokes doubt in the OP. That’s not a great look. Worse, when orchestration has been determined and posts are removed, legitimate customers naturally get very upset (it's not their fault!). Despite that, we stand by the decision to remove these posts as – if we kept them – our forum loses its primary credibility as a place to get genuine travel advice without ulterior motives. As you can see, it's a difficult situation, and it is extremely time consuming for moderators to investigate and deal with these issues.

Proposed rule change: We will allow a single unsolicited review or recommendation of a guide (still subject to spam checks) as a new topic (aka thread or web page) every 6 months. Why 6? Because threads lock after 6 months, and we have a 6-month filter in this website's search engine. Any additional reviews for that guide in that timeframe will be required to be a reply in that existing thread. All others will be subject to removal (with polite direction to the existing thread).

The aim is that this will contain all recommendations for a guide to a single thread, and legit customers will be more likely to keep the thread going as a discussion (instead of replying in the format of an unsolicited review which can appear spammy). It will also eliminate much of the time spent by moderators reviewing for spam.

How will reviewers know to do this? Community Guidelines, instructions on the Day Tours section, and other reasonable places. We'll do our best to inform of this expectation, but it won't be perfect. Some will not see this rule and post in a separate thread anyway. Moderators will handle it (if reported per usual... no, we don't expect reporters to hunt down if there's an active thread for that guide). Far easier for us to handle that - and better for those involved including the guide being reviewed - than the status quo. Guides could tell their customers to post here all they want, and it won't appear (nearly as) spammy as it'll be contained to a single thread as it should be (and as it is with other reviews websites).

Concerns? Good rule? Suggestions? Please keep responses on subject by not wandering into concerns of illegitimate posts (actual spam, fake reviews, AI posts, tag-team accounts, etc).

Thanks for your thoughts on this proposed rule. I'll check back next week.

Posted by
3444 posts

I think it is a really good idea. The Webmaster does a good job of identifying the issues I have with guide-generated reviews, but that I haven't been able to articulate.

Posted by
20265 posts

Proposed rule change: We will allow a single unsolicited review or
recommendation of a guide (still subject to spam checks) as a new
topic

So, as a topic it is limited. But if someone is heading off to Albania, post the same with requests for general suggestions, I can still post my favorite Albanian guide as a response? Several times a year even ... if useful and appropriate to the theme of the thread?

Posted by
6496 posts

Thanks!
I'm not sure it will completely address the concern, but I appreciate the effort.
There are somewhat frequent posts recommending a guide or a driver and it is the first post by the contributor and the prose seems to point to AI or the guide/driver himself.
For me, it goes beyond a concern that the post is not a "true review" by a traveler, there could be an issue with safety.
I always appreciate recommendations for restaurants, hotels and guides, but I'm pretty careful about using recommendations from people I do not "know" from the forum.

Posted by
8039 posts

I always appreciate recommendations for restaurants, hotels and guides, but I'm pretty careful about using recommendations from people I do not "know" from the forum.

And therein lies the issue, jules. I feel the same (although I don't use local guides) in that I might direct someone to a review of a guide that was written by a long-time poster who I trust. But if there are a lot of first-time posters pushing a local guide, I just ignore it (and possibly report it). The problem is that there are many newcomers to the forum who don't have that discernment to fall back on, and it's hard for them to know whether a review is valid.

In my opinion, this solution would hopefully solve solve the current problem. And it is a problem, I think. It's certainly better than the status quo.

ETA: You mentioned restaurants and hotels as well as gyuide. I don't think those reviews are included in the new rule; probably because it's not a real problem. I've never really noticed much in the way of "coordinated spam" from hotels or restaurants. And I sometimes do use recommendations from newcomers; mainly because the recs are usually in the form of a reply. I found my wonderful cottage in North Yorkshire from a poster who I did not know and only had a few dozens posts. ☺

Posted by
5623 posts

From what I've seen, it's mostly a problem with posts about Italy guides, particularly with Pompeii and Amalfi Coast guides, from first-time posters who never post again.
Thanks, Andrew, for being alert to this issue, and I think your solution will address the problem.
I also never thought about the safety issue, so thanks, Jules, for bringing that up.
Happy Turkey Day to all!

Posted by
4844 posts

So, this is different than a post asking for a guide name in a particular city, where people reply with names of people they have used?

Making sure it would still be ok to ask for and to reply with that kind of information.

Posted by
20265 posts

TexasTravelMom, as I interpret what is written by the Webmaster; If you post a new thread with the topic that Boris the Moldovan Guide is the best in the world. Then, no more threads will be permitted for six months, in which the topic focuses on Boris (the best guide in the world).

But, if AliceTX starts a thread and says she is going to Moldova and needs advice, you will still be able to suggest Boris on Alice's thread. Then, the next day, if Humphry874 starts a thread asking for help going to Romania, Moldova and Ukraine, you will be able to respond on that thread that Boris (the best guide in the world) can provide the transfer between countries.

If I understand it correctly then its not so bad. I havent noticed new threads concentrating on one guide but I don’t read the Italy posts. I do know it happens a lot on TA, one of the reasons I don’t go there. More common on TA is the paid hotel posts (paid in that they give you a discount at the bar if you do a post). I know one hotel in Budapest that pushes the guests to leave reviews and make posts. It’s the one hotel I tell people to avoid.

If people want to trust or report or whatever is a whole different topic. I go to a few less traveled places where the tourist support network isn’t quite as good as Italy, and where I believe the advantages of a guide or trip planner are valuable. I have been blessed to have met a couple of good ones over the years. But from the posts above it sounds like I probably get “reported” on a regular basis for contributing the same names several times a year. That’s amusing.

Posted by
8039 posts

Mr. E, it's not just Italy. I've seen them for other countries; especially in eastern Europe.

Recently we posted a glowing recommendation for a city guide in Verona, initial contact was made from info published in the RS Italy book and she has done a RS podcast. I’m assuming this is an example of the type of post that’s going to be limited?

It sounds like it, unless the rule only covers those who are new posters. And since Andrew didn't mention that, I'm assuming this rule will apply to all of us. That doesn't mean (I don't think) that you could not mention a guide in a trip report with a glowing recommendation. But it sounds like the idea is to restrict those threads that are posted only for the purpose of lauding a guide to the skies.

Posted by
20265 posts

Tardee, I am sure they are out there, but I just can not recall seeing a post dedicated to the promotion of a tour guide. Some one should link one of the offending posts.

If there were one, I dont guess it would bother me one way or another. If there were 4 or 5 on the same guy in as many months, that might be a waste of forum space.

Posted by
4597 posts

If there were 4 or 5 on the same guy in as many months, that might be
a waste of forum space.

Do a search for Gaetano or Manfredi and you'll find a potential reason for the new rule.

Edit to add: 134 hits.

Posted by
20265 posts

You gotta watch out for those Italians. But thats how I missed it.

I have another suggestin for a new rule. "NO FIRST TIME POSTERS"

EDIT ... ahhh, wait... never mind. not a good idea

Posted by
684 posts

Based upon the goals you stated, this change makes sense to me. If there was a positive post followed by 4 positive replies and 1 negative reply, these will all be located in the same single thread, rather than 6 seperate posts. The likelyhood of seeing all of tour reviews is greater in one post with replies than 6 unconnected posts that will, of course, have inconsistent post headings.

IMO the challenge for you and your team will be monitoring and identifying multiple posts that are reviewing the same tour but are posted using vastly different headings. Hope you have an AI bot to help you with this.

Posted by
6496 posts

I have read a number of posts recommending guides or drivers coming from a first time poster. Sometimes the language makes it obvious that it a non native English person wrote it. That is likely an over generalization, but I'm always suspicious. Maybe its too bad I have developed a wariness. I don't think I've seen any of these "suspect" recommendations on someone else's thread. The recommendation is a first and only post, and like I implied sometimes with unusual phrasing or sentence structure. In the end, it could be a great recommendation, sometimes perhaps the guide is lousy and at worst, the recommendation could be dangerous.

Whether it is a hotel recommendation, guide or driver, the forum user needs to use their own good diligence and most know this. However, its the new people coming to the forum that would concern me. They come here and see the good Rick Steves' name and assume all recommendations are vetted somehow.

I just recently asked for recommendations for guides and was given a couple of suggestions. They came from folks I recognize on the forum and also within the context of providing other information on my topic which provided some assurance that it was a good faith recommendation. I then look at the guide's website or communicate with them prior to hiring. I don't use guides often, but very occasionally, they make sense for us.

Posted by
2780 posts

I appreciate you trying to solve this problem. These repetitive guide reviews are annoying and against the spirit of this forum.

Regarding your solution: I have a bias against complicated procedures, and this one seems pretty complicated if not unworkable. However, if you think you can manage it — and you would know better than I — then I say go for it.

Another solution, which I think is better, is to ban reviews of guides altogether, and possibly hotels and restaurants if you see fit. People who are looking for a guide can ask for recommendations and anyone can respond. I really don’t see the need for any unsolicited reviews.

Posted by
1022 posts

Seems to me the bigger problem, particularly with first time posts with these kinds of "out of left field" reviews, is the first time post issue itself, some or possibly most which appear to be AI driven, strange phrasing, etc. The unsolicited reviews should always be read with a grain of salt, particularly from first time posters. The net you are proposing will ensnare legitimate posts from bonafide posters, but you seem to be aware of that.

Good luck.

Posted by
887 posts

On TA I normally do not care how many reviews an individual has under their belt, whether its 1 or 100, I care more about the quality of a review and the useful information. And TA's forums and review sections are two different things. Here the site does not collect reviews, the forums are small and a little more intimate. I'd be wary of reviews from users without a track record, posts that I could look back through. I would tend to agree that I have a preference for keeping things simple. Keep reviews of guides out of the individual country forums -- treat them as spam -- and maybe allow them to be collect in an organized manner within the hotel and restaurant reviews section.

Posted by
1933 posts

I think this is a good idea, but personally, I'd prefer that this forum do away with reviews, period. Instead, when someone solicits advice on choosing a guide (or a restaurant, or anything else), this would be the place for people to recommend (or advise against) a particular guide (or whatever). And in trip reports, it's fine to mention a guide or experience that was good (or not so good).

There are lots of review sites. This forum distinguishes itself from those by serving more as a community of travelers who can ask each other for advice and share experiences with each other.

I know this might not be a widely held position, and it might be contrary to the goals of this forum, but that's my opinion.

Posted by
4844 posts

Hmmmm, I might vote with Carroll. I want to see a trip report with more than one hotel or one restaurant recommendation. Those stand alone posts, even when legit, don’t do me any good.

Or let someone ask for guide, hotel, or restaurant recommendations and replies stay the same as now. Of course, as has happened recently, someone puts a plug in via the “Trip Report” forum - then you are back to this situation. I am not suspicious - I just have my own ways of choosing and vetting.

Are you looking at both positive and negative posts equally?

Posted by
1882 posts

We will allow a single unsolicited review or recommendation of a guide (still subject to spam checks) as a new topic (aka thread or web page) every 6 months.

EDITED: Due to reading Mardee's post below. Which I think is a great idea. Reported posts have to be reviewed anyhow, so why not just hold first time posts for approval. Its not like they are emergency first time posts. If we do see them we already know they have been approved.

It will not eliminate all spam, especially from posters that are not first timers, but will stop the info from hitting the forum and will discourage future hit and run spammers when they don't see their info posted right away.

Posted by
20265 posts

My goodness, you are correct. So I return to my previous suggestion. We ban all first time posts.

Oh and please post the name of the guide that did that so we can look out for him in the future.

Posted by
8039 posts

Since there’s already a section on here for hotel and restaurant reviews, maybe guide reviews should be added there. That will not solve the multiple manipulated reviews but maybe limit them to one place to be monitored.

The problem is that you are not required to post there, and many posters do not post reviews in the review section.

Andrew, I don't know the software requirements to do this, but I do know there are many Facebook groups that permit admins to monitor posts from new members (up to a certain post count), and the posts are not published until they have been approved.

Is that a possibility here? That may be difficult for the tech staff, of course, but just curious...

Posted by
351 posts

This forum is pretty well run as it is.

If you think you need to add this change, you're probably right. While I personally haven't noticed the "guide reviews" as a problem, I also don't read every thread. I also see that there is light policing on what are effectively backdoor ads when someone says Delta is adding this feature -- like shake shack burgers or rabbies is having 10% off sale or such and such has a sale on shoes or clothes. I'd think those kinda cross you line on forum rules and those minor transgressions are more numerous as far as I can tell -- but also they really aren't really problem.

Your and your team are the refs. I think you guys have done a great job keeping this place informative and tidy-- so here is my real feedback: Keep up the great work!!

Posted by
8039 posts

I also see that there is light policing on what are effectively backdoor ads when someone says Delta is adding this feature -- like shake shack burgers or rabbies is having 10% off sale or such and such has a sale on shoes or clothes. I'd think those kinda cross you line on forum rules.

David, there is no rule against letting someone know of a sale or promotion as long as the poster has no financial interest either personally or via a close family or friend connection. I find it very helpful to know when travel supplies are being discounted, or when a tour company like Rabbies is offering a discount.

Posted by
1029 posts

Webmaster:

On the topic of guide reviews, I understand the need to eliminate spam and am supportive of the proposed change. I like the inclusion of guide and tour information in trip reports as it provide context. However, I am often confused about what is allowed and what is not allowed. Even in my recent trip report on Greece, I had to send a note to the Webmaster to get guidance on what I could put in the report. Please note that while I can get guide review information from other sites, there is a certain philosophy of travel at RS that makes guide reviews from forum members more relevant for me.

On the topic of sales/discounts: do find it very helpful to know when there is a discount/sale. Over the past year, I have really benefited from those recommendations.. I used to post information when I received information about sales or special offers since some of the tours, plays/events are so expensive and it is nice to get a discount. However, I no longer post that information because I am confused about what is allowed or not and don't want to create concerns amongst the forum members on spam.

I truly appreciate the advice from the forum members, everyone has helped me create memorable trips. The Webmaster is always thoughtful and helpful. My only request to the Webmaster is once you decide on the rule can you please post it with detailed guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not.

Posted by
8979 posts

WM, give it a shot and see if it solves your problems. I cant think of any down side. Maybe change the title of Day Trips to be a more obvious location for guide requests. Having been a non-guideline-reading newbie once, I would have assumed the "destination" forum would be the place to ask for a recommendation. People, especially new ones, don't seem to look for old threads, preferring to ask their own question.

I think a policy of having first-time posts approved would discourage new participants. They wouldn't see their post or any responses for a period of time, possibly over a weekend.

Posted by
20265 posts

Day Trips to be a more obvious location for guide requests.

I always thought day trips were for any day trip, not only guided day trips.

Personally, I don't see the huge issue, but like I said, I don̈t read the itsly forum. Might take the web master as much effort in enforcing a new rule as in freezing a few posts with a note to go see the first on the subject.

Posted by
8979 posts

Mr É, that was the WM's suggestion in the OP.

How will reviewers know to do this? Community Guidelines, instructions on the Day Tours section, and other reasonable places. . .

Posted by
1022 posts

I think a policy of having first-time posts approved would discourage
new participants. They wouldn't see their post or any responses for a
period of time, possibly over a weekend.

This is why we've never instituted such a change. The cost to have 24/7 coverage so that this wouldn't be a pain point would be quite significant.

Yes, giving a reply to a question is still 100% in bounds. Regarding trip reports, if you're describing the many things you do across a trip, it's all in bounds (still subject to Community Guidelines). If your description is really only about one business (hotel/restaurant/guide), then that's a review and not a trip report.

I am considering the point being made about simplicity. That was one of my main concerns. I'm not overly concerned about the effort on our part. These issues take up significant time when they arise, so deleting a few posts or moving a few others is no big deal. Making a change is quick, but making the right decision is what takes time. I'll take this back to the drawing board a bit. Saying "no unsolicited guide reviews" is simple enough just like our no-blogs rule, but it may not fit with RSE's intent with the forum.