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Preliminary Planning for Summer 2023 Western Europe w/ Family of 5

Hello,

It's been 18 years since my DH and I have been to Europe. We now have teenage triplets (16 when we travel next summer). I'm new to this forum and hoping you all can help me set up a very preliminary planning schedule.

We have to work around a whole lot of school and activity/sports calendars, so we're looking at a two-week (15 night) trip in Summer 2023 (likely last week of July and first week of August or around then). I am tentatively aiming for 5 nights in London, 5-6 nights in Paris, and 3-4 nights in Berner Oberland region. I understand this will not allow us to see all the sights in the area(s) we do tour, and we have accepted that. We'll do an open-jaw flight - flying into London and flying out of one of the airports in Switzerland.

My questions:

  1. What's the best Rick Steves book to purchase for these locations? I'd prefer not to buy three separate books, but if I do the "General Europe" book, will I be missing key information about lodging/transportation tips?
  2. How far in advance do we need to start reserving things like lodging? (I'll ask on the specific forums whether people recommend vacation rentals at these sites or two hotel rooms, etc.)
  3. Fellow Americans: When do you find you get the best flight fares for Europe? How many months in advance do you generally book your tickets? I will likely book through Delta, as we get rewards through them.
  4. Any other tips for preliminary planning as I start this process?

Thank you for any thoughts/advice that you have.

Posted by
4590 posts

I would get the small London and Paris snapshot guides, but if you can look at these books at a bookstore or library, you could see if the Best of Europe book meets your needs. You should also be aware that most of Rick's books have not yet been updated since Covid-you can look at the guidebooks on this website to see when new ones are scheduled for release.

Posted by
8855 posts

How fun!

First of all, save yourself a lot of money by going to your local library and checking out guidebooks there. In addition, my library sells older guidebooks as does Goodwill. Are they completely up to date? No, but they give you a great idea of the main highlights of any location and you should use the internet for up to date info on any site you want to see anyway.

I like the way that you have narrowed it down to 3 locations and realize you don't have to (and can't) see it all. I would suggest looking at rental apartments for a family of 5 adult size people as soon as you know your travel dates.

Delta partners with KLM and Air France so you could earn your frequent flier miles on either of those airlines as well. There is no hard and fast rule for how early to buy your flights. You can't buy earlier than about 330 days out.... What many people do is use google flights to track flight prices so that they have a good idea of what the "typical" price is for the route. When they see a price that seems lower than "typical" they will buy.

Other advice is to really involve the triplets in the planning. Have each pick out one top pick for each location and make sure to include that pick in your planning.

A good resource for looking at train travel in europe is this website
https://www.seat61.com/

Posted by
11832 posts

I find this a good source to get RS guide books. https://www.thriftbooks.com/

All have been in good condition. Prices ( or hours) for things may not be current, but contact info is in the books.

The attractions do not move so not having the most current edition dos not make it useless.

Posted by
8312 posts

Wow, triplets? Sounds as if your life IS full.

I agree about taking your "kids" to London and Paris as the connections by Eurostar are so easy--2 3/4 hours. They are both very important cities to see and experience.
But you may find travel to Switzerland expensive because no budget airlines fly from Paris to Zurich. You just have Swiss International and Air France going that way. And it's a long train ride too. You could get to Geneva Airport from Paris-Orly Airport inexpensively, however.
Have you considered an alternative destination--Barcelona? It's a 650 mile, 6.5 hour fast train from Paris. Our train hit 185 mph just outside of Paris when we made the trip. And the city's just a great place to visit--even has beaches.
I usually check travel books out of the library. Even often find aging travel books in the library store for a couple of bucks.
Airlines usually re-organize after the first of the year, so I usually wait to get tickets. I do watch thru the Fall to establish in my mind what a normal airfare is.
You're okay looking for rooms 3 months ahead of time. Rooms for 5 can often require getting 2 rooms, however.
Otherwise, try not to over plan the trip. Give the task to the kids to figure out what they want to do. Wikipedia's a great place to research any trips for what's popular travel sites.
You might want to get out of France before August. The country essentially goes on vacation then.

Posted by
1052 posts

Get the Rick Steves book, EUROPE THROUGH THE BACK DOOR. Sometimes it's cheaper here on this site in the store, but many times it's cheaper on Amazon. We re-read it EVERY year before we go to Europe - tons of tips on Debit cards, no foreign transaction Credit Cards, how to get money out, how to buy train tickets. The back part of the book has great info on all the countries.

You can book flights as early as 330 days out from your return flight back to USA and we usually find the best fares then - even Delta Comfort Plus and Delta Premium Select is usually as good of a deal as coach that far out.

Also, the TRAVEL TIPS part of this website has some of the best travel tips you can find. Be sure to read all of them.

We rarely rent a car - we love using the train - - man in seat 61 is a great website for trains.

We love the RS individual country books and the smaller pocket guide books. You can sign up for emails in the store section and you will get weekly sale emails.

Also, be sure and download the FREE Rick Steves App BEFORE you go - click on the country you will be visiting and there are LOTS of free walking tours to listen to and info about the area, and cathedral walk throughs.

Posted by
17330 posts

You can get lots of excellent advice here—no need to buy 3 separate guidebooks. Start with the library as suggested.

Your plan is good, although I would take a night from Paris and add it to the Berner OberlNd—-4 nights minimum there. If your flight is out of Zurich in late morning or afternoon, you can spend a last night (or 2) in Luzern instead of Zurich. It is just over an hour to the airport from Luzern, with frequent and reliable service.

If your time in the Berner Oberland is indeed the first week in August, I suggest you stay in Mürren, and make sure you are there on the first Saturday in August. That is when they do the village festival (Dorffest), with the parade that is featured in the RS Switzerland videos. We have managed to be there for this 3 times now—-always a kick!

The kids might also enjoy the Via Ferrata there.

I suggest you look for a vacation rental for Mürren, one with a balcony to enjoy the views. You will enjoy the extra space, and you can save a lot of $$$ by making your own dinners. Swiss restaurants, while excellent quality,mare also very expensive. We prefer to stop at a mountain hut for our lunch, and make dinner “in”.

If your budget is really tight, the apartment at Chalet Fontana (recommended by Rick for over 20 years) will sleep 5 very comfortably, although one kid will be in the parent’s bedroom. And there is no actual living room—-the space is a large kitchen/dining area, a large bedroom for 3 with sitting space by the window, and a second bedroom with twin beds. The location is great—-right close to the grocery. And breakfast in the BandB section is included with the apartment, so you can meet and socialize with the other guests.

http://www.ferntree.ch/chalet/fontana.htm

Posted by
485 posts

For best flight prices you might look at different combinations of the order of your locations (like London-Switzerland-Paris or Paris-Switzerland-London). And if you picked Switzerland just because of mountains you may be able to make better travel connections and/or less expensive flights, accommodations and dining by considering Alps in Germany, France or Italy.

Posted by
2534 posts

We’re a family of 4 with two teens. We like to rent apartments in Europe because finding rooms that sleep 4 people in real beds (not sofa beds) is next to impossible. You might have an easier time finding a double room and a triple room. Having 2 bathrooms is important, if we ever want to get out the door! We also like access to laundry and a fridge. I would start looking and bookmarking places that interest you. Plug in dates for this summer and see what’s available.

When renting apartments, beware that a living room with a sofa bed is considered a “bedroom”. And a “bathroom” can be a room with a sink and toilet OR a room with JUST a shower. Or any combination thereof! So if a place says 2 bedroom 2 bath, look very closely at the pictures or you could end up with one actual bedroom, a sofa bed, and one toilet and one shower. With a sink in another room!

I would also recommend checking out the books from the library. Covid isn’t over and it’s impact on local hotel and restaurants isn’t reflected in the most recent books. But you can establish a general idea of what you want to see and do.

We fly from the west coast and generally book about six months out. Fares are ridiculous now, and I’m hoping they drop by our trip next year!

I totally understand working around kids’ schedules. But if there is ANY way you can take the trip in late June, your experience will be VERY different than in July and August. We spent 3 weeks in mid June to early July in various countries in 2018 and noticed a BIG increase in crowds towards the end of June. Many places in Europe shut down completely for August (restaurants, shops) as the owners go on vacation. July and August put you at peak season for foreign AND local tourists, plus some potentially very warm weather in Paris. I would look for an apartment with AC).

If your open to a sofa bed in a hotel, I can recommend the “apartments” at the Hotel Residence des Artes in Paris. They are actually two rooms next to each other: a double room with a queen bed, bathroom and mini fridge: then a room with a huge king bed, separate sitting room with sofa bed, mini fridge, microwave, 2 burner cooktop and microwave, huge bathroom with shower and separate tub. For about $300/nt. If they would add a rollaway bed to the king room, it might be perfect (except no laundry). The location is ideal.

Plan for laundry. Either pay someone to do it, or plan to spend a few hours in a launderette. Don’t plan this for Switzerland - launderettes are hard to find there. If you rent an apartment with a “dryer” it could mean a drying rack, not a machine. And a washing machine in an apartment is generally VERY small, washing one or two peoples daily outfits per load. Don’t underestimate the amount of time you could potentially be doing laundry.

Swiss Rail offers sales on passes each year. (I think it’s in the fall). You’ll want a rail pass to get around the BO, so it’s worth getting an idea which one works best for your plans and watching for sales.

Don’t over fill your days. We found that our teens needed a bit of downtime mid day. We would plan one or two big sights in the morning, try to have lunch someplace with a great view every day, head back to the apartment for an hour or two in the afternoon (throw in a load of laundry!), then head back out for the evening.

Posted by
27 posts

Wow. Thank you everyone. This gives me a terrific starting point, and you all gave me things to consider that weren't even on my radar yet. I'll be checking out some guidebooks from the library and have already made notes of (and bookmarked) some of your information about lodging and transportation, along with some of the additional thoughts. I have 1 or 2 must-dos per location, but other than that, I agree with all your suggestions to let the teens really give most of the input on this trip. I will be back once I've done more research and have more site-specific questions. Thank you!

Posted by
8164 posts

I lived in Europe and the Middle East for 9 years and traveled all over with kids ranging from pre-teens to teens.

Recommend treating them like adults. Have them read up on the history of the places you plan to visit.

Do research on what to visit, museums, sights like Tower of London, Westminister Abbey and Parliament, Windsor Castle and more.
Guidebooks are a great help, they are not expensive, buy one and have the kids read it as well.

When selecting lodging and restaurants, use Kayak.com for budget prices and TripAdvisor (map feature) for location. Try finding lodging where you don't have to waste much time getting to the central city from you location. Compare air&b with Bed and Breakfasts for prices and location.

Take care of you belongings, Paris in particular is very bad for pickpocketing. Consider buying a money belt to keep passports and cash. For women buy a pack safe purse.

Posted by
17330 posts

As far as the order of travel and flights, I suggest you stick with your original idea of London to Paris to Switzerland.

Fly into London, spend 5 nights, take the quick and easy Eurostar train to Paris (under 3 hours, tickets much less expensive if bought 2-3 months in advance), then train to Berner Oberland in Switzerland. There are direct trains from Paris to Basel in 3 hours; change there to Swiss trains to Lauterbrunnen for the cablecar up to Mürren (another 3 hours) or head to Luzern in 1h 15 minutes and spend a night, continuing to Lauterbrunnen the following day by the scenic Brunig Pass route.

Posted by
3182 posts

Old guidebooks are not a good source of information because each edition is better than the previous and that is with all companies who write guidebooks. I started buying Rick Steves guidebooks in 2002 and have been to a few places multiple times and each guide got better.
Unless you’re checking a museum’s website, looking something up on the internet does not guarantee accuracy. Furthermore, Rick Steves has a link for updated information after his guide goes into print: https://www.ricksteves.com/europe/guidebook-updates. You do need a good guidebook when traveling on your own, there is no way you can think of every question and then sort through many responses.
I agree with buying Rick Steves Europe Through the Back Door but not my 2002 edition. The latest edition came out in Jan and he gives pertinent information on a number of topics plus gives a synopsis of top locations and all three of your picks are mentioned. He also suggests places to stay while there. This is the book you should leave home.
If you don’t want to carry three books (even though I do which is not a problem and I pack light and move often) there are five of you so two others could carry a book. Furthermore, you only need to haul three books on travel days and that’s a total of four days. Another option is when you’re done leave it behind; a lot of people do.
Since you’re spending a good amount of time in each place Rick Steves Snapshot guidebooks are for those who don’t have much time to see a place, this does not apply to you. I recommend buying Rick Steves London guide 24th edition that comes out in Aug. Rick Steves Paris 24th edition comes out in Sep and a new edition of his CH guidebook will be available in the summer ’23. All his books are available in electronic version too.
I would begin looking at airfare now. I prefer Skyscanner but most use Google. It’s also recommended to buy from the airline and not from a third party i.e., Skyscanner, Google, Expedia, etc. Delta is a good airline and as already mentioned they have code shares with Virgin Atlantic, Air France and KLM. I still like to clear my cookies when researching prices and if there are multiple PCs in your home ask others to check too.
After you purchase your air tickets book your hotels. I like Rick Steves picks but then check out negative reviews on Trip Advisor. It’s also recommended to book directly with the hotelier and not a third party i.e., Trip Advisor, Booking.com, etc. Rick Steves guidebooks sometimes offers discounts if you tell the hotelier that you’re using his recommendation. Airbnb’s are good too.
You also want to buy your Eurostar tickets after you buy your airfare. The further out you buy train tickets the cheaper it is.

Posted by
183 posts

Set your budget now. $20,000 for 5 seems likely depending on air and train. Until you know your budget your lodging choices will be in constant state of flux.

London and Paris. Great! Make your lists of "To See" sites. Mark them on a map. Does not have to written in stone but it will aid you in narrowing down the parts of London and Paris you want to stay. And if you intend to make use of the subways (recommended) staying close to a station makes herding a Party of 5 easier. Start research now just to learn the names of London and Paris districts.

We stayed in the 6th in Paris and Covent Garden in London and were happy with the locations and pricing. But that was us.

Somebody above mentioned 3 months out was fine for booking rooms. I disagree. I found that a VRBO rental was overall cheaper than getting 2 Hotel rooms. And again ... Location, Location, Location. And you will hear that Hotel rooms in Europe are small. 3 teens in a Paris hotel room seems tight. At 6 months out I think your selection of best places to stay will quickly shrink, Wit a Party of 5 You don't want to "settle" for what was left of accommodations.

And yes, involve the teens .. and hope they are willing to do the research.

Books? a dime a dozen. When you browse them, focus on WHY you should visit a place no HOW to visit it.

Posted by
457 posts

I'll add my 3 cents (inflation) without hopefully repeating too much ...

1) no need to buy books, check out travel books from the library while you do your planning ... right before you leave, check out 1 or 2 of the best ones you read and take them with you

2) involve the kids, it gets them excited since there are things they want to see, not just what mom and dad drag them to ... when my wife and I took our 2 daughters on a 2+ week trip, we let them pick a city they wanted to go to (Prague and Venice) and I built the trip including those cities ... got them excited about going and cut way back on the 'I don't want to go I want to stay here with my friends' whining

3) Flights ...

I will likely book through Delta, as we get rewards through them

Rewards aren't what they used to be so unless you are close to either getting status or the next level, I'd look first at price and schedule (non-stop vs. direct (you make a stop but don't change planes) vs. changing at a hub airport) especially with 5 people ... even if you're paying the airfare for all 5, you don't get all the miles ... each person gets their own miles, so unless they each have a good bank of miles or plan to fly a lot more, the miles will probably go to waste.

4) Once you get your itinerary pretty much set, start looking at places to stay and, if you choose hotels, be sure all are fully refundable ... if travelling between cities using trains, try to stay near the train station if possible (this depends on the neighborhood, some can be pretty seedy) so you don't have to drag bags that far to your hotel ... you'll also have some extra time in the morning when you leave on your departure days ... you'll need 2 rooms, most I have seen can sleep 4 max, though there may be some where you can squeeze another bed or have a sofa bed ... but rooms are small, especially bathrooms unless you are willing to spend big $$$ for a higher star hotel ... you're already planning on the going during peak tourist season so even lower star hotels are going to cost, so looking at apartments/homes might be the way to go ... we usually don't go that route, but I'd get them reserved early also (and fully refundable if possible).

Posted by
1332 posts

Have the kids get on YouTube, there’s plenty of travel related videos on there. I particularly like the ones which show a walk around a city, let’s me get a good feel of what it’s like there.

Posted by
1434 posts

The train ride between Paris & Zurich, which I did a few years ago the other direction, may be a nice way to slow down, enjoy the scenery, catch up on rest and or reading.

Posted by
457 posts

The train ride between Paris & Zurich

We did that in 2017, from Zurich to Paris stopping at Strasbourg and vicinity for a few days ... had to switch from Swiss Rail to SNCF at the border ... few minute walk between stations, then just a ticket machine in French only ... almost missed the connecting train ...