Personal Space

Nightmare scenario: On my husband's last flight before the pandemic, home from Europe on a business trip. He was in economy and the person next to him was physically pressed against him due to size for the entire flight (thighs underneath the arm rest), and of course the flight was completely full and there was absolutely nothing he could do short of asking to be let off and humiliating the other passenger (and getting stuck in an airport). I am sure that could happen in premium economy as well, and his company only offers business for long haul. I could only have survived such a scenario with xanax. The airlines simply have to make the damn seats bigger--people are not getting smaller. It is unconscionable to put people in that situation and the flight attendant should have done something. We are both small people and we find the seats uncomfortable--I have no idea how larger people do it.

I have ridden public transit all my life. At times, I wonder how it is that we are comfortable sitting flush against a stranger's thigh for prolonged periods of time. Subways or LRT have people talking with friends about the most intimate things 4 inches from my ear. Things are pretty close in my home town. However, after riding the dala dalas in Tanzania, home transit feels spacious; so I don't think too much about it in Europe. Not sure how it will go when I go to SEAsia and India.
I thought I would check what North American's consider 'personal space' and this article was enlightening. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/24/how-close-is-too-close-depends-on-where-you-live/
For a personal space story, I'll refer back to the dala dalas. These are vans with as many bucket seats added as they can manage. It carries people, but also market produce, undiapered babies and live chickens. I am 'pleasantly plump' and the Tanzanians in the area I was in were often 'not'. They have spent their life working bony elbows into flesh to carve out their piece of the seat and air space. My trip to the volunteer location was a 'walk/dala dala/ walk/ dala dala/walk' transit each way. Second dala dala was the longest. It was parked at the market, and it would leave when deemed 'full'. I would have a small backpack for my daily stuff and often end up sitting forward hunkered over the pack on my lap (thanks to the elbows). At times there was someone' produce basket on my lap if I was on the end, or a basket of some fresh (thankfully dead) fish. They say getting peed on by one of the babies is good luck, but thankfully those rides were infrequent. The space at the running board and just in front of the back doors were the last to fill and one had to decide whether to enter front or back first. If front, and a woman, the person on the seat would either get an eye full of cleavage, or the occasional brush of a mobile appendage. Alternatively, It would be some trousered butt in the face. They were pretty practiced at avoiding contact, however, the new potholes added an extra layer of uncertainty.
So, even 'steerage' can be considered very roomy by some.

Mike, I'm guessing you haven't been on the NY or other urban subways much during rush hour. There is no expectation of ample personal space, it's "negotiated" through body language and sometimes snark or speaking up, although the latter is rare because people know the drill, they're all in it together, and what's the point of upping the ante? Everyone has stepped on someone's heel or foot at some point, it's hard not to. Having said that, even public transport has some unwritten rules of behavior (specific to that system or place - in my case, "no eating while riding" is one) and rogue actors get the stink eye from everyone if they don't follow them. You either get used to it or you separate yourself from others by paying for premium seats (on planes) or eschewing public transport, driving your car and sitting in mindless traffic.

In some countries overseas (not Europe), they have these microbuses that go from one point to another, which are great/ convenient/ flexible. Those little buses are filled to the gills and sometimes there is someone hanging out the open door throughout the whole ride. So it's all relative. Either way, you're in tight spaces with more people than comfortably fit. Sometimes, you just gotta take a breather, close your eyes, and suck it up. Or don't get on in the first place.

Agnes, I have been the country bumpkin on "big city" public transportation, but it takes me a few rides to figure out the informal rules. I realized quickly you can't be overly polite. Interesting that I have not seen much eating on the Metro. Doesn't seem to me a very appetizing place to eat, really.

I'm still old school enough to give up my seat to pregnant women, sometimes women in general, old folks, and others. I'm healthy and can stand.

valadelphia, no, people are most certainly not getting smaller lol.

I used to go up to Boston quite a bit for work, so I rode the T there. They allowed food/ eating on their metro system and Dunkin Donuts was just about everywhere. Same on the NY system (except for the Dunkin). In Washington DC, no food and eating allowed, although some locals flout the rules. That's probably why there is less trash and rats everywhere.

valadelphia, no, people are most certainly not getting smaller lol.

I forgot the funny part of the story--it was overall quite traumatic to have someone's sweat on him after the ordeal. My husband was on the aisle, the lady in the center, and during the miserable meal service, she asked the person in the window seat if she could have his uneaten roll.

I forgot the funny part of the story--it was overall quite traumatic
to have someone's sweat on him after the ordeal. My husband was on the
aisle, the lady in the center, and during the miserable meal service,
she asked the person in the window seat if she could have his uneaten
roll.

I'd say, "Sure, have whatever you want."

Yeah, getting someone else's sweat on you is rough.

Get me to a shower, please.

When I lived in Taipei many years ago, I traveled by very crowded buses on a daily basis. There were young ladies that sat by the door, whose job was to smash the door against the passengers until it closed. On several occasions I felt overly friendly hands on my body, and I would say very loudly in Mandarin something like, "Get your hands off my breasts. That is not okay." This was effective because they were- shocked I had the nerve and ability to do this (I do not look Chinese). Well, ever since those days, I have had little personal space issues.

Donna K, my sister used to work in Japan and she changed her commute times to be off peak, as she couldn't stand seeing the younger women being groped by the 3 piece suited men. She at 5'10" with red hair was left alone, however. The young ones were too timid to speak up; so I think it was also a case that you as a woman spoke up at all, that may have caused the stir.

When we are in Ukraine we always travel by mashrukas, little twenty passenger busses that travel all over the place. A bus driver will stop whenever someone is standing waiting for a ride. We always buy tickets at the bus terminals to assure a seat. I have had more rear ends and front ends in my face than I can remember. People just keep packing on standing in the aisle two or three deep, people standing on the steps, people sitting on the seat beside the driver. Its really interesting when a person in the back of the bus wants to get out at a little pathway that leads off into the trees, every one gets thoroughly jostled. You get to not only get jostled but you get to whiff in the aroma, which is interesting. This is a sure way to get to know the local populace. Really.

MariaF, you may be right. I seldom heard of the local women saying anything. I thought that was because they weren't molested, but it could be that they just didn't speak up.

I’ve had my fair share of people taking up a good portion of my airline seat but this video is unbelievable.
https://www.google.com/search?q=video+of+japanes+overcrowded+trains&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

Diane, your video is something else. I had to laugh at myself because I thought the train workers were going to go and have the people stop shoving........ Boy, was I wrong!

I have an ability to completely tune out my surroundings and so am rarely bothered by body part spillage onto my seat. My wife is jealous and angry at the same time because my only superpower also gives me the ability to tune her out...

There is a sportswriter named Peter King who used to write a weekly online column for Sports Illustrated and he would regularly update the readers of his outrageous experiences on his flights. My favourite is when he sat down, only to see the guy in the next seat clipping his toenails. Here's hoping I never have to try and tune that out.

I don't even like single spaced receipts!

Interesting Washington Post article linked above, though the findings it reports are based on people being surveyed instead of actually observed. The most crowding I can remember was on a bus in Mexico City, standing in the aisle with hands on overhead bars, thinking a pickpocket could have a free shot at any pocket except there was no room to move his arm. I don't remember feeling too compressed on the NYC subway when I lived there (40-50 years ago). And things can get pretty tight on the San Francisco cable cars, though escape is easy.

I grew up in Washington DC, and moved out here in my 30s. Returning for a few years in DC after nearly 20 years here, I noticed that people seemed to stand closer together in supermarket lines and such. My wife, who grew up in NYC before moving west, noticed the same. We got used to it. So I agree with Mike, it can be regional within a country. I've had a few space-consuming neighbors on flights but thankfully none as bad as others have described. Now I look for premium economy on longer flights, mostly for the legroom. At this moment I'd put up with a lot of discomfort just to fly safely.

Not a fan of being crowded in too close either.
At least if it's a bus or train, you may have the option to wait for the next one to avoid crowds, (if you're lucky); but no luck if you are in a squidged- in position on an aircraft.
If you are getting on my flight; please make sure you know what soap, water, deodorant and toothpaste are.
That same day please.

My friend and I got on a bus in Naples at rush hour a few years ago, as we were too tired to walk back to the apartment after spending all day in Pompeii.
She was sitting, and I was standing next to her, eventually I was almost sitting in her lap as more and more people squashed on, then I felt a hand on my backside.
I said loudly to her "Right, we're getting off right now, there's a hand on my bum!"
No idea whose, but people around me smiled politely as they let us off.
You can have my armrest on the plane, but don't touch me otherwise!

This thread seems like a good opportunity for me to again refer folks to author Joe Lurie's book on intercultural (mis)communication called "Perception and Deception: A Mind-Opening Journey Across Cultures", now available in a 2nd edition:
https://www.amazon.com/Perception-Deception-Mind-Opening-Journey-Cultures/dp/0970846363/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1610165215&refinements=p_27%3AJoe+Lurie&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Joe+Lurie

A selling point for the RS tours is that there are always fewer people on the bus than there are seats - have any of you, like me, been on tour buses in South America or East Asia where there were more people on the bus than seats, and this wasn't considered unusual? I don't mean the commuter subway, I mean commercial paid tourist buses or minibuses. Many is the time when the bus has fold down seats in the center aisle with every one occupied and still there were more butts than seats overall.

Peseros in Mexico City are a great cheap convenient way to get around but at certain times of the day you can't see well enough to tell where the bus is actually at because there's too many body parts and packages blocking your vision in all directions. Ten cuidado!

Trains are different than planes. On a train, I can either ask the person to stop man-spreading (yes, this is a thing in Germany), or to move their bag, or I can get up and move.
On a plane, this is not possible really. I got stuck on a flight from Seattle to Iceland with a gigantic woman who oozed into at least half my seat, if not more. I could have maybe put up with this, but she smelled so horrid, I thought I would get sick. Spent most of the flight trying to lay onto my adult daughter and with my face either covered up or facing the window. This is disgusting and not fair to other passengers to get onto a plane and smell like an open latrine.

Ms. Jo, that sounds horrible. I'm guessing not much sleep?

Years ago I was on a flight from Atlanta to Frankfurt and a couple of rotund men were joking with each other, saying, "du stinkst!" or something like that. I wondered what the problem was with a shower? Is it some sort of cultural thing? Anyway, they thought it was hilarious. Just my two cents but I believe bathing before being in close confines with others is a courtesy.

A lady in a cash register line screamed at us soon after we moved to LA from Paris. She yelled at us to back up, that we were too close. 😬 We were used to Monoprix and had crossed her line. That's when I realized the difference in space and what a luxury it was.

Ms. Jo, just awful. Ugh. That is why, when possible, we pay extra for the two seat only row.

Boarding a small regional jet for a 55 minute flight from Durango, Colorado to Denver many years ago, I could not find my seat - 12B. I asked the flight attendant and she pointed to the last row against the rear of the plane and said “Apparently, it is between those two gentleman.” Two LARGE men traveling home from a business trip who were so large their thighs touched each others on MY seat.

I was initially pissed but everyone one started laughing and making the best out of a bad situation. The two guys were really nice and bought me a couple of beers to get me through the ordeal. Had it been a longer flight, it would have been a problem no matter how much free alcohol I was supplied with,

Diane, that's amazing. The uniformed men literally shoving people inside. Wow.

My first regular public transportation was riding the Cambus that drove students through the campus at the University of Iowa back in the ‘70’s. Our maximum number of students in the bus was quite hilarious, especially if it was heading back to the dorms for lunch or at the end of the day. My most recent similar experience was the city bus from the Verona train station to the arena where I was able to squish into a tiny spot in the packed bus and still have the door close.

On the plane, I’ve also experienced someone extending sideways into my seat and also people with their knees pressed into the back of my seat (I don’t recline) and even one time the toes of his shoes pressed into my ankles. The last one I remedied.

If I see a subway car and it's packed full, I'll wait and hope the next one is better. Sometimes that has backfired - a few times in London we've waited thru 3 cars passing thru before we could get on - even worse if trying to do it with luggage. Eventually we just take a deep breath and force ourselves on. And how many times have people all been jammed at the doors and if you look down the car, there is lots of space in the middle - people don't squish down - I understand if you're getting off at the next stop, but let other people move down the car!

This reminds me of our visit to the Eiffel Tower - as we were coming down - in line for the elevator, this woman was fully pressed up against me from shoulder to knee - and it wasn't even crowded - I'd move a step ahead and she'd be right on me. Maybe she was trying to pickpocket me? After a few minutes of this I finally stepped aside and gestured for her to go ahead - she looked like she didn't understand why I was doing it.

There are times when you have to tolerate it - like on a jammed subway - but this lady...ughhhh

I moved to NYC right after college. After 7 years, I realized it was time to leave when I let more and more subway trains go past in the mornings. Couldn't force myself to squeeze into the overcrowded cars any more..and then often be squeezed inappropriately by men in suits. Most of the time, I just let it go. But there was that time when one man kept moving his knee further between my knees inch by inch. Once I was very sure it was not by accident, I half stood, shifted my foot, and stomped on his foot while loudly explaining to the car why. He moved on down the car, but I had not been brave enough to make eye contact. I am not so young and scared anymore...

When I was in my 20s and 30s, none of that bothered me too much. I learned to cope. But once I was in my mid 40s, I developed claustrophobia and since then, it's only gotten worse. Interestingly, my older sister suffered from it, and for the longest time, I honestly thought she was making it all up. Well, now I know better. And for the record, it sucks. Crowded events are a no-go. Crowded buses and subways are no longer part of my itineraries. Long flights are hell. Hotel rooms must have windows that actually open. Every trip we plan now requires an additional layer of research. On the bright side: once we find a place we like, we often return (especially when the host understands my peculiarities and shows a little extra kindness).

Here's a tip for those who have had to deal with stinky seat mates on crowded planes: travel with oranges!

We always take easy to peel, juicy mandarines on long flights; they're so refreshing and the extra vitamin C never hurts. But most importantly, after you've peeled them, squeeze the peels to release the citrus oil. Viola! Instant air freshener!

I even keep a piece of peel in my pocket for the inevitable trip to the airplane bathroom. Honestly, it saves the day.

Carolyn, nice tip worth trying. I reminisce with Mary about the pungent odors on public transportation during the summer in Heidelberg. You never quite get used to it, but after awhile it's like part of the scenery. It was a cultural awakening.

I've never tried it, but can you take fruit with you on overseas flights?

I suppose we all have had our personal space disaster stories.

I always book an aisle seat, which means that I will only have one side to worry about. My wife like the window seat, so we are rarely seated together, unless on a 767 which has two seats between the windows and aisles.

My worst flight with cramped conditions and adjoining passengers was from Rome to Cairo flight in 1983, I was in a middle seat and had two guys on either side of me that could have been NCL linebackers. They weren't overweight, but they were huge. I am no small person, I was 6' 2" and about 200 lbs. What saved us, was one of the guys was so big (the one that had the aisle seat) that he could not sit without pushing his knees up and onto the seat in front of him. A flight attendant had mercy on us and moved him to a seat in the far rear of the aircraft. Since he was moved, I moved over to the aisle seat and all was well.

I like to get up and move around while on long flights about once an hour to stretch my legs, etc.

As for public transportation, I worry more about pickpockets than anything, especially in countries like Spain, Italy and France. The tightest public transport ever was in Tokyo.

Nicole, good question. If there is an issue maybe dried fruits sealed in a bag?

geovagriffith, I'm the same way with the aisle seat. I like to get up once an hour; plus, nobody on the other side of you. The middle seat person is unfortunate, really.

Love the orange peel tip!
I take a bag of carrots and grapes on overseas flights to snack on, so I don't have to rely on airline salty snacks.
I always finish them before we land, so no customs worries.
I also have unsalted nuts and raisins with me too.

Four of us went for lunch at the McDonalds on Tinamon square (so?) in Beijing 1998. I took everyone’s order and yuans and joined the crowd pushing towards the cashiers to get lunch. There was no such thing as a queue or lines of any sort in China at that time. A young lady came to me to help me change my order to Chinese. I thought I was close enough to people in the masses when a woman push in front of me in a 6” space. I found out to ever reach the cashier you had to gently push the person in front of you with your whole body so there was no personal space with millions of people competing for limited resources and time. The only place we saw an orderly line was at the state run historic sites.

For those asking if we're allowed to travel with fruit on overseas flights ... the answer is yes, so long as you consume all of it prior to landing. Please don't try to smuggle any past customs, it's against the law (to protect agricultural crops from invasive pests and diseases). On long haul flights, we always take three to four small mandarines per person. If we can't eat them all, we offer to share them with the flight attendants or those sitting around us - I've never had anyone turn down our offer yet.