Paris Authorities Launch Three-Day Raid against AirBnB-type rentals in the Marais

I just booked an airbnb in Paris for Sept, but opted for a private room as opposed to an apartment - I had been looking at an apartment (with an amazing balcony off the bedroom with a view of the Eiffel Tower), but after all the rumblings about apartment rentals being cracked down on, I thought it more prudent to go with a private room (we have rented apartments in Italy). I know a lot of people pick on airbnb, but aren't sites like cross-pollinate and home away the same kind of idea?

Thanks for the heads up Kim!

Egads! We rented an apartment for a month this summer in a Paris suburb (AirBnB). I am not worried (YET) but what do you all suppose this may mean for the future of such rental sites?

There have been a few of us on here warning of this in the wings for some time but we tend to be overwhelmed by all the people enjoying the experience regardless of its legality.

Similar short lets are illegal in London too but lots of people still go to airbnb there too. One day they will find their money and flat gone...

Similar to Uber which also sails pretty close to the wind. And about Uber, I find it interesting that Uber spent so much effort getting drivers on board promising them the world and they are doing what they can to remove drivers and use driverless cars. Oh well, there's a bit more of the overhead gone then.

"There have been a few of us on here warning of this in the wings for some time but we tend to be overwhelmed by all the people enjoying the experience regardless of its legality."

I really feel that there has been fairly balanced discussion of the subject on this Forum-unlike some other travel forums-with the gist being that you need to be very careful and that there are definite risks involved. Having said that, I do not feel it is the responsibility of a potential renter to confirm the legality of the let; they may wish to, but if a law is being broken it is by the owner not the renter. This is an evolving situation and the city of Paris will catch up to the curve over the next few years and the rental landscape will have been transformed.

I contacted AirBnB after my initial reply to this post and got a very encouraging reply within an hour. Included in his reply was this statement:
"Ultimately, we encourage hosts to investigate all of the laws and regulations that could affect the standing of their listing, and request that they make sure they are operating within the confines of the law." He also included some other facts and most helpful to me, was his emphasis on their policies that protect me as a traveler and the lengths they will go to before and during my stay to make it as safe as possible with limited drama.
This "crack-down" is certainly not an "I told you so" moment for people who have warned about such sites. And while I always praise AirBnB (and still will), I have also mentioned that my high rating of them stems from what they have done in response to my concerns (like the email today).

I've seen a few articles over the last few months on the subject of Air BnB and similar services, and it seems that the hotel industry has been putting some pressure on authorities to clamp down on this sort of thing. A similar situation is Taxi operators lobbying to keep Uber off their turf. Here's one article on the subject.....

http://www.tnooz.com/article/american-hotel-association-launches-fightback-airbnb-short-term-rentals/

Personally, I would be highly skeptical of anything AirBnB says. Illegal rentals are constantly listed with them for NYC. Most AirBnb rentals in NYC are illegal. You can't rent an apartment for less than 30 days unless you are in a building specifically designed for it. There are nuances, but for the most part they are illegal. You can rent a room if your condo, coop, building rules allow and you are still in the apartment. So, single rooms are allowed. But the reality is that most NYC apartment dwellers don't have spare rooms! Rather they are creating extra rooms out of breakfast nooks. :)

And there are good reason besides the hotel lobby for this. If you lived in an apartment building in NYC how safe would you feel if strangers were constantly coming and going at all hours? I spotted some in the last building I was in. If it happened more frequently I would have brought it to my landlady's attention. This also eats into affordable housing which is one of the big issues in NYC. You can make pots of money renting out apartments by the week.

So, I am not at all surprised to hear about this happening in Paris and in London. I am sure that they face similar issues that we have here in NYC.

Pam

The legislation relating to prohibiting short term lets completely in parts of London was amended by the Deregulation Act 2015 - it now only applies if the property is let in general for more than 90 days in a year.

Well perhaps that is where they have found a loophole. Encouraging ones to research all laws relating to renting and enforcing that are two different things. I can only comment on my experiences with AirBnB and they have been all positive, and that must be the case with many since it is such a popular site. Of course, I would hate to be in the minority...

So now are we obligated to ask "How many bedrooms? Where is the nearest grocery? Are you legally allowed to rent?" Serious question.

It should be noted that AirBnB is one of the prime hunting grounds for the mayors task force, along with other sites like VRBO. So, it is certainly indirectly aimed at them. The chief of Air met with the mayor and her people several weeks ago and made promises to cooperate and help, saying "We want to make sure that hosts do comply with local laws and regulations. So whatever we can do to cooperate we would like to do that,”. We shall see.

Also from the France 24 article: Paris is the No. 1 destination for Airbnb users, with a total of 1.8 million visits since its creation in 2008, and the site now counts more than 40,000 Parisian homes to its network. Five years ago, just 50 Parisian homes were registered with Airbnb.

Article and video report:

http://www.france24.com/en/20150226-paris-airbnb-cooperate-home-rental-hotels-chesky-france

Monique---when Airbnb says they "encourage" hosts to ensure theybarenin compliance with local laws, that means they (Airbnb) take absolutely no responsibility for investigating or confirming the legality of their listings. The fact that they have so many listings in places where Short-term lets are NOT legal ( like the New York example given by Pam is pretty unsettling. And the individual consumer ( you or me) would hardly know where to begin in researching the question under local laws. So we are at the mercy of the host's honesty and due diligence.

The good news is that if the rental gets cancelled, Airbnb will make the renter whole. This actually happened to my sister, with a "whole house" rental in California. The owner was violating a local ordinance and got a "cease and desist" letter from the city attorney. Airbnb promptly refunded the money paid and provided a small bonus (inncredit) to be applied to another rental. But of course the other Airbnb listings Innthe same city could be at risk--they just hadn't been caught yet. It is interesting that Airbnb did not take down the other short-stay rentals in that town, even knowing there was a crackdown going on.

Thanks to both Kent and Pam for your good explanations. I contacted the owner of the rental and she was completely unaware of the sitution. I sent her a link to the article, and she assured me that she would not be affected and our rental is safe.

I read that somewhere in Cali there is an AirBnB "ban" although it doesn't apply to anyone who has already made a reservation. The email I received from AirBnB stated, as Pem mentioned, that in case something should happen to the rental out of my control, they would even put me up in a hotel room. I would rather not go through that, but I'd would also rather not be homeless in Paris :)

Kent, you had said, in your post just before mine, words to the effect of the Paris mayors task force is not directed against AirBnB

So I said: "It should be noted that AirBnB is one of the prime hunting grounds for the mayors task force...it is certainly indirectly aimed at them"

If you, then, go in and edit your post to eliminate your reference to AirBnB, it takes context away and my post becomes illogical, or at the least, not as relevant. Can we please agree that it is better to simply re-post and explain instead of removing key words of an existing post that has already been replied to, in the interest of context and keeping it readable?

EDIT: And I would add-which version of your post is Monique responding to now, the one with the AirBnB reference or the one without?

3 months ago I was looking for an apartment rental in Paris for a 12-day stay, which I just finished. And right when I was thinking of renting an apartment, the Paris Mayor's office, well she got interested in the illegal rental apartments issue, and I decided, even though I was staying for 12 days in Paris (trip just recently concluded), I decided I'm going to do a hotel this time, 2 hotels actually. I did that and it worked out great, I like to eat out and didn't spend much time in the hotel and wouldn't have in the apartment (wouldn't make sense being in Paris but spending much time in the apartment?).

But back 3 months ago some of us here were trying to alert people who were looking for apartment rentals in the Marais, that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, considering what was going on from the Paris Mayor's office. But it didn't attract much attention here back then.

And now here it comes up again. So I thought it was worth a little effort to alert newbies looking for apartment rentals in Paris that maybe they should be aware of what's going on in Paris regarding apartment rentals.
And for those that have pending rentals: do you still have a place to sleep in Paris?

Monique I do not believe the owner was completely unaware. It has been big news in Paris for quite some time now. I would be uncomfortable with her complete denial.

Keep in mind, if you rent from some middlemen like airb@b or vrbo , and unitnis closed down, there may be some provison for a refund. However that will not help much if you find out a week or two before trip, since it may be difficult to find a hotel room that can take you at the budget you have counted on, this is especially true for fa!lies or groups of friends. Triple and quad rooms are much harder to find last minute.

@Dave - I apologize, as I did not thank you or Sasha for your comments also. I cannot remember what exactly Kent's post said, but I do know I came away with thinking that yes, AirBnB properties are under investigation. I may have ignored his "not" seeing as the whole point of this thread is how AirBnB is under scrutiny.

@Pat - I had no clue about this until I read this post, and it's possible living in the Parisian suburbs that she isn't aware. It may be good that she doesn't know, as if she is unaware, it may be an indication that this doesn't apply to her. People at times only pay attention when they know they are "next". Regardless, I really have no choice but to take her word. Calling her out on her so-called ignorance would not be a good move. Constantly thinking of the what ifs is not good. All I can do is try to find a couple back-up options, but otherwise, it's completely out of my hands. Kent's point was stated a few times: will I have a room? I inquired, she said yes. What else can I do?

P.S. - my stay is for 35 nights. This whole short-term thing may not even apply to me.

Monique,, you are staying in the suburbs??????? Do you mind telling me the postal code, does it start with 750?

Sure, it's 92700. Colombes.

Just a note of clarification. It seems an odd distinction to me, but apparently this is the law:

A [Parisian apartment owner] can rent out his/her primary residence completely legally. It's secondary residences that are not allowed to be rented out on these short-term bases. If an owner of a secondary residence wants to rent out his/her apartment, they have to apply for a certain permit that allows them to do so.

I find that very interesting!

For now, I think AirBnB has a strong self-interest on issuing prompt refunds for anyone left without a room due to such crackdowns. They don't need bad publicity that would threaten their business model.

This being said, more than the tax issue there is the question of many areas of highly-sought cities losing their permanent population, made up mostly of renters (but not poor low-educated/low-income renters with little clout as it is more common in American inner cities), as hundreds and thousands of properties become holiday flats rented to tourists (which is almost always a more profitable proposition than a long-term residential rental for the owner).

I don't have a definitive opinion, I think ultimately only home ownership is a viable proposition for adults/families and I think renters sometimes are overprotected by laws passed in cities/areas where they are the majority, stripping owners of their rights. I'm against renting-for-life as well. Irrespective of that, having many properties devoted to hosting tourists has an obvious effect of reducing the permanent population, and making the area more expensive in general.

Finally, I think there is a niche for hotels that would offer less services for lower prices in properties with self-catering facilities.

So Monique.. you are not actually in Paris.. which would explain low rent.. but you have calculated in the extra cost of commuting in and out of city every day .. right?

Kim the distinction is that a Parisien can rent out their primary residence legally for ONLY four months of the year.. this is a throw back I think to when locals would summer out of city.. my own relatives who live in the 8th have a "summer house" and are rarely in Paris from May to September.. ( however they do not rent their place out during that time) .

I think Kim has something there!! I woke up to this message from the owner of the apartment I reserved:
"...As a reminder, if a Parisian owner can rent(praise) legally his main home in his absence, he does not also go away for second homes ! My appartment is my main home and i rent it because i will be on holyday....so no troubles. Do not be worry absolotly ! ..."
So my question to her didn't compute but after she read the article herself, she got what I was asking. So if you have 2 homes, and rent the second one at a crazy rate (which you can do in Paris) on a weekly basis and NOT pay the proper taxes, you could make out like a bandit! And a lot of this does lead to lack of housing for locals. And shops can keep prices high to cater to tourists who will pay whatever. It's all making sense now.

Oh yes.. and it is legal for a local to rent a room out in his residence at any time.. as in you share the place with them , but for many tourists they want a place to themselves.

@Pat - I was typing my reply when you must have posted yours! Yes, thank you, we are in Zone 3 and will get a Navigo pass accordingly. Although we are in zone 3, the location is great as it is only a 12 minute or so ride on the J line to Paris St Lazarre station. Considering the price (we are 5 persons and have a 2BR flat) compared to flats in the center, that 12-minute ride is worth every minute!

Just to add a little more info by way of an example...
Santa Monica, a great little beach town here in southern California, passed a law this last week regarding short term airbnb-type rentals.
Anyone who rents out their place now has to be present in the unit with their guests while their guests are staying there. No more short term "whole place" rentals are allowed. To be fair, they are allowing a grace period over the summer and early fall so that visitors are not left out in the cold without a place to stay but, after that, the law will be enforced. They have already hired a 3-person, full-time crew to use the photos and info on airbnb to hunt down these rentals and monitor them for compliance.
This is one strategy that is being used here in the area and lots of other cities around here are following suit...I'm sure there are similar things being done in cities all over the world.

In Santa Monica and other beach towns there would probably be a conflict between vacationers who want to party and residents who have to get up for work the next morning.

Back in the 1980s we had personal experience lending my in-laws' little Paris studio to older friends of my parents from the States. Though they lived in an apartment in the States, they inadvertently caused problems by wearing shoes in the apt. (French change to slippers immediately) and running water late at night, things the locals didn't do. My MIL got the complaints from the neighbors.

Generally people who live in owner occupied neighborhoods don't like to see any kind of rental, and residents of any building don't like to se turnover and instability.

Re the last 2 posts by Bets and Anita: Yes, this is (apparently) what's going on with the Paris crackdown, and also that the owners are avoiding taxes.
The main issue for forum members here is: if you've arranged to rent an apartment in the Marais, after the last few days, do you still have a place to sleep in Paris, and if not, how do you get your deposit back.

Plus, if you are thinking about renting an apartment in Paris in the future--do you want to deal with this uncertainty, or choose the certainty of a hotel?

"The main issue for forum members here is: if you've arranged to rent an apartment in the Marais, after the last few days, do you still have a place to sleep in Paris, and if not, how do you get your deposit back."

IMHO, statistically it's unlikely individual readers here who have contracts to rent would be affected. I would not suggest contacting landlords to "see if you still have a place to sleep" and stirring the pot. A frantic call could make a landlord think twice about the renter. The only thing I would do is reconfirm the reservation, as anyone would do with any reservation. If someone does lose an apartment, there's booking.com and the Ibis. People are intelligent and can figure out how to get their deposits back in the unlikely event their apartment is one of the few being controlled. It's not the end of the world and people don't need to be alarmed.
People have enough to think about before a trip without adding needless worries.

Are apartment rentals going to replace pickpockets and scams this year in terms of panic posts?

@Kent hotels are not as "certain" as they used to be either. But agreed: the point is, does one have a place to stay and does one want to risk it?

@Bets I don't think contacting the owner to say "hey I heard whats going on in Paris with AirBnB. Is my reservation ok?" is stirring the pot. Now to push the issue, asking for deep details and paperwork and copies of permits and what not would cause tension. Again, my stay is lengthy, so not being concerned and just thinking I can hop on booking.com to find a place for 5 persons for 35 nights doesn't quite work, as it wouldn't for many people. Knowing where you will sleep especially in an expensive city like Paris is not a "needless worry". There can a balance between paranoia and being all willy-nilly (technical term).

There was an interesting discussion on the Destination Experts Forum on TripAdvisor. And Paris, New York, and London or not the only places questioning AirBnB and trying to come up with ways to regulate the practice. In addition to safety, sanitary and health issues and the issues that local residents face, there is the issue of taxes! Every city has an occupancy tax that hotels include in any rate that you get from them. Evidently, this can be a bit iffy with AirBnB and VRBO and similar options. AirBnB does collect in some cities, Other places where there are issues include Singapore, Tasmania, Florida, Austria, and Hawaii.

Pam

Whatever you choose to do about it, the notion that they are just hunting in Le Marais is pure fantasy. Sure, that area is the poster child for the "tourists are taking all the affordable housing" lobby, but this is focused on all of central Paris, in particular Le Marais, Saint-Germain and Montmartre, but also outside of central Paris. It's hard to say what's right as far as confirming with/questioning an owner, etc.

Owners are avoiding re-classification as commercial properties.

I have a family member who rents out an AirBnB unit in Los Angeles, in a semi trendy area. They are fully compliant with the city, paying all TOT, permit secured, and they declare all income on their taxes. With about 20k invested in fix up, fees, etc, they have broken even and are making money. More than 100 reviews and an average of five-stars. It's not that it can't be done, you just have to do it. Paris is evolving and will be for the next few years. This does not need to be about fear, just the facts is fine, without the drama, thank you very much.

Sounds like AirBnB and the like need to make some sort of due diligence to ensure that their products are legal. Getting one's money credited back to a credit card two days after one finds himself standing on the street with no room he can afford doesn't seem to be very satisfying to me.

So far this week the forum has provided great advice on traveling with out legal documentation, overstaying visas and illegal accommodations. Excellent!!

Sounds like AirBnB and the like need to make some sort of due diligence to ensure that their products are legal.

It also wouldn't hurt for them to send out an email to prospective renters letting them know the situation and what their options are. I am #TeamAirBnB and am happy with my experiences with them, but just thinking of the potential panic this is causing, it wouldn't hurt for them to be a little more proactive. Some people may be canceling reservations out of fear, while the others who may actually NEED to figure out a Plan B aren't even aware.

Monique what do you mean " hotels are not as certain as they used to be" ??

Not that this has anything to do with Paris, but it might help those who consider AirBnB in ANY location to do a little homework, to make sure the person renting to you is the actual owner.

We have a handful of rental properties. Article in local paper said Metro Nashville government had sent letters to property owners who are renting properties thru AirBnB to collect the 10% hotel tax (for which there is local discussion would then go to developing more affordable housing for those in need, etc......good plan!)

So, being a landlord, I randomly put in the address of each of our rental properties into Google with Airbnb as part of the search. SHOCK when one of our properties came up. Our leases clearly DO NOT allow subletting. All our tenants know that (and you better believe everyone was reminded again).

Tenant had to immediately remove the listing and cancel any Airbnb commitments (we were told there were none).

I'm not a 'big bad wolf.' There are tax issues (for which we, as the property owner, would have been responsible), and there are HUGE liability issues, and huge insurance coverage issues (our properties are insured as single-family residential). We do very careful background checks on all tenants, to protect not only our property, but to protect neighboring tenants. There is risk to having the 'stranger of the night' who has not gone thru the detailed screenings.

So, unless you confirm your host is the owner of the property, you could face a last-minute cancellation for some other reason than a local government crackdown. It could be a landlord crackdown. There are times one cannot find a hotel room in Nashville. There are times one cannot find a hotel room in many popular tourist spots.

Good point Margaret..

We had a similar scam here where I live.. not short term rental.. but same idea.. someone renting a place they did not even own..

They were renters.. they rented it out.. showed the home etc.. and took first months rent.. and damage deposit..

When folks arrived on moving in day.. surprise.. the "owners" were not there and another family was moving in.. and had a signed lease with another owners name on it.. a few phone calls showed they were in fact not the rightful tenants and the other folks were ... previous tenants posed as owners , rented suite and took the money and ran..

I've always wondered how many might be renters renting out a room or their place when they're gone. Thanks for sharing your experience Margaret!

I also think most people considering a "whole-place" rental would not be part of the group considering renting a room of someone actually living there.

I'd feel extremely awkward and out of place in somebody's house while paying to use one room. Too much forced intimacy, too much personal contact, too little privacy. Not for me. But some people certainly will say that this is an awesome style to travel.

@Pat It used to be that you reserved a hotel, you showed up and got what you reserved. No questions asked. No issues. But now-a-days, that just isn't the case. Mistakes in reservations, overbooking, etc... You can't take cigarette smoke but you end up with a smoking room because your non-smoking room request went missing. You end up going to the annex building around the corner and down the street because the room you requested isn't available. Your ensuite bathroom is now a room with a key to the communal bath down the hall. I just had an issue actually. I booked a room through HostelBookers (at a hotel in Sorrento for July that has dorm style rooms on the lower level). I paid the deposit and received confirmation. I had a question about their shuttle service and contacted the hotel directly. They had no record of my reservation. I had to forward the email from HostelBookers. Come to find out there was an error and HostelBookers hadn't communicated my reservation. Had I not contacted them (I always confirm a week before anyway), I would have showed up with no room.

So my point was that booking a hotel is not a 100% stress-free guarantee either. Maybe not as risky, but not 100%, especially when using a 3rd party.

@Margaret how could one find out if the owner of the property is the "real" owner? When I use AirBnB I like to try to find the property on other sites. I have one reserved for Rome and I did my research beforehand and found he has a whole company. In fact, when you GoogleMap the location, his business shows up at the address. That made me feel better.
Regardless of potential crackdowns, you have to research and think when dealing with these things. If you google AirBnB scams, there is a site that has complaints to the BBB or some place like that, and in each case people were scammed in a way that could have been prevented (ie - don't wire money to some random account). So Kent's question (I love how he repeated it like 4 times) is important whether the authorities are involved or not. Without being paranoid, do your research.

Monique ..you site one mistake .. and think that's the norm now?? I am sorry.. mistakes happen everyday in any field.. but I disagree hotels can't be counted on,, in reality 99% of time they can be ( but its my policy to book directly most times.. not through third parties like more people are doing) .

We have to be careful when making a declaration of what we may believe is the norm now based on an isolated incident that happened to us..

Monique,
I have travelled in Europe, Asia and the Middle and Far East over the past 25 or 30 years and have never, not once, encountered the hotel problems you cite. What rotten luck if you have. We have had apartments in Paris a few times and it was fun, the best being the one belonging to a rich friend. It was huge and luxurious and a maid came in every day, but it was a generous loan. We could never have afforded such a place. I prefer the small two star hotels we have found over the years, with a nice person at the front desk, a housekeeper who makes our beds and cleans the bathroom and someone to book a cab for us on the day of departure. Our hotels are usually in the 2 digit arrondissements and so are very affordable. Plus we never have to buy toilet paper.

Monique,
For Nashville, one can consult the Metro Property Utility (on-line search by address, owner, or parcel) to see who owns a place. Most larger cities have something like that, but not all cities do. Often you can just enter an address into Google and find a property owner (or see the last real estate transaction). That same search might help you to see if others have had problems with that address.

A simple inquiry of: Do you own the place? is a good start. And, if the answer is no: Is the owner aware/and has the owner approved your leasing thru __(whatever service)_?

While Airbnb is popular and growing, I personally do not have the comfort level to lease a room (or an entire place) thru them (yet). Reason: There is a wide range of 'professionalism' among those who participate. Some are first-timers or near first-timers, some are likely total class-acts.......but who knows? I like to know that I am staying in a 'tested' place....one that I can easily check on TripAdvisor and one at which there will likely be no 'issues.' And, if issues arise, there will be a professional at the front desk to deal with them. I don't have to worry about some landlord being surprised I'm there, etc. While Airbnb provides guidelines to those who offer and those who buy, there is not a deep due diligence done. It appears to be more of a set-price EBay-type offers/reviews type arrangement, as I view it, with Airbnb handling the $ transaction (as PayPal would for EBay).

But, others may have a wider comfort level than I do, and others may have a higher risk tolerance than I do. Nothing wrong with that. We are all unique and different, and that's what makes the world go round. There are many happy reviews on Airbnb, and some people like the uniqueness and friendliness (as they view it) of staying in someone's house, apartment, etc. Some people like having a local 'host' to show them the town, etc.

I also do not book hotels thru third party entities. I generally find better prices dealing directly, and I then reconfirm prior to the trip. And, dealing directly seems to result in frequent room upgrades, too, or a comp breakfast, etc.

.........but, again, whatever works for you and for your individual situation.

The conversation has continued on other forums. Taxes, insurance coverage, liability and community norms and expectations continue to be part of the debate as well as problems with noise, trash and other just the lack of control over who is on the property.

What probably needs to happen is that these options need to be licensed with a license displayed in the building and available online for all to see. The license would say that property, pays taxes, is properly insured, has necessary safety features, meets all local law regulations including condominium, home owner association and coop rules and regs. As a consumer, you really shouldn't have to be researching whether or not you the consumer has to pay an occupancy tax to the local municipality! And, do you really want to make sure that your insurance will cover any damage claims let alone.

It's a wonderful online option that has great potential, but it needs regulation.

Pam

@Norma I have likewise traveled all over Europe. Please don't let my low number of posts trick you :) I have spent a total of over a year in the past 5 years, so my statement isn't out of this one incident, or even from just my experience. Maybe I am "unlucky" but...

@Pat ...regardless my point was that hotels are not 100% reliable, and if you "disagree" but then say that hotels are 99% reliable, you still make my point - 99.999999999% is NOT 100%. Kent's statement may lead one to believe that if you go the hotel route, it is a gaurantee, which it isn't. I didn't say this happens ALL the time. I didn't say it was the norm. But it happens enough that you simply can't say that hotels are completely infallible. We likewise need to be careful about making declarations in the other direction or implying that others are when all I was saying was there are some random exceptions. And there are.

Kim, you're about to hit 50 posts.
Few posts hit 50 on this site--must be some interest here on this one.

Oh darn, does this mean we're going to have to pay for hotels in Paris?

@Kent I don't get it

If someone doesn't want to rent an apartment in Paris, they will have to pay for a hotel.

@Kent awwwww I admit if it wasn't for the apartment option, I couldn't afford to visit. Hotels prices plus cost of eating out all the time... Unless I slept on the street. Which may happen anyway :)

I understand, no one ever said visiting Europe from N. America is affordable for 99% of us.
But we still keep doing it.
But the Mayor of Paris wants her taxes.

Apartment rentals aren't that pricey (well, some can be, but not the ones I look at). I had one in my Top 5 airbnb for Paris this Sept that was quite nice and had a lovely view of the ET from the balcony off the bedroom - it would have been about $275 Canadian for 3 nights with all fees in. I saw some really gorgeous apts that were in the $125 (Canadian) a night. I think that's way less than a 3 star hotel (I don't know, I've never stayed at a 3 star - well, I stayed at the Sofitel at Gatwick for convenience sake as we had a late arriving flight - like, midnight, but I really had to think 5 times before pressing that reserve button...lol).

Our apt in Rome which was steps from the Colosseum, slept 3 (or 4, but there were 3 of us) was $150 a night, including fees and whatnot...which is higher than I usually go, but I needed a spot for my mom and had to go a little more $$. I looked at hotels in that area, and other than dives, the hotels were quite pricey...and we got the benefit of a kitchen and a separate bedroom, a living room and a dining area...and I cooked supper two nights out of 5, not to mention being able to buy snacks and preparing breakfast...

So, Kim, with it having been a three day push and this is now 5 days later, is the heat off? Or is it likely that there will be some more permanent changes in Paris?

I am constantly reading about "all the space" in an apartment.. well ... hmmm .. I cannot afford to rent those one bedroom apartments.. so far in Paris we have only been able to afford STUDIO apartments.. so they are not bigger then any hotel room I have stayed in.. with exception of having kitchenettes( I say kitchenette because usually they are very small.. no full ovens etc )

I can and do find hotels in Paris for 90-100 euros all the time.. and hotels for summer visits have added luxury of air conditioning.. and that is an expensive luxury to look for in apartments ( but I have found it.. but at 850 euros per week)

I know one can find hotel rooms cheaper then 90 euros a night .. but I do have preferred areas.. so I do make some pricier choices then I might if I was strictly into budget watching.

I rarely stay in 3 star hotels.. I have on occasion if I am sharing costs with friends, or have found an amazing deal, ,, but generally I don't see the value.. as I said.. I can find clean, central, and ac in a two star.. I can deal with small rooms, and no fancy soaps in bathroom.

Well, here's what the press reports that they did during their sweep:

Visited 1,868 apartments in 98 buildings and found 101 infractions.

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/immobilier/location/20150525.OBS9528/lutte-contre-les-meubles-illegaux-a-paris-pres-de-2-000-logements-controles.html

This article mentions something new I hadn't heard about: that since the beginning of the year, every owner who wants to rent out a property weekly must "enter" a new equivalent-sized long-term rental onto the rental market in the same arrondissement (i.e. by transforming an office into an apartment, etc etc.). I can't imagine this is very easy with zoning regulations etc., and this does not mention the distinction that the earlier article had between people who own and live in their apartment as their primary residence, and those who are renting out their secondary residences (the ones that under the law are not supposed to be let short-term to tourists).

The deputy mayor in charge of housing (who hails from the Communist party!! gulp) said that the city authorities have done 400-500 checks a year, with 900 dossiers underway. In 2014 , 20 judgments were rendered (representing 56 apartments, I guess some owners had more than one n the pool) for total fines of 560,000 euros (one sole owner had to pay 100k). According to another report in Les Echos, 500 owners "regularized" their situation in 2014 (i.e. got on the right side of the law). In the video accompanying the article, Brossat says they're targeting owners who specifically buy apartments to rent them out short-term to foreigners. The lack of housing in Paris for residents is too big a problem, he says, to allow these people to take so many units out of the long-term housing pool without the approval of the authorities.

http://www.lesechos.fr/journal20150521/lec2_entreprise_et_marches/02177640195-paris-premiere-ville-dairbnb-hausse-le-ton-contre-les-meubles-touristiques-1121336.php

Obviously this is mostly a media grab by the town hall - they can never get to all the properties concerned. But they are trying to scare owners a bit!!

"..with it having been a three day push and this is now 5 days later, is the heat off?"

I think that this is early days for this program. By all accounts this is what the law will be and they've dedicated lots of resources to accomplish the goal. The three day sweep may be over but the heat is definitely not off.

Very interesting to see the results of the Paris "raid". Someone in a large town (40,000) in California blamed all of NYC AirBnB troubles on an a city that doesn't bother to regulate. She was in city administration and knew it could be done, so there! She didn't even consider the issue of 40,000 residents vs 8,000,000 not to mention the 55,000,000 that visit NYC every year! (Yes, I checked the stats and I bet Paris is not too far behind.) So, it will take time for these big cities to cope with this, when they have so many other things on their plates.

Thanks again Kim for posting this. It is most interesting.

Pam

Yes Kent, renting an apartment in Paris can be quite a bit cheaper than a hotel. It all depends on what you're willing to give up. I spent a month in Paris in 2012 and could never have afforded it in hotels and since I was there so long I definitely wanted to do most meals at 'home'. I found a wonderful studio in the Marais (yes, it was legal) for €50/night. It didn't have AC and it was a 5th floor walk-up but it was a beautiful place, quite a bit larger than a hotel room, nice kitchen (everything except a full size oven which I never would have used anyway), bathroom shower to die for, washer/dryer, TV with cable, free phone calls, and a very friendly and helpful owner. I know he rented it for €75/night for shorter terms but that's still a good deal.

If you must have elevator, AC, concierge to help you, and don't plan on any in-home meals then a hotel is what you should do.

nancy.. I find your comment about " a concierge to help you " a bit insincere...

Most hotels in the budget to moderate range do not have concierges( I personally have never seen on in any 2 star hotel.. and most three stars .. you are lucky to have a day desk clerk,, that MAY speak English passably.. forget the night clerks.. ) .. it seems to imply that those that stay in hotels need a bit more help then wonderful adventurous apartment renters.. and I have done both and will continue to..

However.. I do commend you for being happy with a 5th floor walk up.. I would not be as I would find that exhausting at end of the day .. especially if carrying groceries up.. but I suppose that is just because I am not as fit as you are..

Four Seasons and the Kempinsky and for that matter Sofitel have always been, and continue to be, what they use to be. Everything I expected and generally more. I will admit, while I have traveled more than my limited number of posts may indicate that I have never been the victim of pick pockets in Barcelona; this despite the fact that Barcelona may have the highest pick pocket rate in Europe. Just the same, I do know of a lovely lady in Budapest who can teach you how to make marvelous meals in one of those tiny European kitchens like those that are so common in the illegal rentals in Paris. After 90 such meals you may have some visa issues so take care and be sure to carry a photo copy of your pass port in your left shoe in the event you get caught (be sure to lock your passport in the safe of the hotel in the previous city so it will remain safe)

Very droll.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my recent response. My use of the term 'concierge' as an example of what you often have in a hotel but not in an apartment (along with elevator and AC, and other things I did not mention) was not meant to be insincere (whatever that means) and certainly not meant to belittle anybody. I know budget hotels don't have concierges, or usually not even a 24 hr front desk. I use budget hotels almost exclusively when not renting apartments. I can't afford any hotel with multiple stars attached to it.

I'm not particularly 'fit', actually quite the opposite, but I can live with walking up some stairs if it saves me some of my limited hard-earned travel money to be used for other things more important to me. If the other residents of that building can do it on a regular basis I certainly can do it for a month. If someone doesn't want to do that, they don't have to. They can choose a hotel or another apartment on a lower floor or with an elevator. I was not advocating that everyone should do what I did. I was simply attempting to show an example of when an apartment, without some of the amenities often found in hotels, can be less expensive than a mid-priced hotel in an expensive city like Paris.

The choice of whether to stay in a hotel or apartment is dependent on many factors which are different for each of us.

I certainly never expected that my comments would elicit such an unpleasant and unwarranted response.

Nancy,
I don't think anyone should have found your post offensive. It was factual. No one should be any more offended by your referencing a concierge than your reference of an elevator or a/c. There are things that come with various levels of hotels that might not be available in basic apartments. Then there are things that come with various levels of apartments that might not be available in basic hotels (or even high-end hotels).

I took your post as: it all depends on what someone is looking for to meet their individual travel needs. I sure was not offended.

You are a helpful poster on this Forum.

DITTO

"Nancy,

I don't think anyone should have found your post offensive. It was factual. No one should be any more offended by your referencing a concierge than your reference of an elevator or a/c. There are things that come with various levels of hotels that might not be available in basic apartments. Then there are things that come with various levels of apartments that might not be available in basic hotels (or even high-end hotels).

I took your post as: it all depends on what someone is looking for to meet their individual travel needs. I sure was not offended.

You are a helpful poster on this Forum."

" a bit insincere" is hardly a tongue lashing Nancy.. lets not over react.

BTW.. isn't there something about not helping posters break the law.. if we are now all being informed that most short term apartment rentals are illegal in Paris.. how can we recommend them except perhaps the Aparthotels.. ?

And Pat started a new thread to address that question here. :)

isn't there something about not helping posters break the law.

I believe that I read that it is the apartment owner who would be breaking the law (and not the renter),

Laura, you're right, the renter would not be breaking the law. I also don't think recommending that someone rent an apartment vs a hotel is helping anyone to break a law. There are plenty of legal apartments to rent so we can't be assuming an apartment rental is illegal. Rather, I think most of us would assume that it's a legal rental unless shown or told otherwise.

Breaking the law is as much a moral issue and a legal issue; at least in my life. So the distinction that the owner is breaking the law and not the person renting the apartment doesn't do much for me.

If Pat's statement is correct, then Rick Steves himself is guilty of violating this policy. I first found out about AirBnB from his suggestions in Travel Tips section (NOT the forum) and it is still there.
Did the article state that any of the renters got fined? Now THAT would certainly change things!!!
If one is completely aware that neither the owner nor the rental are legit, I am not sure why they would pursue renting that property anyway. It surely wouldn't be in their best interest. Doing some research and assuming it's legit, only to find out after it isn't, is no more the renter's fault then buying an item from a flea market only to find out after it was stolen.

And check this out ... on AirBnB's site, a press release was issued earlier this month. A quote:
"Today, we are happy to announce that beginning June 1, 2015, Airbnb will begin collecting and remitting hotel taxes from guests on behalf of hosts statewide in North Carolina and locally in the counties of Buncombe, Durham, Mecklenburg and Wake. This announcement comes after months of work between Airbnb and authorities across North Carolina on how to make it simpler for local residents to follow the rules and pay their fair share."
Interesting...

@Nancy, your comments were spot on. No need to apologize. This entire discussion on apartment vs hotel will end with people doing what they are most comfortable with. I am perfectly ok with walking up 5 flights - ok, that's a lie. I am not ok with it. Never will be. However, with my budget, I have no choice if it's the only thing available! It has nothing to do with being fit (I am NOT) or being adventurous. It has everything to do with finding a happy medium between what I can afford and what I am comfortable with. There are some things even on a budget that I can't deal with (ie - I NEED a washing machine for long term stays that someone else may be ok with. Some people feel they need a/c or need an elevator, for whatever reasons, and if they can afford it, more power to them. To each his own. But as you say, if one has certain needs and/or expectations, which is fine, then sometimes the apartment route is not the way to go.

Friends of mine booked an AirBnB apartment in London on their smartphone in the car while winding up a long trip through the north country and when they finally found the place, it was a flat in a council estate, where the resident just took his pillow and towel and moved in with his neighbor when he had a taker for his room. My friends kept their good humor for that night, and moved on the next day.
The room in an apartment in Marseilles that I AirBnB'd was with a single mom who let her son's room out when he was staying at his dad's, or otherwise off premises. She openly discussed her wish to find a better rental herself -- this place was >100 stairs up in a development already near the top of Canebiere. Until she brought this up, it hadn't occurred to me that I might have checked ahead of time to see if she was allowed to sublet. Besides the stairs and the possible illegality, it was a great find.

And regarding the 99% infallibility of hotels and 3rd party arrangements, the website for a small hotel in Arles redirects you to bookings.com (or some such) when you click on their reservations button, and when I showed up in the late morning, the nasty son of the owner told me there wasn't anything available at that moment but I should come back after 3pm to see if a room magically appears to go along with the printed confirmation I had in my hand. My guess is that either he had oversold for that night or was holding out for a more generous walk-in. I found alternate lodging (thanks to the RS guidebook listings) and returned to tell this guy I had done so -- this was a little later in the day by then -- and he suddenly understood enough English to tell me that I would be charged for the first night. Further nastiness ensued, which was eventually quickly resolved by my credit card agent -- I think this place was already on their radar for these kinds of shenanigans. So -- that's another data point in the hotels-aren't-guaranteed column.