Need a Lot of Help--25 days in Europe

What a wonderful sounding trip and I am sure you will enjoy it. I like the fact that you have allowed enough days in each city to get the feel of the place.

However as one who has been to these places, some many times, and lived in Europe two things stand out to me.

Five nights in Amsterdam, even knowing your Dutch heritage, seems like about 2 days too many to me. Personally I would rather spend those other days in almost any of the other cities.

If I were to spend more than 3 nights in any of these cities it would be Budapest, Prague, Vienna.

But there is certainly no place in your itinerary that should give you pause or worry. They are all easy places to travel to especially by train and there is really nothing to worry about.

Go. Have fun. Don't stress about it.

The order you have makes sense but continue researching and change it so you go to the places you know you will really enjoy. I love Amsterdam but 3 nights is enough

I am beginning to question the itinerary--not so much for the timing
but whether these are places we will really enjoy. Our heritage is
Dutch and I am quite sure we will love Amsterdam and/or surrounding
small towns but feeling intimidated by much of the trip and destinations...

If "small towns" are part of what you love, your concerns are completely understandable. These are some very big cities (which do in fact intimidate visitors sometimes.) Why not split your 5 nights in the NL between Amsterdam and Delft, or some other small places? Why aren't you booking right in Bruges (or Gent?) Why not pay a visit to Bremen, or Hameln, or Goslar on your way to Berlin? Budapest (and possibly Vienna) drag you far to the east and add lots of ground travel time - consider them (and perhaps Prague) for a future trip, but keep the first 4-5 places and pepper them with some smaller ones.

Re - Amsterdam - I would say it depends on how many day trips you plan to do. We stayed 5 nights last year, but I feel like Ams got shortchanged - because we did day trips to Haarlem, Den Haag and spend a day doing Keukenhof and the tulip fields - so we only had 1 full day for Ams itself (and that was the day it rained a bit)...and we could have day-tripped a few other places as well - Leiden, Delft - but no time. (We stopped in Rotterdam on the way to Dordrecht, and day-tripped from Dor to Gouda and Kinderdijk.) I was also under the weather, so most evenings we were back in our room by 7pm or so.

In the future, I'd love to go back to Ams and have 2 full days (3 nights) just for the city itself with no daytripping.

Instead of Brussels, you could look at staying in Ghent itself (or many prefer Bruges as well). Mind you, we only had a few hours in Brussels while waiting for our train to Paris, so it didn't make much of an impression. We spent 3 nights in Ghent, day-tripping to Bruges and Ypres (Ieper)...and we spent an afternoon in Antwerp while in transit from Dordrecht (where we spent 3 nights) to Ghent. Ghent may feel like more of a break from a big city, tho you'll only have been on holiday for a few days by then. Otherwise, we had NO expectations for Belgium, and were instantly charmed by Antwerp and Ghent - and it's def on the return to list...probably combined with more time in NL.

This is a great schedule but I agree with aarthurperry about the 5 nights in Amsterdam since museums are not your main interest. An option would be to take 2 nights from Ams. and spend them in Cesky Krumlov or add a night to Vienna and Prague. You can do a day trip to Bratislava from Vienna. Have fun.

This is your plan with my comments inserted:
London--4 nights

You can see a lot of the city in four days, but you might consider one day in the beautiful English countryside. There are day tours to Bath, also Salisbury and Stonehenge as well as the Cotswolds.

Brussels--4 nights (day trips to Bruge & Ghent)

You can do Brugge and Ghent in one day. Brussels is OK, but other than the Grand Plaza, it is a second tier city in my opinion. Consider cutting at least one day, perhaps two.

Amsterdam--5 nights

I love Amsterdam and the two great art museums there. Rembrandt and Van Gogh are super. If you take side trips to the countryside or Zyder Zee, I could see five days.

Berlin--4 nights

I visited Berlin twice, once while the wall was up and once after the elimination of the wall. Don't miss the Pergamum Museum and if you can go into the Reichstag, do so. I understand the Holocaust Museum there is excellent. However, you might cut it to three and add one to Prague.

Prague--2 nights

Add a day

Vienna--3 nights

Budapest--3 nights

Add a day from one taken from Brussels.

I am not sure how you are going to travel from city to city, rail seem the best. Your Amsterdam to Berlin would be the longest and one that might be amenable to air.

I agree with a previous poster that mentioned that getting to Vienna will take a lot of travel time. It is a big city, and frankly I can't remember much from there except museums.

Perhaps you could consider Salzburg instead? Smaller town, and if you liked Sound of Music, you should find it "familiar". Also, there are some nice side trips from there: Hitler's Hideout above Berchtesgaden, Konigsee, salt mine tours, Halstatt as a day trip, ice cave at Werfen (Google "Eisriesenwelt"), and the Sound of Music tour.

On the other hand, if you do go to Vienna, consider a train stop at Melk, about 40 min west of Vienna. Google image "Melk Abbey". It is a bit like a mini Sistine Chapel.

In Berlin, my son and I enjoyed the Sandeman's free tour that leaves everyday from the Brandenberg Gate:
http://www.neweuropetours.eu/berlin/en/home#

When you said "Our heritage is Dutch", I thought "that sounds like someone from Grand Rapids". I see that I was right! I'm also Dutch and in GR. With that in mind, you might consider a day trip from AMS to Giethorn, which is a bit like a Dutch Venice. Google it. We also enjoyed the Amsterdam zoo, and if you can time it when they feed the seals, so much the better.
Dank u wel.

Virtually no one ever raves about Brussels, so I would certainly plan to spend my Belgian nights in a different city.

I loved Berlin, but when I think of Berlin, I see modern architecture, huge museums and time-consuming historical sights (especially those related to the Cold War). If you are not much interested in such things, I would skip Berlin on this trip and use that time elsewhere to see some smaller places. Germany has hundreds of lovely small towns, and our Germany experts will be able to suggest some convenient possibilities once your basic line of travel is firmed up.

I note, however, that your trip is in April. Europe north of the Alps can be sort of overcast/cool/wet at that time of year, so if it were my trip, inside a lot of museums is where I'd expect to be. I've spent four winters in Michigan, though, so I realize that Europe in April may not be an issue at all for you.

I wonder why you think you won’t enjoy these places? What “intimidates” you? This is logistically an easy route to make. Sure, for me, Italy, France and Spain are my absolute favourite destinations, but that doesn’t mean I can’t have a great time in other places ... and I do.

I would spend a night less in Belgium, adding it to Prague. Choose Ghent as a base over Brussels.

London--4 nights
Via Brussels to Ghent—3 nights
(day trip to Bruges)
Via Antwerp to Amsterdam--5 nights
Berlin--4 nights
Prague--3 nights
Vienna--3 nights
Budapest--3 nights

In addition to sleeping in Ghent over Brussels, look at basing in Haarlem instead of Amsterdam. It's only 15-20 minutes by train into the big city and well connected to other towns, too.

If you haven't identified other, smaller-town alternates (or day trips) that you might prefer to these big cities, it might just be that you're not far enough along in your research. You can get a summary of more ideas in the Explore Europe section of this web site.

Prague-Vienna is not necessarily a long travel day; it's only 4 hours by direct train.

I agree with others that you're giving Brussels too much time. Maybe a couple of nights in Bruges or Ghent would be enough. I'm Dutch too (should we start a Dutch Caucus in the RS community?) and I had a great time in Amsterdam with a day trip to my ancestral town in Gelderland, easy by train. I'd give the time you save in Belgium to Prague and Budapest.

Hope this doesn't turn out to be your last trip, and hope you'll get past feeling intimidated. You're experienced travelers, you're allowing enough time in each city to get a good feel for it, and trains are the way to go here.

So grateful for all the input and different perspectives. You have provided much needed direction and given me ideas to think about and options to research. To clarify my intimidation--I am very excited about the opportunity to plan a trip like this but with cities/towns that are new to us in multiple countries, it obviously requires a fair amount of research. In a perfect world, several less ambitious trips might make more sense but my husband's bucket list is focused on exploring areas of the U.S. with our RV. I consider it a blessing to look forward to doing both. I hope we make other trips to Europe in the future but if not, this trip will be memorable in itself.

Going back over some of the tentative itinerary with specific follow up from your helpful comments:

London--We are flying 1st class and arrive @ 0700 so I think we will be rested enough to sightsee that day. Hop On/Hop Off bus for that day to get an overview? Maybe 2 more days in London broken up by one day trip with the total # of days there still 4? I really like the idea of a trip to the English countryside. I would like to choose a small town that is not too expensive to travel to and doesn't require too much travel time. On the other hand, if there is a place that is a must-do but requires a little more effort, that is possible.

Brussels--Seems to be a consensus that 4 nights is too much and that there are better options. It looks beautiful at night so maybe after taking the Chunnel from London, we could spend the rest of that day and one night in Brussels, then spend 2 more nights in Bruge, Ghent, or Antwerp.

Amsterdam--I actually planned to spend 5 nights in Amsterdam but as a home base for day trips to small towns. Maybe 2 days in the city itself to see Anne Franke House, etc. and then day trips. Not a fan of switching hotels every day so that seemed like a viable option. Maybe better to stay in Haarlem instead and day trip from there? I would absolutely love to go to Giethoorn (it has been on my Pinterest board for a long time!) but not sure if it is too far from Amsterdam. I will do more reading on the small towns in the NL to see which we might enjoy (canals, windmills, hopefully flowers, local markets, cheeses, ethnic food, biking, etc.)

Berlin--Everyone I know who has been there liked it. Someone suggested renting bikes b/c it is spread out. Because of its crucial place in history, there are some landmarks we would like to see but now questioning whether 4 nights is too much. We really liked Munich but I am beginning to wonder whether Berlin should be part of our itinerary and if not, what other places make sense logistically. I am not familiar with the towns mentioned as possibilities on the way to Berlin but will check them out. So many decisions!

Prague--We can do a free 48 hr. layover enroute from Berlin to Vienna--thus the 2 night stay. It wouldn't be the end of the world if the stopover wasn't free but truthfully, it was added because of the layover perk.

Vienna--Like almost anything, some people love it and some are less impressed. Appreciate the suggestions for day trips from Vienna. I will do some reading about Melk. I should have mentioned before that we previously stayed in Salzburg (from Munich) and loved it but at this point, I am trying to seek out places not yet explored. Thank you for the suggestion to day trip to Bratislava--I am pretty clueless about it but will definitely look into it!

Budapest--This is the fixed endpoint for our trip. I am happy with our Business class flights back to MI from there and really don't want to pay a change fee. It looks like a gorgeous city.

This trip has changed from originally thinking about a shorter trip (Amsterdam-Copenhagen-Berlin) without even a remote thought of destinations like Budapest. Your suggestions encourage me to keep an open mind about what would make this a great travel experience for us. Please continue to share your thoughts!

P.S. To those who mention our shared Dutch heritage--our ancestors from Holland are several generations back. However, both my husband and I grew up in a small Dutch community in NW Iowa. They still have a 3 day Tulip Festival in May which is a community celebration that we looked forward to as children. We have taken our own kids and grandkids back quite often and have wonderful memories of sharing it with them. So even though I realize that the Netherlands will be different (isn't that part of the reason we travel?), I think we will be quite comfortable in their culture.

Hi Mary. I like your route. The only thing I didn't understand is the "layover in Prague". Berlin to Prague is about 4 hours by train - best way to do it. Then train to Vienna, train to Budapest. A'dam to Berlin - it's a longish train ride, but I'd rather do that than the hassles of air travel and what with getting to/from the airport, luggage issues and so on, I'd choose the train even if it meant an additional 2 hours (probably less) total travel time, door-to-door. I would do the entire trip by train, starting with Eurostar to Brussels.

Belgium - IMO the least interesting of your destinations. 3 nights, max. I like staying in Ghent, it's between the other two. I still haven't been to Brussels, not sure there's much to see other than a museum or two and the main square.

5 nights in the Netherlands is not too much. There are lots of places to explroe and I understand your not wanting to change hotels. I'd choose a different base than A'dam. The area around the train station is not especially pleasant and staying farther means additional time on day trips. Friends stayed in Haarlem and daytripped every day to A'dam. I've stayed in The Hague and enjoyed it. Delft, Rotterdam, Utrecht - all worth visiting too.

I'd add a night to Prague. 2N is really only one day. If you can find an extra day, stop for a night in Dresden between Berlin and Prague.

Without art museums, 2 nights might be enough in Vienna. Another night in Budapest never goes to waste.

BERLIN:

...now questioning whether 4 nights is too much. We really liked
Munich but I am beginning to wonder whether Berlin should be part of
our itinerary and if not, what other places make sense logistically. I
am not familiar with the towns mentioned as possibilities on the way
to Berlin but will check them out.

Most would say 4 nights are barely enough for Berlin, that 5-6 are better. But if you will be dropping it, you have 4 nights elsewhere, where you don't need as long as Berlin. Where? Your following stop is Prague. By train you have your choice of traveling a.) via Hanover and Berlin, or b.) via Frankfurt and Nuremberg. This second route makes a lot of sense; you could schedule a stay in the a.) Middle Rhine Valley and/or nearby Mosel Valley, both near Frankfurt, or b.) further east in Franconia, which are both popular destinations with old-world towns, castles (particularly the Middle Rhine Valley), river cruises, and lots of wineries. Both offer a nice contrast to your other destinations, and 4 days would be about right. Staying in Franconia (for example in Nuremberg, the train hub) allows easy day trips by train to smaller towns (Rothenburg, Bamberg, Bad Windsheim for example) and also positions you for an easy trip to Prague. The Rhine/Mosel Region is also well served by trains and day trips are easy there as well.

Franconia within Germany: http://www.mygermancity.com/franconia-map
Rhine/Mosel region within Germany: http://ontheworldmap.com/germany/state/rhineland-palatinate/rhineland-palatinate-location-on-the-germany-map-min.jpg

Although Berlin is not crossed off our itinerary, we are seriously considering the suggestion to substitute the alternate route through the Rhine Valley. I am struggling to figure out train connections, stopping points, lodging. If we left Amsterdam by train with 2-4 days to get to Prague, what would you suggest? Since we are using hotel points for much of this trip, larger cities work out better as a base but a few nights without using reward points is ok. Beautiful scenery, interesting towns, and options for short boat and/ or easy bike rides appeal to us. My apologies if I should redirect my questions to a German forum rather than continuing this thread. I am so appreciative of your gracious comments and help so far!

My vote goes to visiting Bremen and Hameln as suggested above. I didn't visit Hameln until 2007, what I should have done was to see that place in 1987 as a day trip from Göttingen, where I was staying at the hostel. I never visited Goslar, even though it is highly recommended.

Your itinerary looks good. I would only take some night(s) from Amsterdam and add it to Prague. 2 nights = 1 full day and that's too little for Prague. I liked Antwerp better than Brussels and stayed there and did day trips to Brussels, Bruges, Ghent and Ardennes. If you want some picturesque small towns I would suggest Cesky Krumlov and Hallstatt.

yeah I agree that Amsterdam wouldn't worth to stay that long, move some days to Prague (which is cheaper and nicer) and add Hallstatt to your list if possible.

There are lots of day trips that are easy to do from London on the train. Amazon has books with information about these day trips. Salisbury is a good one.

"Although Berlin is not crossed off our itinerary, we are seriously considering the suggestion to substitute the alternate route through the Rhine Valley. I am struggling to figure out train connections, stopping points, lodging. If we left Amsterdam by train with 2-4 days to get to Prague, what would you suggest?"

I'd suggest time in Boppard, just south of Koblenz, in the scenic Middle Rhine Valley. It's well located and is surrounded by what you suggest - "Beautiful scenery, interesting towns, and options for short boat and/ or easy bike rides..."

Boppard's attractive old town
Boppard's watefront
View from Gedeonseck terrace (near top of Boppard's chairlift)

Boppard has the largest selection of dining and accommodations options in the Rhine towns between Koblenz and Bingen. From there you can catch a direct train south to the other worthwhile Rhine towns - St. Goar (home of Rheinfels Castle,) Oberwesel & Bacharach all line up on the same side of the river. You can also visit the Mosel River towns by train (Cochem, for example.) It's also easy to take a nice river cruise if you stay in Boppard - one train to Bingen (30 minutes then the cruise boat back to Boppard (2.4 hours through the most scenic part.) Braubach (home of the amazingly intact Marksburg Castle) is on the opposite riverbank and a little to the north; ferry across + catch a train there, or use the cruise boat service straight to Braubach. Bike rides north of Boppard take you past Marksburg and use a dedicated path most of the way.

Looking at a sample date in April I see an 8:02 am departure from Amsterdam, arrival in Boppard at 12:44; one change of train in Cologne.

The train ride to Prague is a long one. My suggestion is that you break it up with a 1-2-night stopover in Nuremberg (depending on your level of interest in Nuremberg.) It's about 4 hours from Boppard to Nuremberg with 1 change of train; the next day you'd have a direct bus trip using DB's InterCity bus service to Prague. There are many hotels near Nuremberg's station if it's just a place to have dinner and sleep. If it's a 2-night stay, Nuremberg will not run out of things to do.

Right near Nuremberg station: the Handwerkerhof is a fun place you can visit quickly.

Are you using a rail pass or individual tickets? You can get a single ticket for Boppard - Prague with a stopover in Nuremberg. Just now I searched a sample date of April 18, leaving Boppard at 10 am, with an overnight stopover of 18 hours in Prague. The result: depart Boppard 10:12, arrive 14:27 in Nuremberg w/ 1 change in Koblenz... then the next morning, depart Nuremberg 8:50 on the direct IC bus for Prague (12:25.) The "saver fare" for the entire journey is currently priced at €29.90 total. Perhaps you'll have similar luck with your dates.

Although Berlin is not crossed off our itinerary, we are seriously
considering the suggestion to substitute the alternate route through
the Rhine Valley. I am struggling to figure out train connections,
stopping points, lodging. If we left Amsterdam by train with 2-4 days
to get to Prague, what would you suggest?

The fastest connections from Amsterdam to Prague go via Hannover or Frankfurt. If you take the train via Hannover you could also consider a few days in the Harz mountains, which offer some of the best preserved towns of the country, with literally thousands of half-timbered houses. Two of them, Goslar and Quedlinburg, are World Heritage Sites. From Wernigerode, which is equally beautiful, you can take a historic steam train up to Northern Germanys highest mountain, the Brocken.

Quedlinburg reviews:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g198402-d2239030-Reviews-Altstadt_Quedlinburg-Quedlinburg_Saxony_Anhalt.html#REVIEWS

Harz Steam Railway:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g198507-d2525775-Reviews-Harz_Steam_Railway-Wernigerode_Saxony_Anhalt.html#REVIEWS

170.000 pics of the Harz region (Quedlinburg, Wernigerode, Goslar, Wolfenbüttel, Stolberg, cathedral (Dom) Halberstadt):
http://www.raymond-faure.com/index_harz_english.htm

Keep your time in Amsterdam (or Haarlem). We are not Dutch, and enjoyed the 3 days we spent there prior to our RS tour which added another 2 days. Would go back for more! 10 years ago we went by train from Amsterdam to Munich by train along the Rhine— beautiful. You could stay in a small town and do a river excursion too—or up the Mosel. We did do a day to Rothenburg which involved several trains but the city is incredible. We looked at the itinerary of the best of Europe trip and converted it to a train trip.
Munich to Salzburg is easy , as is Salzburg to Vienna by train.
Also, Brussels is lovely but a big city. I’d vote for Bruges. It is very close and train fare from Bruges to Brussels was very reasonable.
Loved Berlin but it is out of your way. If keeping it, consider flying from Amsterdam or Brussels, then resume your train travel to Prague.