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Not sure if I should cancel or continue trip - Thoughts?

To people that have been to the EU (France specifically), how safe have you felt traveling? I was debating canceling my trip because of the level 4 travel warning to France due to high covid cases. I am vaccinated but worried about delta.

I’m young (23) and vaccinated, but mainly worried about unknown long term affects of covid, even if mild.

At the same time, I feel like we’re going to be in this mess for years and given that France uses a health pass so everyone inside is vaccinated or has tested negative that makes me feel a lot safer.

Any thoughts and anyone else who hesitated? I’m planning on traveling solo and doing Airbnbs.

Posted by
2754 posts

it's not just when you're there, consider all the to'ing and fro'ing you're going to do. Planes, trains, subways, taxis, automobiles. Museums, Airbnbs, restaurants, airports. Vaxxed or not.

Posted by
21857 posts

It is hard to make a recommendation since we don't know your level of risk taking. All I can say is what we do or did. Last month we canceled our late Sep/early Oct London to Paris trip. Personally didn't think it was worth the hassle or uncertainty about what we could or could not do or other hoops we had to pass through. For us, there is next year and at 23 I would think that you would have a lot of next years. For us, airBnBs would be another level of risk not knowing who was there previously and the attention to detail of the host. And all of these health passports are not perfect either.

I don't have a crystal ball but we are willing to wait another year.

Posted by
1486 posts

Personally, I wouldn't travel right now, but for a reason you don't mention: people moving around is what causes the virus to spread. Viruses don't move by themselves.

I think the responsible thing to do is stay put. You're young and you have time to travel in the years ahead.

Posted by
287 posts

In case I missed it, when is your trip?

We cancelled a trip to France, and if we had gone as planned we would be flying back home from Paris tomorrow. It was a relief to cancel, honestly we have not once given that decision a second thought, and we look forward to going back to France as soon as it makes more sense to us, maybe later this year, but more likely next year at the earliest. Go with your gut on this one...

Posted by
353 posts

I too am in the "should I stay or should I go" camp with my son's upcoming wedding in Florida. For me, my thoughts are not just about travelling there and being there, but also will I be able to return home as planned. Be sure you are clear on the requirements for boarding your return flight home. Good luck with your risk assessment and decision making.

Posted by
287 posts

My trip is scheduled for September 18th, so in a couple weeks.

Have you already booked the AirBnBs? What kind of cancellation policies do they have? Can you get all your money refunded?

We were able to cancel our trip at zero cost to us - no money lost - and that certainly helped our feelings. We would have cancelled even if it had cost us money, but just curious how much you stand to lose financially if you cancel now?

Posted by
113 posts

All I have booked is the one way plane ticket there. Have not booked anything else. The plane ticket was an award ticket so I would simply get the airline miles back and the refund for the award ticket surcharge ($20).

So it’s not an issue of money to cancel. Just afraid of FOMO of not going to Europe.

Posted by
223 posts

We are scheduled to leave Sept 28th for Italy and home from Paris on Oct 22nd. We canceled last year so this is our rescheduled trip. As long as Italy and France will have us, everything we want to see and do are open we are going. Every tour we booked are a go. Every museum/ churches we want to see are open. In France, the places we want to see are open. We also went to Disney world with our family this summer and I figure if we can get thru that why not Europe. There is always a chance of getting the virus but if you are aware and take precautions you should be good. There is always chance of course, but it’s whatever you make of it. If your gonna be stressed and not be able to enjoy the trip than maybe wait. But if want to go, just go for it! I feel safer going to Europe than I do in US. Seems in Europe they are taking precautions more seriously. We are vaccinated also.

Posted by
21 posts

French cases seem to have peaked and are on a down trend. Combined with the enforcement of the health pass and your age/vax status, I would still go. Covid is not going away anytime soon thanks to irresponsible behavior in the US as well as many EU countries. Perhaps if I lived in a country like Taiwan or NZ I would feel differently but the numbers in America are so high I might feel safer traveling to the EU.

Posted by
11446 posts

Why do you think you will catch the Delta variant if you go to France but not just simply living your life at home.

Let me give you some facts.....France has a 7 day average of new cases of 25 per 100,000.

Washington State has a 7 day average of new cases of 43 per 100,000.

So, statistically, you actually have a better chance of catching Covid at home than you do in France.

I leave in six weeks. And unless countries start locking down and I am limited as to what I want to do, I'm going.

Posted by
294 posts

I think 2021 could be the golden age of travel to Europe. We so often complain about the cruise ships and the tour buses and other tourist crowds, well I hear they are are not so bad this year. Outside attractions are not very risky, and if you want to do something inside, then double mask to feel safer. Load up on vitamin D and C. At 23 and vaccinated (assuming you are healthy too), advantage to you!!! I (55) and my wife (60) will be in Greece starting September 19. We will do 2 islands and Peloponnese then Athens. We are vaxed and are planning outdoor things, bringing masks, taking our vitamins and will be aware of our surroundings. We live in NJ and were once considered a "COVID Hot Zone", so we pretty good at precautions!! Sure, we could get sick, but that could happen here too. Good luck, whatever you decide!!!

Posted by
6795 posts

Safety from exposure to COVID wouldn't be a deciding issue for me. With the low level of masking compliance I see around me here, on a daily basis, its probably safer there than here. But its the potential for inconvenience and hassles due to closures, restrictions on foreigners, or transportation interruptions that would be more pertinent. Solo? I think I'd risk it. Worst case, you'll have an adventure.

Posted by
34 posts

My wife and I just got back from Switzerland two days ago. People in Switzerland were pretty good about wearing a mask indoors. Everyone put on a mask as soon as they stepped into a building or onto public transit. It is unlike the US where we have a bunch of conspiracy theorists that refuse to wear a mask. I felt safer than being in the US. I'm so glad we went, we had a great time. Who knows if Europe will even be open next year.

Posted by
7263 posts

I am 52. I was in Europe for two weeks and France last month for 3 days in Chamonix. It was one of the best trips for outdoor natural beauty sight seeing I have ever taken in 20 years of travel. I felt safe just wearing my mask properly and social distancing. I am a music nerd and attended a famous outdoor music festival held since 2009 in the mountains overlooking Mont Blanc. Only those with a recent negative COVID-19 test were allowed into the festival so I felt pretty safe. I am a caregiver to a loved one with dementia which can be stressful. Also from March 2020 I had not gone anywhere. So I am glad I seized the opportunity to check off things on my bucket list when someone recognized I needed a break to recharge and filled in caregiving while I was gone.
Additionally I work at a University in Chicago attended by 30K students. The semester just started and we are now only working from home 40% of the time. This week a colleague was coughing all day in the office and is the first time I have felt unsafe since Covid started.

Posted by
24 posts

I returned from two weeks in France on Sunday. It felt substantially safer in terms of Covid than my experience with domestic US travel this year for several reasons:

1) I was required to show my pass sanitaire at every museum and indoor attraction and at every sit-down restaurant (whether eating indoors or outdoors). Some restaurants required the pass even for take-out orders.

2) Indoor mask compliance is nearly 100%, and many people wear masks outdoors, too, especially in more crowded places. Several outdoor markets I went to required masks.

3) Everyone on your flight to France will be vaccinated and/or have a recent negative test, which means essentially everyone in the airport will, too. The same holds for most trains, I believe, although I didn't use any mass transit during my trip.

4) There is hand sanitizer everywhere, and many businesses and attractions have a sign requesting that you use it before entering.

Based on what I've mentioned, I was more confident of avoiding Covid in France than at home in the US. In fact, I ate indoors at more restaurants in my two weeks in France than I have in the last 18 months in the US.

I certainly understand not wanting to travel right now, and I did consider cancelling my trip. I am happy I didn't, though. Based on the current situation in each country, it seems like the risk of getting Covid in France right now is a lot lower than it is in the US.

Posted by
891 posts

What you can do if you don't cancel:

  1. Find out an area with lower Covid cases in France
  2. Go to France but immediately transit to a lower-risk country.

I am leaving soon for the Alps (not France), and haven't booked hotels for the latter part of my trip, just to keep things flexible.

Posted by
113 posts

Wow did not expect so many replies. I am reading every single one but can’t reply to everything cause it’s too many, so apologize if I don’t reply to everyone.

Everyone makes a good case that covid cases are honestly similar in France and where I live. I’m leaning more towards going. Now I actually have to plan my trip haha

Posted by
222 posts

Having just cancelled my own trip to Italy last night, a couple thoughts:

  • I had no qualms regarding a direct flight from the west coast to Europe. Particularly by mid-month, I expect 95% or more of the passengers on board would have been fully vaccinated and the majority having taken a Covid test as well. That simply reflects the tighter requirements the Europeans are going to be putting place for US tourists.
  • I wasn't particularly worried about contracting Covid in Italy, with the exception of the small worry of what would happen if I tested positive when trying to return.
  • Being fully vaccinated and young, and given the requirements France has put in place to require vaccination for indoor activities, you are probably pretty safe. France's infection rate (as of this morning) is averaging 27 new cases/100,000 and dropping. The US is averaging 48.5 and still rising. Many states and areas within states a far higher -- my home county in southern Oregon is averaging over 134/100,000. You are probably safer from Covid in France!
Posted by
13723 posts

Should I cancel?

Absolutely yes!

UNLESS you aren’t terrified of the Delta Variant and how you would be impacted if you contracted it, are vaccinated, you are laid back enough to go with the flow, can book a trip that can be adjusted at a cost acceptable to you if things change (that means flights and hotels), can live with the farfetched possibility of getting sick overseas and can enjoy the trip you planned or your Plan B if things change.

For me it’s always been simple, I have taken two trips to Europe since COVID began (one in the fall of 2020 and one in the summer of 2021) and my third trip is booked and I have always had a Plan B in case something happens to Plan A (good thing is my bucket list is so large, Plan B was easy) and I found hotels with good cancelation policies and I travel on Turkish Air which has had very few if any cancelations and goes almost anywhere you would want to go (and cheaply) so Plan B is generally just changing the connecting flights.

But if you aren’t going to enjoy it that is 100% understandable; please STAY HOME as Europe will still be there in 2023 or 24.

Posted by
12990 posts


If it's the odds that concern you, the odds of not catching the virus are better in France than in numerous states in the US. In that case I would rather be in France, I've had my two shots. True, France is at level 4 and true too that much less resistance to wearing the mask and France has the health pass too. In SF checking one's CDC card is now mandatory for entering diners, bars, restaurants, good. problem with me on that.

I wouldn't travel now anyway since it is too late in the season, I prefer Paris and France in the summer. Next summer is the proposed trip.

Posted by
786 posts

An acquaintance who went to my high school who is now an emergency room doctor insisted that my chances of getting coronavirus-2019 disease are negligible, that most healthy, vaccinated people are unlikely to have a severe problem in case they catch the virus. There is a high chance that variants of the virus will be circulating for the rest of our lives; if you put your trip off, it will not be safer later, than on September 18th. There has always been a chance of catching other diseases from the environment, the water, spoiled food, mosquitos, or nearby people, when traveling.

I am 15 years older than you, or part of a year older or younger than that. My mother is psychotically horrified or mortified or worse every time I tell her I am taking a major trip; and she thinks I am nuts or worse, that my plans are "half-cocked" even though I do thorough research and plan everything well, and so on. Maybe I just won't tell her before I travel again. I do live on my own, work at a normal job, pay all my own bills, and so on.

Posted by
5 posts

I’ll throw in my two cents. The US State Department says don’t go. The EU says done come.
We are experiencing a global pandemic. Travel is really fun and people are antsy to move about.
Going abroad for the fun of it while urged not to by both US and EU agencies is a bit pushy.
Leisure travel may contribute to the duration and severity of the pandemic, even if just a little bit.
It’s sad to stay home but that’s where we are right now.

Posted by
13723 posts

The EU says don't come.

Actually , if that were true the choices would be easy. And we keep talking about the EU as though it "IS" Europe. It is a bit more than half of Europe.

To people that have been to the EU (France specifically), how safe
have you felt traveling? I was debating canceling my trip because of
the level 4 travel warning to France due to high covid cases. I am
vaccinated but worried about delta.

Cant answer France specifically, but I have been to 6 countries in the last 60 days, and while you might be well legitimate in worrying, even to the point of hurting your enjoyment, I was pretty much okay.

I’m young (23) and vaccinated, but mainly worried about unknown long
term affects of covid, even if mild.

This is not really the right forum to debate the effects of COVID; specifically the webmaster has requested that we don't.

At the same time, I feel like we’re going to be in this mess for years
and given that France uses a health pass so everyone inside is
vaccinated or has tested negative that makes me feel a lot safer.

If it does make you feel safe, then go; no one can make this decision for you, but the best advice may be to stay home unless you are sure you will enjoy the trip.

Any thoughts and anyone else who hesitated? I’m planning on traveling
solo and doing Airbnbs.

I traveled part of my trip solo and did a number of Airbnb's; no issues that spoiled the enjoyment on my trip, but I am not you so think it through.

Posted by
113 posts

This is not really the right forum to debate the effects of COVID; specifically the webmaster has requested that we don't.

Oh I wasn’t trying to debate anything by saying that. Just was saying what was in my mind for why I was hesistant.

I think I’m going to go on the trip. I feel like the other reasons were very valid for going

Posted by
8507 posts

You asked for people who have been here. I've been in France for two months and go back and forth to the US as a dual national. This is what a nurse at the airport in Nice told me in September 2020 "you're going to find it's very different here." And it is.
In the US, I was holed up in my house from March to September 2020 while family and friends in France were finally able to on vacations and eat outside in restaurants after their strict, difficult lockdown. I left France two days before that first lockdown began. We've been here for later waves, none as horrid as the first, but it's not politicized and opposition to the pass sanitaire is small, but vocal. It's nothing at all like the States. In fact, on the ex-pat FB group for those of us living in France, people wish those traveling to the States good luck and hope they can make it back here safely. That's the view from this side of the pond.

I feel safe here though I live along the Mediterranean where cases are the highest. We mask up, both outside and inside, per government order. Many don’t wear masks outside. In the past week, I've shown my pass to enter a mall, museum, many restaurants, outdoor museum, a weekend conference at an education center in a hostel-like setting in the countryside (where fifty people participated). We also stayed in two hotels breaking up the drive. I won't stay in Airbnb during C-19. In late July, we went to classical music festival performances inside theaters several times, always with the pass sanitaire. I'll be taking a TGV to Paris and Brittany in a couple of weeks and stopping in Paris for a little visit on the way back to the south. My only concession is that I may go first class instead of second. We also have a week in Rome planned next month, flying. I hope this gives you a picture on the ground. Numbers here are dropping and the fourth wave is waning, all my groups and activities are starting up in person, not virtually. Between the pass sanitaire, masking, and a fully vaccinated rate of 68.6%, life is different in France.

Posted by
2742 posts

I don’t want to talk you into going if you aren’t comfortable- this is a personal choice and I don’t think there’s a wrong answer. But in your shoes I would go but be careful. Here’s why-

-assuming you are in the US you are probably safer in France than home due to vaccine requirements in business and current case counts (confirm this).

-covid will be with us for a long time, the vaccine and masks are our best tools and if you have that I think it’s time to consider how to safely do things instead of just stopping everything. As a young person with no high risk conditions you are in a good position to travel if you want. Maybe you decide no to this year, but eventually we will all need to decide our risk tolerance and lines so might as well start thinking about it now. Are you waiting for lower cases at home? Vaccine boosters? Perfectly reasonable. Are you waiting until there is zero risk? Never happening, unfortunately.

-as for safely - when you say Airbnb, I’m
assuming you mean private, you rent the apartment. If you mean renting a room in a strangers home, that would be a no for me. But having an apartment gives you space to be safe and a kitchen so you can eat at home if you can’t find a restaurant that feels ok. Also I’d get some kn95 masks for the plane, metro, and anywhere else higher risk (indoor, crowded). I’d also test before going even if it’s not required. Just to make sure, both for my own health and to not bring covid with me and spread! And of course be extra careful in the week before travel.

Posted by
1129 posts

France is still France, whether or not you have to wear a mask or show a QR code. But if having to do either of those things annoys you, perhaps you shouldn't go.

The Delta variant is here---be it in France--be it in the USA. For me, I went to France right when the border opened back up in June. Granted, the Delta variant was only talked about then but I most certainly do not regret my trip. I got to visit many places without the throngs of tourists---and it was awesome. But my story is a little different than most travelers. I am a French speaker, am in a relationship with a Parisian , and while I do do "touristy" things - I consider myself a rather seasoned traveler of France. It's not foreign to me.

If covid is going to be the top thing on your mind and it prevents you from enjoying the experience, there is no harm in canceling. You gotta do you. For me, on the other hand, the thought of the border being closed and me not being able to go visit my significant other is pure hell. Bad enough that the US border is closed for Europeans.

Posted by
258 posts

My wife and I are 70 and 73. We were in France from 2 August to 15 August. We mostly were outdoors driving around Brittany (9 nights) and doing self-guided walks in Paris (4 nights). We had a great time. Masks were required indoors but we're used to that now. Brittany was busy (with Parisians?) and Paris was pretty empty. We went to the Opera Granier with a pre-arranged ticket but walked right in to l'Orangerie. The restaurants were being very safe and the food is still fabulous.

Our one real precaution was taking buses in Paris instead of the Metro. We've had our two jabs and felt very safe.

Posted by
2207 posts

Like Bets, living overseas we may have a different perspective. For many Europeans, they see COVID as here to stay for the next few years. They do not see "an end" or are even thinking they can end Covid soon. Thus, they are implementing systems - like the centralized, government-supported EU Digital COVID Certificate - to help work through the challenges of COVID restrictions. The European vaccination numbers - even in a country like the NL, where we started 2-3 months behind EVERYONE - are now mostly higher in percentage than the USA (Dutch government reports 73% of persons over 12 are vaccinated - their goal is 85%).

Life goes on... and you adapt. Over the next three months - primarily for business - I am traveling to Rome, Florence, Seville, Paris, Brittany, London, Northern Italy (including Venice), and then to Atlanta for the Christmas holidays. Frankly, the most concerning trip is the one to Atlanta. I know the rules, parameters, and COVID environments much better in Europe than I do in the USA. And the southern USA seems to have some COVID challenges. As mentioned, although there is a small group of anti-vax folks in Europe, the vaccine and the required systems (mask-wearing) are not as politicized as it appears in the USA. (During the lockdowns, yes, we had many protests!).

That all said, I - like many locals - are very aware of COVID and it does shape our daily lives. Although masks are not required indoors in the NL now, I still wear one when I enter many locations - especially the crowded grocery stores. I frequent restaurants that I know will adhere to the social distancing requirements. I carry hand sanitizer and use it frequently. So you adapt.

Perhaps the biggest concern - having been there for many months - is that Europeans DO NOT want to have to do another lockdown. THOSE WERE PAINFUL DAYS - emotionally and economically! Like many Dutch locals, we cringed under the narrow entry restrictions that were in place for 15+ months here in the NL. We could literally not go anywhere - because countries prevented NL residents to visit (our numbers were SO bad) or you couldn't get back in without multiple tests required. Since June 24 - with the relaxing of standards to visitors - we've swayed the other way and many want the government to reinstate some rules as the NL is fairly wide-open now.

The vaccinations have made a huge impact here. And the government, like many other countries, is addressing the 3rd jab for residents - which we're happy to hear about. (an announcement due by end of September). There's no doubt the vaccinations have had a tremendous impact on hospitalizations and deaths. I looked the other day and the NL had 2 deaths on that date. As this country is 20 times smaller in population than the USA (17 million vs. 330 million)... that would be the equivalent of 40 deaths in the US. So I went and looked and saw that - as of Sept. 1 - the US is averaging 1400+ deaths a day. So yes, given that stat, I do feel much safer in the NL.

But as mentioned by others, you have to feel comfortable traveling and being in a foreign, unknown environment. I'd agree that COVID is everywhere and you can catch it walking down your street... just as you can at a hotel in Europe. But there is a higher vaccination rate here now than in the USA, COVID is perhaps less politicized, and you will not be admonished for wearing a mask if you so choose. Traveling these days is a personal choice - just like going into your local stores, a movie, a restaurant, or a sports event. Gather information, viewpoints, and opinions - as you're doing - and make the best-educated, balanced decision that fulfills you. You have to do what works for you. Good Luck!

Posted by
109 posts

Given your age and the other advice on this thread, I think you should go! We did cancel our 3 week trip to France in August primarily because our return date was too close to the first day of school and my 7th grader (fully vaccinated) was really stressed about the small chance she would miss the start of school if we had to quarantine in France due to a positive test. We have been several times to France so it was fine to cancel, although disappointing. We may try to go during the December holidays. All this to say, you may want to have a plan in place should you test positive in France before you return back to the US.

Posted by
5630 posts

We did an 8 day tour of Iceland (Ring Road and Blue Lagoon) in early August and loved it. We spent most of our time in rural areas with few people.

We had another trip to Italy planned with a transatlantic cruise home, but the cruise was cancelled. We opted to cancel the trip. Glad we did. Not sure the EU would let us in (the trip was for October).

We are vaccinated and willing to take the risks. The fatality rate of COVID19 is less than 1%. Yes, some people that live have a rough time with the disease even after recovery.

Here is why we cancelled:
1) Wearing a mask all the time reduces the fun of such travel.
2) There is still the risk of catching the disease and being either being in the hospital or quarantined.
3) With hospitalization or quarantine, we have friends that have had miserable times being quarantined in isolation with no human contact.

We are in our 70s and have traveled quite a lot, but still have several more places to visit in our lives, but as we age, we realize that we are slowing down a bit and know that we only have so many years left to tour. Still, we can wait another year.

Although, I think this virus will be around for a while, not sure when if at all herd immunity will happen. Currently in the USA almost 73% of people over 12 have at least one shot. Still, we have a safari in East Africa booked for next July, and still not sure how that will work, since few have been vaccinated there.

Posted by
786 posts

This is a personal decision and things to consider
-your risk of acquiring COVID (vaccination status, case load in the area of France you are traveling, your plans when you arrive, your willingness to wear a mask when required and in situations that maybe a little more high risk like a crowd outside)
-are you going to do the things you really want to do (are the museums you want to see open for example)
-what is your travel budget? If you go on this trip and you hit some road blocks and don’t have quite the trio you are expecting, will it be years before you can go to Europe again?
-what is your emotional and financial ability to deal with something unexpected? Something closes or you must stay longer somewhere because a train schedule changed last minute or your COVID test is positive upon return to the United States?

I am choosing to travel to Italy at the end of the month. I plan to spend most of my time outside (eating, hiking, attending some outdoor Italian language classes). So I think my transmission risk will be very low but I accept it is not zero. I am mentally prepared for a quarantine if I end up with a positive test on return. And if all I do on my trip is walk around and eat and drink wine in a piazza, I’m happy with that. Some Italy is better than no Italy at all. But this is also not my first time to Italy and I will still have a lot in my travel budget for a return trip.

Posted by
491 posts

Just a response to the folks who correctly pointed out the incidence of COVID per 100,00 in parts of the USA is higher than in France: There are other significant factors to consider. First is the risk of traveling to and from your vacation destination. Then, what kinds of accommodations are you using on vacation compared to the safety of your own home? How much public transit are you using on vacation compared to home? How much of your time on vacation will be spent in public settings compared to time at home? How many meals will be taken in public settings compared to home? Are people social-distancing and wearing masks? Etc.

I'm not advising SeaTraveler to go or not to go, but I am suggesting that there are multiple risk factors. Personally, when I travel I want to be out and about. I'm on and off public transit, in and out of stores and historic sites, dropping into restaurants and coffee shops, and often chatting with strangers. That style of travel carries far more exposure risk than I currently have as I work from home.

Posted by
8507 posts

A couple of people have mentioned closures and transportation cancellations--not happening here in France. Everything is open and all transportation is running.

The French group-travel companies we use are running their European tours. I checked the Rome tours; they were full. So their French clientele is comfortable traveling within the EU. But traveling within the EU doesn't require a test to get home the way the US does.

Posted by
287 posts

I agree with Anita. There is more to evaluating relative risk of being at home vs being abroad than the infections per 100k that people here and elsewhere are citing. At home, I am not riding on mass transit, or mixing and mingling in large crowds, or eating 2 or 3 meals a day out at a restaurant...all of these are what you do when you travel vs what you do at home.

Posted by
99 posts

The infection rate in your target destination compared to your home infection rate is not much of a factor imo. Because when you travel, what you are doing is much different than when you are home. Being in airports, on planes, in cars/shuttles, in hotels, going to indoor attractions like museums and restaurants - just a different activity level - and that's where your risk comes from.

Plus the precautions you would have to take - like wearing a mask for an hour plus while you are in a museum - or just being around others unmasked depending on the rules in France - and for an entire flight twice - and having to schedule these covid tests coming and going (and being concerned about it coming back positive which would mean being quarantined in France in your case - would take a lot of the enjoyment out of it for me. Just not fun. Maybe you can tolerate things better, but for me not worth it.