Need advice for a whirlwind European trip: Aug 26-Sept 20

So, when will you actually not be moving? ;) Overall, my main critique is that I don't think you're giving yourself enough time to actually see anything where you go, and basically creating a series of layovers instead of actual stops. For example, one day in Paris? You could spend all of that at any of the major museums. I would read up on your destinations and see if there isn't a city or two that you'd like to get a better feel of. Otherwise, good luck! That is a pretty crazy trip. I'd love to see what your train schedule looks like at the end. :)

Well, it's actually two days in Paris, not one... and I hadn't mentioned that I have been to Paris once before (years ago) and saw the Louvre, Versailles and the Eiffel Tower; doesn't mean I wouldn't like to maybe see them again, but this trip is meant more for me to just be there and get a taste... Terry

I will post a more helpful post later on....but all I have time to type is..........YIKES!

That's not a trip, that's a flagellation.

Ok, ok... I asked for advice and I get the hint... so, how would you guys recommend I reduce the number of cities to make the trip a little more reasonable? I'd still like to use London as the base and the trip's length wouldn't change; I really don't want the typical relaxing vacation; I want to see as much as I can, so maybe 2-3 days per place for now? Thanks! Terry :)

I doubt this is even a physically possible itinerary. Even if it was, you will see almost nothing. Cut your amount of destinations in half. AT LEAST.

One way to look at a trip is to count how many nights you will be in a place, not how many days. Counting days is misleading. If you have two nights it is equal to only one full day. A one night stay is more or less just passing through. I have done that on rare occasions when there is a place I want to see on the way to another destination. Example - going from Florence to the Cinque Terre we stopped off in Lucca for a night. We had less than 24 hours there, including the time we were sleeping. To do that occasionally is okay. You have a lot of one nighters. You will be on the move more than you will be seeing any sites. Don't underestimate how long it takes to move from location to location, especially by train. It's too bad you have a round trip ticket. That complicates things. I recommend you go to fewer places. You can still see a lot of places, but those one night stands are going to get old really fast. Only you can decide what you are willing to sacrifice.

Well, as you asked, here is a possible itinerary which would be somewhat less frantic, yet manages to see many of the places you are interested in. Of course, in the final analysis, it is your trip and you must be the final judge of what works for you. August 27-28 London August 29 Eurostar to Paris August 30, 31 Paris Sept 1 cheap flight to Berlin Sept 2,3 Berlin Sept 4 Train to Prague Sept 5, 6 Prague Sept 7 Train to Vienna Sept 8, 9 Vienna Sept 10 Train to Munich Sept 11 Munich Sept 12 Train Munich to Brussels via short stopover at Cologne Sept 13,14 Brussels with daytrip to Bruges Sept 15 Train to Amsterdam Sept 16, 17 Amsterdam Sept 18 Cheap flight to London Sept 19 London, possibly daytrip to Cambridge, Brighton, Bath, Oxford, Coventry, or Stratford on Avon
Sept 20 fly home

Another detail to keep in mind. For every change of location, in addition to the actual quoted duration of the train ride, you should factor in anwhere from 1-3 hours on each end of the trip. This time includes packing, checking out of the hotel, local transportation to the train station, and the reverse sequence at your arrival destination. So for example, even if the actual train ride between two cities lasts only two hours (and most, if not all of your train voyages would be significantly longer), at a minimum, you can expect it to be closer to a 4 hour total transit.

Roe, thanks... that reduction actually looks doable for me! (I am a sadist, but I am striving to be at least a little realistic! My trip last summer was a whirlwind as well, but I allowed a little more time); I am also considering starting my trip a week earlier and in Brussels; maybe like this? Aug 20-22: Brussels Aug 23: train to Amsterdam Aug 26: train to Cologne Aug 28: early train to Berlin Aug 31: train to Leipzig Sept 2: train to Prague Sept 4: train to Vienna Sept 7: train to Venice Sept 10: train to Geneva Sept 12: train to Luxembourg Sept 14: train to Paris Sept 17: Eurostar to London
Sept 20: fly home Better? Thanks again! Terry :)

With 3 weeks, I'd suggest visiting about one country (or 1.5 countries) per week like you did on your last trip. You could pick Germany (Berlin, Leipzig, Cologne); France and Luxembourg; and The Netherlands and Belgium. Or France, Switzerland, and Germany. I don't think you're allowing yourself enough time in each city, even with this new itinerary. Two days in Berlin and Paris is nothing. It takes time just to figure out the transit system, get oriented to your neighborhood, figure out how to get from a museum to a shopping district, etc. You have 12 cities listed in 30 days, which comes out to 2.5 days per city without taking travel time between them into account. Pare down more. Cut Brussels for sure.

Hi, Take out Luxembourg and Geneva in addition to Brussels, or trade Lyon for Brussels. The rest of the trip you can do with some zigzag traveling within the 24 day period, if you're willing to do one or two night trains, say, from Cologne to Berlin, (very doable) and from Vienna to Venice.

I think your new itinerary is MUCH better, Terry. If you don't mind moving around a lot and you can handle the cost of all the train/plane rides to get from place to place, I think it could work well for you, though I would suggest a couple of changes. I highly recommend skipping Luxembourg. It's not worth that much travel time and would give you two extra days. I'm not sure Geneva is the best choice either. That could be another two days. You can add those days to your other destinations or pick someplace new between Venice and Paris. Perhaps the Lake District in Italy or the Dolomites or the Berner Oberland in Switzerland or Chamonix. I'm not sure what would work best from a train perspective. This is more moving around than I like to do, but if you enjoy this type of travel, go for it!

I have been to Geneva and have found it pretty dull. It reminds me of Canberra (our national capital). It is also in a relatively flat part of Switzerland. I know most people on this site tend to recommend the Bernese Oberland, though given your itinerary it means making some extra train connections. I would personally recommend Lucerne in Switzerland as it is closer to mountains than Geneva, and has good train connections.

A suggestion I used last year when planning our trip is account for the number of travel hours (door to door, not just train time) vs. time waking hours. That was a great exercise as it either confirmed that a one night stand would allow enough time (arrived in Rothenburg at 2:00 pm, had to leave by noon the following day to make our Castle reservation.) So that amounted to 9 hours on day one and 4 hours on day two. So for us, 13 hours was plenty to wander, see things, eat, enjoy a festival.
Two nights later we were thinking about spending 1 night in Lake Como. But by the time I did travel time (8+hours driving and stopping for lunch in Switzerland + 4 hours the following day to Venice), that only left 6 waking hours in Verrana. No brainer, we spent two nights in Verrana and loved every minute.

Yeah, I too would skip Brussels and keep going to Amsterdam. Not as popular a suggestion, but I'd skip Berlin too. There are no fast trains between Berlin and anywhere. Also, I have found I get more sightseeing if I take evening trains. No matter how I plan it, taking a morning train eats up most of a day. I'd rather skip a nice dinner and grab take-out and eat on the train. Of course, I spend a lot of time in museums and other sights that have daytime hours. Also, before deciding on destinations, have a look at the fast trains and see which cities connect. Instead of a loop around the continent, you would probably do better to travel in a straight-ish line, then fly back to London from the far end - or, of course, vice versa.

You have to set priorities. You have to be brutally honest about them. You can't just make a big long list unless you have all the time in the world. The reward for this painful exercise will be a really great trip.

I completely understand your desire to see as much as possible. I don't know what your energy level is or how long you can sustain it. It sounds like last year you pretty much stayed in a few places and took day trips to "small" places. That is much easier than changing lodgings every 2-3 days and going to major cities. To me (and I think to many on the helpline), this trip sounds like sensory overload, with little or no time to relax and enjoy the moments. Your revised schedule is an improvement, but still. . . . Some of your destinations are not high on most must-see lists. Is there some reason you really want to see Geneva? Luxembourg? I haven't been to them, or to Leipzig. I didn't think Cologne was that special - except for the cathedral. I recommend that you take a few hours now to see the train schedules and figure out how much time it will take you to get from place to place, and how much time you will really have in each place. . . . and how much it is going to cost you. Train fares aren't cheap. Then take a deep breath and be honest. Do you have the energy for 30 days of whirlwind? Hey, you were in Europe last year, you're planning a trip now - it sounds like you'll be back again and again.

Hi everyone, As usual, thanks so much for the good advice :) I have been thinking more about my trip and I think that I may have come up with a doable trip; I checked it against the high speed rail routes, I just need to figure out what exactly I want to see and do in each place... please let me know if this is better and feel free to offer suggestions as to stuff I'll need to do; thanks! Terry Sept 2: Fly into London Sept 5: Eurostar to Paris Sept 8: train to Zurich Sept 10: train to Frankfurt -(scenic Rhine Valley train?) Sept 12: train to Amsterdam -see The Hague Sept 15: train to Brussels
-visit Bruges Sept 17: Eurostar to London Sept 20: fly home

Terry, this is much better, logistically. Can you fly open jaw? That return-to-London-just-to-catch-a-plane thing is a huge waste of limited time. I do have a sort of philosophical suggestion, which is that it sounds as though you are picking places top down and then figuring out "to see and do in each place." But if you instead list the things you want to see and do, you may make different (and better) decisions about where you go and how much time you spend in each place.

Hi, Your last draft itinerary leaves out Leipzig, Berlin, and Vienna. Is that then the itinerary? I myself would have retained these cities or, at least, one of them.

Hi Terry, Now that looks like a great trip. Frankfurt - lots to see and do. I stayed at the Ibis Centrum (€49/night ppd). Great location, just bring your own toiletries. Instead of Brussels, consider staying in Ghent. It's about half way between Brussels and Bruge and more to see and do than in Brussels.

Fred: as a musician, I really would like to stop in either Leipzig or Vienna, but people have said that they thought them not really worth it for the type of trip I'm planning; and when I shortened my itinerary to be more realistic, it seems like they are too much out of the way... can you see a way to add one into the last itinerary I made? Thanks! :) And Chani: I've read a little about Ghent and that sounds like a good idea, thanks! Terry :)

Adam: sorry, I missed your post somehow ( :-/ ) The reasons that I like the London round trip thing are 1) the flight is a lot cheaper; 2) I really like London & 3) the places that I'd like to see seem to lend themselves to this sort of itinerary without a lot of troubles :) As for the top down thinking, you are exactly right; I am looking at places that I have heard have a lot to see, then trying to work out the details afterward. If that doesn't work, I can always change the location :)
And Fred: I just reread through the comments and it seems that I have confused some places; no one mentioned that I should skip Leipzig or Vienna; I'd love to try to work Vienna back in, if possible, but I don't think that Leipzig will fit... gonna work on that!

Hi, Based on your last draft itinerary, yes it is possible to include Leipzig, more so, if Zürich is taken out. If you do that, this is what I suggest: Paris-Berlin by CNL night train, transfer to Leipzig on the next ICE. Or, day..Paris-Frankfurt direct on the ICE, then transfer to Leipzig. You arrive in Leipzig by 1800 the latest. Now, if you include Zürich, you can still see Leipzig as a day trip from Frankfurt r/t. This way gives you ca. six hours in Leipzig. Dep Frankfurt 0920 direct to Leipzig, arr 1246. Dep Leipzig at 1911 to Frankfurt arr 2254, both legs are on the ICE, direct. The down side is that you're returning ca 2300...that's why I stay close to the train station. Both options are doable. I prefer the first one. To get to Amsterdam from Leipzig, go to Berlin, then take the Amsterdam-Berlin CNL night train....very doable logistically. As a musician you especially want to see Leipzig...no doubt about it.

Fred: thank you so much for actually going to the trouble of looking up train schedules; that was very kind if you (I've spent hours goin over train schedules and they all start running together after a while...). So, Leipzig rather than Vienna? Maybe of I were to add one more day to my trip? I'll definitely look into all of this tomorrow... thanks again!