Need to slim a crazy itinerary... what to cut down

I am surprised that Barcelona flights are so much cheaper than other destinations. Have you checked prices flying into Barcelona, and out of another city in Europe? They might be very similar.

With a tight budget, I would skip the most expensive cities: Copenhagen and London in particular. Paris is expensive too but I am too biased to suggest you skip it.
If you skip London, you might as well skip Edinburgh and Dublin and reserve the British isles for a future trip.

What's left, you'll ask me?
Well, Paris needs 4 nights/ 3 full days as a minimum, and Prague really deserves a 3rd night.
Then if Prague appeals so much to your son, perhaps other nearby cities would appeal? How about Vienna for instance? Dresden? Berlin? Salzburg?
One (or 2 at a stretch) of those would fit in better than trying to criss-cross all of western Europe.

Also, regarding Belgium, you do not need two bases. Brussels works, but basing yourself in G(h)ent could be even more efficient.

The routing could therefore become:

1. Barcelona if you can't change that
2. Paris (fly or train from Barcelona)
3. Brussels or Gent (train from Paris)
4. Vienna (fly)
5. Salzburg (train)
6. Prague (train), and see if you can fly out of Prague

Still more countries than I would like, but more manageable.
My real advice here, is that you really can't have more than 5 stops on top of Barcelona. And 4 would be better still.

If you really look at your itinerary, you have basically one, maybe one and a half days in each city.

Why are you thinking this is a once is a lifetime opportunity. He's 17.

The obvious place, geographically, is Prague. Next I would cut out Dublin. Add those days to other places.

Look into "Open Jaw" flights. That's flying into one city and flying home from another. Use the multi-city option when looking at schedules and tickets. Not one way. This might save you some time flying back to Spain. And remember when comparing prices think of what you will save not having to fly back to Spain.

Yes agreed, this is an insane itinerary and you will be miserable I think, especially with the flying. Train is SO much easier IMO.

First, it won't be a once in a lifetime I bet. Just choose 3, maybe 4 places, and save the rest. You and he can go back.

I like 3 nights per place, minimum, maybe a 2 thrown in occasionally if other stays are longer. In 17 days I would choose probably 4 places, maybe a quick 5th stop, and I would REALLY want them to connect via train (4 hours ok, 6 is my MAX) vs. flying (though I would allow maybe 1 to be a flight).

I would see how much are you really saving by flying to Barcelona... is it worth it? And if you are flying there for sure, I would make that one of the stops - Barcelona is a great city! If not, I would not fly there, it can't be cheap enough.

First cut out all of England, Scotland, Ireland... or focus on that only. You could start in London though, it's an easy land for a first trip, then train to Paris or Brussels. Maybe Amsterdam? I would be looking for places I can get on train. You could fly once over to Prague, you could also train to Berlin or Vienna from there...

Copenhagen too far out of the way, save for later.

I think you need to sit back down with the plan - maybe pick #1 place, and then choose places around it? Or skip #1, if #2,3,4 are closer to each other... but please please don't do this plan, you will be exhausted and miss so much...

Happy planning! It's one of the most fun parts to me!

The advice given to many on this forum also applies to your trip - to minimise stressing about forever changing Covid protocols, stick to ideally 2 countries maximum 3 at a push.

Under 100 (euros or dollars?) a night is going to be a big ask even in your cheaper locations in September, which is shoulder season most places. Significantly reducing the number of locations would reduce your travel budget, giving you some wriggle room on the accommodation costs.

Either make this a Spain and U.K./Ireland trip or Spain, France and Belgium trip. Seventeen days isn’t very long for either itinerary. Accommodation in London maybe more expensive (try the Premier Inn chain), but there is free entry into most museums and galleries, which can save you a fortune compared with other cities - eg it’s €17 for you to get into the Louvre in Paris.

Brussels is my least favourite capital in Europe, but Bruges and Ghent are more interesting.

Keep checking air fares as having to back track to Spain is going to lose a day at each end of the trip and have a financial implication, particularly if it’s not somewhere you really want to visit.

Under 100 (euros or dollars?) a night is going to be a big ask even in your cheaper locations in September,

And in Paris, September is the single most expensive month for lodging.

At least you understand this is a crazy itinerary. You really should look at flights to other cities than Barcelona, as that is a long way from all other stops. And September is still a long way away so better offers could show up.

And yes, removing Prague would be the obvious choice, and after that Dublin. Come to think about it, removing Edinburgh and London will also save you a lot of time. And as much as I love Copenhagen, it is also a bit of an outlier.

I'll echo others. In pre-covid times, I regularly traveled with teens, many of whom were going to Europe for the first time. I like to shift perspective from "once-in-a-lifetime trip" to "your FIRST trip abroad." If the two of you look at your itinerary and instead consider what you'd like to see together on his first trip abroad, it might be easier to cut some destinations, because you're not framing it as "you might never see this city." It takes a lot of pressure off making the trip include everything and allows the two of you to focus on how you can best share this experience. Cutting it back to a few locations might also help with finding cheaper lodging options, because you might find places with discounts for multi-night stays. You might even look at hostels, some of which have private rooms.

@balso
Thank you so much... what a creative and thoughtful reply! Insightful advice! 100% agree about Belgium right off the bat. I don't think we would have moved sleeping locations there anyhow.

As far as flights, "checked" is an understatement. I've been tracking flights for over 6 months with price alerts to Europe and have also used google flights extensively to move the map around. It must be that we are coming from Pittsburgh (no super convenient alternative airports that offer more international options). In any case Barcelona and Madrid (nowhere else- I've literally gone through and checked over 60 European airports) is holding just about 300 USD, which is insane and unlikely to dip any lower or be matched by another destination.

@Frank II.

I sure hope it's not once in a lifetime, but I went to Europe once at his age and it took me over 20 years to get back. I don't want to get into all that (and you don't want me to either, lol), but unless his situation changes or he gets very creative, it's going to be a while. I'm paying for this trip from (literally) under my mattress and from a couple of family members (who aren't exactly loaded).

I have looked extensively at Multi-City options. Changing endless combinations and days. I will keep watching, but the likelihood of getting anything like that under 5-6 hundred is very small and Barcelona is a mere 300 right now. A flight back to Spain from most of the locations he has is $30-50 using budget lines.

@Kim
Right?! Isn't planning fun? Contrary to the teenage-produced monstrosity of an itinerary, I, myself, am actually a detailed and practical planner, with some flights of fancy. (See above replies about Barcelona)

I think you are right about doing mainly UK/Ireland or the other stuff. That's part of why I posted for advice. Not having been to these cities, I can read all the travel articles in the world, but rarely do they speak to the concerns of your average traveler. It's so hard to know what will be the most interesting and inspiring to him.

@Jennifer
We are ok with using airbnb and similar options (with careful monitoring of the reviews about easy check in/out). We are ok with hostels, but they don't necessarily provide much budget relief because of how popular they've become but also, because he is a minor, a lot require we book a "family" room, which is at least as pricey as a cheaper hotel.

The tickets into things is a very good point. I've already looked some of that up and was definitely surprised how much one could do in London for very little. I'm not sure about the other cities as much... Thankfully, we prefer street/pub food or even just bakery/to go cafe and while we'd love to go into museums and such, most of these locations have a great deal that can be seen for nothing or next to it, especially since we don't mind a lot of walking and looking at architecture, etc...

@Kim
(of Paris). Don't I know it! I'm hoping to average it out to that... after VAT and fees, it's likely to spill over, so I'm speaking strictly to base rate. Do you think that's doable most places if we use alternative resources or keep price alerts on aggregate sites?

@Amy, I agree. I won't be referring to it as once-in-a-lifetime to him. I think half (maybe more!) of what makes a trip amazing is the perspective/attitude of the travelers. Thankfully, he's not saying so much "I'll never get to see it." as "How can we skip this or that when we are so tantalizingly close?!" The furthest he's been from Pittsburgh in his life is Boston! (Also an extremely expensive city and we managed to stay nice places at or under 100 and do lots of free things.)

Thank you, thank you everyone... If anyone has more insights on which particular cities would be good for a first ;) trip to Europe, I'm all ears.

What a great parent. Clearly you love your son dearly and want to give him life-long memories of a great trip (and share the joy with him!). I would gently suggest that there will be more time to create the memories you want to create if you increase the pleasure time (experiencing the people and places of Europe) and decrease the stress time (checking in/out of accommodations, transportation).

I'm taking a 19-year-old on his first trip to Europe in April; he is starting a military college this fall. He only has 9 days to travel because of his job which gives us 7 nights in Europe. Berlin was high on his list. I tried to talk him into 7 nights in Berlin (justifying with slow travel concepts, border crossings in COVID-19 times, etc). He looked at me with puppy dog eyes and said he really wanted to go to Normandy, too. Okay, okay -- didn't want to disappoint the young man, so I went with 3 nights in Normandy, 4 nights in Berlin. Then... he said, "I know we both would love to spend a night in Warsaw!" He is correct! But my response was, "I would love to take you to Warsaw on our next trip to Europe. Maybe we could see Krakow and Gdansk then, too" I could have done something like 2 nights Normandy, 3 nights Berlin, and 2 nights Warsaw, but I felt like we just couldn't see what we needed to see to do all 3 places justice. As a minor note, budget was a factor, too, as the frequent flyer miles I'm using for transatlantic flights didn't work so well on a return trip from Warsaw.

@Dave, thank you for the gracious reply!

My older son is off to Basic Training in a month and I wish I could whisk him away too! I hope you have an amazing trip. It sounds like you have a wonderful relationship and will enjoy it immensely.

With just 17 days, I think you definitely should stay on the continent. Reduce or eliminate your flights in favor of ground travel. Spend more time in the places you do visit.

The most practical and economical itinerary is probably one that connects Paris (5 nights?,) Antwerp,(2?) Brussels (3?) and Prague (5?)

It's a long way to Prague of course but you could make a stopover or two in between. And you probably have a night or two to accomplish that.

Your son studies literary arts... It's about 4 train hours from Brussels to the Rhine city of Koblenz. I'd suggest a night there and then an outing the next day to see what the Rhine Romantics (which included Heinrich Heine, Clemens Brentano, and Goethe, Germany's most revered author) were all excited about.

Brussels > Koblenz morning train (about 3 hours) for one night there.
- Lv. Brussels Midi 8:23 > Koblenz Hbf 11:46
- afternoon train outing of 10 min. to Marksburg Castle tour + meal in nearby Braubach.

The next day it's Koblenz > CZ

• Morning Rhine Cruise past old-world towns, vineyards, and Loreley cliffs to Assmannshausen (ar. 12:30)
• 12:48 Train from A'hausen to Nuremberg (16:47) or continue to Cheb (CZ) (18:22) for one night.

I think you have probably overestimated the expense of train travel. The above train journey over the 2 days from Brussels to Cheb is available on one saver fare ticket for just €39.90 each at DB (German Railways) for the sample date in May that I checked. I used the following parameters:

• stopover time in Koblenz of 24 hrs
• second stopover in Assmannshausen of 00:00 hrs.

(If this interests you, I can fill you in on the other essential cruise and train journey details.)

Buy tickets from DB well in advance, and the prices are usually very low.

Note: If you prefer to continue that same night beyond Cheb to Prague (ar. 21:21) you could do that segment on a separate CZ ticket. Check with the CZ railways site. If you overnight in Nuremberg, you can probably find a ticket to Prague on both the CZ and the DB site.

As an excited newbie to Europe travel (but not to travel or lots of flying or long trips) Dublin and Belgium would be prime candidates to cut out. maybe even Copenhagen? Barca Prague London Paris Edinburgh (followed by Copenhagen) sounds amazing. It gives flavor to the top variety in Europe.

I feel with so much airports, changing hotels and a new huge city each day, by day 12 you will be whopped. it may all be a daze. (Tours do it but someone else is managing logistics there. Here, both of you need to have your a game on thru out the trip). But it’s doable and will be a story to tell. Hit the top sights and move on. (Andy Steves has a book with 3 day itineraries for most of these cities. May help you plan)

I agree with others that taking the train wherever possible (may be an overnight one for experience) will be easier than the airport drag. Of course if it fits your schedule and budget and booking skills!

Pack light!! (Besides the weight, I noticed it’s easier on the brain)

Agreeing with all (and yourself) ... way to much. You'll need at least a half day just getting to and from airports ... and getting up at 0-dark thirty to get to the airport several hours ahead of departure will get old real fast ... too much wasted time ... take trains that drop you right in the middle of the action in the big cities ... and if possible, stay at places near the train station (considering the price and neighborhood) to save more time for the reason you came. Maybe consider this ... Barcelona to either Dublin or Edinburgh ... then onto London for a 3 days ... take Eurostar through the chunnel to Paris for a 3 days ... train to Brussels and Antwerp ... then, depending on schedules, either train or fly to Copenhagen or Prague (if it were me, I would pick Prague) ... then back to Barcelona and home. Sounds like a great time, my best trip ever was a 2+week Munich/Prague/Vienna/Ljubljana/Venice/Munich by car with wife and 2 college-age daughters ... they're both off on their own now, with the younger one catching the travel bug from her parents (she's been to Everest base camp, Doha, Morocco, Jerusalem, Petra, London, Paris, Madrid, Salamanca, Rome, Greece, Santorini, Turkey, Edinburgh, Lima, Machu Picchu, Rio de Janeiro (Carnivale), Puerto Rico ... not to mention all over the US) ... and the trip planner in me really wants to open up a new spreadsheet and get to planning.

I would definitely take out Brussels and Ireland. London is near the top of my list for must-see cities in Europe(after Florence and Rome and yes ahead of Paris).

Phew! Such thoughtful advice and so much to think about!
@Russ- Do you professionally advise for travel? The specificity is so helpful and Koblenz is now on my wishlist when it wasn't really on our radar for this trip.

Reading all your advice, it seems that the UK and Ireland should be its own thing at its own pace. Maybe focusing on a trip full of culture that appeals to a history-loving young person could look like this?

Stockholm, Copenhagen, Amsterdam or Koblenz
OR
Copenhagen, Berlin, Prague
Trying to think more geographically here... maybe another combo makes more sense? Lose one of these and fit in Lucerne somehow?

I'd have to pay a significant increase to fly into one of those starting points, but they are less than the other options. (Surprisingly, Amsterdam is more expensive than most.). I could reduce the cost quite a bit by still flying out of Barcelona for departure.

(May have to be annoying and start a new thread so people don't have to make it this far, lol.)

Please don't start a new thread, it will confuse us!
And avoid Switzerland on a tight budget. It is significantly more expensive than the rest of Europe.

Ooh I love the idea of Copenhagen, Berlin, Prague!! That's a great combo!

We did something similar one summer, we started in Copenhagen (some cool stuff, Tivoli,. cool viking museum and boat ride up north a bit), took the ferry across and stayed in Rostock (we had a home exchange there - you could always stop for a day or two at the beach), then we day tripped to Berlin on the way to Nuremberg (only because we had been to Berlin prior, what an awesome place for history, so wonderful there!!! WWII and Berlin wall... fascinating stuff). You could then head to Prague. After that, you could go to Vienna or Munich. Those are all do-able train trips... sometimes when it's like 6 hours, we will do a long layover stop of 3-4 hours or more and stop and explore somewhere along the way.

Here a couple of my travel blogs from those trips (though Berlin/Prague/Vienna was in winter):
https://onatangentweb.wordpress.com/category/copenhagen-germany-2018/
https://onatangentweb.wordpress.com/category/christmas-markets-2016/

Happy planning! I think you are on the right track!

Maybe focusing on a trip full of culture that appeals to a
history-loving young person could look like this? Stockholm,
Copenhagen, Amsterdam or Koblenz OR Copenhagen, Berlin, Prague Trying
to think more geographically here... maybe another combo makes more
sense? Lose one of these and fit in Lucerne somehow?

Those can certainly be good options, but is there any certain historical periods the young person is interested in?

Checking, yes Barcelona (and Madrid) are the only cities that cheap, and frankly less than $400 with good timings to Europe is sensational so I would just buy them now.

@badger He was super into early American history when he was little, then ancient civilizations (all the "firsts"), but in high school he's been more interested in government, especially how similar the power dynamics can be after a thousand years of progress. The past few weeks he's been chatty on the social and political development that lead to societies different from the US.

ETA : He loves things that appeal to humor and wit. He is not overly cynical... still very much able to be awed. He will be most captivated by the very grand and by the little things. The stuff in-between may not interest him as much so... Castles, Cathedrals and Cobblestones? Stunning Sights and Secret Spots? Visceral Vistas and Vanishing Villages? Massive Modern Monoliths and Modest Magical Moments?

@Tom_MN Do you think it's worth it to pay another $175 per ticket to start (or end) in a desired destination? I'm just unsure. $350 could go a long way...

I looked at open jaws, any other city was $300 more. So either grab the cheap Barcelona fare RT or just pay for the cities that work best. Typically shoulder season from a non-competitive market like Pittsburgh I’d expect to see in the $900-$1100 range.

Actually just Spain is a great trip, lots to do, easy to fill 17 days, so much history. And compared to London or Amsterdam it would be about half the daily cost.

It’s hard to go to Europe and be close to many countries but only see one, at least for a new traveler. Experienced travelers know that a lot of bopping around wastes time and money.

You could do a Spain trip so cheaply in 2022 that you go visit Europe again in 2023.

@Tom_MN, I'm sure you are correct. I think we could probably have an amazing time in Spain and maybe even better than the alternative in some ways since we don't have a bucket list and could just explore. But that assumes he can stop thinking about what he's "missing" and that he's still as excited to go-- both of us really. Sometimes, burning off some enthusiasm is required. Perhaps booking the inexpensive tickets now and letting the itinerary plans simmer for a few weeks could help.

I know that plenty of people, many with great limitations, value travel and make it happen, so I can't say that my personal limitations are the sole reason we have not been able to travel internationally and most likely will not be able to in the foreseeable future, but I have been at the mercy of someone else's financial decisions and will continue to be in that position. It has felt irresponsible to travel when the basics haven't been covered, but we recently lost some loved ones who always thought they'd go more places and we're in a very "life is short" frame of mind. We've gotten quite creative to fund this trip and the one I will take with my daughters, so I'm hopeful I can pull it off again, but not counting on it.

You read like a great Mom, and I love that you are so very concerned about showing your son "all of It"! But I agree with everyone here-narrow it to maybe one flight-one must always consider all the time it takes to get to the airport and then to your destination, as well as any delays that might occur. This could eat up very valuable sightseeing time. I believe your son will not think he is missing a thing, once you both have your feet on the European ground! He will be excited, awe struck by the sights and sounds, and everything will be new! I always say, if I only had a flight, and a hotel and no other plans but to walk and see, I could be more than ecstatic! I too believe that under $100 and night will be tough, but with some incredible hostels available, it is doable. Street food is always wonderful, and gives you a more local feel. September is a lovely time to travel, the nights are long, which extends sightseeing days, and gives way to eating outside in many venues. You have been given some solid advice from the above posters, and remember, the purpose of this trip is to be with your son, give you both an amazing experience, and just be and experience each moment. Have a ball!

OP... The more I read, the more I like you! I'm proud of you for saving under the mattress for this special trip. The flight into Barcelona makes more sense now, too. I like the idea of a more regional trip. I will throw out one more idea for helping with costs. I often schedule smaller locales in between big cities. Those locales are still places I want to go, but they can help bring down the average cost of lodging for a trip. It helps that I really like hiking, so that opens up a lot of nature places for me (and a lot of low to no cost activities). Of course, one can easily say, "I can hike at home." That's a reasonable position.

I have done a lot of two-ticket flight itineraries to destinations in Europe (i,e. itineraries like US to Paris where first ticket is for US to Barcelona and a separate second ticket covers Barcelona to Paris). Since it sounds like you are on a bit of a shoe-string budget, I will offer a few thoughts (though you may already know these):

• The airline that issues the second ticket is under no obligation to get you to your final destination if you miss your flight due to a delay on the first ticket's flights (even if the two tickets are issued by the same airline). So, if you arrive in Barcelona too late to make your Barcelona to next city flight, you may have to pay the pricey "walk up" fare for the next flight that can get you to your planned destination.
• You want a big cushion between flights on the first and second tickets just in case there are delays on the first ticket flight(s). I usually have at least 4 hours between such flights. I will add that it would not be economically crushing to me if I had to buy a walk up priced fare, so 4 hours is a reasonable gamble for me. You may want more time to build in a little more insurance against delays. Some people build in a full day between flights.
• If your flight out of Barcelona back to the US leaves in the morning, I would probably try to get back to Barcelona the day before the flight just to try to make sure that I made that morning flight. I don't think I would risk an early morning departure from another European city, especially if it caused a tight connection.

I have never missed a flight with my 4-hour minimum rule. I will employ that rule on the trip mentioned in my first post. For our return to the US, the frequent flyer miles price for Frankfurt to my home airport was quite low; the miles price was quite a bit higher for Berlin. Admittedly, I am violating my own recommendation above by taking the first Berlin to Frankfurt flight of the day on the day of departure for the US BUT (1) the Berlin to Frankfurt flight is on Lufthansa, which is operationally sound, (2) it's a short flight (about 1 hour), (3) my flight back to the States does not leave until almost noon, and (4) it would not be an economic hardship for me if I somehow missed the Delta flight and had to pay a walk-up fare to get home (though I wouldn't like it).

@Russ- Do you professionally advise for travel? The specificity is so
helpful and Koblenz is now on my wishlist when it wasn't really on our
radar for this trip.

I'm uncomfortable offering tips and advice without attaching a few specifics. Glad they were helpful. No, this isn't a job for me.

I am not convinced that choosing destinations based mainly on connecting your son's interests in history, politics, etc. is necessarily going to produce an enjoyable and memorable trip for the two of you. If Prague is hugely important in his eyes, as you say, sure, go with that. But it's not just the grand European destinations that always matter so much, and the sort-of-quirky things that are followed by question marks in your passage on him can often be better explored in smaller places.

He loves things that appeal to humor and wit... Castles, Cathedrals and Cobblestones?
Stunning Sights and Secret Spots? Visceral Vistas and Vanishing
Villages? Massive Modern Monoliths and Modest Magical Moments?

Trying to think more geographically here...

This is a wise approach. The number of moves you make, the distances you travel, and the WAY you get around can all have big economic consequences. And your budget is snug. I'll offer some rules of thumb, based mainly on my own travel experiences in/from/to Germany, with examples I happen to have at hand... maybe they hold true in other countries as well...

1) Longer B&B / apartment stays (3-4+ days) are often discounted, or the establishment turns down short-stay inquiries. Example below for a place in Cochem (on the Mosel River between Koblenz and Trier)

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g198637-d2626931-Reviews-Zum_Froehlichen_Weinberg-Cochem_Rhineland_Palatinate.html

A double for 4 nights runs €60/night (priced €30 p.p.) with further discounts for a week or longer:
https://www.zum-froehlichen-weinberg.de/preise.html
(They've Corona-nixed breakfast. Now there's a shared kitchen with breakfast supplies (coffee, tea, muesli, jam, etc.)

2) Center-city accommodations are usually more expensive than options on the outskirts or outside the city in small towns. Also, "commuter" transport is heavily subsidized and thus affordable - and for tourists, it's sometimes free of charge as an incentive to visit.

Small apt. with mini-kitchen in gorgeous Gengenbach, €40/night for 4 nights. Travel by train for free into Freiburg or the Black Forest on the KONUS Card program.

https://www.traum-ferienwohnungen.de/295734/?arrival=2022-09-13&departure=2022-09-17&persons=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkgzMXQ7blQ

The greater Nuremberg transport area (VGN) is huge and includes dozens of popular destinations (among them Bamberg, Rothenburg, and Bayreuth.) How does unlimited use of all trains, subways, buses, trams, etc., for €22/day / two adults sound? Stay in some little town you've never heard of (Bad Windsheim? Iphofen?) where overnight costs are minimal - and catch a ride of 30-45 minutes to whatever destinations interest you.

https://www.vgn.de/en/tickets/all-day-ticket-plus/

3) Long train journeys (if you have any,) are really cheap if purchased when they first come available. That's 6 months out in the case of German Rail (DB) A couple of years ago booked a rail ticket from Emmerich (German/Dutch border town) to Budapest with a 2-night stopover near Salzburg for €50.

4) Inexpensive day passes for much larger areas are available for travel on regional trains. These allow round trips or multiple trips on a single day, or even long-distance trips, for a set price:

Regional day passes
Bavaria - Bohemia (Bayern - Böhmen) Ticket

Hotel<$100: please consider HoStels - private room with bathrooms are available for <$100 in city center. you can look up location and thousands of reviews on hostelworld. booking.com has the cheapest prices with flexible booking option. like Rick says, if your budget can afford it, staying near city center (esp. with your short trip) will be fantastic - i noticed it to be a gamechanger when i was in Croatia in terms of how it feels (wake up and you are in old town in the midst of most sites... which are walkable! its so different than the suburban US life).

Flights: if you are flying a 1 hour flight from London to Edinburgh is not much different than a 2 hour flight from London to Prague for example. so distances which matter by road don't matter much when flying (though you are changing countries and it will be easier to change countries in schengen zone).

@Dave We think very alike on these matters! I'm all for saving money but I don't want to foolishly gamble. Thank you!

@Russ. Wow, thank you again, so much!

@Jis Ganga. We will for sure look at hostels. If they are noticeably different with a minor in tow, that'll work!

So, I've been playing with google flights and ITA on and off. So far, the best budget option has been in and out of Barcelona for 337, but it looks like I can get into Berlin and out of Barcelona for 415 78.00 seems extremely reasonable to get a lot more range and not worry about missing connections? I feel I'd spend that much money and a lot more time getting in that direction. Berlin is not high on our list, but it's closer to things that are, including some of Russ's suggestions.

(I know, you are impressed at my ability to over-complicate things... What can I say? It's a gift. My defunct aughts blog was called "The Not So Simple Life").

ETA: Now getting 382 into London and out of Barcelona as well.

You mentioned your budget requirements, but have completely ignored the ever-changing covid mandates, which currently often require testing each time you cross borders, and in some areas, repeated testing once you are in country. Testing is rarely free. Unless mandates change, you will need a PCR test to depart the US [around $150 with travel documentation], and antigen testing to return home. Granted, covid mandates can change, but remember to include multiple testing in your budget. For these reason alone, I think you have too many countries. There is also the time-consuming tracker paperwork for most countries.
Read on here on the Forum under each country, to get a feel for what folks who are traveling currently are dealing with to meet specific countries' covid policies.
Safe travels!

@Pat. Yes, testing has been a big concern and if you've found a rapid PCR for 150, you are lucky. It's easy 250 here if you want it guaranteed. (You can roll the dice at urgent care for 150, but if actual urgent cases come in, you are, understandably, left waiting. We can get a free 2-3 day PCR and a free rapid antigen test the day of. I've been assured and reassured by Delta and PIT airport that the rapid test is enough with our fully vaccinated (3 jab) status. I also checked with another traveler (from right here on the forum) who traveled from PIT to EU with a rapid test, no problem.

Tests in most EU countries are around 25 Euros to the best of my ability to tell from online booking sites? Travelers on the ground tell me I will not need a new test at each border if I am inside the EU, but I have checked and will map out places near hotels/train stations, etc, anyhow.

This reminds me of a movie from the 70s, I think it was called "If it is Tuesday, we must be in Belgium."

It was about people on a European tour that hit a lot of countries for not much time.

You have much to learn about European travel.

When you arrive in a city from the airport, just getting to your hotel, checking in, etc. will burn hours, sometimes several hours. The more you travel, especially flying, you will waste more time just getting situated in your new city.

Your itinerary is clearly focused on hitting a lot of places, but this kind of trip will not give you much time anywhere to savor the cities you visit. You won't have time to explore, like going to Paris and seeing the Eiffel Tower and Arch de Triumph and perhaps the outside of the Lourve museum.

Stop and smell the roses, enjoy your trip.
I suggest that you use your 17 days to visit 2, perhaps 3 countries at most.
I have lived in Europe and traveled there a lot, but I still focus on learning about were I am going and getting deep into its soul.
An average 17 day trip for us would involve for example England and Wales only.

Suggest that you stick to England, Wales and Scotland, or perhaps Germany, Chechia and Austria.
Do some research on exactly how you will move from one place to another.

@geovagriffith

Believe it or not, I like to learn about where I am going and focus on the soul of the place as well, but if you want a giggle: I've been (very) slowly learning Italian for over 5 years in anticipation of traveling there. Nonetheless, I'm not remotely conversational at this point. I said what I thought was "I am bringing my daughters with me." in Italian the other day and it translated to something like "I'm carrying your children." Might be better to keep it to "Grazie" and "Ciao", haha!

I can't speak for everyone, but the hit-as-much-as-you-think-you-can approach isn't necessarily (all) silliness or arrogance or sheer consumerism. It's sometimes a natural outcome of a very binary, non-neurotypical approach. The idea of getting into the soul of a place appeals so deeply that, at least for me and several of my siblings and children, we would want to stay for at least a month, to live as much like a local as possible, to research endlessly, etc... (My sister, for instance, after growing frustrated with her growing travel wishlist, is moving to Portugal for a year this April.)

In the absence of that, it is tempting to take in as much as possible and this can actually work well, to a point, for some people on the spectrum or with ADHD, etc... It's easy to get "bored" with something pretty quickly unless you have the opportunity to become completely absorbed.

By the same token, excessive travel details, like multiple flights and many tickets and borders can be difficult to manage for the average person, let alone someone whose brain works in a way that's not standard- another reason to slim things down.

In the end, I think you are right... a balance is best for most people, including myself.

I'd say with 17 days, focus on 3 major cities--4 max--with a day trip or 2. And this is coming from someone who likes to travel fairly quickly.

Barcelona is not my favourite city, but as long as you are there anyway, why not spend 2-3 days? It definitely has some spectacular sights. See the Sagrada Familia, the Gothic quarter, and take a day trip to Montserrat (very easy by train and one of my all time favourite sights in Europe).

Fly or train from Barcelona to Paris. ( If flying, keep in mind that the cheap airlines charge for checked luggage and are VERY strict about the size of carryons.) Spend at least 5 days in Paris.

Fly or train from Paris to Prague. (Train is very long, but I think there may be an overnighter here, which could help save time and accommodation costs.) Give Prague at least 3 days. I'm not sure if it's in your budget, but we hired a driver to take us to a couple of castles on the way to Czesky Krumlov, did an overnight there before heading elsewhere. So, our driver took us to Castle Hluboka (a pretty, storybook castle), Divci Kamen (an atmospheric castle ruin that you can go into), and there's a lovely castle at Czesky Krumlov, too. Prague costs are somewhat less expensive than many other European countries, so this was manageable for us, and the cost of the drive was partly offset by the reasonable cost to stay in Czesky Krumlov.

Train from Prague to Budapest. Your dollar will stretch a lot farther in Budapest than it will in Copenhagen or anywhere in Germany. Give Budapest at least 4 days.

Fly back to Barcelona.

Or. One other thought, to focus on castles:
Spend 2-3 days in Barcelona. Fly from Barcelona to Lisbon. Again, your dollar goes farther in Portugal than in some other European countris, and Lisbon is wonderful. Spend at least 4 days in Portugal. In Lisbon, there is Castelo Sao Jorge. Near Lisbon, a short train ride away, is Sintra, a town that has several castles and castle ruins. (Consider at least 1 night in Sintra to have time to see them--or focus on the "top 3": Pena Palace, the Moorish ruins, and the main castle in the town.) Then fly from there to Paris or Prague (in whichever order seems to work best). Again, at least 5 days in Paris and at least 3 in Prague.

@BB

Thank you, great suggestions... It looks like for $50 more, I can fly into London as long as I still fly out of Barcelona. Or for $87 more, I can get to Berlin as long as... Barcelona.

Seems like a train or flight in the direction of Paris or Prague will take as much money and more time than going to London or Berlin straight away?

Again, just keep in mind that there can be extra costs with those low cost flights. My husband and I are very used to carryon only, but the sizes normally allowed on airlines like EasyJet and Ryanair are very, very small, indeed, and they are strict about it. One thing I've done is to book the front seats, which allows us to take somewhat larger carryons (but still smaller than what many of the trans-Atlantic airlines allow). So, unless you pay extra for those seats and have a carryon that is within their strict limits, expect to pay extra for luggage and factor that into your cost calculations. (Note that if you have to pay at the gate to check your luggage, it will cost a lot more than paying in advance.)

@BB
We will be booking the cheapest flights regardless. I was just checking based on your experience if you thought, as I do, that it seems worth it to add to Our existing place instead of landing and then taking a train or another plane.

We will be traveling with European size carry-on packs only. (I’ll have a cross body purse on me and my son may have a small camera bag.)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Are you asking if I think you should go to London and Berlin instead of Paris or Prague, or in addition to Paris and Prague?

Given that you said Prague was a priority for your son, I was working that one in to my suggestions. Also, I was thinking about budget. I find London VERY expensive--even moreso than Paris, and Germany is a bit pricey, too. Given your budget, I was suggesting places that have wonderful castles and cathedrals to see but where you would also get more bang for your buck.

I haven't been to Berlin, just to Munich and Mainz (and area, including Koblenz). (Mainz is a short train ride from Frankfurt, and a half-day or full-day cruise down the Rhine from there is a good way to see a lot of castles.) Anyway, I can't comment at all on Berlin.

London is not my favourite, but I still think it's a place people should see once, anyway. However, if I had to choose between Paris and London, it would be Paris, without question.

Hope that answers your question. Of course, these are my opinions, only, based on the information you've given.

@BB

I'm sorry, I was voice texting the earlier reply in the school pickup line and it got a bit jumbled.

What I was saying is that I was planning to go in and out of Barcelona at $337. It's 387 to go into London and out of Barcelona on an open jaw ticket. Seems that if I'm headed to Paris from Barcelona, it makes sense to fly into London for another 50 and save some travel time, since a train ticket would be that much anyhow... but I haven't done the transition from London to Paris, so I don't know.

For 415, I can fly into Berlin as long as I fly out of Barcelona. I guess I'm thinking, once I factor in the travel time and train costs, it might make sense, for the additional 80 bucks, to get to Berlin and be that much closer to Prague and Czesky Krumlov. Then, instead when I did a flying route between Prague (or Budapest) and Paris, it would get me back in the direction of Barcelona.

Might save me a little money and free up a day of travel time? I know it's not always that simple... some routes in Europe can be much more efficient even if they are longer in miles, so I'm trying to do some homework on flights and trains and such. It's a jigsaw!

(I tried dozens of combos on google flights and ITA, and the prices leap once I get out of the Barcelona round trip, or Barcelona+London or Berlin combo.)

Open jaw (in one place and out of another) is usually more efficient and worth the extra cost if it's less than ~100, IMO.

@Aimee
Yes, I'm seeing that... From where I am, the crazy prices only seem to extend to Madrid or Barcelona. Not sure if I should hang in there, but I doubt it will go lower or other destinations will be any lower.

What destinations were you looking at?

Sleight: This posting is getting very long, and you've received a lot of good suggestions--and some not so great. It's obvious that you have overdosed on planning. Let me speak some truths to you:
My wife and I used to travel as fast and far in 17 day trips as a rental car could take us. And our trips were often just one big blur. We now spend 4 days minimum in any great European city. Travel to cities in close proximity to each other is best--with good ground transportation.
We do sometimes use budget European airlines--as distances between cities can be greater than you think.
The first and last days in Europe are wasted traveling from and to your hotel from airports. Traveling to a new city also takes a full day, and it takes another day to get your feet on the ground--finding your way around.
There's no way you can execute a trip with so many stops in your original itinerary.
Have you considered flying into Barcelona, taking the 6.5 hour fast train into Paris center city and then taking the Eurostar to London? From London, you could also take a budget flight to another city anywhere in Western Europe. Then fly back to your departing city.

We travel in straight lines. Like Munich-Salzburg-Vienna. Or, Prague, Vienna, Bratislava and Budapest. Or, Venice, Florence, Siena agriturismo and Rome. Or, Paris-Bruge-Amsterdam.

Observations: London is a must see city, however you'll find hotel rooms there to now be priced out of sight. (We're going 6/1/2022). Paris is another must see city, and yes the locals can be a little difficult. We just returned from Berlin and found it to be okay--but not our favorite big city. We loved the incredibly beautiful Dresden, and will be back. We love Amsterdam, Munich and Vienna. Our new go to city is Budapest--a real travel bargain. Before Covid, we went twice to Barcelona and Madrid, and love inland Spain. Italy remains everyone's favorite place, and we've been there maybe 10 times. We're taking a Baltic cruise 6/2022--the only way we can afford to visit 5 very expensive Scandinavian cities.

Good luck on figuring out where you want to go--given your limited time.

@David

I think you are right. It turns out, I could upgrade the Barcelona flight to an open jaw with London in particular for another 50.00. This seemed like a worthwhile increase in the airline ticket as I'm sure the travel to Paris and then London would cost more and take longer than simply flying nonstop from my hometown to London.

So we have London at the beginning and Barcelona at the end, and hopefully I can avoid too much overthinking about the itinerary in the intervening time!

A quick glance at the responses and your replies seems to indicate that you are slowly arriving at my suggestion for your trip... Pick 2 or 3 'bases' and do some day trips from each if desired. London makes a wonderful base and there are many day trips you could do.... Windsor, Oxford, Cambridge, Stratford-upon-Avon, Cardiff Wales, Canterbury, Dover, etc., etc. etc. I can't make recommendations for Paris (we did NOT enjoy our one visit there), or Barcelona. In fact, I'd personally stick to the UK because it is my LOVE! We've visited more than 40 times and I'd go again. You could do 5-7 days in London with 2 or 3 day trips by train. Then train to Edinburgh or Inverness and spend 5+ days (again with 1-3 day trips, then pick one more, perhaps a more rural, destination, such as somewhere in the Lake District or the Cotswolds or stop at York on a return trip to London for a few more days.

Just my 2 cents.

As you can see lots of options and opinions! Obviously I agree with everyone you need to cut both stops and flying way down. If Prague is high on his list, I would work on that. We love Prague, been there several times and it is a very walkable and easy city to do. If you could fly there first, then If you added Berlin as a stopping point after Prague you could take a Nightjet overnight train (do a private compartment) from Berlin to Vienna. You could also Nightjet from Vienna to Zurich. Then you could take a train from Zurich to Paris and fly home from there.

On the other hand if your flights mean you must go in and out of Spain then as others have said you are probably better off focusing on Spain and France or Spain, France, Portugal.

Especially with Covid rules up and down and changing here and there, keep flights and countries to a minimum plus you will just enjoy it more and remember trains are your friend!

Honestly, and this is an unpopular opinion for many, Paris is the first to go from that list for me. Dublin and Copenhagen follow. And that's pre-Covid. I've just never seen the appeal of Paris personally. Dublin is great, but just too far to be convenient--to some extent the same can be said of Edinburgh--and not as exciting as some of the other options on your list. Copenhagen is also great, but it is very expensive, and it, too, doesn't have quite enough of a draw to justify the geographic and financial challenge of adding it.

For someone interested in government, Berlin is so interesting because of its 20th century turmoil--you can literally see the results of fascism, communism, and consumer capitalism stacked on top of each other. It's visible in the architecture, the layout of the city, and in recent memory; your walking tour guides will often remember a divided city and might have family stories from both the divided city and WWII. The museums also get the ancient history, and you can book tours of the Reichstag. Based on the stated interests of your son, Berlin springs to mind immediately on so many levels.

From there it's easy to get to Prague, maybe even via a place like Dresden. What you miss in Berlin (particularly re: old town feel), you get in Prague. Fantastic city.

Some of the suggestions about the Rhein area are great, and we very much enjoyed Brussels--if you go, the Beer and Chocolate tour is so wonderful and worth doing first. We did a bit of Ghent and Bruges as well, both of which can easily be reached from Brussels. Skip the Atomium if time is limited.

Good luck!

Observations: London is a must see city, however you'll find hotel rooms there to now be priced out of sight.

David, look into Hub by Premier ... I'm planning an April 2023 trip, staying at the St James Park location (Westminster Abbey location costs a little more but in same general area) ... using this year as a guide, looks like right at average 106 pounds / night (bigger room, fully refundable ... standard room non-refundable works out to about 76 pounds / night) ... nothing fancy but very central (5-10 min walk to Big Ben, Buckingham Palace, Westminster Abbey, etc...) ... did a quick peek starting June 1 for 3 nights ... range 395 - 501 ... definitely not cheap but not too brutal for center of London in June ...

Agree with other posters here...probably just skip the UK on this trip. If you try to see everything, you don't really get to relax and have a vacation. Take time to soak it in. I would suggest open jaw, but if that does not work for you, consider:
Day 1 land in Barcelona, fly to Paris, night in Paris
Day 2-4: Paris, night train to Brussels on Day 4 (a night train would be quite the experience for a 17 year old--everyone should do it at least once)
Day 5-6: Brussels
Day 7: After a night in Brussels, go to Antwerp early in the AM, spend day in Antwerp
Day 8 : After a night in Antwerp, Go to Prague, arriving later in day, get settled, have a nice dinner, relax.
Day 9-11: Prague with an optional day trip somewhere (e.g. Dachau)
Day 12: After a night in Prague, travel to Vienna ( or Munich or Zurich, or even Venice)
Day 13-15 Vienna (or Munich or Zurich, Venice--can even make an optional day trip from one of those cities--see Rick's guides, lots to do),
Day 15 Travel to Barcelona arriving later in the day. (I would not rush all the travel in your last day; spend the evening of day 15 and all day day 16 seeing a little in Barcelona, but mostly relaxing before traveling home--have a glass of wine, relax, people watch, enjoy.)
Day 16-17 Barcelona, then home on day 17.
If you are set on keeping Copenhagen in the mix, I would suggest 2 nights there and then shift the rest of the schedule down, taking out the Vienna (Munich, Zurich, or Venice) suggestion. Then go to Barcelona from Prague on day 15. Again, I suggest arriving late in the day on day 15 and spend day 16 relaxing before heading home on day 17.
Don't spend your vacation making train and flight connections one after the other, spend it making memories.

@Toni
That was my initial idea for the trip before it got crazy, haha... but my son really wanted to see Stockholm, Amsterdam and Prague the most. Stockholm, it would seem, is out of the question.

@cchapin100
I think I'm looking in the wrong place for night trains, but I do think he would find it fascinating and it would obviously eliminate the need for a hotel for one night.

@HowlinMad
You know, right before you posted I had started to come to that realization. I think he would love to go to the Louvre and some other things, but Paris would use a lot of our resources... I think you are right about Berlin. I've cut it out three times but it keeps going back in!

@deb.birgin
Thank you so much for the amazing and thoughtful itinerary! I agree that I'd like to fly as little as possible and use trains in a way that allows us to get off our feet at the right times.