Me-First in public spaces

I think it's just one of those cultural differences. In some places it's wrong and in others, it's the norm. Now excuse me while I sharpen my umbrella and head for Penn station to catch a train!

It might be population density that breeds anonymity and causes people to loose sight of good interpersonal manners. We have noticed that too, at trains especially. My wife gives no ground though, when push comes to getting getting on a train nobody gets in front of her. Otherwise she is a very polite Canadian born woman with sharp elbows.

I think it is a cultural difference, perhaps having to do with notions of inside space (home) and outside. Here's a non-european example of what I mean. My daughter lived in Japan for 4 years, and we visited in 1987. We noticed that the Japanese, who are very clean and tidy at home, freely littered in public, to the extent of tossing picnic garbage on beaches - - e.g., watermelon rinds in the sand! It was viewed as such a problem that their government began issuing brochures along with passports advising that other countries considered littering unacceptable, and, in some, it was even illegal. Same thing with queuing, or should I say non-queuing. Very polite in personal situations, the Japanese would mow down anyone in their way getting on a subway train. You'd have to see a Tokyo metro stop at a busy time to believe it.

Last week in Belgium, we noticed everyone lining up for the buses. We actually apologized for jumping the line. On the other hand, I've never seen such a free-for-all as the mess at NY's Penn Station when the train track is announced. You need to use your suitcase as a weapon or you won't make your train.

In some situations I do notice this in Europe but I also see it a lot here where I live... San Francisco Bay Area.

I first observed this more than 30 years ago on a ski trip to Switzerland. It didn't take long for us to learn how to use our ski poles to keep people from crowding past us.

No one in their right mind could possibly think this is not rude... no matter what culture, it might be the 'norm' but it is still the 'me first, I'm better than you and if you are stupid enough to stand there, so be it.'

Back when I was studying Italian, the topic came up one day in class about people riding the city buses without a ticket. (Now, of course, there are plenty of people who have month or year passes, so don't have to validate anything, and so one cannot just assume that everyone who gets on and does not validate a ticket is riding without one.) Every time an agent comes on board to do a random inspection, there seems to be at least one Italian who is caught without a proper ticket. The teacher (a native) replied that breaking the rules like that is seen my many to be a sign of intelligence; in other words, if you can get away with something, you are smart. I have certainly seen this mentality at play in other European countries, particularly in those that were previously oppressed by Communist regimes. And look at places like Greece, where there is rampant tax evasion. The mentality certainly is present in the U.S. also; I once worked for a woman who seemed to take pride in her ability to "screw over Uncle Sam" in her business accounting. The point being, I think the same mentality is at play with the bad social graces. "The bus is arriving; if I can get on it before you, aren't I the more clever one? You should have been a bit more aggressive!" Not that it is necessarily a conscious thought-process; they learn it from a young age. I see this all the time here in Rome. It is maddening, and even after being here for about a year now, and having gotten used to many unpleasant aspects of the culture, this is one of the things that still pushes my buttons a bit.

... continued I marvel almost daily about Italians' ability to take up an entire sidewalk, even if there are only two of them walking. They don't walk in a straight line, they put just enough space between them so that you can't pass, etc. etc. It is really remarkable. I have started to learn to hold my own: if I am walking straight towards someone, I keep going straight towards them until they have to move out of my way. Also, I have noticed that they are not as sensitive about personal space as we tend to be in the States. If someone is in their way, they just push their way through. The other day I walked out into the street to get around a crowded bus stop mob on the sidewalk, and two guys walked right out in front of me and stopped. It was obvious that I was in a hurry and trying to get around the crowd. Not their problem -- they apparently wanted to stand in that part of the street, regardless of whether I was walking there or not! Well, thanks Cary for the opportunity to vent! For all of our problems in the US, living abroad has helped me to be more grateful about certain things that I would have otherwise taken for granted!

I think queuing behavior varies a lot and we should not over-analyze the issue. In almost all areas of mundane life, generalizing "the Europeans" is as strange as generalizing "the North Americans" (Can. + US + Mexico). Here in the Netherlands, people rarely queue up for trams because you can enter them by many doors (usually) or they are rarely jam-packed outside peak hours. Many stores will have a system of queuing by number. On smaller ones you might just keep a "virtual line" while seated (people just notice the 2 or 3 that arrived before them and go afterwards ).

In a queue in Europe it is important to stay close to the person in front of you. If a gap appears, it may seem that you are not "in line" and someone may try to squeeze in. I hold my space more consciously in Europe than at home or in most of England. In Bath I've seen students swarm to get on a bus, so even in England the queue is not always respected.

I was recently in Russia and although there did not appear to be any queuing going on, just milling around, there was a "system". You sort of had to find out who the last person was waiting, acknowledge them with a nod, then wait 'til that person's turn was finished. Usually that person would signal to you when you arrived (or was pointed out to you), and you had to signal the person that would arrive after you. Even the very busy metro and buses sort of worked that way - without the nods. People just seemed to be quite aware of who was around them... Besides which, some aggressive people and queue-jumpers just exist everywhere, no matter what the local "system" is.

There is no "cultural difference" on this one. People trying to jump a queue, or a lack of a formal queue leading to "every man for himself" to get through a crowded situation or to jump to the front of the pack happens all over the world in both large cities (including England which is not immune to this at all - go to a crowded sporting event, take the Tube at rush hour, or try to belly up to the bar at certain times of the night when it's 4 deep in front of the taps) and even in many suburban settings. It's not a European v. North American phenomena - as mentioned, look at Japanese subways during rush hour, or try to take a train someplace in India. It's not even a city population v. suburban population issue. I was in a suburban CVS the other week. There were 2 cash registers open and 3 signs saying "form one line at checkout". All of us waited in a long line for a good 10 minutes when someone walked up, ignored the signs and the 16 people waiting with their baskets while he started unloading his purchases on the counter. Needless to say, he got an earful when more than half the line started to yell at him to get in line and wait his turn. I don't recall ever seeing people in an orderly line up at bus or subway stops. It's a free for all during rush hour. Once the seats fill up you have to contend with a whole group of people who refuse to move further into the center of the bus or subway car because they want to be right near an exit. If you don't elbow your way past these lumps, the doors will shut and leave you to wait for the next overly crowded rush hour bus or subway to come along. The only people that should be near the exit are the elderly, handicapped or mothers with young children and those are the same people I will always motion to step in ahead of me when the doors open.

@Bryan re: Italians filling up spaces. Several years ago we were in Naples. Repeatedly, we'd be walking along; and a group of 3 or 4 would approach. Never did any of them step aside to let us by, despite the fact that often they were young and we clearly were old enough to be their grandparents. I found it quite annoying to have to keep stepping into the street to accommodate oblivious people. I thought it was a Neapolitan thing until this year in Florence. We met up with my brother, who has lived in Italy for 6 months to a year numerous times. As we were walking along, a group of 4 or 5 Italians approached. They kept coming, but my brother stood his ground, and at the last second they gave way. Bro said that after all his years there, he still didn't understand the phenomenon (and he's quite an italophile). He has decided just to keep walking, as he did, ( unless, of course, he's part of a group taking up the entire width of the sidewalk) forcing others to let him pass. I'm sure there are American behaviors so ingrained that we don't notice them, which Europeans find equally unattractive, though this one seems to me to be an obvious matter of basic courtesy.

No one cues like the English. They will wait patiently in line forever rather than go out of turn. At the same time they are really polite if someone cuts in front of them. Italy is more "everyone for themselves" but even they can't compare to many places in Asia, where you have to wedge your way to the front or you will never get there. I did notice some sense of queing in Spain. We were waiting for a bus late at night in Sevilla (during April fair). When we saw the bus coming we moved toward where we would board. A lady and her husband seemed really ticked and came and stood about 6" in front of us with their backs to us. Since there was still a good ten feet between us and where the bus would stop, we could only guess the lady was upset about us cutting in line. When the bus stopped, the lady wanted to wait for a young man who had apparently been waiting before her but he wasn't interested in going first. Maybe the lady was concerned that the bus would be near capacity and they wouldn't get a seat, but that didn't turn out to be the case.

We owned and operated an ice cream store in a costal community on the west coast. Granted there were no ropes for Queue, it was very obvious where the "line" up was for the ice cream case. Invariably, at the rate of over 90%, the Asian/Oriental customers would barge right to the front of the line of 20-40 customers, step in front of a customer that we were filling an order for, and try to place an order. Cultural....yes! Being about 2 hours from Seattle, we did have customers from numerous foreign countries and other cultures....not an issue with them! Just an observation over a 10 year period! Dan

I seems to be human behavior to fill the lateral space. It happenns here in the USA by us and by many of our visitors. I usually just keep going and someone moves aside at the last moment. Or I stand in place until someone in the group sees me and they move around me. In Italy once, I stood still as a group of young women approached. One of them wasn't paying attention and banged right into me. BTW this behavior is common on bike paths, too. Side-by-side they come at you. I yell "keep to the right." That usually works.

I think there are cultural differences that you can broadly generalize to some degree and queing is one of them. I don't think it's entirely explained away by "large city" v "suburbs" or "small town" either. People are a lot ruder about getting on/off trains here in Stuttgart (and other parts of Germany, and France) than they ever were in San Francisco, which is far larger and more urban than Stuttgart. People here just generally don't seem to wait for people to disembark before they start shoving on, regardless of how crowded it is. It used to bother me, now I'm used to it (and will probably come across as rude by doing the same when I visit home, unconsciously). As James noted, there are differences in driving as well. Us Californians love our freeways, and in general people are pretty good about allowing space for merging traffic, which doesn't even seem to occur to people in Germany, to the point where if I am in the right lane and see someone trying to merge, I will slow down to let them in - and they will slow down to wait til I pass them, completely befuddled by my behavior! And yet when it comes to "zippering" - when a lane ends and cars have to merge into one lane - the Germans are as orderly as you could hope for, everyone allowing just one car in front of them, no one trying to edge in when they're not supposed to. That NEVER happens in California. What's so bad about observing this stuff and calling it like it is (or at least, appears to be?)

As far as space-stealing in lines goes, I'll go ahead and make another potentially offensive generalization. It happens here in Stuttgart at least, and when it does, the offender is almost always 60 or over. The obvliviousness to other people while walking (particularly when you're in a hurry!) is another thing I've experienced although I wouldn't be surprised if both these issues are worse in Italy, based on what I've been told about Italy - by Germans, English, and other Americans. Another generalization: Europeans love to generalize about the rude behavior of other Europeans. Hell, they love to generalize about regional differences within countries, just as we do in the U.S. If I had a 2 euro coin for every time I've heard, "Well, of course he's rude, he's from the north..." or "Yeah, but we're in the South, they're weird here..." I would be a wealthy expat.

All generalizations are incorrect including this one and all of Sarah's.

It looks like there may be a correlation between this behavior and the traffic reputations in these areas!

A few years ago there was a hilarious video online about European views as to Italians and all other Euros and the issues of waiting in lines and obeying traffic rules. It posited order by the others and chaos by the Italians-- and it was produced by Europeans.

I wonder how many people in this thread would be offended by the most recent episode of Rick's radio show/podcast? It was a Slovenian woman, an Italian woman, and an Irish man talking entirely in generalizations about differences between Europeans and Americans! It was actually very entertaining and informative, although Ireland sounds way more culturally remote than I would have guessed. They don't do happy hours? I haven't been anywhere in mainland Europe yet that didn't have bars and restaurants advertising happy hours!

"... although Ireland sounds way more culturally remote than I would have guessed. They don't do happy hours? I haven't been anywhere in mainland Europe yet that didn't have bars and restaurants advertising happy hours!" How's this one for a wee bit of generalization? : ;-) he, he - that's because every hour is happy hour in Ireland!

Same thing happened to us on a small Greek island. My husband and I were the first ones at the bus stop; when the bus arrived, we approached the bus but left room for current passengers to disembark. People waiting behind us then starting going around us, making traffic jams on the steps as some people tried to get off while they got on. We ended up being the last people on the bus, and had to stand! It happened so fast that we just stood there looking ... and laughing ... at each other.

I also think it's cultural. In my travels I find that the US, in general, tends follow the unwritten rules of creating and standing in lines in an orderly manner. I was just in San Francisco Friday, and rode the ferry, cable car, trolley, ate lunch, waited in line for a restroom, and everyone was very considerate as I would expected. The event I witnessed at the opposite end of the spectrum was in Shanghai about 15 years ago. I was waiting at a bus stop for the "tour" bus, but witnessing people board the "local" businesses was amazing. It didn't matter if there the bus was empty with 12 people boarding, or if the bus was half full with 50 people boarding. Literally, the crowds elbowed and pushed their way through the crowd to get on the bus; age, sex, etc made no difference. Never had seen a sense of disorder like this before. Saw a similar thing in de-boarding an inter-China plane. People in the back would just plow down the isle, irregardless of people standing waiting to deboard towards the front of the plane.
In Europe I've seen the whole range, but nothing close to like what I've seen in China.

Italian bus "etiquette," if you can call it that, is indeed strange. There is no queue, men of 40 will crowd out a woman older than themselves (me!) to get on first, and exiting passengers are forced to descend into a crowd and barely escape. On the other hand, there is always room for one more. Personal space is non-existent so we stand cheek-by-jowl lest we have to wait another 15 minutes for a bus. I also am constantly amazed at the tendency to take up a whole sidewalk, as Bryan mentioned. It's become a game with us: If we are holding hands or linking arms, we stand our ground and let the loose group advancing on us deviate. We, on the other hand, will deviate to make way for an elderly person or couple. One thing I don't understnad is why people move to their left, not right, when passing on the sidewalk. "Keep right except to pass" is the norm in most American cities, but people here tend to weave to the left. (Or just plain weave.) I don't think any of this is intentional rudeness, it's just a different way of coping with crowds. Busses are not really on a schedule so you have to try and get on when one shows up. There may be another in 30 seconds, or you may have to wait 42 minutes, even if the "schedule" shows 5 per hour. The same person who pushed in front of you to get on the bus will offer you a sample of the finest salami in the world when you walk into his shop, or will take 10 minutes to go out of her way to show you where something is. And they will smile, and laugh, and put up with my poor Italian. For a laugh, Google "Italians vs Europeans Bruno Bozzetto."

Cary, A great question. Catching the train here in the morning going to work, all the German locals just pushed right in front of me to get on, but only after anyone getting off, had gotten off. Now, after a month of being at the stop every morning, going to work, being seen every week day, I now get on in the proper order. People that have arrived after me, get on after me now. I now am included in some unspoken rule or procedure. But by and large though, the Brits are the best and politest at queuing, even though I have seen a little slippage in the last forty years.

Laurel - great video. Sending it to my German friend who previously worked in Italy and is back again. He'll get a kick out of it. Diane - Touche!

To Bryan and Rosalyn-I totally agree with your comments about walking in Italy! Hubs and I were in Rome 6 years ago. I was fresh from knee-replacement surgery and walked with a cane. NOBODY would step aside for me, ever. (These were young, skinny, limber folks, not aged grannies like me.) One fine morning I decided I was tired of leaping (!) into the streets and thought to myself, not today kids, and I just kept on going. A couple of times I had to stopthe 'kids' stopped, facing meI gave them my brightest Yankee-Doodle smile and did not move. They moved. They cussed me out in Italian, but they moved. I decided that's probably why we saw so few 'oldsters' in Rome itself...they must all either come in at the crack of dawn or just stay outside the city because of the kids not letting them use the sidewalks.