Pickpockets: Ever heard of them getting turned upon by their victims?

Most of the pickpocket stories I've heard is, "I was pickpocketed, but didn't realize it." Perhaps after getting off a bus or train and not having their wallet or other valuable. When in Madrid, we spotted a couple. Made out to look like Mother and son. The "son" had a coat neatly folded over his arm. We had been warned that this is a typical ploy. We were on our way to a neighborhood restaurant. I told my husband that we should take a detour to avoid them. (We were wearing our money belts a usual). After finishing our meal a couple hours later we saw that "mother and son" we're being arrested! I wonder how soon they were back out on the street again?

A pickpocket in Barcelona, getting on the Metro, met up with us! She put her hand in my spouse’s pocket and he hit her arm with his map at the same time as I hit her arm with my hand. She screamed and ran to the other end of the car and then disappeared. The other subway riders paid no attention to her screams and objections to our defending ourselves. We were trying to find a policeman, no luck.

I've got to wonder that sometimes the pickpocket gets unlucky on occasion and picks the wrong victim. I've got to assume there's a victim out there that has turned that pickpocket's day into a very bad one.

b,

It may backfire. Of course, it would be a different story if they did you bodily harm and you had to defend yourself. But, unless you are very familiar with Italian law, I would be careful about any hard altercations.

I have never been pick-pocketed or had any attempts on me.

Rome, as a whole, is not a violent city. You'll see the homeless and beggars holding a cup jingling it for money - usually in a few of the major Piazzas; especially around The Vatican, Piazza Navona and The Pantheon (Piazza della Rotonda.)

There are many Italian police and military in and around major attractions. I see that as a deterrent.

Walking around Termini Station, just keep your wits. "Scouts" wander the station looking for targets. They seem solo but are texting to counterparts about potential victims. If you watch long enough, you can tell or see them - for the most part. Some may not have a bag or luggage - but that's not to say they are not doing some browsing or shopping in the stores, lol.

I never encountered any "petition signing," "lost/found ring," "bird doo," or other distractions.

The best thing anyone can do is preventative and to also keep a big city awareness. Keep your eyes open.

Wear a money belt for deep storage of extra Euro, credit card and your passport - if you carry it; which I do.

A day bag for men and women with a good strap and construction, tight zippers and worn cross body is good.

Obviously:

• Don't flaunt wealth of any kind. Wear no, simple or costume jewelry.
  
• Don't set your phone on a table or carry it loosely through a dense crowd where it could be snatched.
• Don't wear a wallet in any kind of accessible pocket.
  
• On a bus or metro, keep your bag in front of you with zippers facing you. Keep nothing in pockets.
  
• Don't hang your bag on the back of a chair or set it on a table.
• When accessing a Bancomat (ATM), use one that is attached to a bank. If your card gets eaten or stuck, it will be much easier to get it retrieved by a bank employee.
• Cover your hand over the keypad to enter a PIN. Have your travel partner stand "guard." If solo, be extra careful. When withdrawing a lot of Euro, immediately put it in your money belt - sort it out when you go to a restroom stall. Make sure of course you are not followed in.

You "may" get bugged about buying a Pashmina (if you are a woman), a rose, a globby toy if you are with kids, or a bracelet. Just say, "No Grazie" and walk on. They usually won't follow you. If they do, just cross the street or go into a cafe or wherever.

I look vendors or skip-the-line tour sellers in the eye, smile and say, "No Grazie." They know by my direct eye contact, I mean what I say. I have big brown eyes, but they become even larger and darker which means, "enough" without my saying it, lol. But, seriously, don't worry.

Jokes aside, I had an entertaining conversation with a group of young men selling "official Vatican tours." They were funny and tried to outdo each other with stories of their escapades in Rome. They work on commission only, so it is hard work. They work for an Italian woman (I met her.) They were dressed very nice - dress shirt, dress pants, nice shoes, a nice overcoat, groomed. Well spoken in English. They were from Afghanistan.

All in all, Rome IS great! It is a walking outside museum; a surprise around every corner - Baroque fountains adorning Piazzas, amazing architecture, the hustle bustle of locals and travelers alike, scooters whizzing by; the sounds of a big city in all its glory.

Let’s face it- pickpockets are very good at what they do and are not usually caught in the act. Should you be unlucky enough to be a target, and you somehow realize that mid-crime, what exactly do you mean by “turned upon”? First off, you don’t know if the criminal has a backup plan that includes a pocketknife or such so going toe to toe is a risk. Also, pickpocketing is a despicable but non-violent crime while your assaulting the thief is likely to get you arrested. I’m not saying just hand your stuff over, but a response must be measured.

You seem to be confusing pickpockets with muggers. Pickpockets by definition work stealthily - you don’t know you are being pickpocketed so you can’t “fight back”. If they are seen they tend to leave and find another target.

The threat is way overblown but it is possible. Instead of harboring some vigilante fantasy just practice awareness and basic precautions to keep your stuff safe.

It is also important to remember that pickpockets travel in groups. The victim of a pickpocket is usually single. Just how is a single person going to do anything that "turned that pickpocket's day into a very bad one"? Most likely outcome of attacking a pickpocket is either you get arrested for assault, or his friends take turns doing the same to you that you did to him.

All you have to do is keep your passport, large cash, and other things you can't lose in a money belt they can't get to and the few Euro a pickpocket might find in your pocket is a frustrating loss for you, nothing more.

We were pickpocketed in a quiet street in Bologna while I was focusing on taking a photo of a unique antique store sign. We didn’t realize what this woman was doing until about five minutes after she left my husband. I agree it would be very risky to get into a fight with someone, especially while you’re in another country.

We had all of our money, etc. in our money belts. She just grabbed the 10 Euro leftover from our recent lunch that was in my husband’s pocket.

It seems that pickpocketing is rampant throughout Europe
Really? With all the attention it is given on this forum, you would indeed get that impression. In all the decades of my travelling I have had one - 1 - pickpocketing experience and that was in Istanbul. I got him in the act and would indeed have done something were it not I had a few more days in that area.
Take some simple precautions. Don't carry around what you're unlikely to need until you return to your hotel. I have some EUR 50 cash with me, and leave everything else in my suitcase at the hotel. Depending on the area I put my wallet somewhere deep down in my daypack or in a zippered pocket. That's it.
And be a little streetwise and act according to your surroundings. Don't delve for your money in a crowded area. Ignore people you don't trust.

One time at a music event in France, I caught a pickpocket by the wrist while his hand was in my pocket. Nothing was in that pocket. Without really having a plan about it (and how could I as it happened so quickly), I held on to the wrist hard for a moment and give him a hard look in the eye. That's when I felt someone else's hand land on my opposite shoulder from behind.

I let go and they just shrugged and moved on... but don't assume pickpockets work alone.

Wear your moneybelt if you're concerned about a high-density tourist area and you'll be carefree.

Had a learning experience on the tram in Lisbon . A well dressed man and his friend tried to distract us as we got on the tram. Then, one of the men appeared to be with an elderly man on the tram. Our belongings are well protected. When a women screamed my wallet is gone after the man jumped off the station. It happened so fast. I realized the man was looking for a mark. On a bus in Rome I swear the same man had made it to Rome. I marked him and had us hold our bags even closer.

After 14 trips to Europe I have never had to experience violence or stolen goods. Been called swear words and spit on because I ignore the beggars. Like others have noted the locals do not even give a word of support.

She was an excellent mark in Lisbon. Her bag was open off the side of the hip, carrying coffee and conversing with her friends. As they returned to their original destination to call the CC company they stated the hubby had no money or the second credit card on him.

Handguns are more difficult to buy in much of Europe, so unlike the US where they just pull a gun or mug you, in Europe the pick-pockets are forced to acquire the skill of pick-pocketing.

There have been two attempts made to pickpocket me, once in Prague and once in Montreal. In both cases, I was aware of what was happening and yelled my head off. The guys suddenly disappeared but looked a bit shocked. I guess I did not look like a screamer.

If you catch on, they just wear an innocent look on their faces—a who-not-me look—and then slip away. Two men dressed differently, four young girls, four well dressed women....

I've wondered the same question as OP. In the US, a hand in the pocket is likely to result in a fist to the face or worse. And the perpetrator will be the one who receives any police attention and the public support will be for the victim. The perception is that in Europe the person on the receiving end of what US would consider self-defense would be considered the victim. So what actually happens if anything other than a Gallic shrug?

Sure it does. In the US there isn't pickpocketing. It is armed robbery where if the robbery victim resists they get shot.

....seems that pickpocketing is rampant throughout Europe, especially in big cities, like Rome..... Depends on how you define rampant. It is overly discussed on most travel sites, especially this one. It occurs but if you take reasonable precautions you will have no problems. I have been criticized for making the following statement, " We have travel for nearly a total year all over Europe and in many hot spots for pickpockets and have never had a problem." But it doesn't mean that we cannot have a problem this coming fall when we return. I have seen a couple of questionable situations with other people that might be described as a potential pickpocketing attempt but it could be something else. The test --- if something of value is easy for you to get to, then it will be easy for pickpocket to reach. Just keep everything out of reach. A few years I read an article that said about 1 in 4 have problems. That is a lot but it is not rampant. You are not headed into a den of thieves. Relax.

And just on cue, one pickpocket story after another....

It’s amazing that I still have any money at all after 12 years living here!

Again, overblown, Europe is not a den of thieves. But come dressed like you’re heading into battle if that makes you comfortable. You’ll quickly realize what is unnecessary.

I don't know exactly what happened but can guess what had happened? This doesn't have to do with a pickpocket but most likely a scammer given the area who got called on pulling his scam. It was in Paris a few years ago.

I had reached Sacre Cour, stood there looking around, this was in the morning, so not yet super crowded, looked at Basilica , looked over to the stone benches left of the Basilica where a group of Chinese tourists were standing, seating around, could have been more of their group still exploring the area.

I went off walking around the area, came upon underneath the area where I had observed this group sitting, this part is hidden away by the bushes, etc. Walking through this, I hear this guy above continuously saying only "F....You"..didn't say to whom or what but just these two words. I stood and listened, I couldn't see him , he couldn't see me. With this going on and on, I though this guy spouting out like this was not only silly but boring.

At one point he lashes out at one group of people, just one nationality. He doesn't say ," F...the Americans." but the Chinese... only once he says that. Then I though it's getting somewhere, see who else he lashes out with this word. Result...no one

Where he stood lashing out like this, was the spot where the Chinese had been seating. I thought he must have pulled the string scam (and these guys were around in this whole area) on one of the Chinese women sitting here and when confronted with no or what ever from her, and he didn't comply, she said something and the other Chinese guys must have surrounded him...meaning you get the message, pal, or, maybe even took away his strings, etc.

I'm assuming that might have happened at that specific spot which I had seen earlier prior to this incident. Did the guy get turned on by the Chinese, something which I would not put pass them.

I left , the guy was still lashing out, saying only the boring "F..."word.

It should also be noted by Internet Tough Guys that in most European countries self-defence is legally limited to what is proportional to the situation - no "stand your ground"/"make my day" laws. Beating the crap out of somebody over a non-violent attempted theft will get you deservedly done for GBH.

I thought the title said, “ever heard of them getting turned on by their victims?”

Only if there were holes in the victim’s pockets….

First, I would not consider petty theft and pickpocketing Rampant, maybe a persistent low incidence threat.

As for your question, I think others have hit it on the head, given the intended stealthy nature of the crime, no confrontation is usually possible. In those cases where someone gets caught in the act, or a person feels threatened, the most you see is a bit of a commotion, a scolding, or a swatting. As Phillip pointed out, anything more severe would result in you breaking a law.

My own experiences are like I mentioned above, the victim swatting and yelling at the thief. In one case on a bus (in Rome I believe) a thief made a poor attempt after getting on the bus, then had to endure the taunts and curses of what I assume were locals until the next stop, he was younger, so I guess he didn't know to wait until close to the next stop, or during the stop to make your move.

As for the discussion on whether one should even bother being concerned about the threat, is it a threat, or is it discussed too much....I guess I can only add the following.

• Yes petty crime is a rare incident, most travelers will not have any problems.
• From a Local's perspective I can see how it may be especially baffling, but I also have to observe that most criminals do not target local's, they see better opportunity with an obvious tourist that is likely carrying more cash, Credit cards (at least American ones) that have primitive security measures, is distracted either by what they are looking at or trying to navigate an unfamiliar area, and if a victim, would be much less likely to go to Police. To accomplish this, they go to places tourists go, which also happen to be the places local's avoid due to crowds, or have little need to go in the course of the day (Major sights, museums, etc.), with the exception maybe the Metro or Bus.
• For a traveler, a rare incident is not necessarily one of little concern. In this thread alone, I counted maybe 10 incidences of being personally the victim or witnessing firsthand a victim. If you do a search, you find threads started by people who have been victims (and never thought it would happen to them). In nearly all cases, these are individuals with a healthy posting history, not a one-off poster. Not sure what percentage that rolls up to, but enough to register a concern, especially about an incident that can devastate a vacation.
• As a correlation, another topic that gets frequent questions and answers, and tales of experiences, is Travelers Insurance. One could easily argue that you are at no more risk in Europe than in the US, that it is a very rare occurrence that something would happen, and myself, in 20 years of travel, have never had an incident. But, it is still worth discussing ways to prevent an incident and precautions to take, like insurance, to mitigate the effect of any incident.

So is all of Europe a den of thieves waiting to pounce? No. Is the topic one of concern for a traveler and worth discussion? Definitely.

Decades ago I was in Rome sketching near the Colosseum. The roving band of Gypsy kids came over and wanted to see me sketching (it always attracts onlookers). They watched me a little but didn't try anything and I let them see my sketches. Later though, that same group tried to steal a man's wallet. I didn't see it happen but the guy caught the girl and had her in a arm lock from behind. He was reaching inside her shirt and after a few moments pulled out his wallet. Meanwhile the others were swarming him trying to swat him away. Once he had his wallet, he let her go and everyone moved on. No violence, but he got his wallet back. I'm pretty sure he was a local, not tourist.

A few years ago in Barcelona, friends and I were sitting outside at a restaurant for dinner. I didn't realize that one of my friends had set his phone on the table. A "beggar" came along and put a paper in front of him, meanwhile slipping the phone away. Luckily the waiter noticed and immediately came over and recovered the phone. The thief just left quickly but without further incident.

Just because a lot of us have not been a victim to a thief, it does not mean it can't happen to either a new traveler or one who is decades experienced - i.e. Rick Steves. Yes, if he lost 50€, it may not be a huge loss compared to a traveler who needs to account for every Euro and can't afford to lose an amount that large. And, getting a PP replaced or reporting stolen credit cards can be a pain and waste a lot of precious vacation time.

Inquiries like the above OP are important to a new traveler. Those of us from the US are accustomed to hearing of more violent muggings, thefts and assaults. Foreign travelers I have spoken to or come across also have a 'different view' of America - things that are not true or blown out of proportion. Maybe it is better to educate the new traveler on certain sensitive topics instead of degrading them.

Don't mess with the pickpockets. They are organized, they have back-up, and they know the area much better than you. The young woman trying to lift your wallet probably has some real muscle close by watching her and you. If you try to get violent with one, then you will get hurt or put in jail - and the pickpocketing will continue unabated.

Can I ask a question please?
Often I am reading recommendations to listen to Ricks audio guides will walking round a city, I take it that is with head phones of some sort? Well isn't that going to make you a lot less aware of what is going on around you, re pick pockets, traffic, other pedestrians etc. if all you can hear is your walking tour? It doesn't sound very sensible, or have I got totally the wrong end of the stick?????

It seems that pickpocketing is rampant throughout Europe, especially in big cities, like Rome.

What experience or factual evidence to you base that claim?

Have you ever traveled in Europe? Are you planning your first trip there?

I'm glad our European friends have spoken up to dispel the myth and also warn against aggressive behavior by pickpocketing victims.

Maybe it is better to educate the new traveler on certain sensitive topics instead of degrading them.

Maybe it's better to provide them with perspective and facts instead of hysterical and overblown claims.

I take it that is with head phones of some sort? Well isn't that going to make you a lot less aware of what is going on around you,

That's a good question, Caro. From my POV, maybe a person could use a single ear bud - it would take some discipline on concentrating on the audio.

But, the distractions/theft could be lessened if a money belt, neck wallet or a very strong cross body bag with good zippers or a messenger style for men or women, are worn. Of course, the purse or bag must be secured correctly. I prefer a cross body.

Backpacks, not secured properly or the travelers puts their valuables in an easy-to-reach area, are very vulnerable when in tight spaces.

Maybe it's better to provide them with perspective and facts instead of hysterical and overblown claims.

True. But still, there is no need to be insulting. As you quoted me, you can see I wrote similar - Educate. Scolding or demeaning a person's inquiry does not help anyone.

I agree that talk of pickpocketing is constant on this forum. Also the subject of money belts. Why is that so on this travel forum and not on other travel forums?

Enjoy your trip to Rome. While there is a potential of being pickpocketed, I wouldn't characterize it as rampant. I have been to Europe more than 30x and I have never once had anything stolen. A believe me, I am surprised the last time I was in Rome (June 2018) that someone in my party didn't have something stolen. My college-aged girls routinely left their wallets and phones on the table, left their purses open, and in general paid zero attention to their surroundings. This was the ideal situation for theft.

That said, while I have not be a victim of pickpocketing, I have had friends and colleagues who have, one of which confronted a pickpocketer on the metro in Barcelona and got his wallet back. This turned out okay, but in any situation, there are risks in confronting someone.

Take reasonable precautions with your belongings, keep items like passports safely tucked away (it is a pain to get them replaced while traveling) and you should be fine.

I agree that talk of pickpocketing is constant on this forum. Also the subject of money belts. Why is that so on this travel forum and not on other travel forums?

Not sure about constant, but it comes up often, and over the last year at least, triggers the scrum you see above. I think on other forums (Do a quick search on Tripadvisor) it does come up, particularly those that deal with Europe, it may just not create the "controversy" it does here.

But why here> Rick Steves and his organization have spent a great deal of time emphasizing "How" to travel rather than just "Where" to travel, so the topic, as well as the use of Money Belts is a common subject. I suspect the topic is also emphasized on the tour side of the business, so that population also has questions.

I guess the fact that always catches my attention is the first hand experiences by what appear to be frequent posters. If someone were to ask the question and the only responses were "Sorry, doesn't happen" or "Never Heard or Seen it happen" then the question would die and life moves on. But repeatedly, and who knows, maybe more on this board than others, nearly every question on Pick Pockets or Money belts is answered with multiple responses by people that have been direct victims. Not, "Oh I heard from a friend about a guy who lost his wallet" (Go above and count the number of responses) These are also people who post on here fairly often, so I take it they are not lying or making up a story, and the volume of instances, while small given hundreds or thousands of participants, seems significant enough that it is worthy of rationale discussion.

I guess, one might ask, is there something about the typical Rick Steves poster or traveler that makes them more susceptible to the crime? A better Target? Maybe. Being a tourist increases your chances I believe. Someone brought up the topic of listening to the Rick Steves Podcasts; that is actually an ill advised practice if walking, I usually suggest walking to one of the locations, then find a seat or out of the way spot to listen. Or maybe it is one of a hundred other things (My bet is on those that wear shorts!)

But the bottom line still is...It happens, it happens more to tourists, if it happens to you and you lose your only ATM card, Credit card, and your passport, your long planned trip is in serious jeopardy. So advice on how to avoid an issue, how to build redundancy in your financial resources, and other measures to mitigate the problem is warranted.

I agree there is no need to exaggerate the issue or get into judgement about certain groups or minorities, nor should the issue be minimized or offense taken by a resident, just answer the question and move on.

I agree with Paul, I do see it spoken about on other forums. I do not fear pickpockets or get too excited about it, but I have seen it happen when I travel to Europe and I have had friends who have been pickpocketed, so I dont think it is terrible to warn people to pay attention. Don't leave your bag unattended, pay attention in crowded spaces, dont leave stuff on the table without watching it. I was shocked how many tourists I found setting their bags or purses on the ground and then wandering several feet away looking for the perfect selfie position. I follow these rules and in several trips have not had a problem. On the other hand, I have two friends who on different trips had their phones stolen, I suspect that a decreased level of awareness due to alcohol consumption may have been involved.

The fact of the matter is, many of us in the US do not live in large cities like New York, and pickpocketing and petty theft isn't as common here. On the other hand, violent crime is much more common. I don't fault people for trying to warn others of common scams or ways they have been caught unaware, but there is no reason for fearmonger about it.

Occasionally we teach travel courses at the local library and for that I have now collected about ten pages of anecdotal accounts of pickpocketing mostly from this site over the past ten years or so. Some are humorous such as the lifting of credit cards from her bra - didn't feel a thing - to really sad situations where everything was taken -- because they kept everything in one place. At the risk of being accused of blaming the victim, the point I make with the examples is that in nearly all of the case, it is obvious the theft could have been avoided with simply precautions or prior actions. Pickpockets are professional in their own way. The idea that a pickpocketer will brush against you and walk away with your watch, billfold, and two gold teeth happens only in the movies or on uTube. The average pickpocketer is not going to walk through a crowd sticking his or her hand in ten pockets with the hope of finding something in one or two. And it is rare for pickpocketers to work alone. If you are the target, you will be set up, generally because of some prior action on your part, and there will be a distraction, you will be hit, and the probability of you knowing it is very low. You are in control do not set yourself up to be a victim.

That leads to my one of my principal axioms -- If it is easy for you to access it, then it is just as easy for the pickpocket to access it. And -- second -- never have anything of great value in any of your pockets and that includes the front pockets. There are other things you can do but these two are the most important. You do not have to be a victim if you exercise simple precautions.

This may be the right time to tell this story about theft and fear of retaliation from the thief.

I lived in Nuremberg 1982-1985. My BFF, an almost lifelong resident of Chicago, came to visit during that time. We took the train to Paris and spent a few nights.

One day we sat on the flip down seats right by an entrance to a Metro car. People's waists, pockets and purses were right at our eye level.

There was a nicely dressed French woman standing facing the door. A man much taller than her stepped onto the car facing her. The door was still open.

I could see him open her purse which was in front of her. In my lousy French, I called her attention to what he was doing. She caught him. He quietly stepped backwards off the train, the doors closed and we were on our way.

She thanked me for preventing the theft. I asked her what a person like that was called. She said, "le pickpocket." My friend and I got a good laugh out of that.

Then my friend asked me why I spoke up. I told her it was an immediate reaction. I didn't think. She said she would never have said anything because she'd be afraid of being knifed by the pickpocket, even though he was 3 layers of people away from us.

I'd never lived in a big city and had lived in Nuremberg over a year at the time. I didn't expect to be physically harmed. She'd spent very little time living outside a big city and expected physical harm from even the slightest confrontation.

In spite of many years of friendship, we had (and still have) totally different viewpoints on situations like this. I suspect that's true for many travelers, newbies and experienced alike.

Wouldn't it be helpful if alongside the 10 pages of pickpocketing stories people were also given 10 pages on trips where nothing went wrong and locals were actually kind and helpful? Just for balance!

Emma, I just returned from a week in the French countryside and a week in London and I could give you 10 pages of what you request just on that trip alone!

We met up with our grandson, who just spent his first college year studying in Paris. He had absolutely no problems the entire time he was there. We had no problems in France or London and the locals were extremely kind and helpful.

I think a lot of it is attitude. I believe folks can sense when you are suspicious of everyone and constantly have your guard up. They also respond positively when you are cheerful and upbeat.

I will share a little story about my grandson. As we were riding the escalator up in one of the Underground stations, I noticed my grandson had his wallet in the back pocket of his skinny jeans. Later I asked him about it and he says that's where he always carries it and he's never had a problem. I just can't be that nonchalant, but I did not take a money belt on this trip and never felt I needed it, even during rush hour using the Underground.

Best wishes and I hope to see you (at least figuratively)again soon.

A very good teacher of mine once told me if you don't understand why a person or group is offended by a comment you should swap out their identity for one of your own, to see how you like it. "It seems that pickpocketing is rampant throughout the USA" etc. Its a simple trick that really does help understanding.

I agree with your sentiment, but I do not think the intent is to insult a city or a people. I have stated above why this is an important topic for a traveler, to ignore the topic would be silly when, as a number of examples have shown, it has had real impact on travelers. The same could be said for Train strikes, problems with hotels, and a myriad of issues. As for reversing the situation, that is certainly a good question to ask, but only if it helps with the original posters question. There have already been a number of responses on here countering with the point that in the US everyone gets mugged at gunpoint. I typically do not take that bait, but I can say that I never have in my near half century, nor any of my family, nor any of my hundreds of acquaintances. I do not take it as an affront to the US or my City, nor do I even think (other than this one instance) that it bears discussion on this forum.

Wouldn't it be helpful if alongside the 10 pages of pickpocketing stories people were also given 10 pages on trips where nothing went wrong and locals were actually kind and helpful? Just for balance!

I also agree with this sentiment, in fact daily on this forum I read dozens of reports and recommendations by travelers that had the trip of a lifetime with no issues and share that with everyone and work to make others trips just as wonderful. I think what often occurs in specific topics is a bit of "News Bias"; Sin Sells and sensational events are newsworthy. The observation that everything was just OK and Average today does not get much notice.

Emma, I am interested to find that continuing discussions on pickpockets can be so hurtful for people living in Europe. I can imagine it gets old to have people having excessive fear over something you find to be a minimal problem, but I have had the impression that most of the discussions have been for the purpose of making people be aware of their surroundings, not to create fear or insult an entire continent.

In almost every one of these discussions on pickpocketing, someone has said something along the lines of "well, at least pickpockets aren't violent. You have to worry about gun violence everywhere you go in the US." And my reaction to that is usually to think that while nothing like that has ever happened to me personally, I am aware that there is a lot more gun violence here than there is elsewhere. If truth be told, I am a lot more aware of my surroundings, the people around me, and where my exits are when I am in public, crowded spaces. I don't think people should be afraid to travel here, but I don't begrudge them discussions of how they have to be more cautious of not getting into dangerous or violent situations while they are here. I don't feel like it is a personal attack on my country, just a sad reality.

I guess I don't feel it is intended to be an insult, it's just that because this is a European forum, we talk about the risks associated with traveling to Europe, which are basically extremely minimal and isolated mostly to petty theft. I would take that as a compliment of the continent, really. When I travel to New York City, people warn me about pickpockets. When I travel to Chicago people warn me about gun violence. When I moved to Florida, people warned me about hurricanes. When I go out on New Year's Eve, people warn me about drunk driving. When I go to Mexico people talk about not drinking the water. It just seems to be what people do, its not meant to be personal, I don't think. I do feel badly if it is taken that way.

In Barcelona, pickpockets have always been associated with tourists, walk a block away from the main touristy areas and the "rampant pickpocketing" problem magically disappears. The only exception would be on the metro, however pickpockets usually stay away from us locals, they can easly spot a tourist among a group of commuters.

I once "went undercover" as a tourist in Barcelona, so to speak, and wore a Hawaiian shirt on the metro, almost immediately a group of Romanians approached me to ask for "directions" in English, as soon as I opened my mouth and spoke in Catalan they immediately left, didn't even wait for my directions lol.

Ha! Carlos, that is a funny story. Perhaps this helps explain the disparity between why tourists talk about pickpockets so much and locals think it is overblown? We are in the most touristy areas, looking out of place, not speaking the language, and are highly distracted, so we are a perfect target. Most tourists I know to Europe have either been pickpocketed or witnessed it happen to someone else on at least one of their trips, so to us it seems pretty common. Locals don't tend to frequent as many of those areas, and they look like locals, so it makes sense they wouldn't experience it as often. That might help explain why Rick Steves and his proponents talk about precautions such as money belts, while locals think the idea of wearing a money belt is ridiculous and unnecessary. Totally different experiences of the same place.

It should also be noted by Internet Tough Guys that in most European countries self-defence is legally limited to what is proportional to the situation - no "stand your ground"/"make my day" laws.

I cannot speak for all of Europe, but Germany has a self-defense right that goes quite far (and, from what I understand, exceeds the "stand your ground" laws in many US states). Self defense includes the defense of your property. You are not allowed to use more force than necessary to defend yourself (which includes getting your property back). But that force does not generally have to be proportionate.

Beating the crap out of somebody over a non-violent attempted theft will get you deservedly done for GBH.

This is also true in Germany. As soon as the attempt (to steal the purse etc.) is over, there is no more right to self defense.

...... Most tourists I know to Europe have either been pickpocketed or witnessed it happen to someone else ..... But this is exactly the kind of statement that Emma objects to and so do I. It is that causal, somewhat over the top statement, that implies, rightly or wrongly, almost everyone will be pickpocketed. It is that broad, paint brush stroke that probably has no facts behind it. In our circles of friends, probably a dozen or more, who have been to Europe, some several times, only one was pickpocketed. Everybody knows because he talks about how stupid he was --- in hindsight. At the time he thought he was smart. One problem is that people tend to take their experiences as the norm, and expect everyone else to have similar experience. A little human nature.

Emma may not like my ten pages of pickpocketing experiences but I use those examples to illustrate how one or two simple actions prior may have prevented the occurrence and what can be learned from that experience. In my former academic world we call them -- case studies. I don't need ten pages of positive experiences to illustrate my points. Everything needs to be understood within context.

I can understand that, Emma. The precautions you would take when visiting my hometown, which is in the countryside in the Midwest where no one even locks their doors, is much different then the ones they would take when visiting where I live now, or any of the larger cities in the US. Over generalizations can always be a problem. It is a shame people have been rude to you when you have simply been kind.

Frank, I apologize if you take exception to my statement, but it is true that among me and my friends who have traveled internationally, we have each seen a pickpocketing or they have been pickpocketed themselves. That is not to say that it is "rampant" there, but it is certainly more common than what we experience in our hometown, so it is prudent to pay more attention. If you want to play statistics, if I see one person get pickpocketed on a 3 week trip to several large European cities, than how many thousands of people did I see not get pickpocketed? So my statement wasn't meant to say that it is a rampant problem, but just that it seems like a much more common problem to us than it is here where I live. It seems very difficult to know the true statistics, as so much goes unreported.

And, it could be just as easy to say something about your friends security practices or lack of practices, than to suggest that pickpocketing is common. Your experience is your experience and mine experiences are mine and they obviously don't match up. In nearly a years travel in some of the great pickpocket capitols of the world, I have never seen an actual pickpocket. What am I doing wrong since so many others see pickpockets everyday? I had seen a few questionable situations but there are other explanations. But it is safe to say is that most tourists will not be pickpocketed.

I agree that most will never be pickpocketed. I never meant to suggest otherwise. Once again, a written forum is not the best place to have one's intentions understood, and I feel I have not made my thoughts clear on the subject matter.

My overall point is that I believe a person is unlikely to be a victim of a crime in Europe, so there is no reason to have fear, but that there are certain crimes that are more prevalent in large European cities (and cities all over the world, but this is a forum about Europe) such as pickpocketing that can be easily prevented with some simple awareness. And that a discussion about these preventative measures are not meant to be offensive to people who live in Europe, or to suggest that it is rampant.

Just as an example, the statistics show that the number of reported pickpocketing incidents on the London Underground is about 11 per day. Maybe unsurprisingly the top 3 places are King’s Cross St Pancras, Oxford Circus and Victoria - all busy stations and ones particularly frequented by non-locals, and two of them entry points (Eurostar and Gatwick). You are more likely to be picked on if you are under 30 and female.

Eleven per day is almost nothing. We have that many shootings each day in Chicago. Earlier I took those same numbers and use Victoria station as an example and considering the amount of traffic through Victoria especially during daylight hours with some adjustments for under reporting, etc., and calculated the probability of a single pickpocket at 1 in 600,000. And that is valid only if you hung out at Victoria for eight hours during peak usage. If you only pass through Victoria for ten minutes or so the number is very hard to determine but could well be into 1 in several million. I would conclude that the probability of being pickpocketed while passing through Victoria station on an given day would be close to zero. You would have better luck with a lottery ticket.

However, I think that Tamara does have a very good point, I agree that there are generally two worlds in a major touristy city like Barcelona, that can potentially manifest itself into two different experiences in the same city, i.e. the tourist vs. the local, for me I might not think there is so rampant a pickpocketing problem, as I don't go walking down las Ramblas every day in an Panama hat and an expensive camera slung around my shoulders.

That "experience gap" can at times be quite big, thats way you have many of these travel companies trying to bridge that gap through more local interactions i.e. "living like a local", going "off the beaten path" and the "back door" approach of Mr. Steves.

WOW....

I did not expect this type and number of responses. Actually, I'm quite pleased and grateful to everyone who has responded to this thread. I respect all of your opinions.

Oddly enough, this thread veered a bit off from my original question which was along the lines of, if the pickpocket tries his craft on someone who maybe had not such a great day and wasn't in the mood to be messed with, then the pickpocket might get his life practically pummeled out of him. You don't really hear of stories like that, but you do see lots of stories where people lost their property and never knew it was happening.

Back to the commentary that ensued from my original post...

Sorry about using such a charged word, "rampant". However, I sort of stand with it as it seems relevant to various cities in Europe where there is heavy tourist traffic. I recently heard a story from someone at work who got hit in Rome. I agree that only a small minority of people get hit, but it's still common enough to raise eyebrows. It's a numbers game; it might not be a large percentage that get hit, but a small percentage can still mean a lot of people are getting their vacations seriously screwed up. And on occasion, I have to imagine that poor stupid, thief might get his lights knocked out.

Rick Steves makes it a point to discuss this issue in his travel skills videos and book sections. Plus, he even had an anecdote where a majority of his tour group were all hit during a tour!

Personally, I witnessed a shell scam occurring during my stay in Paris in the summer of 2015. It was amusing to watch, especially since I felt a bit educated after reading up on this in Rick's books.

I'm not oblivious to trying to keep myself and my property safe when in Europe. I've been there three times and this next trip through Italy will be my fourth (second time to Italy; major cities will be Rome, Florence, and Venice).

• I will use a money belt (not sure if I will keep passport there or back in hotel; extra credit card; ATM card; extra cash)
• I will have a backpack
• I will have an SLR camera and will black out the brand in the front. I will carry it with strap going across my chest and underarm.
• I will carry nothing of value in my back pockets
• I have a smart phone which I need easy access to (if I can't carry it in my front pocket nor in a backpack for fear of that getting swiped where the heck would I keep it?). Initially my plan is that it's a big enough phone to fit snugly in my front pocket that I feel fairly comfortable that will be not so simple to steal without me blatantly knowing it.
• Small cash/credit card will go in a money clip deep in my other front pocket (same as phone that should be kind of difficult for someone to go after without me knowing it).

Especially with that camera, I'm sure I'll look like a tourist. I plan on being vigilant in crowded areas (i.e. metro/bus stops) and heavy tourist spots.

Again, thanks everyone for your great comments. I totally get it when some seem put off by the fact this gets brought up and gives the appearance of being scary to some. That really wasn't my intent here. I know that the vast majority of Europe is free from this type of crap. And, for the record, I absolutely love Europe and have the utmost respect for the continent and the people.

Yes b, (Prethen),

You'll get lively responses on certain topics.

As I mentioned, Rome is pretty safe and not a violent city. And since you shared that you have traveled to Europe before, then a lot of suggestions are familiar to you.

I traveled to Rome (twice so far) as a solo female. I never felt threatened. I used common sense of course. And, I kept my wits about me when having wine.

Actually, I walked around Rome different times of day and night; on buses at times. No issues. I found many to be very friendly and helpful.

I personally carry my Passport. I consider that my life line for abroad. In case of any emergency, I have Euro, my card and my PP to leave the country if need be.

Also, another very good reason to carry a PP is for a solo traveler's medical emergency. With that in mind, I carry an index card or two (tucked inside my PP) with some general information on it - USA doc's name, immediate family's name, blood type, OTC's I may be taking, any allergies I may have. If I am rendered unable to communicate, I want the docs/EMT's to treat me quickly.

... kind of difficult for someone to go after without me knowing it ..... How many references would like me to send you of loses from front pockets? A front pocket is only marginally more safe than a back pocket.

Yeah, I'm not thrilled with carrying my passport in the moneybelt because it tends to curl up in there and it's a bit stiff. If I don't carry it, I will carry photocopies of it and any vital information about myself in my moneybelt.

How many references would like me to send you of loses from front pockets? A front pocket is only marginally more safe than a back pocket.

This is the part that is extremely frustrating. Okay, assume I have zero pockets. Where exactly would you expect someone to carry anything? I'm aware the thieves have knives to slash off the straps from purses and backpacks. Should I keep all my small cash in my shoes, underwear, wife's bra...where? And, bury the phone deep in a backpack (hoping that doesn't get lifted, of course)? How about if I need it for directions, using it occasionally as a translator, information source, audio tours?

I will have an SLR camera and will black out the brand in the front. I will carry it with strap going across my chest and underarm.

You are making good plans to be safe. I don't think you need to black out your camera name. They can tell Canon or Nikon through other clues. Besides, very few people carry DSLRs anymore and I don't think they are as big a target as they once were.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I use Peak Design's wrist strap or the Peak Design Sling. I also use the Tenba DNA bag, which is small and discreet. In some situations I use the wrist strap, which is easily disconnected, then slide my camera in the top opening of the bag and zip it up. This works well for situations where I won't be shooting. Other times I use the sling in the manner you describe. The sling makes it easy to raise the camera to the eye even in a cross body situation. I've even shot in Europe with two mirrorless bodies - one on a wrist strap and the other on a sling.

Well Prethen, A lot of people carry their phones out and about, of course. It is needed for directions, communicating with a tour guide, to make restaurant reservations, or to communicate with the hotel, AirBnB, etc. You won't need a death grip on it. It was just suggested that you not leave out phones on tables where they can be easily taken.

Some men wear a cross body 'document' bag. It is slim and holds the essentials. I don't know - just sort of throwing out suggestions. If you wear a back pack, it's not a huge deal - just secure your valuables well - that's all.

Regarding backpacks, some places in Rome won't allow the big packs - you'd have to check it. That could impede further plans.

The Vatican and St. Peter's have security checks - they do allow backpacks of a small to medium size. No food. Water bottles are to be secured in your bag. The Borghese Gallery allows no bags. So that is where a money belt would definitely come in handy for your monetary valuables.

The Colosseum allows bags of small to medium size also.

Stuff happens, but rare. An experienced World Traveler - Mark from Wolter's World (he is on YT) - stated in one of his videos that his Mother in Law had her purse straps slashed - she had the Pacsafe or similar. They noticed seven attempted slashes. I think that is the extreme though. I'm sure he did not make it up, but incidents like that "now" are extremely rare, if at all. He also stated someone stole his baby's diaper bag. Odd. But that was a long time ago.

Bottom line - You will be your own best defense. Stay alert, keep a big city awareness. Secure your valuables the best you can and use common sense while out and about. I'm sure you and your family be fine.

The security guard prodded him in the abdomen with his stick to knock the wind out of him, but still he thrashed around.
They got another cuff on him and tried to sit him on a bench

Wow. What happened to the thief thereafter? (I initially misread your post, oops. So the SA guy stole a wallet and the family was trying to get it back.)

Thanks for reporting back. Horrible all around.

(I replied initially to what I "thought I read" - the six people were trying to rob the one guy. oops.

That brings to mind something I witnessed in Boston a long time ago. I was on my lunch hour, shopping at Filene's. All of a sudden, there was a huge ruckus, yelling. I saw this young man trying to get away from Boston police and/or undercovers. He knocked over round racks of clothes. I jumped out of the way since I was in his beeline. He ran right by me. They got him before he got to run out the "rear door", held him down and cuffed him.

I was shaken because he was so close and could have grabbed me as a shield. After I gained composure. I went up to the Manager's office and gave him the what for.

While I understand they had to apprehend him for whatever he allegedly stole, still I thought it was pretty stupid to put the customers in danger like that (on the selling floor) not knowing what that guy would do in desperation. The manager apologized and tried to appease me by saying no one was in danger. "Please, I said...Really? The guy was a few feet from me while you were sitting in your cushy office."

I've got to wonder that sometimes the pickpocket gets unlucky on occasion and picks the wrong victim.

Your post was in line with the OP's above inquiry. You witnessed such an event, and apparently it went down really bad.

But, I have not heard or read about anything like that in Rome or most of Italy. Not saying it doesn't happen. There is good and bad everywhere.

a team of multi-national sociologists recently published a paper on how readings of police procedurals and private detective fiction can be used to help read and 'diagnose' societal weaknesses and failings.

re: pickpocket skill levels, the response was, "Guns. When the gun comes out the conversation stops.

Your second reply is very interesting.

In my trips in the 1970s to the early 1990s, I made 7 trips to Europe, always carried the wallet American style in the back left pocket. One American guy in west Berlin told me on my first trip that was one way he spotted me out as American, ie wallet in left pocket, ... I was a bit surprised. but still continued the practice putting it in the back pocket on subsequent trips.

In the mid-1990s I changed to wearing the wallet in the front pocket...much better than in the rear pockets, have been doing that ever since.

Where the wallet is, is also a few 3x5 notes cards held together by 2 small binder clips. "They " put their hand there , it'll not be cloth greeting the hand but metal clips.

@ Carlos...Bravo on the use of the Hawaiian shirt as a way of making oneself more conspicuous. I have yet to try that since I figure i have tourist written all over me anyway, even without having to wear a Hawaiian shirt to broadcast "tourist" even more loudly.

If confronted by those Romanians, I use the German language bit...."Na und? Nein! Ich muß mal überlegen ( I have to think about it) That response totally baffles them...used once.

Pickpockets do get attacked by their "marks" from time-to-time, but it's probably not a good idea to do that. As others have noted, pickpockets often travel in groups of 5 - 6 so a potential victim could find themselves in a bad situation.

This didn't occur in Europe, but THIS is one example of someone who decisively dealt with a pickpocket.

This didn't occur in Europe, but THIS is one example of someone who decisively dealt with a pickpocket. (if interested to read, link is in Ken's post)

Wow. Don't mess with a Marine.

What's Italy like for accepting one of the digital payment methods? Unless the purchase is really small, I always use a credit card.

The "risk" of using a credit card is much reduced in most of Europe because of the hand held card readers that the waiter presents to the table. Unlike the US you never lose control or sight of your credit card. We don't use the digital approach simply because we don't have our cell phones with us much in Europe. We know it is un-American but we will go days without looking at our cell phones.

We found very little acceptance of Apple Pay and the like in Italy this year. Credit cards were widely accepted. I would never carry a credit card in a pocket, front or back. In my front pocket is 50 Euros or so for coffee, gelato, the like. My credit card is in my money belt. At restaurants I go to the WC, take out the card, pay, return to the WC to put it back (unless I can wiggle it in under the table). I’m ready to lose the pocket cash, but not a credit card. The hassle of reporting it, being down one card, just not worth it to me.

What's Italy like for accepting one of the digital payment methods? Unless the purchase is really small, I always use a credit card.

Hi,

Italy, especially Rome, accepts Debit cards (used as a credit) and the traditional credit cards. The "Mom and Pop" corner markets, smaller, privately owned gift shops, and maybe some smaller Tabacchi stores may prefer cash - unless you are buying a few things.

Restaurants are mostly no problem. I pretty much paid in Euro though. I can't speak on "pizza by the slice" or Gelato shops for credit purchases.

I know my first trip to Rome two years ago, I went to the corner market near my hotel. My purchase came to about 20€. I took out my Cap One, but the cashier said "cash only." I had Euro on me, so no problem. Just a heads up though.

Of course, keep in mind, you'll get a decent exchange rate when using the credit card. Just remember to not accept the "DCC" which puts your purchase at a higher exchange rate.

If you are getting Euro out of a brick and mortar bank, of course keep in mind the exchange rate and withdrawal fee (if any) your bank will charge. Also, your bank's "daily withdrawal limit" will affect how much Euro you can take out. Some banks will allow you to increase the limit for your travels.

To the best of my knowledge, Italian banks don't charge a surcharge for withdrawals. I could be wrong since my last trip was in December.

Even though some or most credit card companies state it is not necessary to notify of them travels, I always do. For example, Boston to Heathrow to Rome. Not a huge deal to call my bank and put the travel dates/countries on my accounts.

To buy metro tickets from a kiosk, credit cards are accepted.

I would focus on prevention, not revenge. In Athens, where I lost 50 E, the security guard said that there were many pickpockets on the Metro and they work together, calling others to indicate who is coming. So, secure your valuables. Revenge may cause more problems. That being said, we were hassled by a group of foreign persons in Athens, and I am going to report where and when to the Athens police.

Personally, I have not witnessed any such case of a victim turning on the perpetrator. The only places where these seem to happen are, blogs and websites, books or movies lolllll.
Though a common occurrence in all such cases I had watched or read about was the fact that the supposed victims had an experience in self defense or karate or something.
So if you are hoping to be able to turn the tables on the attacker, it would most probably be wise to take some self defence classes first. Hope this helps

We know it is un-American but we will go days without looking at our
cell phones.

Un-American? Per capita The UK, Holland, Sweden, Germany are all ahead of us:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_smartphone_penetration

Not so, in regards to the "victim" turning on the culprit. True, I have not seen it in Europe, as yet, that is, but certainly in SF. On one occasion "victim" dared the culprit to come closer to him...he didn't. the culprit chickened out. This was in the late 1980s.

My friend, who has lived in Rome for many years, advised us to shout "al ladro!" (stop thief!) if we sensed that we were getting pick-pocketed (especially on a bus or metro). She said that Italians will immediately come to your aid.

Fortunately, we didn't have to use this technique in Rome; however, my husband was the victim of a failed pick-pocket attempt in Barcelona (all he had in his jacket pockets was sunglasses and a ball cap - which it seems the thief didn't want!) Husband's valuables were safe in a money belt under his shirt.

...... Most tourists I know to Europe have either been pickpocketed or
witnessed it happen to someone else ..... But this is exactly the kind
of statement that Emma objects to and so do I. It is that causal,
somewhat over the top statement, that implies, rightly or wrongly,
almost everyone will be pickpocketed.

I live in the Chicago region. I am in the city a lot, and often travel on public transit. I drive through and within "bad" neighborhoods far more than the average person. I have NEVER seen a violent crime or had one attempted on me. But of course I still take basic precautions and am aware that Chicago does have a crime problem.

In the cumulative couple of years I have been in Europe (all over), I have seen pickpocketing attempts, had several attempts on me and know of many friends and family that have been victims. I have also witnessed a violent fight on a Berlin subway.

Just as I would warn people to take certain precautions when traveling in certain parts of Chicago, I warn people to take precautions when traveling in certain parts of Europe. I do know people that paint all of Chicago as dangerous and scary, and that can be frustrating as it is not based on fact and reality. But one can not ignore that FACT that pickpocketing is a issue in many European cities, and people need to take precautions. The pickpockets are targeting tourists, and this forum is for tourists.

I've got to assume there's a victim out there that has turned that
pickpocket's day into a very bad one. Anyone ever hear of this
happening...especially in Italy? I've looked online and only seen a
couple of anecdotal videos/stories.

I APPLAUD when a target of a pickpocket can take the situation in hand and make that pickpocket wish he/she had never met that person. That cannot happen enough!!

I plan on being in Rome later this year and I already know to be on my
guard and to play it safe with my valuables. I

Please leave your "valuables" at home.