Plan: Buy a used sports car in Europe, spend a year touring, sell car when finished

The first question that requires answering is your ability to be allowed in the EU for a year. Unless you're an EU citizen or have the appropriate visas you can only travel within the Schengen area of the EU for 90 days in a 180 day period. This will have a big impact on your plans and if you cannot surmount this issue then your dream may not be achievable.

You might consider leasing a car. There have been posts about it on this forum, all positive.

Putting aside visa considerations "for now" will only make the reality hurt more when you do decide to deal with it. It won't get any easier.

You dream sounds like fun, clinging to it will make you happy.

Besides Munich (not a city for a car, by the way - personal experience) and somewhere in Provence you haven't really said where you'd like to be.

Don't forget that if you will do this for a year, winter will come at some point and many countries have requirements for winter rubber on the car (and sometimes chains). You will need a fixed place to keep that sort of stuff (and get it put on and off).

I didn't hear you saying you would settle anywhere - a week or two here or there - will you keep that up for the duration?

What will you do if the car doesn't sell at the end, or takes longer than you want, or doesn't reach the money you expect?

Because the country where you bought it will be the country where it is registered, so it will be the country where you sell it.

Don't forget about the taxes and the various emission stickers and registrations.

I'm sure you have this all worked out - just reminders.

Let us know how your dream comes together.

Sadly, the days of bumming around Europe for a year for a non-EU citizen are over. Let's say you want to stay over your 90 day limit. You have to apply for a Visa. That Visa is only good for the country you apply. It does not extend your allowance on all of Schengen.

You could do 90 days in Schengen, 90 days out of Schengen but that is not as easy as it sounds.

Instead of not worrying about the visa now, worry about it before you start looking into getting a vehicle. Why get all excited about driving a Porsche around Europe when you might not legally be allowed to do it.

I've decided to be positive. The others have mentioned the hurdles. They are real, but as you say "visa questions, but I'm going to put them aside for now" I am ignoring them.

"getting the car registered, insured and having papers sufficient to cross borders."
"my Italian friend is a massive car guy who can help"
If your friend is knowledgeable about getting a car registered in Italy, lean on him (or her?). The process is different in each country, if you have someone who knows the Italian process, it makes huge sense to buy an Italian registered car. If you can use his address, even better.
I don't know whether they cross check if you are registered at that address, ask your friend. If you are a legal resident (sorry, Schengen 90 days/visa comment), then you could register at his location.

Now the really good news. Once you have your car registered and insured, that is all you need to cross borders. Your insurance will automatically cover the legal requirements in all EU/Schengen countries. If you have extra cover above legal minimum, that may be geographically restricted.
Will your insurance cover the UK past next March (Brexit)? - don't know, send all questions to Mrs T May, 10 Downing Street, London.
"Obviously getting a car onto the continent isn't an issue (ferry)" - the best way to cross the channel (fastest) is via the Channel Tunnel.

Licence: Your non-EU licence is only valid for a limited period (may be 6 or 12 months, depends on country). After that you need to get a licence from the country you are resident in (Italy?). You may have to take a test, or the may just exchange your licence - whatever Italian law says.

At the end: If you have an Italian registered car, it must be returned to and sold in Italy.

Have you considered taking a U.S. Spec. car currently in the U.S. over to Europe? Then you could return it to the U.S. after you're through touring Europe as an option.
Another option would be to export an American car that's in high demand in Europe. I'm talking a used Corvette or Mustang convertible. I ran into a car wholesaler in the Atlanta airport once that was in town buying 'Vettes destined for Europe.
I had a friend that worked a few years in Brussels, and his company transported his U.S. Spec. Lexus LS to Europe. He had no trouble selling the car in Europe for top dollar upon his return home.

If you bring a US-Spec car into a European country, and attempt to sell it there, you have three issues.
As with driving licences, there is a time limit how long use can drive a foreign registered car in a country. Typically 6/12/18 months, but if you want to sell it you have to register it first.
a) Paperwork to get it registered.
b) taxes to pay (import duty).
c) The car needs to pass a safety check, which means a US-spec car to get some components changed in order to pass.
Typical items are lights, speedometer (must by Km/Hr).

David’s onto an idea. You could bring over a high-demand car, drive it and sell it within the 90 days. Go home for 90 days, which you said you’d need to do during the year anyway, and then repeat the operation if you want to continue.

Or, transport the car out of the Schengen with you and keep driving. We have friends who tranported their Corolla to Saudie Arabia for a two-year contract. They took a couple of months and drove from S.A. to England at the end.

You need advise from the Aussies and Kiwis who frequent this site. People from down-under often plan visits of an entire season, or more, because of the long flight times to get to and from Europe. Many buy a car when they arrive then sell it before returning home. I camped next to a couple from New Zealand on the Atlantic coast, near Bordeaux, this June. They had purchased a camper van and intended to sell it before returning.

I'm wondering if it may not be as complicated as you think? Do they need a permanent address to register and insure their car? Is it because they have a Commonwealth connection with UK? It seems to be a regular thing (or at least was recently).

Maybe, along that line, you can look for information on Aussie or Kiwi travel sites?

Registering a car in the UK is a bit easier. Yes, you need an address, but there is no system of having a registered address like there is in other countries, no record of who lives at what address (which is causing brexit problems - but that is another issue), so you just need a friend whose letterbox you can use. Also use the same address for your vehicle insurance.
And Aussie's aren't subject to any 90 day limit in the UK. So many use it as their base for a long term trip, with 90-day excursions to the Schengen Area.

Italy, Spain and most other European countries are likely to need a registered address.
And any car bought in the UK will probably be right-hand-drive.

There’s a 2017 article from Car and Driver about auto manufacturers “currently” offering Overseas Delivery.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15338837/buy-a-car-get-a-trip-how-european-delivery-works/

If you can consider buying a new car it can be very easy setting it all up in the US before you leave. We did this with our Volvo dealer many years ago when we were on a 6 month sabbatical in Germany and needed a car. It makes a difference where you live as to which dealers are knowledgeable to work through the process. We went to 2 dealers who had to look it up in their book and couldn’t answer many of our questions. Then we sat down with our own dealer in Santa Barbara who said “oh sure I do a couple of these a year”.

We were also able to extend our limited insurance to a longer time period by working with the assigned insurance company. The Overseas Delivery (at that our time called Tourist and Diplomatic Sales) liscense plates were good for six months. We didn’t need to look into the process for keeping it longer in Europe.

We sold our cars in the US before we left. We dropped the car off at one of the shipping locations to send it back. It got to our nearest port about a month after we shipped it. Transportation insurance in the Volvo contract took care of shipping it home.

Soooooo if you want to drive a new Porsche around Europe for several months AND you will be needing a new car at home after your trip, this may be something to explore.

Speeding ticket in 1996? Spells deadbeat to me. ( :->) )))
Sorry, I have nothing more to offer. Good luck, enjoy the journey.

I agree with several people here - the least of your worries is figuring out the car thing. Being able to stay in Europe is a massive challenge which should be sorted out before any further steps. Maybe if the refugees seeking asylum in Europe just explained that they just want to drive a car around Europe for a year, then they'd get legal status faster.

Texas Girl, https://community.ricksteves.com/users/115354, spent 18 months in Italy. You can PM her with questions, she may be able to help. She is contemplating on returning to Italy again for an extended stay, https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/contemplating-moving-back-to-italia.

I'm a US Citizen and have been an Austrian resident for the past 11 years. Residency in Europe ain't easy to come by, I can tell you that. For me, I had to prove I earned a certain income and that my skills were unique to me. A certain level of local language is also required. Good luck.

Excluding visa issues, the winter comment is a valid question -- when we picked up a VW convertible at the factory in Osnabruck (ok, about 50 years ago) it drew attention from locals because, face it, who would drive a heat-leaking car in Germany? We drove it with the top down the first day (October) and the rest of the month had the top up and the heater on. Since it was being shipped back to the U.S. all European registration and insurance was taken care of by VW.

howard,

IMHO, it would be better to approach this in a logical order, so there's no point in spending a lot of time researching cars, insurance, registration and all the other aspects before addressing the Visa issue. Unless you can find a solution to long stay in the E.U., the other stuff won't happen.

A few other thoughts......

• as you probably have a driver's license issued somewhere in North America, you will also need an International Driver's Permit for driving in several places in Europe (compulsory in Italy). IDP's are easily obtained at any AAA / CAA office for a small charge and are valid for one year.
• you'll need to do some checking on which countries require a Highway Tax Vignette (Austria, Switzerland, etc.), as there will be hefty fines if you're caught without it.
• you may be aware of this, but also check on ZTL (limited traffic) areas in Italy. Each pass through one of these will result in an expensive ticket. These will likely be mailed to the registered owner's address, so your friends will have to notify you of any "unusual" items received in the mail. The same applies to excess speed or other tickets.
• As others have mentioned, there could be "bureaucratic issues" with cars registered in the U.K., especially if a "hard Brexit" occurs.
• I assume you've looked at long term medical insurance? I'm also in my '60s and have found that most policies only allow for travel one month at a time, although it is possible to get limited extensions on that time.

One possibility would be to spend 90 days in the Schengen area, and then head for the U.K., where (as I recall) there's a six month common travel area rule. After spending 90 days in the U.K., return to the continent for another 90 days. Note that the 90 days includes your entry and exit days.

I agree with you on the aspect of using a car instead of a motorcycle. I had a cycle when I was younger, but always felt a bit "unsafe" so I got rid of it. You're very fortunate to be able to do travel for that length of time.

Good luck!

I would suggest pursuing that legal aspects of staying for time time you have in mind, ie consult with the consulates. See what advice you can obtain from them. If the duration can't be a year, then I would still entertain doing some part of the is trip , say 6-9 months based on what the consulates say.

Forget the shrink ...they don't have the imagination anyway.

I wouldn't concern myself with a fender bender, I've had worse than that but never a speeding ticket....lucked out in that dept.

Logistically, it's very easy to undertake staying in the UK and Schengen zones for 110 days, as long as you count the days exactly.

Your view of a trip done mostly by "winging it" is still possible, even by bus and trains, if you know what to do and where to go once you decide upon a town, more options for that in the summer. In Germany I would know exactly what to do if I were to travel totally that way.

There have been 21 quite expansive posts by people trying to answer this somewhat complicated question, and pages of reply.

The poster posted this question as howard and ellen (don't know which we are talking to) as their first post and has never been back.

I wonder if it is worth waiting to see if they really exist or just popped one off in passing.....

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Hey guys, I and particularly Nigel) sorry I didn't respond quick and individually. I've been on the road for a couple of days since posting and while I can read these easily enough on my phone, my thick, clumsy fingers make writing more than a few words on my phone something I avoid if I can (Yes, I know I can dictate, but that is another story!) I'll post my conclusions in 2nd reply.

JC - aware of the 90 out of 180 Schengen area limitations. I've been thinking about a variety of "hacks" to deal with this (time in the UK, etc.) but ultimately (and I'm spoiling the dramatic finish here) I think I'll end up having to establish residency in a Schengen country for this project. I also think I'll be able to do so through one of several programs. I've been reading about this a bit, and talking to some friends who have pulled it off.

Susan - Leasing would not work for several reasons. 1: - I don't want to pay the cost of a new car, which is what essentially all leases offer. 2: The cost of a lease for longer periods like a year is prohibitive (I looked). They are really 2-3 month deals. A "normal" us lease would not work as they are typically several years, and also - new cars. 3: None of the lease companies offer the kind of car I want (a roadster, prefereably a Porsche Boxster.) Too bad, as the insurance thing in particular would be super easy via a lease. But, per JC, the Schengen limitation would still come into play.

Nigel - Thanks for the comments. I've thought about all of that and have it under control. I'll pay what I pay for the car and sell it for what I can sell it for. I can live with that. As to winter, I expect to get an AWD version of the car, and also to have winter tires. I do have spots I can stash stuff, but mostly I'm going to travel WITH the weather (so So Spain and Italy in winter, eg.)

Frank - What can I say, I'm a planner, not a worrier. If I get the Schengen thing done the rest will follow, IMO.

Chris F - While I appreciate all the input (including pessimistic) I like your info the est! But I do have to think about getting a license and had not figured that into the calculus. Believe me, I will more than lean on my Italian "family." We've been very close since he was an exchange student with us in 1978. All our kids have lived with them, their kids with us. This is now a 4 generation relationship. My folks, us (me, him, his wife, my brother, etc.), my brothers kids, his kids, and now his grandchildren! Lots to lean on.

David - Interesting idea. Alas, I have my hearts set on a little open roadster, not a Mustang (though Miata's exist both places) Transshipping costs about $5k both ways with fees, etc. And it doesn't solve the Visa issue. But good idea!

Chris F again - Exactly. Just listened to a podcast about how there are minor safety differences (Germany assumes you are seatbleted in and the US regs compensate b/c they know many of us (not me) don't follow the rules. So cars have to be "tuned" for each market.

Bets- I'd have dug that plan when I was 25, but now sounds like work! Just the oppposite of my goal. But back then, I'd have done Harleys. I used to think about smuggling Levis and LPs into the USSR back in the early 80s when that was in theory a "thing."

Robert - ODPs are more limited then they used to be (not most makes/models.) Also, again, don't want to buy a new $60k car, but a 5 year old version of that for $40k that I sell for $30-$35k if I'm lucky.

Brad - I know the antipodals do very long trips indeed. Don't know if commonwealth status helps or if it is just that they are so damned charming!

Chris F - Yes, UK seems easier. In my circles we call US style Left hand drive b/c of the steeringwheel position. You say Tomato.

Mona - A (very rich) friend of mine said "Just buy a new 911 for Euro Delivery" Prior comments apply (price, duration of time there is usually a month or two.)

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Larry - Believe me, I've deserved a LOT more tickets and lucked out of a lot of accidents. I own a bunch of cars and drive reasonably, but not always legally. I'll be more cautious there. BTW, that ticket in 1996 was for going 55 over the Golden Gate Bridge (limit is 45 I think.) Now I go slow over the bridges.

Travel Man - Point taken. And self fulfilling. If I can't figure it out I can't do it. But I was just looking for ideas here, and I've gotten some.

Emily - Again, point taken. That said, I can promise I will be adding to the local economies (not that I think the refugees won't long run) There is something a tad ironic about it being harder for a privileged American to get in than a distressed refugee. Not a political comment at all - I'm personally very pro immigration. Just an observation of the oddity.

Brushtim - I just PMed TG!

Emily - I hear you. Discussed Visa above. Language thing is an issue, which may push me towards Spain, as I speak speak a bit. I also might structure this as retiring to a country. I'm old enough, don't work, and have enough assets that I could buy or rent if need be.

Laura B. - You sound like a sane person, which is where we depart I've driven convertibles over 10 kpeaks top down, heat basting, and quilts over my shoulders. It is a compromise I made when I decided to stop riding motorcycles. But I plan on only traveling when doing so is fun. If it is snowing/raining I'll bunker down. Or, I'll park the car and fly somewhere warm for a bit.

Ken - Thanks for ideas. I do have an Intl. Driving Permit, though I have driven extensively in Italy (and Croatia, France Slovenia, etc and never seemed to actually need it. These trips were in friend' cars. I'd not heard of a Highway Tax Vignette, and will look into it. You DO hit on the one issue I really have to look into that has not registered fully yet - medical insurance. I've know my conventional US insurance, while very good, doesn't cover me when overseas. I've found routine medical care there generally to be reasonably priced out of pocket, but I don't want to have to fly home (or worse get an air ambulance) if I need something more. I'm not Medicare age yet, and between us my wife and my policies cost us A LOT ($20k a year?) Best world I find a specialty "major medical" travel policy and can cancel my US coverage. That savings might pay for the trip! I do take some prescriptions (statin, BP med, etc.) and will either have to keep that up in the US and have sent to me in bulk, or find a way to get over there.

Fred - Yes, I plan to talk to the consulates. In the prior US administration I had some friends in high places, but now I'm flying solo.

The other Bob - Truly a helpful posting. I won't go line by line, but many, many thanks.

SOOOOOO, here is where i am after all. this. Clearly visa issues are top of mind. I've started looking at a variety of types, including those who can establish that they have funds so as not to need to work, freelancer, etc. I have a good friend who lives in Spain and does freelance US legal work (he is an attorney) including work for me. I'm sure he can help, and also establishes that it can be done. I had not thought about a local drivers license, which may be hard due to language. Also, medical insurance wasn't fully on my radar and now is and ditto medicines themselves. I wonder if there are "immigration attorneys" who can help with this. More for me to pass on to my friend sin Spain and Italy.

This has been a massively helpful thread for me, and I appreciate all the input. If people would like, I''l document my process as it goes along. I know my situation is different than many folks, but I'm sure I'll learn some (hard) lessons along the way, and if anyone is interested i'll share.

Thank again to to the RS community. I posted a similar thread on Quora and got mostly crickets.

Have you thought about testing this idea out for a month or so to see if you really like it?

My only comment would be to understand rules vary by country. When we moved for work to Spain a couple of years ago getting residency was quite straightforward (we're British so there were no real restrictions, at least then, just had to sign a form or two). But buying a car was a bureaucratic nightmare with seemingly endless paperwork - including having to provide more proofs of legal residency, etc. than renting a home did. Like many we paid a "gestor", a sort of legal fixer, to sort it all out. Just to be clear, you don't need a lawyer, you need a gestor - they'll have the right administrative contacts and know a suitable solicitor for any legal stuff.

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. Perhaps I was slightly misunderstood. Refugees are dying to get into Europe, daily and literally. Refugees face massive challenges if they make it to Europe, so I would not say it is easier for them to enter Europe than you.

howard,

A few further comments......

Even though you may have never been asked to produce an IDP, they are compulsory in Italy, as noted in this thread - https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/italy/drive-without-idp-at-your-own-risk . As you may be aware, an IDP must be used in conjunction with your home D.L., so be sure to check the expiry date of that before you depart on your trip.

For driving in France, an IDP or a notarized translation in French of the terms of your license is required. This from the Embassy of France in the US.....

"You may drive with a valid U.S. driver’s license if it is accompanied by a notarized translation in French. It is strongly recommended that you carry an International Driving Permit. You must be 18 years of age or older to drive in France."

I believe IDP's are also required in Spain and other countries. There was a thread here on the forum some time ago from a traveller who was driving in Spain, had an IDP but didn't have it with her at the time. She was stopped at a routine checkpoint, wasn't able to produce an IDP and was fined on the spot. She didn't have the cash with her so was escorted to an ATM to obtain the funds. I looked for that thread, but wasn't able to find it.

Regarding the Highway Tax Vignettes, you may find this interesting - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vignette_(road_tax) . The fines for Austria especially can be severe, so don't forget!

On the topic of travel medical insurance, my situation is a bit different due to my country of residence. I'm also in my '60s and take some prescription med's, but despite good medical coverage in my home province, travel medical insurance is a necessity even if travelling to other provinces in Canada and especially if travelling to the U.S. My retirement benefits plan provides limited travel coverage on a "declining balance" basis, so it's still essential to take out a supplemental policy to increase the amount of coverage.

I can tell you from experience that although the medical costs are quite reasonable in many European countries, a catastrophic illness could be costly. I've had experience with a hospital stay and surgery in Italy and at one point during my stay, I was shown a slip of paper detailing that the cost of my stay to that point was about €4000. Fortunately the travel insurance firm took care of all that. During that time, I found that my smarthphone was my most valuable travel accessory, as it allowed me to notify and stay in touch with the travel insurance firm, my family and my travel agent, who was an enormous help in cancelling and re-booking flights, and obtaining permission from the airline medical department to fly home.

Some of the forum members have mentioned MedJet Assist but I've never tried their services. The supplemental insurance that I've been using includes Medevac flights if deemed medically necessary.

I've never considered the aspect of obtaining prescription med's in Europe, as I always pack enough to last for the duration of my trips. Be sure to take a list of the generic names of the medications you take. During my hospital stay in Italy, it took them some time to determine a local equivalent of one of the med's I was taking. It would be a good idea to pack along copies of your prescriptions.

One other thought..... have a look at IAMAT as they provide a list of English-speaking Physicians in many countries around the world who will provide care for a small fee. If you needed medical treatment for a minor problem that occurred during the trip, that's one option. I used their services in the past, and it worked well.

If I think of any other suggestions, I'll post another reply.

Hi,

When you have the legal issues behind you as to the length of stay, etc, I would then suggest focusing on the driver's license part.

A good friend of mine, an ex-pat for the last 14 years or so living in Austria, a fellow Calif boy, owns a car, and drives in Austria, obviously. I don't know whether he had to take a written test to obtain an Austrian license and undergo other mandatory requirements.

I would suggest inquiring about that, ie, the bureaucratic aspect of buying the car, driving it , and all that. In his case dealing with all that "red tape" involved with a car, the Dr License, etc, etc, in German would have posed no problem as he is totally fluent in German.

In Austria, you can drive on a US license plus IDP for 6 months and then, if you’re a resident, you must swap your US license for an Austrian one. You are not required to take a written or practical test, it is a swap. No German necessary, Fred.

Good, thanks for the information.

When you get towards buying the plane tickets for your adventure remember that your old IDP will have expired. It is valid for 12 months, and since you are planning a 12 month sojourn you will need to get a new one just before you leave.

As some countries require them and others don't it might be wise to finish your driving in a country which doesn't since if you are on the road for 12 months and you needed to get the IDP before you left it will have expired again before you return.

In Europe the countries which most require it are Italy, France, Austria. Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands.

It is not required in Germany, UK, Ireland, Switzerland.

Swapping the license versus having to take a test is a consideration. France has a swap agreement with only a few US States, but not all. Obtaining a license can involve a lot of time, testing and up to a couple thousand Euros in France. Austria sounds good.

A piece of advice on getting a license. If your current state license is not swappable with the country your plan on getting your EU license from, swap you liscense to a state that is in the US first. This will save you a lot of headache and in fact is recommended by some relocation companies when moving to Europe. Our recommended doing this before moving to Germany which didn’t accept a TX license at the time (they do now).

After a little research I found I could legally obtain a CO license for the purposes of seeking employement in CO as long as I had an address to use there. Luckily some relatives let me use their address and one short trip to visit them I had a CO license which I could easily swap for a German one with no tests.

Not all states may allow this anymore given the changes in ID requirements over the years but if it’s a choice between getting a different US license or having to start from scratch with an EU license, try and get a swappable US one.

DJ

I feel it necessary to bring some reality to this discussion that is so full of naysayers and people who think they understand the EU regulations.

The way I look at this is if you cannot figure it out you shouldn't be going. I know this sounds like a wise remark but the process is pretty complexed and if your not comfortable with your planning the whole thing could be really costly.

Really? The truly wise always seek counsel. Seeking information and experience of others is the mark of someone who WILL succeed. Not the other way round. And the process is not nearly as complex in reality as it seems from your position. I have done it.

To the OP: First Yes I have lived in Europe and bought cars there. This year I spent 4 months in Europe despite the people bleating about the Schengen rules. (see below)

But first let me address the issue so many have brought up. Do not let the 90 day rule bother you there are ways around it. First is to use the first three months in the schengen and then move base to a non schengen country. After 180 days you can go back into the schengen again. It easy to drive to other places including Turkey and North Africa for a real change. (Both things I have done)

But easier is to just apply for an extended EU visa. It is not that difficult and very likely to be accepted with little fanfare. Keep in mind most of what you read online is directed at NON US citizens seeking visas. Do not be put off by that.

As for the car. If you get it from a dealer they will license and insure it for you. As some have said England is probably the easiest. However Germany is also a good place to do it. there are good books online and in bookstores about driving in Europe and overseas. Get them and read them.

Keep in mind that most Americans have very limited (by comparison) knowledge of buying cars and driving overseas that they tend to think it is much more complex and filled with pitfalls than is the reality. I have lived and driven and owned cars in Europe, Egypt, Cambodia and have driven motorcycles and cars everywhere from Sri Lanka to Indonesia, West Africa, Thailand, Laos and more.

There is a wealth of good information here but it is a bit limited in scope. What you want to do is perfectly reasonable and doable but sadly this is not the BEST place to get direct experience from those who have done it or get the best advice from the largest number of people.

Good luck and do not let the naysayers change your mind.

To the OP: First Yes I have lived in Europe and bought cars there. This year I spent 4 months in Europe despite the people bleating about the Schengen rules. (see below) But first let me address the issue so many have brought up. Do not let the 90 day rule bother you there are ways around it. First is to use the first three months in the schengen and then move base to a non schengen country. After 180 days you can go back into the schengen again. It easy to drive to other places including Turkey and North Africa for a real change. (Both things I have done)

No-one's "bleating" about the Schengen rules. The OP didn't write anything to suggest that he wanted to visit Turkey, North Africa or any other place outside the EU, he was quite explicit in mentioning places within the EU so whilst it is perfectly feasible to venture outside the EU and return within the Schengen rules the OP hasn't mentioned it nor alluded to any interest in travelling outside of it. To not advise the OP of the rules is to do him a disservice. He needs to be aware about them if he is not as it may have a significant impact on his plans. It isn't bleating, it isn't naysaying it's all about ensuring that he has the full picture.

@ howard...This is on buying a car over there, somewhat different from your intentions and dated too. .

In 1972 good friends of my parents (the wife was my mother's schoolmate in secondary school.) went to Germany on vacation with buying a German car in mind and having it shipped back home in SF. They had checked, inquired about buying a German car in SF and the other dealerships in the immediate Bay Area...anyway, all that research didn't satisfy them.

While in Munich they decided to buy a brand new BMW 2002, did all the necessary paperwork, did the entire transaction in English, etc, and had this BMW 2002 shipped to SF. It was easy. The husband knew about cars and was impressed with the Germans, at the service and professionalism of the BMW staff he dealt with in Munich.

Bottom line: The husband told me then that even with the shipping expense and all that, buying the car over there was cheaper than if they had bought it in a dealership in SF. I saw this car in 1972.

Your plans do not include having this car you end up buying shipped back here.

Don't understand those dates. Or is a BMW 2002 a model rather than a year?

Having previously owned a Porsche Boxster, I would comment that it’s not a practical main car as you can barely fit a week’s shopping in there and the ride is far too hard for the poorly surfaced British roads. It was ok as a second car.

The insurance was astronomical, even though it was garaged (makes the insurance much cheaper), we were in our mid 40s, had clean driving licences, we agreed to limit the annual mileage to 5,000 miles and we had many years of no claims bonus.

Most people on the continent drive more modest cars than in the UK and a Porsche would be a crime target.

Who knows at present if a non E.U. national bringing an E.U. registered car into the UK will have any repercussions post Brexit, if that would be how you opted to avoid the Schengen limits.

I'm curious -- how would you recommend that someone should phrase their question, if they should consider visa matters irrelevant at this time, to avoid the repetitive bleating about Schengen requirements? Is writing, that one would like to set such matters aside for now, insufficient?

Don't put "spend a year" in the post's title. The Schengen Bleaters appear to be drawn to posts that mention duration of stay.

My reference to "Bleating about Schengen Rules" was clearly and explicitly used in the past tense about the threads I started when I was planning my 4 -6 month trip to Europe.

More careful reading would be appreciated.

However having said that, that remark of mine surely does apply to this thread also.

There seems to be a cohort of those that sniff out any timeline of a proposed trip that requires their expertise to be expounded on over and over.

While it all may be well meaning I feel the same pain as the OP here as I did the same thing in several of my posts where I tried to head off those Schengen comments before they got started as I knew the regulations well. Alas to no avail whatsoever. They still poured in.

So to those well meaning "Schengen-ites" that love to post, please please if the OP states in some way that they don't want to hear about them, respect that.

I'm curious -- how would you recommend that someone should phrase their question, if they should consider visa matters irrelevant at this time, to avoid the repetitive bleating about Schengen requirements? Is writing, that one would like to set such matters aside for now, insufficient?

Bob.

The OP mentioned visas, he didn't mention anything about the Schengen agreement which could be interpreted as knowing nothing about it, quite a common occurence. As such it is only fair to highlight it in case he is completely unaware of the requirements.

I'm sorry that you interpret such helpful advice as "bleating" and a race to see who can shoehorn such an important subject matter into a thread. Perhaps you could do better providing some helpful advice to the OP rather than crticising the advice that others have provided in their own time and for no personal gain.

I've never been in a position to spend 3 months in Europe, but if I were, I would be unaware of the Schengen rules without this forum. I think it's a good thing for it to be constantly repeated because it's a dealbreaker for some people's planned itineraries and the sooner they know about it, the better. The Schengen rules and the need to have 6 months left on passport are the baseline things a traveler has to know before they even get started with their planning.

Lo,

BMW 02 was a series of models, not a year. Perhaps the cars that made BMW's reputation, at least outside the home market. I think they're considered classics these days and some, like a top 2002 Turbo, can sell for big bucks.

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Hi guys, OP here. I hope that you don't mind that I am letting responses build up and responding en masse.

Overall, this process continues to be of EXTREME value to me, even on the slightly off topic responses that there is some turmoil over. Even though I asked to limit to non-visa issues, my thinking on approach to visa has been refined so i certainly don't mind the "bleating" about this. That said, I'd also suggest we cut The Other Bob and Aarthurperry some slack. I appreciate their desire to keep responses targeted to the question. This is a perennial problem on boards, and some people are just more sensitive to it. Personally, the only "nonresponsive" posts that aggrivate me are the sort where the OP asks "Does anyone know if the Osprey Backpack is better than the Northface?" and someone responds "I don't know, i've not seen or tried either." In truth, these just make me laugh - that some people don't realize that the internet is not talking to them personally.

So the comments about visas have, despite myself, been helpful. The only response I take issue with the notion that convertibles are uncommon or impractical in Europe. I've spent several months driving them there (see below) and in fact there was a period in the '72 when no ragtops were made in the US but still lots in Europe. Now, as to whether it is idiotic, that is a legit question. But seeing as how driving convertibles is a substitute for motorcyles for me, I feel like I'm in the lap of luxury and have the safety of a tank around me

Ok, now to the specific posts since my last response:

Bob - I have indeed tested it (but not the fitted luggage ) I've spent several months combined driving 2 sports cars around Europe (plus some trips in microcars) I did 3 weeks in an old, unreliable Alfa Duetto which ran like a champ, and about as long in a late model Mercedes CLK (which died in Croatia.) Its definitely the open-top driving life for me! FYI, for most of the year my primary ride is a 1971 MB 280SL Pagoda. I also have a Smart Fortwo Cabrio. Like I've said before - I'm an idiot.

Nick - Totally agree. The "gestor" mention is of particular value to me. I had figured I might use a lawyer, but a fixer sounds helful too. Maybe Ray Donnovan? Yes, I have a drivers license (including commercial and motorcycle). Re: Spain, my main interest in buying there is I have a friend there. First choice is Italy where I have a very close Italian friend who also is a mechanical engineer and knows more about cars than I do. He recently rebuilt an old Vespa down to the bare metal, but I'll not be touring on that!

Emily - No harm no foul. I understand your point and agree with it. 'Nuff said.

Ken - Learning more about the IDP requirements has been an eye opener. Thanks! If I end up with a local drivers licence this should not be a problem (I learned that in Spain you can take the written portion in English) but I'll get an IDP regardless, if only as a belts and suspenders thing. Thanks for the link on Vignettes. Medical insurance, evac, etc. all are all on the todo list to figure out.

Fred - Hi fellow San Franciscan. Points taken.

Emily - thanks for the info on Austria. I've driven around there quite a bit. Th swap is interesting.

Nigel - Good catch. Thanks.

Bets - Thanks for state based idea. I've residences in a few US states so could change my license if needed. Maybe visit you in Indiana

DJ - Thanks and see above from Bets.

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Aarthurperry - Indeed I am a counsel seeker, and remain humbled at the amount of quality advice I've gotten here. On dealers, I'm only hesitant there b/c I don't want a new car (having to pay for new to used depreciation, insurance and outright cost of new car I want) but am afraid of used car dealers (I owned a small chain once & and know from whence I speak.) You suggest there are better places for info on buying cars overseas. Any specifics you care to share?

JC - I've decided I'm ok both with "bleating "and with complaining about "bleating" I appreciate it all and will even take some "mooing" and "quacking"

The other Bob - See above. I appreciate you all.

Fred - Hello again from SF! I have a long and varied history with BMW 2002 and related cars (1600s on up.) In some life I'll own one of the 1k or so Turbos built. What I REALLY want is a 3.0CSI, but I digress (bleat?) If you want to see a really goofy 2002tii for sale, check out this auction on Bring a Trailer https://bit.ly/2EC1k8l .The super short version of my best 2002 story involves going to a Springsteen concert New Years Eve 1980, wrecking a 68 2002 on the NJ Turnpike 3 weeks later. I was lucky to survive. From the concussion, I had amnesia for 25 years where I didn't remember anything from the concert until a few weeks after the accident. In 2005 I bought that concert as a bootleg CD and listening to it a few dozen times and eventually my memory of that year returned. Somehow hearing the music activated the part of my brain that had been shut down for 25 years. Hand to God a true story.

Lo - BMW 2002 was part of a line of related cars built from 1967 - 1976. Many people (ok, me) think it is one of the most important, influential and loveliest cars ever built. The BMW 3 series descends from this (320i in 1977 was first.) Also, per above, a 2002 saved my life.

Jennifer - Agree Boxster is not practical. But then again, my FIRST car was a Fiat X 1/9. I have a thing about mid engine, open 2 seaters. Inf act, Boxster has plenty of storage due to the front trunk ("frunk") as well as small rear trunk. And there is fitted luggage for it! The wife and I travel VERY light so easy for us to fit our stuff in a Boxster. The real question now is how comfortable my 60 year old butt is in that small seat One reason to buy used is insurance is cheaper. The version of car I want is about $75k new, but can be had for about $40 if 5-6 years old. Keeps insurance down due to lower cost of replacement if totaled.

G3rryCee - See earlier comments. As OP I'm fine with all the input thus far and have great love and appreciation for people taking the time to provide input, even where somewhat off topic or repetitive.

aarthurperry - I love the phrase "Schengen-ites" Is that a post Brexit party? Just kidding.

JC - See above and the spirit intended.

cala - Agreed.

Nick - Just looked - BMW built 1672 2002 Turbos. It had 170 HP and my Kia Sportage (also 2 liter) has 250 HP. Amazing. Last year a #2 condition (good, but not show quality) Turbo sold at Scottsdale (I was there but did not bid) for $145k plus fees! FYI, the fun conceit of the 2002 Turbo is that the "Turbo" emblem on the air dam (Turbos are white with striped fairings) is in mirror image on the theory that people will only see it coming in their rear view mirror. The Turbo is a bucket list car for a lot of European car fiends like me. Still, a pittance compared with a MB 300SL which in BAD condition is $1.5 million.

If I ran the family show, we'd actually tour in an older, Porsche 911 Convertible. But the wife wants reliability and safety. Somehow she thinks breaking down is not fun. Bah! Hell, I'd like to run the Mille Miglia, part of which I've seen twice.

Again, thanks to all and happy to receive any more comments. Apologies for rambling on so long, but wanted to do justice to those who were moved to provide me with guidance.

howardyellen: I was not thinking new cars when I mentioned dealers but used. There are plenty used car dealers and the prices from what I saw are reasonable. (this last time in Europe)

Also I wouldnt let Brexit bother me too much either. Thousands upon thousands brought cars from England to Europe (and V.V) for years before there was such a thing as the EU. And my guess, despite the sky-is-falling types who think the world will stop with Brexit, is that things will revert more to pre EU times.

THE BIG reason not to buy in England of course is the RHD. You will fight that for the rest of the time. And as one who has rented a car in England and driven to the continent, and including Paris on that trip, take it from me it's not something you want to do unless you have to.

@ howard...As far as I know, that couple buying the BMW 2002 in 1972 in Munich, ie, a factory purchase, were not after a turbo, just a simple, conservative looking BMW 2002. As pointed out I saw this couple's newly bought 2002 in 1972. The husband died some years ago, I'm no longer even in contact with any of their kids but I know someone who is privy to that info and would know what the current status of their BMW 2002 is. I would think it is still running.

I mainly want to point out that with this dated story, ie 46 years ago, that purchasing a brand new car in Germany, having it shipped over here, and so on was a pretty easy thing, certainly not as exorbitant as one might imagine. I like your response style en masse...innovative.

@ Nick...That BMW 2002 is a classic now.

@ howard...I'm not going to even comment on this Schengen time constraint but assume you will have all this in order by the time the projected trip is undertaken. For me the easiest way to deal with Schengen is not to deal with it by running afoul with the time constraint. My aim would be to do 88 days in the Zone and then 21 in England, flying out of London back here.

During those Schengen days keep in mind the car ferry option, such as going to Finland or Sweden by car ferry and driving the car there. Of course, you need to get it to back. I assume you drive a stick. Renting (it used to be so ) an automatic would be more expensive, if they were available in the first place. The expense difference used to be the case in northern France. I wouldn't know nowadays, mainly since a rental car is not an option for me.

Howard, loved the rambling. Now I recognize that model. We do see them at the track. My husband road races mostly in the Pacific Northwest. He has a Formula Ford, an '81 Crossle built in Belfast, well actually, Holywood, Northern Ireland.

When I took him to Europe in 2009 for his first time, that "factory," a true cottage industry, was almost the the most significant shrine we visited on the trip. I say almost because renting a race-prepared car and doing 8 laps around the Nürburgring Nordschleife was his ultimate religious experience.

We both can see why you want to spend some significant time in a challenging car on any road you can. Shoot, we rented cheap little cars on 4 different trips, drove them in 8 different countries
had a blast and only ended up with 3 speeding tickets.

Good luck with your preparations for the near future.

Aaaahhhh. BMW's. My very first car, bought for me by my Dad, was a 1961 BMW 700. ( 2 cylinders).

My second, purchased myself, was a 1968 BMW 1600 ( I could not afford the 2002). My Dad approved.

If I hadn't moved to Alaska several years later, I would probably still have that car. But I believe those BMW's had a lot of rust problems and there are not many of them around any more.

Aarthurperry - I'm not worried about Brexit - it will shake out. You are right about the RHD thing though. There ARE LHD cars in the UK which you can take across the channel but they are overpriced . I've driven "wrong side" cars in a few markets (Japan, Australia, the UK) and it takes some getting used to. Even driving a RHD manual where I have to shift with my left hand is awkward.

Fred - Good reminder re car ferries. I've used them a few times. II don't otherwise solve the Schengen issue, my approach would be what you suggest - spend time in and out of the zone by going to the UK and other non-Schengen countries. But I'd rather not have my plans controlled by entries and departures. It is kind of ironic that I'm doing SO much planning for a totally ad-lib year of travel! The wife and I drive stick, but I'm inclined to get a PDK semi-automatic. They cost less, are lots of fun, and make driving in town less stressful. Not as "pure" an experience, but a compromise I'm willing to make. I may even spring for heated seats! One reason for picking the Boxster is that it is pretty small, thus good for tight roads in old cities. Oh, and if you hear about that '72 2002 and there is any interest in parting with it, let me know!

Q: "How many cars do you have Howard?"
A: "More than I need and fewer than I want."

I've just finished refurbishing my MB 280SL and am thinking getting another 2002. I agree that buying overseas and shipping back to the US is not too hard . That is particularly true with cars over 25 years old which get an exemption on import for safety and pollution. There are all these cool early '90s JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) cars that are showing up in the US now. All right side steering wheels, but they made a host of goofy micro cars (Kei cars w/<1 liter motors.) Micro sports cars, mini mini-vans, puny-pickup trucks, pocket limos. Its a whole "thing now."

Lo - Great story about your hubby. I totally appreciate the pilgrimage to Belfast. British Isles (I think No. Ireland counts) is full of the proverbial "10 guys in a shed" car companies. The cars are generally rubbish, but who cares! Oh, and you busted me. I hadn't mentioned it but one MUST DO on my trip list is taking whatever i buy around the Nürburgring. 4 laps costs 105 Euro. Not that I've checked.

Lola - I'm SUPER impressed that your dad had a 700. Very rare (even compared with the famous post war Isetta "bubble car" which they made both as a 2 and 3 wheel car depending on market and insurance). 1600s are a little poky, but as handsome as a 2002 and those early ones (pre-74) had the nice round rear lights, narrow bumpers and other desirable features. Almost 175k of this line of cars were made, so many survive. They built 2 and 4 doors, touring/station wagons, & an authorized convertible conversion by Bauer.

2002s aren't rusty compared with other cars of that era (all cars rusted then, but the 2002 was no worse than others.) The BMW I REALLY love - the 3.0csi IS a real rust trap though. While you can get a decent 2002 for $15k, a similar 3.0 is 4 times that, so you have to be careful about the (predicable) locations that rot.

You were smart not to take the BMW to Alaska. For something from Bavaria, the 2002 is a notoriously bad snow car. The front engine/rear drive and weight distribution made them slide like crazy. Everyone I who drove in the snow put weight (bags of salt or sand) in the trunk. Ironically, a VW bug would have served you better in Alaska (except he heaters always broke.)

I've a buddy who is still driving a '68 2002 which he purchased new as his first car ever. It was his primary ride for about 25 years, and now is a second car for him. It is totally unrestored and in just fair shape. Oddly enough, collectors now want "survivors' like this with good provenance. I keep trying to have him put me in his will, but his family thinks I'm a carpetbagger I don't wish him ill, but he IS in his 80s so..

The 700 was MY car. My dad bought it for me to drive in high school. It got 50 MPG and was great fun to drive. When I called the DMV to find out how much it would cost me to register and license it, and I told the agent it was a 2-cylinder, she said it must be a motorcycle! I said it was a car and she said it must have 4. I said no, it has 2, and she said “Dear, please let me talk to your parent”. Apparently they had no category for a 2-cylinder car but managed to come up with a fee after my dad confirmed that it was a 2-cylinder.

The 1600 had the same body style as the 2002 so was just as pretty, just not quite as fast. I knew there was no point in taking it to Alaska as there were no BMW dealers there, and as you say it was not a good snow car. Besides, we planned to drive up the AlCan highway which was not paved in those days. Terrible thing to do to a classic car. After selling it, we (I was married by this time) bought a VW bus to drive to Alaska. As you know, that was a bad choice due to heating problems. When the engine threw a rod at 30 below, we had it towed back to Fairbanks and sold it. Bought a Saab which is a great snow car. That was my first of 4 Saabs.

My dad was what was called a “car buff” and some of it rubbed off on me. Sounds like you are one too. I hope you fulfill your dream of driving a great sports car all over Europe.

I'm not sure how many guys were in the shed when my husband's race car was built, but neither it nor the many other Formula Fords built there were rubbish. This is a picture of him in his car at Pacific Raceways this summer.

And this is a link to a little bit of info on the Crosslé factory. And more on the company's history. Founded in 1957, it has been around for a while. Unfortunately, the cars they build are for racing only. They are obviously not street legal.

Are you going to drive the Nordschleife or the Nürburgring itself?

Just in case: due to widespread abuse, Italy has set a new rule, that a resident (citizen or foreigner, it does not matter) can drive a foreign registered car only for 60 days, after that it has to be registered in Italy. The rule is in force since a couple of weeks and police forces are already beginning to impound foreign registered cars driven by residents. - As the OP considered the help of an Italian dealer and he is not very clear about residence/visa matters, the thing may be relevant or not.