Please help me understand ...

Psychology teacher speaking here: I don't find this unusual at all. You probably have a specialized form of classical conditioning. Pick up a intro psych textbook from your library and read about it.

The general solution is to avoid those "triggers" when possible, or if you want to be rid of it, go to a counselor for "systematic desensitization".
Plenty of people close to wars have this problem, my Dad included, who could never enjoy fireworks after WWII.

Understanding that this is a fairly normal reaction to war will help, in and of itself. It's a normal human protection mechanism that has simply gone into overdrive. It happens a LOT, more so than you might think, because most vets don't want to talk about it.

Do you know what it is that triggers you? I sympathize, and I don't have any wisdom. Im writing because I watched Ken Burns' documentary (10 part, 18 hours) "Vietnam" earlier this year and was incredibly moved. I came away feeling more sympathy for the N. Vietnamese, and very angry at the American government. I saw the participants on the ground, all, as abused victims, and I felt deeply the raw, infuriating tragedy of the war. I thought the documentary was careful to incorporate all views, interviewing North and South Vietnamese soldiers, as well as Vietnamese-American soldiers.
This could be disturbing for you, especially as there are interviews with some N. Vietnamese soldiers who are unapologetic about their actions. I came away from viewing with more appreciation for the context that produced such horror, going back decades for the Vietnamese, and again, more sympathy.
I wish you well Nigel.

Perhaps you could explain why it does not bother you to go to Germany, a foe from 70 years ago that was the aggressor and killed many millions of innocents; but it bothers you to think about going to Vietnam, a foe from 50 years ago that was not an aggressor but was the subject of US and Chinese aggression, and which killed far fewer. What is the defining difference? Is it just your age, that you might have gone to Vietnam but for...?

I sort of understand as a lot of my family fought both in WWII and VietNam. I still have trouble visiting Germany but was pleased to see Berlin’s many memorials to the murdered Jews, gays, gypsies, etc.
With Viet Nam, we invaded their country at the behest of a corrupt South Vietnamese government. Watch Ken Burn’s documentary to get the whole story. It may help you. Friends and family who fought there are furious at our government, especially Robert McNamara, Secy of Defense, but, I do understand your feelings. We were welcomed in VietNam and were surprised by how well we were received by the locals. I also agree with looking at John McCain and his reactions to his return visits there.

Your view is totally understandable, rational, and appropriate. I avoided/escaped the Vietnam war because I didn't volunteer, had a II-S Deferment, and after the first lottery in Dec 1969 because of my number, which was marginally safe. All those I knew who were shipped over to Vietnam, either as draftees or volunteers, fortunately came back.

I take the view that this boycott of a country cannot last forever, one must come to his/her decision. If other vets eg J. McCain, (not just MCCain either) can bring themselves to go back, that is something to consider. It comes back to the ultimate question, if they can do it, why can't I? Vietnam wants American tourism.

I saw documentaries by PBS on the Beijing massacre in 1989, not pretty, and made the decision not to go there, while others I knew of or personally without having these moral compunctions (or even if they did) still went either professionally or as tourists.

If one country is the victim of another country's aggression, France invaded by Nazi Germany, then one asks what's about the French baby boomers I saw visiting Germany in 1971 and afterwards? Since 1963 the official Franco-German rapprochment effected by Adenauer and DeGaulle has existed and has been a cornerstone in both countries's foreign policy, regardless of the President or Chancellor is of the center right or center left.

Bottom line ...it is an individual decision, emotionally, rationally.

Nigel,
You probably relate to you're best friend getting killed and possibly have survivors guilt. That would help to explain your physical reaction to the subject. WW2 was family stories, the other is something you went through. If you want to get over it the answer is easy to see but would be difficult to accomplish.....go there.

There is one "interview" in the K Burns series where one of the former enemies, a VC, stately honestly before a ground combat was to take place said " we knew the Americans were determined to kill us just we were as determined to kill them." How very true,... war brutalises.

No, Nigel, you are not the only one here who feels this way. I think you have just taken your first steps towards understanding your feelings by writing ("first time ever") so eloquently about what you have labeled as "my problem". You have received some good advice and probably will receive more. My husband was in the Air Force during the Vietnam war and while he was not a pilot, we were stationed on an AF base along with F-105 pilots/airmen. We lost many good friends during that war and I can understand some of what you're feeling. My brother-in-law died of esophageal cancer, a disease suspected to be related to the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam (maybe that's on our own government?) while he was performing his duties on the ground as an Army Ranger. I relate to your feelings of not wanting to visit there and know that is NOT the way I want or should feel, so I try to do my best to learn more and keep an open mind. I'm sometimes successful at that and sometimes not. On another note, my Dad also served in WWII, (Army Air Force) stationed coincidently, just outside of London. Every time I use the Underground while visiting London, I wonder if it's one of the ones he sheltered in during the bombings. He would not talk about his experiences, either.

Nigel,

I want to echo what Jessica posted above about the recent Ken Burns PBS documentary on the Vietnam war. As luck would have it, I am currently in the midst of binge-watching it. It is one of the best series I have ever seen, and it does a great job of putting the war in context, history, contemporary thinking from all perspectives, etc. It is at times very difficult to watch, occasionally brutal, but it rings true and I think shows a very, very balanced view of the war. If you can stomach it, I would urge you to give it a try - if nothing else, see the first episode, which provides a solid historical introduction.

For context, I am probably a contemporary - I just BARELY missed having to decide what to do. I was a year or maybe two too young (they were taking plenty of boys just a year or two older than me; my "number" was not awful but no guarantee of safety. At the time, as a cocky 17 year old, I had already made up my mind that I would go to Canada before fighting in that war). So I was clearly against the war even back then. I subsequently learned a lot that cemented my choice not to go (honestly, being white, middle class, and headed for university I probably had several ways to avoid the war if I needed to). I thought of myself as someone who knew a lot about the conflict, but the Ken Burns documentary provided plenty of new, previously unknown-to-me insights. I really recommend it, I think you will be very glad if you watch it.

Good luck and take care.

There's a lot less promotion for tourism in Vietnam in the US, fewer Hollywood movies are set there than in Europe. In general it's not cited as a vacation destination the way Europe is. A couple of my friends traveled there last year and they loved it. But honestly I couldn't tell you what sights are there to see. I think there's been less exposure to it as a destination over the last decades. You haven't had time to get used to the idea of it, the way we see/hear about Europe all the time. When we do see Vietnam it's not as 'comfortable' a place, not as many 5 star hotels, etc. .... that's my impression.

Nigel,
I think you have every right in the world to feel as you do....you should have NO (oops left the no out in my first quick typing) concerns and no real apologies to others for where you do NOT feel like traveling nor the reasons why.

We visited Vietnam as part of a 16-night cruise (high-end small ship) from Singapore to Hong Kong. I had conflicted feelings going, but my husband wanted to experience real Asia (we had only been to Turkey as our technical visit to Asia, and he did not feel we had really visited Asia). I had thought about posting a trip report, but I just could not figure out my words, so I have not posted one.

But, growing up in a military family and having several of my young friends lose their dads, it was always hard for me to visit the Vietnam Memorial in DC without crying. Each time, I would tell myself I would not cry, and then guess what??

So, I did not know how I would feel visiting Vietnam. After the trip was planned, yes, I did watch PARTS of the Ken Burns documentary, and I realized I was such a kid during the war, I didn't really realize all the various issues about the war and whether we should or should not have been there as a country. I could not sleep the nights I watched the documentary, so I did not watch much of it....I kept thinking about the horrors of it all.

Many of our friends had visited Vietnam recently (loved it and commented how kind the people were) , and many of our friends who were stationed there either as medics or soldiers swore they would never go back...no interest whatsoever. I truly did not know what to expect.

I could see a difference between the Vietnam people who grew up in the south vs. those who grew up in the north. We were welcomed and on the surface, one did not feel anything odd. BUT, on one of our small bus shore excursions, someone asked our guide (who apparently was raised in the north) if they hated Americans. He first said he was not allowed to talk about politics, then went on to say there are two parts or two different answers to that question. #1 "We hate Americans, but we love your dollars." #2 (I don't recall his exact words, but the typical Chamber of Commerce answer along the line of it is a new day, a new century and we move forward blah blah blah). #3, then he sort of chuckled and then said, "So we hate you, but we LOVE your dollars." which I took to mean what HE really thought.

Later I very quietly, kindly and softly engaged him privately, saying that I hope someday he will have a job where he does not have to guide people he hates. I went on to say that he does not know me and he does not know my husband,and he does not know anyone else in our group, and to blanketly tell people that he hates them, that is not fair.l I went on to explain that several of my friends' fathers were killed in the war, that many Americans did not want to come here to fight...they were forced to or would have had to go to jail. It is okay to hate a government, but do not hate people you have not met. He sincerely apologized (and I think that was in part due to fear of losing his job, but I do think it was really more sincere than that). It was a longer conversation, but it would take up way too much space to type it all here, so I provide just the highlights.

Later, another person on the cruise was telling me about her day trip to Hanoi. Her guide told them how after the war, when masses of people were starving in the large cities, even though her family were rice farmers,they could only keep about a cup of rice each week, and they were given 4 small pieces of meat....the government forced them to turn over their rice for the population as a whole. She explained that to live there were roof chickens, ground chickens, and barking chickens (cats, rats/mice, dogs). She asked everyone to please not judge, unless in their lives they had truly been starving.....wow!! (running out of room..see next post)

Continued.........

Then it occurred to me that the young man who was guiding earlier in the trip was likely raised by parents/grandparents who experienced that starvation. That could make some really deep hard-to-resolve hatred toward a country. I realized I had never (thankfully) been thru something like that.

Another day, we visited a house of a farmer and his wife....fascinating to see how they live. They were kind and welcomed us and we had full run of the small house. In the living room was a photo of him in his North Vietnamese army uniform. He was amazed at how large my husband's wrists were, and he kept looking at him and asking him if he had been there for the war (he had not). We later wondered if he thought he recognized him. He had taken his fingers and tried to circle my husband's wrists,but could not. He really seemed to bond with my husband that day. The farm, chickens, plants, etc. were fascinating. They lived a humble life, but the overall guide told us later they would soon be rich as his little farm was in a redevelopment area and would be bought out for a lot.

We also visited the chi chu tunnels. The local guides there talked very matter of fact about how each trap will kill "American soldier." I'm glad I had looked on Trip Advisor ahead of time to see the devices, or I may not have been emotionally prepared for that.....it still hit me deep in my heart. It also made me realize that sometimes the largest military budget does not always win over local resourcefulness and home-court advantage.

The country was also very polluted. I asked another local guide what the typical person there worries about...quietly he quickly said: food poisoning and pollution.

My husband who almost never gets sick came home with the worst sinus infection...not sure exactly what caused it, but we suspect the pollution. It took a doctor's visit , a week in bed, and a z-pack (after a negative flu test) to knock it out of him. We took painting masks, and I wore mine more than he wore his. In Saigon, almost all the locals (except seemingly the young men who smoke a lot, were were told) wear masks regularly and some wear things that almost cover their entire head while on their little motorcycles, of which there are 1,000s.

I usually and glowingly am excited to encourage other people to travel to where I last went. My friends could all tell it was different this time when I described the trip as educational but not something I think someone simply must do.

So Nigel, perfectly fine to sit out Vietnam. In all my travels, this was one of my least favorite places.

As we were flying home, we read in The Wall Street Journal that the US had just sent an aircraft carrier or some other ship to help protect the coastal waters of Vietnam from China. I hope the people there are appreciative, truly appreciative. An on-board speaker was truly educational about the threat in the South China Sea. I had read a lot, but the speaker really connected the dots. Lots of island building by China and complete disregard for coastal water rights.

I hope Vietnam truly does NOW love more than our dollars.

Continued......some final thoughts.

I will add that it was fascinating to see the local markets, the fishing (some really odd-looking boats), the ladies carrying baskets on each side of the long pole that is stereotypical Vietnam, the water buffalo was thrilling to see (and I think I said something like: "That looks just like Vietnam."....DUH!!!). Some of the large cities are being turned into lovely modern cities, yet pollution is bad. Ha Long Bay could have been lovely, but the smog never gave us the photo that we saw on-line or in a brochure. I wondered when they took such clear, lovely photos.
The old fishing boats along the Mekong river delta were also so expectedly Vietnam. Seeing rubber trees was fascinating and made me pay more attention to an article about non-botanical rubber-like material that is being explored again by tire companies (apparently this did not work years ago, but they are trying again).

Travel does open one's eyes. We had lots of back-door experiences...too many to list and bore people with here....but I can't help but feel I am a better person for having gone. And, I hope that maybe, just maybe, by speaking so kindly and candidly with the one guide, MAYBE it helped to make a difference and some healing may have begun (or not).

With all of the challenges we face in the US, gosh it sure was good to get home.

Singapore is a whole other story....no crime, no gun problems, no pollution, safe food, very clean.....but some say it is somewhat of an oppressive society under the surface. Their problem is finding enough people to fill all the technology jobs so they can continue to grow that industry. We are told it used to be polluted, cess-pool is the term that was used to describe the past by one taxi driver, but major changes were made......very costly to get a certificate to buy a car and then the certificate must be renewed every 10 years at the same high cost. Therefore, people typically buy new cars instead (which keeps down pollution and also keeps many from buying cars,so they use mass transit instead....it seems to work for the society as a whole.

Somewhere between Singapore's approach and the US, there has to be a happy medium. Let's hope our country finds it.

Thank you, Maggie, for the thoughtful and poignant reply.

I am sorry to hear that you have this problem. I don't think there is a simple answer or solution. We all handle it in different ways based on personal experiences. I went in '67 and fortunately became an armorer in the Quartermaster corp. I was one of the 8 or more personnel that are necessary to keep one guy supplied on the front line. So I don't have a lot of dark memories but did lose a couple of good friends. It is part of my past but I closed that door and try not to look back. I have no real interested in visiting VN for whatever reason. I could not watch the Burn's program because I didn't want to dig up the past. My cheap psychology says you may be dealing with some issues of guilt because you didn't serve. That is understandable but a whole lot of people didn't serve so I am not sure how you lift that self imposed guilt. Don't know if you can just ignore it. Assumed you have tried that and it is not working. Good luck.

I'm of a different generation (so no possibility to be involved in Vietnam, was not born yet) but I am not sure I understand your comment. The Vietnamese were in a brutal civil war; they were also tired of being colonized by the French. They didn't ask the US soldiers or their allies to go in and get involved, and they weren't about to go down without a fight - they did not provoke the US into getting involved (the Communist paranoia, "Domino Theory", and other factors were responsible for that). You have to remember how many of their people were killed, by other Vietnamese and foreign soldiers. Yet many, many Vietnamese "boat people" immigrated to the States in the early 80s - and many wanted desperately to hop on those helicopters to get them out before the US finally left. It doesn't seem to me that the Vietnamese have ill will toward Americans in spite of that awful intervention into their civil war. If anything, I would expect a lot more ill-will and aversion on their part, but they have chosen to move on, try to rebuild their country, and progress economically. I would recommend the Ken Burns documentary as well, in addition to "Fog of War" narrated by Robert McNamera (it's like a giant confessional of errors, missteps, miscalculations, and plain wishful thinking). The former showed several positive instances of reconciliation and efforts from some former soldiers who came back to Vietnam to contribute something to the Vietnamese people (funding for schools, educational and cultural curricula, etc.). Vietnam is a relatively poor country compared to the US and their people have suffered tremendously - not to mention the use of DDT and napalm during the war which maimed innocent Vietnamese, including children, for generations and decimated entire villages. And then there were other atrocities like My Lai against unarmed civilians.

Everyone I know who has been there (including a friend who taught English there as part of a State Department fellowship) had a very positive experience in Vietnam. I would go there myself as I have no ill feelings or scruples about their country or their people. My distant relatives in Poland were affected as the Germans and Russians invaded Warsaw, and yet Germany is the largest (or one of the largest) investors in Poland and there's no ill-will toward Germans despite the war.

Perhaps don’t read any of the forum posts that have the word Viet Nam in it. Simple, but could be effective.

Germany & Italy as the Axis powers were defeated and their evil leaders met their end. Neither country is now trying to conquer the world. It makes it reasonably easy to like these countries and their people.

Vietnam fell to the commie dictatorship which continues to subjugate its people. It understandable Vietnam is in a different category than Italy and Germany as far as 'likability' is concerned.

Thanks guys.

Plenty to digest.

We have a PBS channel here which mostly shows ancient history (you know, Custer and Lincoln and such) but I willkeep an eye out.

I'll digest more tomorrow.

Thanks again.

Keep writing.

Nigel, I'm guessing your issues have mostly to do with losing your best friend that way. I was born in 60 so missed out on being worried about that war thank goodness! My daughter lost her best friends shortly after graduation at the age of 18. It affected her way more than I would have ever thought. She's now 36 and still very sensitive if I bring up anything to do with her best friend. It's still very raw for her. I suspect it has some to do with having it happen at the age of 18. It's a very important time in life developmentally, especially regarding close relationships. I doubt I'm much help, but I do hope you can work around it and stay on the forum as you are such a valuable and treasured contributor!!!

Nigel, I didn't lose anyone in Vietnam but I'm with you and refuse to go there for a "vacation."

I'm someone who did serve in Viet Nam and I fully understand your feelings. It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around ever wanting to visit there as a civilian, obviously things have changed quite a bit in the over 40 years since the war ended, and what I see in the media it is different than my experience of what I saw of the cities. I had a friend go there about 8 years ago, to me at the time it just seemed odd, probably because I still pictured it as I remembered it and also the fall to the communist north played into that thought too. Different generations have different perspectives on war in their lifetime versus war they read in the history books. My father served in the Army Air Corp during WWII, he died when I was very young so I never had the opportunity to talk to him about his experience, something I'd give just about anything for. To gain a perspective I did tour the WWII battlefields to get a sense of what it was like (the best you can in modern times), it is something I'm glad I did, however I have no intention of visiting Viet Nam, I want to leave that part of my life behind. Something that was upsetting to me occurred on the tv show the Amazing Race, about 5 years ago they did a segment in Viet Nam and actually sent the contestants to a war memorial that is a downed American B52, it's their country and they are entitled to remember the war as they please but for an American television show to use it as a prop in their production was sad to say the least.

Nigel, I think I understand. I just missed being old enough for the draft. But I grew up with the war. I don't know anyone who died, but many, many who served. I think it is hard for people not of that generation to understand how deep and pervasive the war was in daily life, and how corrosive an impact it had on our society and culture. It was personal. The memory of seeing week after week of body counts on the nightly news was something unimaginable now, and the place names of battles and tragedies are permanent memories.
So when I hear people going there now, as a new foodie/beach experience, out of curiosity, or as a trendy new destination, I feel uncomfortable. As if it is disrespectful of the people who had to go there, and never came back. But I also realize that the Vietnam War is more distant to us now, than WWII was to us when we were growing up. Not surprising that younger people consider it ancient history.
I actually had a conversation along these lines last week with a young college student from Vietnam. As she talked of how beautiful her country was and how proud she was of how it was changing for the better, I told her that for many of us, it was strange to think of visiting there as a tourist because of the war. She told me that while her parents suffered greatly during the war, neither they nor her generation dwell on it, and are more interested in a prosperous future.

I've never really thought about going there before, but if I did, I would I certainly go there with a sense of honoring the collective memories of part of our history. And maybe intent is what matters.

I may be naive and this won't help you much with your issues, but I don't understand the whole logic of not wanting to visit a place because something bad happened there, nor hating a whole race of people because they were involved. We, the French originally and then the US and it's allies, were the aggressors, the Vietnamese people were caught in the middle. We, and by we I mean the advocates of democracy, apparently didn't realize (or just ignored the fact) that you couldn't stop communism by destroying countries and slaughtering their people.

I lived through Vietnam, although being a female did not have to worry about the draft. I know boys who served, including a couple who died but they weren't close to me, just friends of friends. My roommate's brother came back with injuries - both physical and psychological. I can't imagine what it was like to be a young man of serving age eligible for the draft wondering when the next mail delivery would bring 'that' letter, let alone those who actually ended up having to go. So it's hard for me to empathize with those who were in that position and those who suffered loses and those who have lingering issues such as yours.

I appreciate all the knowledge and experience that you share on this forum and I sincerely hope that you are able to resolve the emotional pain you're suffering. And I don't think anybody's going to say you should go to Vietnam for a vacation while you feel this way. If you do manage to come to grips with your feelings, it might even be helpful to visit as a learning and healing experience. Many who served and fought there have mended by going there, just as many who fought in WWII by going to Europe.

Something that was upsetting to me occurred on the tv show the Amazing Race, about 5 years ago they did a segment in Viet Nam and actually sent the contestants to a war memorial that is a downed American B52, it's their country and they are entitled to remember the war as they please but for an American television show to use it as a prop in their production was sad to say the least.

Sure glad I did not see that episode. Right after throwing up on the carpet, I probably would have hurled my chair at the TV.
I guess they figured a 'clue box' on the Arizona Memorial would be 'over the line'

Its more than 'sad', its absolutely shameful.

I've talked to numerous US vets who were part of the war, be they Marines or Army. Among them were those who had been back to Vietnam as a tourist/visitor, a couple more than once, ordinary guys, not officers. They urge visiting Vietnam. Of course, there were a couple of vets who didn't really want to discuss the war with me since the main difference between them and me is that I wasn't there and that I could not possibly understand. Any soldier in any war can assert likewise. In WW2 if one had not been in Normandy be they German or US or Br/Can. how could you understand?

On not visiting a country because of past history, numerous examples can be cited. A person's moral compunctions against some place while valid pertaining to that individual is going to be ignored, disregarded, rendered irrelevant by those without such moral compunctions and will proceed to visit the country in question, be it Vietnam, China, Germany, Japan, Russia, etc.

Nigel,

It does not matter why you feel the way you do. You feel that way and that's that. And I accept that. And so should others. Period. And you certainly do not have to apologize to anyone on the forum for your feelings. I've got some hang ups of my own about that subject and I suspect many others do also.

With regard as to how to deal with your feelings, I'm not really qualified by education or training to offer advice. Personally there are things that I just have to mentally block out and ignore. I say that knowing full well it's much easier said than done.

Whatever you do, please don't leave the forum. You are a true asset and your advice would be greatly missed.

Nigel.....you go on and continue feeling the way you want. If you don't want to go somewhere for whatever reason, don't go. You don't have to answer to anyone. There is nothing wrong with it.

While I will not go into details because I don't want to start a flame war, there are places I have no desire to go to or get upset when I hear people rave about the place. What I do is write a response on the forum telling them exactly how I feel and why...........and then I erase it. Posting it would not be beneficial to anyone but writing out my response helps me to release it.

Writing can be cathartic. So write responses to posts that make you angry. Just don't send them. The act of writing it all out is all you need.

Watching a documentary will not make you heal. It will probably just make you angrier. I know that is my experience.

"Writing can be cathartic. So write resonponses to posts that make you angry. Just don't send them. The act of writing it all out is all you need."

Excellent advice, Frank II. I do this often but not necessarily on this forum!

Nigel,

I was truly saddened to read your post and to hear how upsetting this issue has been for you. I was hoping to have some insightful thoughts that might help but even after reading your post three times, no great suggestions have come to mind.

I remember the Vietnam war quite well, even now. It was covered in great detail every night on the evening news with Walter Cronkite, but at the time I didn't really understand what it was all about. As a Canadian my circumstances and perspective were different and I wasn't concerned about being drafted, although I was certainly of the right age. Some of the people I graduated with in the '60s reportedly went to the U.S. and enlisted but I have no idea what happened to them.

I also had relatives that were "dodging bullet & bombs" in WW-II, and two more that were doing the same in WW-I in Europe and Iraq / Kuwait (then called Mesopotamia). I also love visiting Germany, France, Italy and other countries in Europe that were involved in the war, but don't relate that to my family being there during the war. That was a long time ago, and it's now a much different world.

I do have a few initial impressions but it's late and I'm not articulating my thoughts well......

• given your sensitivity to anything concerning Vietnam, it would be best to avoid reading any posts about that subject, since that seems to be the trigger that causes your adverse physical symptoms and melancholy. That includes listening to any of Rick's interviews on the subject.
• you might consider speaking with a Counsellor or Psychologist to better understand your feelings and how to deal with them. If you have an Employee Assistance Plan, that would help.
• focus on the things you do enjoy on this forum (and are very good at) - providing incredibly helpful advice to travellers about Europe.

"How do you deal with it?" I've looked at the history of the Vietnam War (both with the U.S. involvement, and also the French and later the brief conflict with China in the late '70s), but tend to think of it more from a historical and analytical perspective much the same as I do with WW-II. I don't have any connections to Vietnam that make it "personal". I've briefly looked at taking a trip there but nothing in that part of the world interests me, so I prefer to spend my dwindling travel funds on Europe, which does interest me.

"Or have you forgotten about it?" No, I haven't forgotten about it. I think about it from time-to-time, especially on Remembrance Day as the parades here now have a contingent of Vietnam vets. I know a few of them, but never talk to them about those days. That was a long time ago, and I don't want to dredge up unpleasant memories.

I'll have to ponder this for awhile, and may have a few further thoughts later.

Re: Germany investing in Poland, the amount of that, and ill-will towards them in Poland. I certainly did not detect any of that in my 3 trips there from 2001 to 2005. Those Poles, whom I encountered and knew the language, certainly did not show any aversion to speaking it then or on my last two trips in border towns east of Küstrin an der Oder. When you go over to the east side of the Oder, you can basically expect numerous Poles in the service industry (cafes, motels, restaurants) to speak German.

There are numerous joint projects between Poles and Germans on restoring castles, etc located in former German areas, such as in Silesia, West Prussia, Upper Silesia, Pomerania. I saw .evidence of this at Malbork castle in 2003., eg, signs in German explaining these joint cooperative projects, such as restoring, refurbishing former Prussian castles.

We have a PBS channel here which mostly shows ancient history (you know, Custer and Lincoln and such) but I will keep an eye out.

PBS America in the UK started running the full version of Burns' "The Vietnam War" a couple of weeks ago. (The shorter international edit was on BBC Two last year.) Episode 3 which covers from the beginning of 1964 is on Wednesday 25 April at 21:05, and repeated three further times, should you decide you want to see it. The earlier two episodes may be available for download or streaming depending on what TV services you may have.

This absolutely makes sense. But it's perspective, which is different for each one of us. My grandfather was in Normandy in WWII, and my father was in the Korean War. Still, my father loves military history, and we always watched documentaries and visited historic sites. War is dreadful for both sides, and I think people pay homage by visiting these sites.

You are an informed poster, always on topic here. I've appreciated your comments in other threads and think this forum would feel a loss if you decided to leave it. Part of what makes this a great forum is that we all have different perspectives and ideas, and we get to choose what to take and what to leave.

I guarantee people will beat me up for saying this.

I am a veteran, 23 years total with Air Force and Air National Guard. I've flown B-52s along the Korean DMZ. My father was on a destroyer off the coast of North Korea during the Korean War. My grandfather was artillery in WWI. I've litterally had relatives in every war going back to the Revolutionary War. At least one relative is buried at Gettysburg (from Kansas).

I've also served in the Washington State legislature (and interacted with Rick).

This is an opinion, maybe right, maybe wrong, built on observation. There is an unusual positive attraction toward communist and/or totalitarian states from the left of center in our country. It's their business and I don't really make a point of criticizing it, but the same people who can't figure out why a redneck would put a confederate flag sticker on his car happily wear a Che Guevara t-shirt.

Viet Nam is an authoritarian country, based on a socialist/communist model. So are Indonesia, China, Cuba, North Korea and more. Iran is also an authoritarian state, based on theocracy. I'm in no hurry to visit those countries. I might eventually, but the form of government makes me think twice, it doesn't attract me. Experience has taught me that individual rights, including yours, are never respected in such places.

Actually I have been to the DMZ in Korea. I've had cameras with giant lenses take photos of me, from a safe distance, so intelligence can later build a file on myself, my family, my rank, my role. I was briefed to keep a poker face, not to smile or frown because either could and would be used for propaganda purposes.

Flying along the DMZ, I've had radio communication, from the north, in perfect English say, "Aircraft flying heading 085, turn to heading 010 or prepared to be fired upon." Knowing full well that if we did turn to 010, we would be fired on.

Personally I think the people of these countries are victimized by their governments (look at Venezuela currently). When westerners travel there and drop hard currency they are helping maintain a failing system of government.

In 1970, I turned 18. I was eligible for the draft, but my number was just high enough that no draft took me. I was totally uninterested in "serving" in that war. "Service" in my view involved being in the military protecting our country. I never saw Vietnam that way. So, I did not "serve". I also did not protest, since many of the protests turned out to be loot-a-ramas, in which local businesses had stuff stolen. I didn't care for either side. I didn't spit on people, I pretty much stayed on the sidelines.

As to Vietnam, while we were there, the Vietnamese didn't ask for our "help". The Vietnamese people defended their country. We were not doing a good thing sticking our big fat American oar into their business. Yes, it all became communist. Yes, bad things happened. Had we not gotten into that war, who knows what would have happened? Uncle Ho wanted help getting rid of the colonial oppressors, the French, and would have taken US help to do so. It's an interesting question as to what would have happened if we had done that.

I'm in Washington DC at a scientific meeting. Just coincidentally, the same hotel is being used for a Wounded Warrior convention. Men and women, most missing feet. One guy lost all his fingers on his left hand. The dead are gone The wounded live on, with their missing parts. In Vietnam, there were wounded on our side, wounded on their side.

It was a bad war. The US lost. The commies won. I'm glad the war is over.

Now if we can only figure out how to get our losing butts out of Iraq and Afghanistan, that would be good.

So, to finish the scattered thoughts here, the people to blame are JFK, Johnson, and Nixon. Also Eisenhower. They got us into that idiotic war. Wars are too important to enter into casually. I can't think of a war that we have engaged in since WWII which I consider "legitimate". In fact, in all our history (the US), I consider WWII and the Civil War (1861-1865) the only legitimate wars that we engaged in. WWI? I doubt we had a stake in that war. My two grandfathers were in that war, one in the Austria-Hungary Army, one in the US Army. The Civil War? Probably legit. Most of the others are simply American aggression, and illegitimate. The Iraq, Afghan, Kuwait wars? Total war crimes. Bush should have been tried for war crimes for that one.

As to the comment of Tom_MN about the Ken Burns documentary: I did not hear gloating. I did hear the sound of legitimate Vietnamese thoughts. We killed a lot of Vietnamese, and there was a lot of suffering. But the Vietnamese from the North won. It's not gloating to say "We won". I found their stories to be very interesting. There were 2 sides to Vietnam, and most Americans never heard the Vietnamese side before that documentary.

Paul, excellent post. Thank you.

`Thank you Paul. I agree on the aggressions—Now, that doesn’t erase that so many of our peers, whether voluntarily or drafted against their will, were sent over, marked forever, wounded, POW or died.

I’m glad you spoke up, Nigel. It reminds me of all the veterans who are homeless or suffering to this day.

As for the outcome: totalitarian, yes, Communist, no longer. You can get as much KFC, Prada, and Louis Vuitton as you want. Capitalism and individual enterprise are everywhere. It’s different from the country that sent its people to re-education camps and expelled others. But still totalitarian.

Half the country is under 30 and didn’t live the war. The young people even look different: taller, filled out, more mature than the photos and news clips from the sixties and seventies. Luckily for them, time has moved on. I hope it does for all the others affected.

I understand you completely Nigel. One of the smartest boys in my high school graduating class of 1967 enlisted in the Marines instead of going directly to college. He was dead before he was 20. A stupid terrible mistake of a war. Politicians called the anti-war protesters "criminals", now history shows us who the criminals really were.

Logically, the United States is much more to blame than the current nation of Viet Nam. But I have no interest in visiting there.

Sometimes fiction is helpful in working out things in our heads. The Sympathizer by Viet Thanh Nguyen was excellent. But, Nigel, you probably should not start with this book. It's not easy, and can be pretty disturbing. I bring it up because some of the others might like it.

Oh, and about your comment that you don't want to "bore the younger folk." They probably should read this thread. They'll have their own demons in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria...

I was 20 when the first draft lottery took place in Dec 1969; listening what number my birthday would fall on, I realised my fate was entirely connected with that lottery. Obviously, someone has to be # 1, just as someone is #365. On my first Europe trip in 1971, I met a guy who was in the US Army and whose number in that lottery was #1. He claimed he was #1 since the date he gave stuck in my mind as it is also my mother's birthday. That was in the HI hostel in Heidelberg in August,

I didn't notice either any gloating on the K Burns series by the former enemies, regardless of how you might critique his series. There are historical flaws, certain scenes which he could have added from the S. Karnow docum, "Vietnam: A Television History." A few of the NVA questioned whether it had been worth it with a minimum of one million in losses, aside from the physical destruction. Their political leadership was prepared to lose even more in order to prevail and win.

Unpleasant as it is, since I lived through these Vietnam war years, was aware of it since 1964, etc, followed it on the CBS nightly news, I watch the documentaries on the aspects of the war put out by PBS, CBS, History Channel, etc, etc. and look upon the topic in terms of war history and an aspect of the Cold War.

On the war experience in WW1 with the Austro-Hungarian Army, the simple and basic fact is that it bled to death in operations against the Serbs and Russians. Numerous reasons account for the absolutely horrific losses suffered by the A-H troops in the first two years of the war. See the Army Museum in Vienna, the HGM, not far from Wien Hbf, to get a different perspective since in anglophone historiography on WW1 pertaining to the Eastern Front and the Austrians is not often treated unlike the Western Front on the Somme, Ypres, and Verdun.

Fred: For some very interesting history about the start of the Great War, see James Lyon "Serbia and the Balkan Front, 1914: The Outbreak of the Great War", which goes into great detail about the first year of the war, showing the shocking outcome for A-H in its failure to crush the Serbian mosquito early in the conflict. Of course, Serbia was badly damaged as the war proceeded, but the start of the war was nothing like Vienna expected.

Also, for the general reader, "Sleepwalkers" is excellent. It goes through the rational of the 6 key powers in the months before the war, and lays out in great clarity the interlocking relationships which operated to draw them into conflict. The US was not mentioned. We had no dog in that fight. We joined in, and I am still unclear as to why. Yes, the German/A-H/Turkish side sank some of our ships. Other than that, I still do not see our vested or key interest.

@ Paul....Thanks for the tip on the J.Lyon book, the title gives it away as to his primary focus. I was not aware of it in terms of WW1 historiography on the origins.

On "The Sleepwalkers" it is no accident that C Clark starts his narrative/analysis with the gruesome events of 1903 in Serbia, whom Conrad called the "nest of vipers." "The Sleepwalkers" is excellent, balanced, erudite, critical, Clark is no fan of the Fischer Thesis. Clark's book also appears in German translation.

Thanks to everybody.

You have given me much to think about - far more than I can contemplate quickly. But contemplating I am.

Thanks to Marco for providing the broadcast time for the documentary part 3. I have missed the first 2 episodes this time around but have set the recorder and as we speak it is recording part 3. My goodness each episode is long!!

Honestly I don't know when - or if - I will watch them, it may be quite painful and I will have to be ready. But onto the satellite recorder they go, just waiting for that moment.

I could go down the long list of people helping but have to go to bed after a 2 am start this morning - I'm a zombie - but I don't want to be superficial. Just know that when I called for help you helped. And that is important. We are a family here. And thanks for not judging. Even the very first (before it was modified) reply. Thanks for taking the time, and for those for whom I've surfaced tough memories thanks for helping me too.

This will take a little time. I've taken 50 years to get here and while it won't take 50 to get back it won't be overnight.

Thanks again.

Keep writing...

Dear Nigel: It truly is interesting that Vietnam evokes this feeling in you, when European theaters do not. Cruelty and savagery were, surely, present in all of these places, yet the one in particular won't let you forget it and consider other elements of its history and culture. My very uninformed guess is that this might have something to do with the fact that Vietnam was your "generation's" war, which you witnessed played out not just in history books but on tv and in the lives of people you cared about at the very time (not meeting someone later who had suffered years before). I imagine most of it is simply very human -- sometimes there's just no logically explaining things that worry or revolt -- or delight -- us.

You're very brave to speak out about this so honestly, and I hope that your vulnerability in doing so is not taken advantage of.

As far as John McCain, it's true that he somehow was able to "turn the other cheek," as they say. But that was clearly so extraordinary as to not be of much comparative use to the normal person, I would think!! I worked for him and the other Senators on the Senate's Select Committee to investigate the POWs and MIAs in the early 1990s -- he and John Kerry and Bob Kerrey truly were devoted to learning what had happened and trying to understand what kind of relationship we could build with the Vietnamese government. I've always believed that was because of the Vietnamese people living under the regime that they hoped to help. Working there was about the only way that I learned about the Vietnam war -- I was too young when it was happening to understand, and it wasn't taught beyond a very superficial level at school, so being immersed in it there on the Committee was a bit my university-level course in it.

For me it is clear that events like losing your friend and things happened to people you cared about during the war in Vietnam had understandably a deep emotional impact and made what happened there very personal. But as I can read your story there was not enough room to deal with the emotions involved, likely pushed away and are coming back in the form of hypersensitivity with things related to the conflict and really starting to bother you. You are right you want to do something about it.

As you can see we take your problem serious and that gives you luckely a positive feeling. Nevertheless the good intentions here on the forum, but see if the support here is enough for dealing with your unprocessed emotions of the past. It is possible it can work, so much the better, but if you keep struggling and feel ready for it I think it is better to ask for help from people you can speak in person. As most are not professionals and not trained to help people with unprocessed emotions don’t hesitate considering help from a professional, as I think this is too serious not to be cured. And asking for this kind of help is nothing to be ashamed about.

Thanks again.

Raising it here, just the act of writing it down has helped. Talking to all of you - and listening to what you all have said has helped, too. I will say that I do have a certain amount of anxiety when I scroll down the list of recorded TV shows I have and see the episode that I recorded after suggestions here. I think that when I get used to seeing it in the directory - don't know when that will be - I may have a look at a bit of it. As I set it up to record the series I expect that I will get another episode this week.

You guys are good.

I love this place and don't expect to go anywhere.... (except Europe next month).....

I was born after the Vietnam war ended. I am Jewish according to heritage. My direct ancestors all immigrated from North east Europe to the USA in 1924 or earlier, well before world was II. I am going to Greece in October. According to gut instinct I don’t feel afraid to go to Greece even though during World war II, Greece was one of the Nazi occupied countried, and almost all of the Jews in Greece were taken to death or concentration camps and killed, during the war. Also, I will be visitng Crete briefly, and I am vaguely aware that there was the battle of Crete.

All the arab countries and majority muslum countries are probably off limits to me due to mere genetic accident. Fortunately, USA passports do not specify if you are Jewish, but I heard that if you are Jewish and the Israeli’s have stamped your passport, you cannot or should not use that same passport to visit any of the arab or muslum countries. I am not sure if this rule applies to everybody or just Jews.

I am not sure if my reply should be helpful; I feel like most of Europe is a reasonable safe place to visit now, although it is possible that Europe’s Jews are being replaced with muslums and/or people from the middle eastern countries who may have been brainwashed to hate Israel and/or Jewish people. Vietnam is still communist; I despise communism; I probably would not visit Vietnam or any communist country. But I would consider visiting Germany and/or East Europe.

Oh, Mike L, enough of that for now. I have read a couple of your most recent posts.

Israel doesn't t stamp passports. When you enter you get a card with your photo and personal info and another when you leave. This way, there is no permanent record in your passport of your visit.

I have been lucky to visit much of Europe and not once have I been worried about being arrested by the Gestapo--or Partisans.

Well there was that one time in Paris when I was treated as being subhuman. But that wasn't the Gestapo, it was a waiter.

Nigel,

I'm happy to hear that you're getting the problem sorted. Hope you have a wonderful time on your upcoming trip to Europe!

During the Cold War years I had no moral compunctions in spite of detesting Soviet communism imposed on eastern and east central Europe on visiting commie countries in the Soviet bloc....it was more of a matter of guts on my part as a US backpacker going there solo, which weren't always there, along with time too.

In July 1973 I went to the CSSR, known officially as such then, got the mandatory visa in Paris, and did this intended trip to Prague from Nürnberg direct by train, stayed at university dorm room...spartan but OK. In 1977 I intended to return to the CSSR, this time to Pilsen from Vienna, got the mandatory visa in Vienna, ended up not going because the thought of transferring at night in the CSSR wasn't too appealing....that was certainly a matter guts lacking. I would have gone to Poland too, at least to Poznan but never ended up doing it.

If Americans have concerns now, other than safety, moral, historical, political, ...you name it... of going to any European country, there are esp in the summer tons of international tourists, tour groups or individuals holding no such concerns and are going to Europe, in some places inundating it, ie your absence from theses places...Barcelona, Rome, Paris, Zell am See, Versailles, Milan, Berlin, etc, etc ...is being replaced by others world wide.

Hi Nigel. I'm sorry you are struggling with this, and for me, it seems that this issue is bigger than whether or not you should visit Viet Nam, but rather more about your emotional well being. When our difficulties begin to interfere with social activities (which this forum is for you), than I really think it's time to begin working through it with a trained individual. Desensitization therapy coupled with cognitive behavior counseling will really make you feel better (and have you continue to be a part of this forum) and understand how your thinking is influencing emotions and behavioral reactions. This kind of approach to coping does not have to be a long commitment (8-12 weeks is typical). I'm not suggesting that you should not feel a certain way about the experiences you had and you definitely are not the only one to feel this way, but the goal is to be able to effectively cope with your feelings and emotions. All the best!

Hi Nigel and other friends,

I'm so sorry for your lost, especially they're people around you, growing up, sharing all thoughts with you... I never experienced this lost, but I know it's a tremendous horrible feeling that no one ever want to confront in life. I was grown up when the war ended for a long time, and luckily all my grandparents has survived during this hard period. Perhaps I don't know how much painful and delorous I had suffered during many years, but I truly understand how the war affected and ruined our lives; what it left is only grief and torment.

What I really want to tell you is, we all don't have guilt because of what happened. War, in nature, is meaningless, is nonsense. We can't change the fact nor what happened. What we can do is to move forward. At least war gives us a big lesson: how devastated it is to the humanity, so we need to appreciate the peace we have right now, and try by all worth to avoid the war.

Most importantly, My parents taught me that: you forgive others, you also forgive yourself. Just let anything related to the war in the past, and you will feel better.

To Maggie, about the story you experienced with your tourguide, I'm so sorry. What I want to say is, you can't expect all people around you to be nice. I think he was already so regretful after saying those things. Maybe he was unaware of the situation, or he also experienced tragic consequence after the war so He can't forgive easily.
I'm also North Vietnamese too. But I don't think there are still many people having negative thoughts about America. We're already moved on, at least people around me. 3 of my English teachers are Americans, and what I feel about them is they are very nice teachers, having taught me knowledge to widen my prospective.

To Nigel, maybe Vietnam is not the country we expect to travel. I must admit we have a lot of problems now such as: pollution, traffic... But we still have some things we're really proud of: patriotism, history, culture, variety of ethnic groups... It's not all about negative things.

I'm still a student. Maybe I don't have much experience to talk about this topic, or I said something wrong below. Please forgive me if I did that!

Best wishes from Vietnam,
Duc

I am acquainted with Americans who have gone to Vietnam as tourists in the last 20 years on guided tours...all were positive about their experiences, ( they didn't even think about the war there), just as I know of Americans, regardless of their ethnic background, having gone to China, lots of them since the mid-1980s in what ever capacity, teaching, church related, tourists, business, etc

ducpa, your post is very nice and thoughtful. Thank you.

Hi ducpa,

Nevertheless being an outsider in this I want to say that your post impresses me and is insightful. I can’t speak for others, but forgiving as a helping hand opens the way to deal with emotions and helps healing wounds and see the past in another, hopefully more positive perspective. Seen the subject is so delicate not everybody wants understandably talk about it in public, like here on the forum. So maybe you received some PM’s, but I think and hope that your post is appreciated by those who feel the need to talk but prefer staying anonymous.

Hello ducpa. I want to say thank you for posting this considerate and thoughtful post. It is generous of you to share your thoughts and your advice to forgive and move forward is constructive.

Hello Nigel.

I wish I has sage advice, but I'm glad to see others do. I'm a frequent browser of this forum - I find it rich in information and perspective and above all respectful and very enjoyable. I don't post much but I thought that rather than say nothing. I should say something...

Nigel, your posts are knowledgeable, helpful, kind and sometimes wryly humourous. You give a lot to the forum and to readers like me.

I hope you can get some more answers and some more peace.

Good luck!