Newbie - Tips, Tricks, and Itineraries

Seven cities (which city in Austria were you considering?) in six countries in 18 days means less than three days in each city. Have you looked at how far these places are from each other or considered how you will get from place to place? Any time you change cities you will lose a half to a whole day in travel time and getting resettled, so that means you instantly lose up to a week's time just to moving. Have you thought about what you want to see or do in each? You won't have to worry about enjoying the culture and surroundings because you won't have time for that.

Since you are not seasoned travelers, you really can't imagine how difficult it can be to just get through normal daily activities in a language that you don't speak, where things like metros and and buses and laundromats don't work the same way they do at home, and you have to feed yourselves and find places to stay. You would be much, much happier choosing a maximum of maybe three or four cities. Choose cities that make geographic sense, and travel "open jaw" - into one city and out of another. You won't get to see everything, but no one ever does. I have never returned from a trip feeling like I had plenty of time in this place or that. There is always something that I miss. Treat this trip as a sampler, and decide that you will be back later to see more.

If it was me, I would cut out some of the cities. When you consider travel time between cities, you will barely have enough time anywhere. If you haven't already, you might want to go to a rail site, such as the Deustsche Bahn web page, to find times between your locations. As far as non-touristy things to do, my tips might be kind of odd, but here they are! I enjoy going to a grocery store just to see the differences and to buy a few items. I take a few walks through residential neighborhoods. Between visiting tourists sites, I like to find a park to sit in and just people watch. These are just a few little things I do between things to just try to experience some of the local culture. Have a great trip!

Agree,it is far too much. Suggest you two decide your top three places you want to see and go from there. You could for example fly into London, five days there, then train to Paris and then cheap flight to Rome and home from there, is called flying open jaw. With what you plan, you will not be able to enjoy local culture and believe me, you will be able to go back sometime. You want to enjoy honeymoon, not be rushed with too much traveling.

With that time and list of destinations, you'll mostly see airports. And spend most of your time packing and unpacking. There are several ways to 'do' a 'better and more enjoyable' itinerary. Even with overnight trains, you'll loose most of your time to getting between places.
Here are a few ways you could look at things:

Pick 3 or 4 places- maybe go "traditional" with London, Paris and Rome (you could add Vienna if you must). With almost a week in each you might even have time for a day trip from each city.

Or pick 1 or 2 cities and do several day trips to explore the region(s). London makes an excellent base. I've been more than 40 times and there's lots I still want to do and much more I want to do again! Here's a link to an article I wrote for Trip Advisor (It includes some of my favorite sites in London and my favorite sites for day trips.)
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g186338-c176673/London:United-Kingdom:London.And.Day.Trips.html. You could add Paris (easy to get to by the Eurostar train) or Rome... or Vienna... or Berlin.... and do similar trips from there.

You might find exploring one country in depth interesting. Austria, Italy, the UK, or France have PLENTY of cities, town and rural places of interest and you could use public transportation or rent a car (depends on your preference and comfort level).

Have a long talk with hubby-to-be and try to narrow things down. It can be done if you will simply accept Rick's advice that
YOU WILL RETURN!!!!!

Unless you are just trying to check off cities so you can say you've been there, you will have to do some eliminating. It's hard, but we all have to do it.

I find it easier to plan by spreading a map of Europe out in front of me to see where my desired destinations are in relation to each other. I also consider how much time it will take to travel between them. Night trains sound like a good idea, but I think you would find very few people who actually got any sleep on them. And night trains aren't always available anyway.

Another thing I do that makes it easier for me to plan is to consider how many nights I will spend in each place. If I spend 2 nights it gives me one full day, etc. If you cut your wish list down to no more than 4 places you will have a much better experience and you might even find a little time to do some "non-touristy" things.

Of the places you mention I would do something like this -

• Fly to London and spend 5 nights. That will ease you into Europe by starting in an English speaking country. You would have sufficient time to do a day trip outside of London, such as to Bath.

• Take the Eurostar train to Paris. Spend 5 nights. For your honeymoon it would make a great romantic city to explore together. You would have time to do a day trip to Versailles or elsewhere.

• Fly to Venice. Spend 3 nights.

• Take the train to Rome. Spend 5 nights. You would have time to do a day trip from Rome. Maybe to Orvieto, to experience a hill town. Fly home from Rome.

When booking your flights you will want to select the multi-city option. Even if it is a few more dollars than flying round trip, you have to consider how much money and time you will save not having to backtrack to where you entered Europe.

I know how heartbreaking it is to have to cut places, but remember that you can always return.

hollypacker,

congrats on your wedding.

as others have said, its alot of pack into your time. I personally think its way too much, but some people live in the fast lane and like it. So its going to be interesting to see what you finally end up doing.

i guess all i can add is that its your honeymoon, not a marathon, but thats up to you.

happy trails.

Honeymoon = romantic settings + time to enjoy + laughter + making time to create great memories

As a novice traveler you are more likely to to encounter some travel glitches and corresponding stress. Take control of reducing the potential for travel stress by selecting three cities and do them well.

Consider flying to london, then taking a train to paris and then taking the new high speed train to barcelona. This will allow visiting three distictly different countries/locales all of which offer: large menus to satisfy any travelers appetite, excellent transportation within the cities and ez access to taking a day trip out of the city.

Ask your bride if she would rather unpack three times or live out of a suitcase, including lugging the suitcase,through multiple destinations?
Next check out renting apts in each location. We find apts to be a better value, offer more space, a kitchen, sometimes a clothes washer and often in a non hotel district which can be quieter and more engaging.

Finally, pack half of what you think you must have. Traveling lite makes for a less stressful trip. Want to score points with the new Mrs.? Encourage her to do a little clothes shopping in each city. Imagine her face lighting up w a big smile when a girlfriend ask her where did she get the cute blouse? And she answers "oh, it's just a little something i bought in paris/london/barcelona."

30 years of marriage teaches a husband a couple of things...........

Finally, when have the two of you been together 24/7 for 20 days? Uh huh. Make sure you two understand the need to have a little bit of your "own time" in order to help with minimizing "turbulance".

Enjoy a great wedding and go make some fun memories on your honeymoon!

Holly – congratulations on your upcoming wedding!

I totally get how it’s so tempting to want to see everything when you go to Europe. However, you will be exhausted and wondering where all the fun is if you stick to your proposed itinerary. Just to give you a general idea of travel times, here is what I found on bahn.de (the go to site for looking up train travel)

London – Paris: 2.5 hrs
Paris – Bern: 4-5 hrs with 1-2 changes
Bern – Berlin: 8 – 9 hours with 0-2 changes
Berlin – Austria (Vienna?): 9.5 – 10 hrs with 1-2 changes
Vienna – Venice: 10 hrs with 2-3 changes
Venice – Rome: 3.5 hrs

As far as night trains, you may want to do a search on this site to see what people say about it (there aren’t many fans!)

I too agree that you need to simplify a little. And fly open jaw into one city and out of another. I try to go in cities that are relatively close, and cities that have good transportation in between. I've done the overnight train, and all I got out of it was a night of little/no sleep.

How about flying into Paris and doing your art and architecture thing there? Then take the Eurostar up to London.

Leave London by Gatwick's budget air carrier, Easyjet.com and fly down to Rome. Budget air carriers get you relatively long distances so cheap and fast (versus trains.)

At this point, you'll have used about 13 days, as Paris, London and Rome are each worth at least 4 days each.

Take a train from Rome to Florence, another great city of art, architecture, food, culture. Then take a 2 hr. train from Florence into Venice. Venice is another memorable and romantic city--and one of my favorites.

Fly home from Venice. If you had another week, I'd tell you to take a train up through Austria and into Munich--another premier European city.

You can save Barcelona, Switzerland and Berlin for your next trip. Because you will be back.

holly,

To begin with, congratulations on your wedding!

Unfortunately, I believe it will be necessary to prune your proposed Itinerary even further. Visiting seven locations across such a wide area in a space of 18 days only allows about 2.5 days in each, with no allowances for travel times between them, which in some cases will require the better part of a full day.

The best solution (IMO) would be to list each of the places you want to visit in order of priority from most important to least important, and then choose the top four places and start your planning with those. My suggestion based on the places you listed would be London, Paris, Venice and Rome, as it will be relatively easy to work out transportation links with those. However, it may be possible to squeeze Bern in?

As you're not "seasoned travellers", I'd suggest reading Europe Through The Back Door prior to your trip, as that provides a LOT of good information on "how" to travel well in Europe.

It would help to have some idea where you're travelling from? Your profile doesn't list a home location.

Good luck with your planning!

New travel to Europe could be very stressful and with so many cities to travel to, the chance of that stress increasing could be guaranteed. I would want a honeymoon without the chance of tension/stress. I had 8 nights for my honeymoon and went with Belgium, spending my time in Bruges, Ghent; side tripped to Brussels and Antwerp. There was no stress or tension in that trip; on normal trips there is as we like to go many places in a short period of time. Pick 3 cities and spend 6 days in each with maybe some side trips. I would chose London, Paris, and Venice on your list. Paris and Venice could be the most romantic cities on your trip, so why not make them no hassle by taking your time in them. I would chose 3 cities, but would not do any more than 4 cities at the most.

You might be asking why everyone is advising fewer cities when RS does a 21 day (20 night) "Best of Europe" tour with 11 cities? Different animals. On the BOE, everything is set up efficiently, short transfers by tour bus, lots of preplanned activities. A honeymoon is all about you two. We've found that the longer you stay in one place, the more "non-touristy" things you will find out about.

Why Bern? If it is to see family/friends, that is one thing, but otherwise I'd give it a pass.

As to overnight trains, I think you could give it a try, if only for the experience. The Thello makes a nightly run from Paris to Venice in 13 hours at 145 euro per person in a 2 bed sleeping compartment. You can probably beat that price with a budget airline, and the quality of sleep will not be the same as a canal side hotel room, but its nice to knock that one off the bucket list. You'll never know until you try.

Longer stays also bring renting an apartment into play rather than tiny hotel rooms for the same or less money.

So there you have it. London, Paris, Venice, Rome. Now go and do what you want really want to do. Making your own mistakes is part of the fun.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to plan three cities max (that are relatively close to each other) and add some intermediate stops in between.

A couple of examples: Plan for Rome, Florence and Venice and plan a few days to explore Tuscany (Siena, Volterra, etc.). Plan for London, Paris and Amsterdam, and plan a few days to see some of the lowlands (Brugges, Ghent, etc.). Plan for Berlin, Vienna and Prague, and plan a few days for intermediate stops (Dresden, Cesky Krumlov, etc.).

Make these your next three trips to Europe, rather than trying (and failing) to see it all in one trip.

Here's some of my general planning rules:

Save money where you can so you can spend it where you want. I save on lodging (by staying in small hotels, pensions, sometimes hostels) and food (by buying most of my food in grocery stores) - but spend it on admission fees to sights I want to see in an area. You may want to eat and sleep well; if so, do it - they're your priorities.

Use open-jaw flights (fly into one end of your itinerary and home from the other end) to save valuable time by reducing back-tracking.

Remember to calculate travel days into your plans. Two nights in a place means you will have one full day with a travel day on either side (three nights = two full days, etc.)

My personal limit on travel days is four hours travel time, because I know that a large chunk of your day is consumed with packing, checking out, getting to transportation, finding meals, making connections, getting to your lodging, checking in, and getting settled. When you plan longer travel days, it becomes more of a death march than an enjoyable experience. I also plan as few one night stays as possible to avoid the "death march" feeling.

I'll never use an over-night train. I can sleep anywhere, including on a train. I'm not bugged by the motion or noise of a train as much as the hustle and bustle, stops and starts, cars being decoupled and rerouted along the way. I'm a great sleeper, my wife isn't. If I have trouble getting a good night's sleep, there's no way my wife will. Lack of sleep will directly affect your enjoyment of your trip (in every way imaginable) - so don't take that part of your trip lightly.

Been there, did that in 2010 - our 2nd trip to Europe.

We had from Sept 17-Oct 10 (22 days - the 10th was flying home, arrived early morn on the 17th in London).

We did 11 stops all thru France/Germany/Austria/Venice/Switzerland/UK. Yes, 11 stops in 22 days. (Paris/Strasbourg/Augsburg/Munich/Salzburg/Venice/Spiez/Bern/Zurich/Portsmouth for a sister visit and London) My husband totally forgot we even visited Munich...we were going thru pictures and he couldn't even remember where it was and what we did! I was against the whirlwind trip but he wanted to see 'everything' he could...we did - a lot of train stations and blurry fast visits trying to squeeze in everything we could with no time for relaxing. We had all of about 4 hours to sightsee in Strasbourg, a half day in Munich. Venice and London we had been to before. We had a morning to see Zurich after arriving late the night before and having to catch a flight back to London. You really need to cut out one or two places. I can't say which you have your heart set on the most, but my two-cents (or nickel since we don't have the penny any more in Canada)...Venice is my absolute fav spot (I have squeezed it into our 3 trips to Europe). Paris is amazing and romantic (we revisited in 2012). Can't comment on Berlin. Bern we didn't see much of (tho Switzerland is gorgeous, but EXPENSIVE). Rome, our first trip in 2008, is crazy and hectic and amazing...we had 5 nights there and didn't do it justice.

If it was me, I would do London-Paris-Venice-Rome (not sure where you want to fly in and out of). This trip CAN be done, but I don't know if trying to enjoy a honeymoon would be synonymis with the hectic pace you will be setting (the marriage could be over before it begins! ;) ). But whatever you decide, I hope you have a blast...

By now, you've surely gotten the idea... your proposed trip is barely physically possible, and almost certainly not enjoyable. So, I won't add to the chorus of "cut", because hopefully by now, its fairly obvious.

A few other stray observations. Make sure you factor jetlag in your plan. Some rare travelers are fortunate not to experience it. The majority of us, though, view it as inevitable and we factor in that we'll need to limit our ambitions on the first day or two.

"but I would love some tips on "non-touristy" things to do." "but I want to make sure we are enjoying the culture and our surroundings too" If these are to be anything but empty catch-phrases, you need to take your time. You can't just land in a new city or country then leave a day or two later and expect to get your hands on the pulse of the place. You need to gradually get a feel of your environment, observe the flow of people, explore your surroundings, keep an eye on the local news to see what's happening, etc.

It's been said before and it will be said again. Don't try to do everything on one trip. If you really want to see more, you'll find a way to come back. Europe's not going anywhere soon.

And I'm surprised nobody mentioned this website: Deutsche Bahn, the national rail website for Germany. The rail search engine here is just about the closest you'll find to a comprehensive time table for all of Europe. You can only use it for purchasing tickets that involve Germany, but it will give you a good estimate of how long it actually takes to go from point A to point B anywhere on the continent. Then of course, add several hours for checkout, getting to the station, arrival, getting to your next hotel, check-in, unpacking, etc. This should help give you a realistic time estimate of how long it really takes to move around.

holly good advice here. I agree with skipping Bern. Not very scenic if you are just wanting to "see" Switzerland. When you are looking at travel times between cities, you have to realize it is not just the xx-hours of the train ride. It includes the time it takes to pack, get to train station or airport, eating lunch, the waiting, and then the reverse at the next station. So each time you go to a new location you are eating up a whole day. You are planning on going on relatively long distances between all these places, and the memory of your honeymoon will be of train stations and boring train rides, not experiencing the destinations.

holly,

To add to my previous comments, I was also surprised that Bern was on the list. While the city does have some interesting sights, the usual favourite with many here is the nearby Berner Oberland and the Lauterbrunnen Valley. Is there a particular reason you wanted to visit Bern?

In reading through the replies here, there seems to be somewhat of a consensus that London, Paris, Venice and Rome would be the best choice (which I also mentioned earlier).

Thank you so much for all the advice. I don't mean to seem ungracious by taking forever to respond. I was thinking I would get an e-mail notification when people replied. I was kind of bummed when I thought that no one was helping me out, so I was thrilled when I logged on to double check and saw all these replies.

It is very confusing when you see tours that city hop every day or two, but I totally get that we are not experienced enough to pull that off.

For those of you who wanted to know why Bern was on the list, we weren't set on staying in Bern itself. We wanted to see the Swiss Alps, and I had Bern in my notes, because I had found and overnight train from Bern to Berlin, but we probably would have ended up staying elsewhere in Switzerland. As for Austria, I wanted to see Vienna. Per all the wonderful advice, I have cut both Bern and Vienna from our travel plans.

London and Venice are top of our lists. After that, my fiance wants Berlin and I want Paris, so I would appreciate it if everyone would tell us how much better Paris is (just kidding). I actually was the one who threw out Berlin as a suggestion, because my fiance wants to see Germany and experience some of the WWII history sites. Is there maybe somewhere closer to the border of France he would like? I can live without Rome, but will it really be that much added trouble if we are already in Venice? Could we do maybe just a day or two in Rome to see the big sites?

Are there any tricks to booking an open jaw flight? All of the one way trips I've seen are outrageous, sometimes more than a round trip.

To book open jaw flights, just go to the airline site or travel website you plan to use, and on the section where you are entering the cities for the flight, select "multiple destinations" (or whatever similar term the website uses.) you then enter each individual city you are flying to and from and the dates of the flights. You book all legs of the trip together. In my experience, the price, at least if you are starting and ending in the same city, is usually not a lot different from a regular round trip flight.

Found the multiple city search button. This makes me feel way better. Before I was just searching one way flights and it was crazy expensive.

holly,

Now that you've reduced your list, it should be easier to work out a reasonable Itinerary. Are you set on visiting Berlin for WW-II sights? You might also consider Munich, as there are some significant sights in that area. The Nazi party started in Munich and there's an interesting walking tour that covers that part of the history (have a look at Radius Tours website for a description). Some sights that you could visit are Dachau (which was the first camp, opened in 1933), the Eagles Nest and the Dokumentation Centre & Bunkers in Berchtesgaden.

That would also fit better with your other destinations, and Munich has a lot of other great sights to visit as well. The Hofbrauhaus is a bit "touristy", but it has an interesting history and well worth a look (there's an "unusual appliance" in the men's washroom). There are other nice beer halls and restaurants also. Hitler used to hold rallies in the large banquet room on the top floor of the Hofbrauhaus. One of my favourite places to visit in Munich is the incredible Deutsches Museum, which has over 16 kM of exhibits covering a huge variety of topics. Wandering around Marienplatz at night is a lot of fun and there are often some really good street musicians performing there. Be sure to have a look at the Glockenspiel on the Neues Rathaus (New City Hall).

There are lots of possibilities, but one suggestion would be along these lines.....

• D1: Depart U.S.
• D2: Arrive London
• D3: London
• D4: London
• D5: EuroStar to Paris
• D6: Paris
• D7: Paris
• D8: Train to Lauterbrunnen Valley, Switzerland so that you can see the Swiss Alps (about 5.5 hours to Interlaken Ost, 1 or 2 changes) - visiting in June should should be good, provided the weather co-operates. I felt that Switzerland could be included as it fits with the route.
• D9: Lauterbrunnen Valley
• D10: Train to Munich (about 6.5 hours, 2 or 3 changes)
• D11: Munich
• D12: Munich
• D13: Munich
• D14: Train to Venice (about 6.5 hours if you take the direct train that departs at 11:38 and arrives at18:10, otherwise slightly longer with one change at Verona).
• D15: Venice
• D16: Venice
• D17: Train to Rome (3H:33M via high speed Freccia direct train - a VERY easy and pleasant trip at 300 kmH).
• D18: Rome
• D19: Rome
• D20: Return flight to U.S.

There are many possibilities, and this is only one suggestion. I'd suggest pre-booking accommodations as May/June is spring shoulder season and it will probably be very busy!

Good luck with your planning!

I didn't assume Holly and intended were aching to see Berne, but rather wanted to get a taste of the Alps.

The Berner Oberland, south of Berne, is spectacular. It's a fitting honeymoon destination.

I'd plan for a good 3 nights there at least; also because mountains are slow it will probably take you most of a day to get there.

How you fit this in to other priorities is up to you, but 5-7 days each in Paris and London plus Switzerland, with perhaps a stop in Burgundy or Alsace, works if you fly home from Zurich.

You can swap in different cities, but I think that for newbie first timers every additional destination you add will probably reduce the overall quality of your trip. Just think about that.

Okay, that means many more painful decision, but just tell yourself that brutal honesty about what's possible now means a better trip later.

I also like London > Paris > Provence (fly home form Provence) or even Paris > Provence > Venice > Rome (home from Rome), perhaps with stop in Tuscany. The firs of these itineraries is particularly efficient logistically because the trains are so good.

Congratulations, and have a wonderful trip!

By now you are no doubt inundated with the innumerable options available to you. I pulled out what I thought were the most relevant phrases from your 1/9 response to try to get back to basics.

Below are my interpretations and guesses and suggestions about those basics.

"see the Swiss Alps"--The Alps aren't just in Switzerland. My husband and I drove for 2 weeks through the area of the Alps in Austria, Italy, Switzerland and France. The mountain range is beautiful in every country. You might be able to work out an itinerary that would route you through them just for the scenery or into them for the WWII history (i.e. Berchtesgaden, excellent tour to the Eagle's Nest, run by Americans).

"London and Venice are top of our lists"--What do you want to see or do there? Figure that out to determine how long you really need to stay. I liked both cities, my husband hated both. He couldn't wait to get out of them and 2 nights was way too long for him in Venice. I think the pouring rain had something to do with that. He might have liked it better with better weather.

"fiance wants to see Germany and experience some of the WWII history sites"--Berlin and Munich have both been recommended by others. By default, just about any WWII history site is going to be somewhat touristy, especially at the time you are going. But, I want to add another, smaller and perhaps less crowded, option--Nuremberg. I recommend that he learn about what there is to see in all three and choose one. From your "closer to France" comment you have taken note of the fact that Berlin is pretty far east and north of where you would arrive by Eurostar on the continent...and Paris. Nuremberg or Munich are more along a route to the Alps and Italy.

"I want Paris"--Well, who wouldn't?! We love Paris. But it's another place you would need to be very specific about what you will do and see in whatever time you have there. Last time we were there, we took a walking tour about Paris during WWII which might be of interest to your soon-to-be husband. It was guided by an American.

"a day or two in Rome to see the big sites"--With only a day or two, the prioritization will be painful. You will definitely need to pick what to see carefully. Perhaps equally as touristy, but certainly not as hectic would be going to Florence instead.

Have you checked the DB Bahn site to get an idea of the distances, routes, number of train changes and time it will take to go between your potential city options? Although you can't book trains for anywhere except Germany there, you can sure see all the other information and even click on a map for the route which will give you an idea of what you will see along the way. You can also play around with the route using the stopover function if you want to go some way that is more scenic than fast.

I'll be another voice opposing overnight trains. I took my last one in Italy in 2009 and will never do it again. I'd much rather see what there is to be seen along the train route or fly if I don't care about that for some reason.

WWll sites - London offers a large selection of WW ll historical locations. To support your justification for Paris consider tours to the D-day beaches. Keep in mind most WW ll locations in Germany were bombed to destruction and what you see today is reconstruction.

When we traveled to Europe 2 years ago I booked our flights through British Airways. They had an option for an extended layover (or something similarly worded). For an additional smallish fee ($50?) we were able to fly from the US to Heathrow, get off, spend a few days in London and then fly from London to Paris and then return home from Paris. It ended up being a more inexpensive way to get between London and Paris.

I also agree with a previous poster. I love spending time in grocery stores. I brought back nutella in cute glass cups to give out as souvenirs.

Thanks. I'm leaning towards the itinerary Ken proposed. I planned something similar except without the stop over in Switzerland and instead just doing one of the more scenic train rides traveling through to Italy. My fiance is still set on Berlin, but he can't tell me exactly what it is he wants to see there, so I told him he needs to do some research on Berlin, Munich, and Normandy before we make any final decisions. I've done the research, but I'm going to make him do some leg work if he really wants it (too bad this forum doesn't give marital advice too, lol.

There are lot of things we would like to see in and around London: Globe Theater, British Library, British Museum, Westminster Abbey, Buckingham Palace, Changing of the Guard, Speaker's Corner, London Eye, London Tower, Big Ben, trip to the Stonehedge.... I could go on and on, but I don't plan on being able to do it all this trip, and we really don't want to spend the whole time in museums and on tours even if they are all things we would like to see one day. In Venice it is more about experiencing the culture, food, canals, etc., and we could do a shorter trip there. I know there is a lot to see in Rome, but we really want to see the Colosseum and the Vatican. It would be a good trip to Rome even if that is all we saw.

hollypacker,

A few further comments.....

It would help if your fiancé could elaborate on his preference for Berlin over Munich. Both cities have some historic sights that are similar, and both have some that are unique. For example....

• Concentration Camps: Munich has Dachau while Berlin has Sachsenhausen.
• Munich was where the Nazi party originated, so there are some significant sights associated with that.
• There are some sights close to Munich that are interesting, such as Berchtesgaden (Eagle's Nest, Dokumentation Centre and Bunkers).
• Berlin also has some unique sights, such as the Bendler Block on Stauffenbergstrasse, and the Topography of Terror Museum which is close to the former Luftwaffe headquarters. The former Gestapo headquarters is also in that area, but there's not much left of it but some bricks from the foundation so not much to see.
• Berlin offers a chance to visit the site of the Wannsee Conference of 1942.
• Berlin has the remnants of the Wall, Checkpoint Charlie (VERY touristy!) and other cold war sights.

The Itinerary I suggested earlier "flows" reasonably well (IMO) and allows you to cover many of the sites you had on your original list. If you decide to substitute Berlin for Munich, you'll have to skip the Swiss Alps (and of course Munich) and use more of your very limited time for travel.

If you drop the Switzerland and Munich portions of the Itinerary I suggested, you could use budget flights from Paris to Berlin and then from Berlin to Venice. I haven't checked the flight options on those routes, but there should be budget flights available. While the flights may only be a few hours each, they will in reality require the better part of a day each, once all is considered (travel to & from airports, check-in, security, waiting times, collecting luggage, etc.). However, the flight travel times would be offset to some degree by not requiring the rail trips from Paris to Switzerland and then Switzerland to Munich. I always prefer taking the train whenever possible as it's a much more pleasant travel experience to the usual airport hassles, and the rail trips I listed were reasonable.

Once you've made a definite decision on which cities you'll be visiting, I'm sure the group will be able to help with specific details such as hotel recommendations, travel within cities, sights to see, etc.

Good luck with your planning!

Congratulations! You've received excellent advice Holly - one thing to consider is how much energy you and your fiance will have for this trip - if your honeymoon follows on the heels of your wedding, gadding about from country to country (and all the adaptations that entails for first time travelers) may not be the best prescription for starting your married life. Travel of this sort, while exciting, can also be exhausting - especially if you don't have any experience with european travel. With a trip of 18 days I would highly suggest building in 1 or 2 "rest" days - and days spent on the train/plane don't count! To provide some context, we just returned from 18 days in Italy - we were in Rome, Florence, Venice and Milan - it was a fabulous trip but by the end we were all tired - and we are seasoned european travellers!!!

My only comment is that you stated you wanted to do a few 'non-touristy things' yet you have chosen the most famous tourist destinations in all of Europe. While there are some off beat things to do in these large cities when I think of non touristy things I usually thing of less touristy destinations... you have an itinerary of nothing but big, busy cities, so unless you add some day trips you are visiting only cities. I would suggest after your time in Paris renting a car and driving about the countryside and spend some time in the north of France and take that time to visit the D-Day beaches, or as someone else has suggested spend some time in the beautiful villages in the south of France in provence. I think a mix of countryside and city would give you a more romantic and fun trip.

Does anyone know anything about the ILA Berlin Air Show that is happening May 20th - May 25th? I'm fairly certain that I lost the argument for Munich after Mike saw that was happening, but we haven't made any final decisions yet. We were hoping to do more day trips away from the major cities, but it is very hard going for the first time and imagining skipping over the major sites. Although Paris and Venice are touristy cities, we are willing to forgo more of the tourist sites in those cities to just relax and just enjoy the culture.

holly,

The ILA Berlin Air Show will probably be packed, and one concern could be getting a hotel room as there will likely be a LOT of people in town for that show.

I gather that the decision for Berlin (rather than Munich) has more-or-less been finalized then? I haven't checked flights on that route, but you'll probably need to book them SOON to get the best prices.

After much discussion, we've decided to focus on London, Paris (with a day trip to Normandy), Venice, and Rome. I'm going to work on an itinerary of everything we want to do in each of those cities, including rest days, and then if we have extra time we may try to squeeze in a city in another country, but more likely we will just focus on day trips to different cities. I can't thank you guys enough for all of your help.

If you are planning Normandy earlyjune, it is a great anniversary so maybe not be able to book a tour, just something to think about.

Hi,

Great that you're going to Berlin. As to your fiance's desire to see Berlin (something I completely agree with) and some WW II sites, how much time is he willing to devote to this? What type of esoteric sites does he want to visit?

Aside from suggestions made above such as the Resistance Museum and Wannsee, within the city are other esoteric sites connected with the war, such as in Berlin-Karlshorst where the Germans surrendered to the Soviets a day after they did to the Allies, that building is a museum on German-Russian relations and covers the war in the East. The last time I thoroughly visited the museum was in 2001, everything was in German, no audioguides back then, which I would believe is no longer the case. Another horrendous poignant site is the memorial Gedenkstätte Plötzensee where those in the Resistance, some of whose photos you see in the museum on Stauffenbergstraße, were executed.

For the military sights go outside of Berlin to Seelow, reachable by regional train from Berlin Hbf., where the battle began. At Seelow is the memorial cemetery and the Museum. The Luftwaffe Museum in the area of Berlin-Gatow isn't worth it if you're pursuing WW II planes. In Berlin-Pankow and Treptow are the huge Soviet memorials and cemeteries because of the battle. From Berlin Hbf. a 25 min or so along Invalidenstrasse (exit of the station) to Scharnhorststrasse is a large and old military cemetery that has a WW II victime area.

You'll be in London? To see WW II planes go to the Imperial War Museum and the RAF Museum in north London, the Tube stop is Colindale, both museums display German, British, US planes, more authentically compared to those in German museums.

Thanks, Fred. At this point we are focusing on planning our time in London, Paris, Rome, and Venice. Once we have figured out how much time we need to see everything there, we are going to see if there is time to squeeze in either Berlin or Munich. If we have limited time, we may just focus on day trips from the cities we are already in, but seeing Germany is a priority if we can do it without rushing.

Does anyone have any suggestions on whether we should start in London and work are way down or Rome and work our way up? I've been thinking London would be best, since we are not experienced travelers, but from what I have read the weather will be more in our favor if we start in Rome. We are planning on leaving around mid-May.

Also, thanks for the tip on the Imperial Museum. It was not on my list, because we are trying to avoid spending too much of our trip in museums, but my fiance will absolutely love seeing WWII planes.

If budget is a factor, try pricing it both ways. I think you may find it's less expensive to fly into London than it is to fly out of it. Additionally, you may get off to a better start by easing into your trip in an English speaking country. Rome is very busy and chaotic and to start there will be more of a culture shock. With only an 18 day trip, weather isn't really going to change that much.

Just wanted to say a big yes! to the Imperial War Museum in London. It's definitely worth the time to see it, especially if your fiancé is interested in WWII history. My husband and I loved it, it ended up being the only museum we went to in London.

Quality, not Quantity. Otherwise you will return home with lots of pictures and few real memories. You have already received some really good advice about more time in a few places and I won't be redundant here. To be brief, as Rick says "assume you will return". Since your previous trips have been planned by others you will find that you have overlooked something or someplace, may lose your guidebook with all your notes or simply have not allowed enough time for serendipity....that sudden urge to go down a curious looking street just to see what is there. How do I know this? Personal experience. I did all of those things even though I had good advice from the folks on the TH along with Rick's guide books and DVDs. Think of it this way. IT'S YOUR HONEYMOON!! These are memories you will share for a lifetime, so don't waste a lot of time on trains, busses and in taxis just to see it all in one visit. Use this trip as the model (learning experience) for many to come because I assure you that about halfway through your trip you will begin thinking and talking about the next one. Congrats on your marriage and have a great trip.

Holly,

My suggestion would be to start in London and end in Rome. Not only does Rome make a fantastic "grand finale" for your trip, where you can truly enjoy La Dolce Vita and Il dolce far niente at the end of your wonderful honeymoon. Also, you indicated that you're "not experienced travellers" so it will be less of a "culture shock" that way.

The basic Itinerary I suggested earlier should still work, with a few "tweaks". Since you're skipping the Switzerland portion, travel directly from Paris to Munich and then continue to Venice. It should still work, but I'd need to spend a few minutes looking at the transportation connections.

hollypacker,

You're welcome for the tip. It's possible that you might have to choose between the Imperial War Museum or RAF Museum at Colindale given a possible time constraint. Say, you do manage to "squeeze in either Berlin or Munich" I suggest going to Deutsches Museum, the planes section. Compared to what is on display as regards to German WW II planes, your fiance will pick up on the immediate difference between those he sees in Munich versus those he sees in London. In London it's real, whereas in Munich it's "sanitized."

If he wants to see on display the jet engine taken apart in the first operational German jet fighter, go to Colindale, the Imperial War Musem doesn't have it, and Deutsches Museum only has the plane displayed.

The Imperial War Museum is closed until July for extensive remodelling, including a complete new gallary on the first world war for the centenary.

Thanks for this piece of information, good to know.

Hollypacker, congratulations on your upcoming wedding. You have clearly put a lot of thought into this, as I'm sure you have with your wedding. I whole-heartedly agree with taking the locations down to where you said in the end. We honeymooned in Italy after our wedding. I never slept the entire night before the wedding, or pretty much for the next 4 nights. (even with a sleeping pill) So, if you're traveling right after the wedding, keep in mind the wedding alone will make you exhausted. We only did 4 locations within Italy, and I was tired. We had a lovely trip though. My husband planned a surprise event in every city. The romance part of this trip is very important, the strolling around arm-in-arm/hand-in-hand are some of the memories you will keep. Here are the areas noted above I will second, and added a couple others:
1. Travel light. Don't worry about too many fancy outfits. Bring stuff that packs well and wear the right shoes. Most everywhere you will go has cobblestone streets. Merrell shoes to the rescue! (or the like)
2. Rome. You must cover your knees in many churches or you will be made to wear some plastic cover-up, for your shoulders too. A couple 3/4 length skirts and thin sweaters will do the trick and come in handy with the rest of your mix/match wardrobe. If you are catholic, look into getting your marriage blessed by the Pope! (key is bringing your wedding attire though!!)
3. Normandy. Went there 2 years ago and still "feel" it. If the war scene is important, it would be an error to miss Normandy.
4. I agree with overnight trains too. Did it once, now we try not to do it.
5. South of France, you can't go wrong with downtime in Provence, Avignon, etc. Also, north of France in Epperney(sp?) is where Dom is made - a great tour.
6. Learn a little language for the areas you are visiting. Don't worry about it being remotely close to perfect. Every country likes that you try.
7. One of the surprises in Florence for us was meeting a Cordon Bleu chef at the market, purchasing items, returning to her home and the 3 of us preparing a fabulous meal, with many wine pairings, together. So cool!
8. The biggest mistake you could make is if you didn't enjoy yourself. Relax, take it in, people-watch, and eat pasta in Italy... it's so much better than in the states. Oh and their tomatoes? They really are a fruit afterall!
9. When you return to Europe another trip, do Germany then... but focus a lot on Bavaria too - you must see Hitler's Eagle's Next, Salzburg (Austria), etc.
This will come together! What lovely people everyone above has been for you!!

Lori, I've actually spent way more time planning the honeymoon than the wedding! I think I'm driving my mom a little crazy.

We did finalize our itinerary. We had originally agreed to cut out Germany, but when we went to buy our plane tickets, all of the flights home had layovers in Germany. Long story short, I broke down and made it a very extended layover. I know this itinerary is a little hectic, but we couldn't be more excited and we're hoping that adrenaline will serve us well.

The plan is:

Day 1: Arrive in London 10:00 a.m.
Day 2: London
Day 3: London
Day 4: London
Day 5: Take a train to Paris arriving around 14:00
Day 6: Paris
Day 7: Paris/ day trip to Normandy
Day 8: Paris
Day 9: All day train travel to Venice
Day 10: Venice
Day 11: Venice
Day 12: Take a train to Rome arriving around 14:00
Day 13: Rome
Day 14: Rome
Day 15th: Flight from Rome leaving around 17:00 and arriving in Munich around 21:40
Day 16th: Munich
Day 17th: Munich
Day 18th: Munich
Day 19th: Fly home

I also looked at doing the same trip with Munich after Paris, but it didn't really save us any travel time and got us back in the U.S. much later on the 19th day. My poor future husband has to work the day after we get home, so I'm trying to at least get him home as early as possible on the day we return.

I have been to all cities below except Munich and my favourite is London because it is an exciting City with history, theatre, museums, art, and anything else you might want. I think you are trying to do too much but if your heart is set on seeing all these cities, then go for it! You might want to take a look at www.walks.com for your London portion of the trip. These are guided walking tours and I recall doing one which encompassed all the main sites such as Westminster Abbey, St Paul's Cathedral, Big Ben. I have done many of these and the day tour for these sites would be a great way to spend the day. You do not need to book ahead - just show up at the subway station from which the walking tour starts. Be sure to check out London theatre. It is amazing. There is only one official half-price ticket booth in Leicester square. Although you will see many signs around Central London indicating that tickets are half price, please ignore them as ticket agents in London can legally charge a commission up to a maximum.

holly,

It sounds like the arrangements are starting to get sorted and your last Itinerary looks quite workable.

One point I wanted to clarify though is your plans for a "Paris/ day trip to Normandy". How were you planning to do that and what are you hoping to see in Normandy? That will be a LONG day and you'll only have time for a brief look at some of the historic sites.

Instead of spending an entire day on a train, I'd suggest flying from Paris to Venice. You should be able to get a flight for under $100. This will save you both time and money.

Ken is right about Normandy, especially as you said trip will be may or June, if June the 70th anniversary is going on the so sights maybe not accessible. Would personally stick to Paris, so much to see and do. For what it is worth, my son and wife had four days in Paris for part of honeymoon and their favorite memories were sitting on steps of Sacre Couer and In park by Eiffel tower with fresh bread, cheese and glass of wine. They said better than any museums.whatever you do, enjoy and you will be back to Europe.

Pls update us on how the trip went for you. Pls pls pls allow time for some drinks at an outdoor table to watch humanity flow by. Good luck to your husband on being functional on his first day of work!
Most important, relax and have fun!

Hollypacker,

Good that you those days reserved for London. Since the Imperial War Museum is closed until July, two other places I can suggest that I am sure your fiance will see as time well spent: The Tank Museum at Bovington and the RAF Museum at Duxford. Both are massive, (massive in tanks and planes), very doable by public transportation from London but it's long day and return , but....

If your stay in London allows for only one of these two side trips, all the better. You need at least a week in London to take in both of these places.

For WWII in London, try the Churchill War Rooms. V v v real, authentic, atmospheric, and it's located in the heart of the city so you can maximise your time and see other things on that day too.

If you're going to South Kensington for the museums (V&A, Natural History, Science) look for the bomb damage that's been left as a memorial on the exterior of the V&A on Exhibition Road. Seeing the actual damage made the war that much more real for us.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/v-and-a-at-war-1939-45/

When we went to Paris, my SO and I took one of our 4 days and did a day trip to the champagne country. We were able to see the vineyards, meet a local producer, tour the caves at Tattinger, and have lots of lovely samples. That plus lunch at Jules Verne up the Eiffel Tower were the absolute highlights of our limited time there. http://www.parischampagnetour.com/

Thank you for the tips. My fiance wants to go to Normandy. I have a feeling this is a check the bucket list kind of activity, as he has been pretty vague on what he wants to see other than "WWII stuff".... but he has asked for very little on this trip, so I'm trying to humor him. I was considering doing a flight from Paris to Venice, but I have been reading that the train ride is very scenic and more enjoyable. Is the train ride worth it? Are we better off taking a plane? We weren't planning on doing the route through Switzerland due to time, but I read the direct train to Milan is still a scenic route.

Hi Holly,
At the minimum taking a train from Paris to Venice would take 11 hours. It could take on the upside of 13. That wouldn't be worth it to me. I would much rather fly between those two cities, than waste a day taking a train between. I love train travel! I have done some long trips, but when you are a little pressed for time I think more time in Venice or Paris will be a greater advantage than seeing the scenery from the train.

Holly, I have to agree, with all that you are trying to do, I strongly encourage you to fly from Paris to Venice and not take the train. I LOVE train travel, but I think you need to save the little bit of time you have. As someone stated above, please update us when you return. I actually came to this site to see what you decided on. I think we are all a little excited for your trip!