Overwhelmed! Need itinerary trimming tips!

I think you should decide to do either England, France or Italy. Find a base city and do a couple of short xcursions from there. London, Paris, Florence would be my suggestions. I think you will see a lot of wonderful things.

I haven't been to Germany/Switzerland or Spain, and perhaps others will have suggestions about these countries.

It is impossible to have it both ways. Either you go slower and enjoy the sites in some depth or drive by and say, "I saw that !!, I was there !!" Some prefer a fast pace and there is nothing evil in that approach. For us,we have the mind set that, "We will see that the next time." It could be ten years but it helps to reduce the idea that we have to see everything now. The big problem with one night stays is that you will send half you time or more with check in and out, packing/unpacking, finding hotels, find trains, get oriented to new location, etc. etc. And we have done that when that was all the place needed. But a series of one night stays would be very exhausting for us. One option, of course, is to stay in a central location and do day trips. That solves the packing and uppacking problem. Try to arrange your trip for a series of two or three central location. And the final thought, Europe is a big place -- you cannot see everything in six months so why try for two weeks?

Here's what you could do. Make a wish list of places you want to see. Then, looking on a map, try to form an itinerary with a logical flow. Then, post your itinerary, and we'll mercilessly rip it apart. All right, just kidding, we'll be kind, but make practical suggestions.

Destiny- Just a thought... How can you enjoy the diversity if you don't take time to really ENJOY it? With only two and a half weeks, try to select 2 major places (or one REALLY good place) that offer lots of alternatives for day trips. Maybe Oslo Norway, or Inverness Scotland. Perhaps Salzburg or Munich. Then totally immerse yourself in that "diversity".

I'll help with the Germany part.

"Germany - 2 nights in Munich including day trip to Oberammergau. 2 nights in Rothenburg (change to one?), could take Romantic Road bus from Munich Rick suggests. 2 nights in Baden Baden. Ricks "Rhine Blitz" tour by boat to Cochem and Burg Eltz and 1 night stay. Then France."

Since you've never been before, I don't think a week is too much. But let's shoot for 6 nights. Here's what I'd suggest:

Days 1-3:

3 nights might be best. You may be a bit jetlagged on day 1 and not see much. But I would only see Munich if you're interested in the museums there. In many ways it's just another big European city.

If you're looking for "old world" Germany, it would be better to head for Nuremberg. Nuremberg is smaller, more manageable on foot, only 2 hours from MUC by train, and has a small but lovely old town area. From there you could daytrip to Rothenburg and the wonderfully preserved Bamberg very easily, thus spending your first 3 nights in one place and knocking off Rothenburg too.

Days 4-6:

Skip Baden Baden! It's an overpriced resort, big city style - and head for the Rhine/Mosel region for 3 nights. This is no time for a blitz-tour, as this is where a slower, more traditional Germany can still be found easily. Tour the medieval castles of Marksburg and Burg Eltz, check out the cobblestoned, half-timbered towns of Bacharach, Boppard, and Cochem, see Germany's oldest town - Trier - and its Roman roots - and take a river cruise, and try the wine. Boppard or St. Goar make for good bases; Cochem is lovely too.

One night stands are pretty rough, generally, since you never get to really spend a whole day in a place. I went on a three week trip in May, and we had an ambitious itinerary: Koln, Berlin, Paris, Barcelona, Valencia, Milan, Innsbruck, Munich, Rothenberg o.d.T., and Mainz. Flew in/out from Frankfurt. We had three one night stands: in Barcelona, since we took a night train from Paris that got us there at 8 am and we'd been there before; Rothenberg, and Mainz, because they were at the end of the trip and Mainz was just to stay close to the airport for our flight the next day.

To be totally honest, since we spread them out, they really weren't bad at all, and it's nice to be able to stay in a place like Rothenberg for a night rather than try to day-trip it, or to basically crash in Barcelona just so that you don't end up completely wiped. But here's the thing: we had a little "vacation from our vacation" in Valencia, because I have family there, and we flew to Milan, which cut out a whole lot of travel time.

The way we did the itinerary was based a lot on me being the tour guide, since we went to a lot of places I'd been before (Koln, Berlin, Barcelona, Valencia, Innsbruck, Mainz (sort of)). Basically I wanted to share the places I'd been with my travel partner. Then it was, where else? Since I designed the trip as a loop, we basically added in cities on the way - my cotraveler wanted to do Paris, I wanted to do Milan because it seemed less touristy than, say, Florence or Venice and we took a day trip up to the lake country, and Munich and Rothenburg are on the way from Innsbruck to Frankfurt so that's a no-brainer. What we gave up was Copenhagen, Chamonix, Salzburg/Vienna... basically, we decided on a route, listed all the stuff on it, and then decided what we HAD to see now, and what could wait.

So to sum up, figure out where you're flying into/out of and then play connect the dots until you're satisfied.

Ron asked what kind of transportation we are using: train (with rail pass). I managed to cut a lot so far. Tom asked what I'm still working with on my "rough draft" I trimmed it down to Germany, France, Italy. I've never been to Germany or Italy (except passing through by train) and my husband's never even been to Europe.

Germany - 2 nights in Munich including day trip to Oberammergau. 2 nights in Rothenburg (change to one?), could take Romantic Road bus from Munich Rick suggests. 2 nights in Baden Baden. Ricks "Rhine Blitz" tour by boat to Cochem and Burg Eltz and 1 night stay. Then France. (I cut a lot here already) Paris 3 nights (I've been here 2 times but husband never) with possible day trip to Versailles. Arles 1 night and Nice 2 nights (or can I do a day trip to Arles from Nice?). Then Italy. (I cut Rome - less than 3 days wouldn't do it justice and with travel that's a big chunk of time. Also cut Cinque Terre - French and Italian Riviera redundant, and Milan/Lake Como.) So now I have Venice with possible day trip 2 nights, Florence 2 nights, Siena with Hill Towns need 2 nights because of the number of places I want to explore.

Some questions I have are: Can Arles be a day trip from Nice? Do I have any overnight train options to save on hotel? Should I cut a night from anything here? How much travel time between some of these places?

Decisions, decisions!

Look at the Deutsch Bahn (German Rail-linked in the rail section of this website or google it) website for train info--they have all countries, so you can see if you have night train options. Definitely do this logistical planning to make sure your itinerary makes sense.

Re: Arles--it's over 3 hours by train from Nice, so I think that's too far for a day trip. Try to be there on market day--it's really a wonderful market.

One night is fine for Rothenburg. It's lovely but that's all you need.

I personally would cut out Baden Baden and the Rhine and give extra time to Provence. If you're going all the way there it's a shame not to see a hill town, the Pont du Gard, etc.

I agree, cut Rothenburg to one night and add that to Arles area. I would also cut Baden-Baden. You could add the extra time to either Provence or to Paris (3 days is not that much for Paris).

You have plenty of diversity in this itinerary. Personally, I would cut most of Italy on this trip and plan on doing it in depth another time.

I think Italy needs more time.

You didn't mention when you are going..hopefully it is not this summer, so you have plenty of time to plan.

If I were to rate countries/places, I would put Italy and Paris as number one choices. I happen to also like Provence a lot as it is a diferent pace from the others. I don't recommend withe Nice or Provence in summer as it can be very hot and very crowded as both are European vacation meccas.

For what it's worth - the first two trips I took to Europe I was traveling by train. I swore after the second trip that there would be NO one-night stands again!

It seemed that you no sooner got there when it was time to prepare to leave. And, yes, it's exhausting.

Now, the last two trips I had an automobile and that changes things a bit because you aren't schlepping luggage to and from your hotel and all that.

My personal advice, therefore, is to avoid one-night stands when at all possible.

I agree about Rothenberg as well one night is good.

I am always thinking I will go back to Europe so I do not try and pack too much into the trip, remember your trip should also have some "down time" to relax.

Good tips, Russ. Absolutely - I did that pretty much in 2006. Great areas!

my husband and I sound just like you. We want to see and do everything. The best way of travel was a Med carnival cruise. Belive it or not it was cheaper than if we traveled to all the countries ourself. It was the best...with a book "insight Guides.Mediterranean cruises"...it gives detailed information from every port, how to get to train, bus, etc. We also used Rick Steves, great help. We are going again in Sept....so much to see, we had enough time on shore and went to so many counties. Can you tell I'm excited

Destiny, Trying to eliminate one night stays is a good way to eliminate stress from your trip. That said, I almost always have a couple of one night stays in my European trips. I am fine with a fast pace now and then. There are always places I am just dying to see, even if it's just a small sample. I just try to follow them with longer stays, so I don't get worn out. I always enjoy these days immensely, even if they are tiring. I invariably either find a place I want to spend more time on a future trip or decide a sample was enough. Everyone has a different energy level and tolerance for moving around. You just need to figure out what works for you.

As far as trimming destinations, I usually do it by looking at a map. I try to pick the places that are all close together or easy to travel to and eliminate the ones that are going to take a long time to get to or involve difficult connections. You don't want to be spending your whole trip getting to places; you want to spend as much time as possible being there.

Good luck!

Generally the only times we do 1 or even 2 night stays are to break up a really long train trip. You need time to enjoy what is out there. And remember-- make this your mantra when you "cut" something--- "I WILL GO BACK"

in your 1st post you ask how to wrestle with the decision about what to cut. It's never easy because there are so many things to see.

What I do is start by focusing on transportation time. Spend some time on the Deutsche Bahn website and get time estimates between places you'd like to see. And have some paper handy so you can sketch out your trip. Some places get crossed off because it takes too much time to get there and including them would mean a lot of time sitting on trains as opposed to sightseeing on foot.

My rules of thumb:

Keep travel days short. Don't plan on more than three or four hours in a car or train (half that is better). By the time you add packing, checking out, getting to the train station, travel, meals, getting to your new lodging, checking in and unpacking an entire day is gone.

Plan an average of two-night stops. You may have the occasional one night stop but don't do it regularly because your entire vacation will be consumed with the paragraph above. Give yourself some time to enjoy where you are.

Based on those rules of thumb, I try to cut a logical swath through a region (France, Italy, Bavaria, UK, OR Ireland) rather than hopping around Europe wasting money and time. I map out a route based on how much time I have. I usually fly into one airport and out of another unless my itenerary makes a natural circle so I don't have to spend time and money doubling back.