Maybe we need to reconsider our point of view?

I agree with the general drift, but consider too that some people are just choosing these places for no reason other than that they are popular, and I think they could potentially have an equal or better experience somewhere else. I can only make assumptions by what limited information people provide in their question, and I try to respond accordingly. I think we all benefit when people spread the love around a bit and don't only go to the same places.
I guess I am a rare bird, but I have been to Italy seven times and have not yet visited Rome, Florence, or Venice. But I will be back, and if I am not, I'll be dead and I won't care.

I agree with valadelphia

Yes I often ask new travelers on the forum what draws them to a specific destination they have chosen, more often than not they can't answer even that question and often never return back to their topics to provide helpful information for us to give them better suggestions. It's almost impossible to provide helpful suggestions when we only have "we like food and architecture" well so do most human beings.

I am a very experienced traveler and agree 100%. Heck, I still like visiting the popular attractions. I remember my first overseas trip and how I had no clue whatsoever of what we were to embark upon. I had a weeks notice, so had done nothing except book air and hotel. It was the best trip and got us hooked on European travel. Sure we probably missed a lot, but we had a great time. I really try to put myself in the shoes of a poster when they ask for advice. I know when we first went to Germany and had Rothenburg on our itinerary, I read so many posts about what a waste that was etc. I had wanted to go there ever since I inherited a print from my grandparents from when they went. I knew nothing else about the town, but wanted to go solely based upon the print. We ignored the naysayers, stayed for 3 nights and absolutely loved it! I would go back in a heartbeat, FWIW.

I agree douglas. I don't like to see someone "scolded" for wanting to see Florence and/or Pompeii as day trips from Rome when they have a grand total of 7 full days in Europe.

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I agree, douglas. I was actually having similar thoughts recently, and I thought that the attitude reminded me of those people in high school that were too cool for anything that was popular. For instance, if a song was popular, they sneered at it, thinking themselves superior for liking some obscure band that most others hadn't heard of.

Since I tend not to repeat destinations, I definitely want to see the popular spots, too, even though I'm a fairly experienced traveller. They are not beneath me, and I agree that they are popular for a reason. That said, being an introvert who dislikes crowds, I try to find ways to visit those spots at less busy times, when possible, and I always appreciate information that helps me to do that.

We like a mix of popular sights and off-the-beaten-path spots. For instance, we visited 7 cenotes in Yucatan this month, and our favourites were the three we had all to ourselves. But we could see why the popular ones were so popular, too.

Recently, we visited two very popular, very "touristy" sites that were NOT high on my agenda, in part because so many posters here pooh-pooh them. However, we ended up visiting them anyway (in one case, because a tour that went to a site that was high on my agenda also went to the really touristy site). In both cases, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed them, although I guess I shouldn't have been. These sites were the Leaning Tower of Pisa and Blarney Castle.

So, I prefer to give advice that helps other travellers do what THEY want to do, rather than what I think they should do (although I will say so if I think their plans aren't realistic, and, of course, I will give suggestions for things they might not be aware of and that I think are worth a visit). But, I'm not one of those "too cool for school" people. I can appreciate both the pop songs AND the alternative music, and if a traveller wants to focus on pop, then I will help them do that.

I don't believe anyone here looks down on newbie travelers - I certainly don't. We were all there at some point as you said. But keep in mind that people come here asking for our opinions. And for many of us, our opinion is that the best way to enjoy Europe is to relax a bit and not travel to a different city each night. If someone wants a generic opinion about various sights in France or other countries, they can get that from a guidebook. But if they come here, we have the right to give an honest opinion. Even so, I think folks here are much nicer about it than other forums (I'm looking at you, Trip Advisor).

I've seen posts from people who said things like, "Yes, I know I'm cramming in 3 weeks of travel into 8 days but I'm okay with that." While they might get a few posts about the joys of slow travel, no one (well, hardly anyone) is going to bite their head off. We all recognize that people travel differently. But I don't think that should stop us from giving an honest opinion. I do agree that responses should be polite and recognize that this is someone who has not traveled much. No one wants to scare new travelers away. But we believe what we believe and there is no reason that someone should be forced to give bad advice, just because that is what the OP wants to hear.

I think I see the I'm-going-there-because-everybody-does situation the most with museums - how many times has someone said they're really not a 'museum person' but they feel obligated to go to the Louvre because they're in Paris? I think the average traveler is just trying to go to the places they've seen on TV or on social media; they probably don't have the 'travel bug' the way that many on this forum do, or maybe they just haven't caught it yet. If they want to go to ten countries in eleven days and can't be persuaded otherwise, well, they probably won't be back anytime soon, so more power to them.

My life/job doesn't allow me to spend extended periods of time in Europe (if only!!) so I take more frequent short trips. I consider myself a fairly experienced traveler; certainly no less of legitimate traveler than one who spends a month in Europe. I have learned what I like and don't like, no matter how popular it is, so I won't waste my (limited) time if I'm not really interested.

Maybe the best we can do for inexperienced travelers who are packing in much more than most of us would into a trip, is to offer suggestions to make their travel more streamlined and efficient, so they can get the most out of their whirlwind adventure.

A lot of people go to places that Rick features on his TV shows. I went to Rothenburg on my first trip, and I enjoyed it immensely. But now its "been there, done that".

I agree with your overall message. Europeans often have an attitude toward Americans or any tourists for that matter, assuming they will try to, "see as much as possible but not see anything at all." When somebody posts an itinerary with almost 40 destinations crammed into a month, they need a reality check. If you're spending more time getting to different places than actually being there, you need to rethink your itinerary in order to have an enjoyable and financially smart vacation. I agree, spending 5 days in Rome is unnecessary. Italy has so much more to offer. But, if somebody is embarking on a once in a lifetime trip with limited time and funds, they should be able to take constructive and respectful critiques of their itineraries to have the best trip possible. The whole point of posting on this forum is to get new ideas. Maybe the folks on here don't offer the same level of professionalism you'd expect from a travel agent charging $1000s, but it's free and often comes from their own experiences. While I do notice some replies with a condescending tone, most of the folks I've encountered on here are quite friendly, and the people receiving their advice, including myself in the past, seem grateful.

I will say that I'm headed to Paris in 50 days for my 2nd full week, solo, visit, specifically because of some of the naysayers - but not in the way some might think. When I first came on the forum, i saw a post about 1000 countries in 2 days (yes, /s) and some of the thoughtful replies about all you're doing is packing/moving between places, but not really SEEING a place. And that has stuck with me - so yes, I'm glad for some of this advice that some might think is 'bad'.
And yes, I went to the Louvre the first time because I felt that I 'should' - and I LOVED It, - but not the art as much, I loved the BASEMENT! (IYKYK)

I think advice on how much time to spend or what to see/skip is great when it's actually requested. If a poster asks, "Is this doable?" or "Please critique my itinerary," or "How many days should I spend in xxxx?" those are examples of asking for that sort of advice. However, if the poster asks, "How do I get to xxxx?" or "Can you recommend a day tour to xxxx?" then I prefer to answer the question as asked without telling the poster that I think xxxx is overrated or that they shouldn't bother to try to see xxxx in a day, because they won't be able to see every little detail.

I have been to Italy 4 times and have gone to Rome and Florence each time. I agree that these places are popular for a reason and deserve whatever time you can give them. I did a "Tuesday Belgium" type tour in 1990 and although we usually travel independently now, the good thing about tours is that they go places that are not on my bucket list-for me those were Copenhagen, Stockholm, Helsinki, and Warsaw. And although I thought it was a waste of tour time to stay at one of those English tourist-heavy beaches in Spain, it was one of my favorite things on the tour because I just laid on a beach chair and slept for hours, which I needed since this was right after the end of my school year as a high school teacher. And I have done Pompeii as a day trip from Rome twice and it was fine, although of course it's a long day.

I remember my father (when I was young), on the very, very rare trip (*footnote below) our family took (I only recall two)......if we wanted to see/do something that any other tourist in the world might want to see/do, his response was: "No, I do not want to look like a #@%## tourist." HUH? We missed out on sooooo much; travel is an education.

Many people want to see the popular iconic sights. There is a reason many of those sights are included in Rick Steves, Tauck, National Geographic, and other popular tours.

Other comment: I will "never" forget an evening strolling around Florence (I think it was, but maybe it was Rome) and seeing a few posters in the window of a travel agency. Those posters (at the time) promoted New York City, the Grand Canyon, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles. As we wandered around that evening and met a few Italians of various ages, when conversation turned to where we lived....and then I asked if they ever had been to the United States, whether yes or no, you can guess which locations had been visited or (more commonly) WHERE they hoped to visit. Often when someone mentioned California, it included reference to BayWatch.

*Footnote: Sometimes kids grow up and "over correct" things they hated about how they were raised. As an adult, I have been blessed to make the choice of visiting all 7 continents and had some pretty breath-taking, pinch-myself, is-this-really-happening experiences.

Outside of a long-weekend, business-related trip to England, our first self-selected overseas trip was the Rick Steves' city tour of Paris, and we visited the top of Eiffel Tower (on our own). We just could not go to Paris without doing that :) Loved it!!!!!! Never dreamed I would experience that......and, of course, my father would have thought he looked like a @#&@ tourist...LOL.
But, that was a beginning, and subsequent travels have resulted being in a Zodiac with the former and first female Prime Minister of Greenland, being so close to a whale in Antarctica that we could have touched it (seriously), flying over hot lava in a helicopter, a camel trek in Morocco.....and on and on I could go...........

So, yes, give the newbies a break......it is wonderful that they are starting travel, experiencing wonder, and from there they will go forward to experience the world in many ways. Let's not "be my dad," discouraging them in our interactions with them. We all start somewhere....I did, and this Forum has been very, very helpful to us on many trips.

My attitude to any traveler is this.....it's your time and your money. Do whatever you want.

Who am I to judge what someone else is doing or where they are going? Should I insist that someone visit a museum when they are not interested in museums? Should I dictate how much time they should spend in one place and them scold them if they do different?

My very first trip to Europe was to visit Italy. We had 14 days boot on the ground and my husbands goal was wine. I wanted to see everything. We met with a travel consultant at Europe through the Back Door and her advice to us was "travel like you'll be back". I wasn't sure I'd ever be back, but we took her advice and cut a few things off of the list. We had a great trip. I'm not sure I would have known it wasn't a great trip because it was my first trip. Now years later and 4 trips to Italy later I might have done that first trip differently, but I still think "travel like you'll be back" is good advice when travelers are faced with all the overwhelming options.

I've tried to live by, "hike your own hike." It doesn't matter why or where one choose to journey, it's their choice to make. The only place for me is to help someone make their journey they choose if they ask.

Maggie, your father sounds like mine! He took my mom and me on a business trip to Phoenix when I was 5 or 6. (My first plane trip!) My mom wanted to visit the Grand Canyon. My dad’s response: “it’s just a hole in the ground.” My mom had to wait about 25 years before she got to see it and I didn’t see the Grand Canyon until I was 57. So note to self, don’t react to other’s sightseeing ideas like my dad.

Our host advises: "Pace yourself. Assume you will return." A poster above advised: "Travel like you'll be back." Same idea. But not because you will necessarily return. Rather, because approaching it that way reduces the stress you may feel thinking that this is your "once in a lifetime" chance to ascend the Eiffel Tower or ride that camel or whatever.

I don't think condescension toward new travelers is a big problem here. Maybe sometimes, but not much. People post questions because they want answers based on others' experiences, and that's what they get. Not always the best answers, or maybe even the most responsive, but sincere ones. I think the best answers are to specific questions like how to get from A to B, or who's stayed at this and that hotel. And the best questions have context like time of year, length of trip, age range of travelers, preference re driving vs. transit, etc.

But I have to confess that expressions like "hit Paris, then hit London, then hit Rome" push my buttons. Europe's not a punching bag. And North Americans may sometimes assume that Europe is easily traversed because distances are so much shorter than what we're used to at home. (I have the same problem with east coast friends who want to drive up here for a weekend after visiting San Francisco.)

Anyway, Douglas, if you're the poster I think I remember, you've given a lot to this forum and received some good ideas. Keep up the good work! ;-)

Consider too that some people are just choosing these places for no reason other than that they are popular

Took me some months to really believe that even for the majority of travelers in this forum this is true.
Americans visiting Germany (for example) going to the places all other Americans going to. Meaningless to point out areas in Germany mostly un-discoverred by American tourist. Seems nobody is really interessted in a different Germany.

And of course everybody wants to go to Paris, Rome, London, Venice or the places in Germany every other American is going to - why not? I do too as a German :-)

What is it that results in SOME experienced travelers looking down on
newbie travelers or travelers that want to go to the most popular/busy
travel destination?

I can of course only speak for myself, but I really don't think anyone looks down on new travellers. But, giving suggestions is not the same as saying a plan is bad. And by learning from others you can avoid some beginner mistakes.

And their are reasons the more popular locations are you know..
popular. It is because most folks want to see them. Because the are
usually amazing locations to visit,

There are many reasons a place is popular. It might be because it is a great place to visit, but it might also be because it is overhyped, or because of marketing from a local tourist board. A travel writer mentioning or not mentioning a place can make a huge difference in tourist numbers. And today a popular instagram post can result in a huge spike in visitor numbers. Sure, there are really unique places out there. There is only one Eiffel tower, one Colosseum and one Parthenon. But many other popular places are to be honest not that unique. There are e.g. loads small cute towns in Germany, but for some reason everyone seems to want to go to Rothenburg o.d.T.

I am not going to give up seeing the Cotswolds so i can spend a day in
some no name town seeing how “the real English live” or whatever.

What brings you to the Cotswolds? Have you done a lot of reading on England and ended up on the conclusion that the Cotswolds is the perfect destination for you? Or are you just following the crowd? There are many questions on this forum about the Cotswolds, but we rarely see questions about Malvern Hills, Dedham Vale or Chiltern Hills. Is there really a reason tourists are not visiting them as much? Especially if you want to see how "the real English" live, it seems like a good idea to visit a less touristy area. (Although though be fair, if finding out how "the real English" live is important, you should probably visit a London suburb.)

What brings you to the Cotswolds? Have you done a lot of reading on England and ended up on the conclusion that the Cotswolds is the perfect destination for you?

I think this is the perfect response to many a travel query (insert any destination, country.)

"You will return." That's simply untrue for the vast majority of people with limited means.

The truth is not everyone can make annual trips to Europe, and for many it's one trip and a trip of a lifetime, so of course one is going to get as much bang for the buck as possible.

Not everyone can afford weeks in Europe at a leisurely pace. If you have a job with limited vacation, or responsibilities at home, perhaps a week is the best you can do, and of course you want to pack in as much as possible in a limited amount of time.

Now I have mentioned that Versailles or the Coliseum in July when it's 95 degrees and jam-packed is not exactly fun unless you like sweating through your clothes.

But I don't think the way to "get the most bang for the buck" is to sleep in as many different cities as you can in the time you have available, or to see a tiny bit of the maximum number of places during the trip at the expense of many, many hours on buses and trains (not to mention all the time spent unpacking and repacking). Surely you see more if you spend less time relocating (unless you're traveling through the Alps or the Norwegian fjords or the like).

I love variety in my itineraries, but I like for new travelers to be aware they have options that don't involve traveling so many miles. Less money spent on transportation could make it possible to take the next trip sooner.

I think most posters on this forum sincerely try to be helpful to anyone asking questions about an itinerary. We’re each coming from our own perspective of what worked or didn’t work well on past trips - great to get a variety of answers!. I tend to move locations much more often than some on this forum, so my answers reflect that option more than others. If I see they only have listed large cities, I will suggest adding a smaller one, also. For instance, my husband & I enjoyed Salzburg more than Munich when we did the GAS tour. But, if this is stated as a “once in a lifetime trip”, I will absolutely suggest taking a RS tour because they will receive so much more than trying to it a plan themselves for a first trip to Europe.

An acquaintance told me yesterday that she is going to Greece this year for the first time. I haven’t been there and immediately suggested the forum because she would receive a lot of great answers & ideas.

What Dick said!

I would agree with others who think most posters on this forum sincerely try to be helpful. To Jeans point- “I haven’t been there (Greece) and immediately suggested the forum because she would receive a lot of great answers and ideas.” Bingo! I love to plan a trip and have used many resources over the years. I use a lot of “tools.” One of my resources is this forum! I have discovered my “go to’s.” The best info came for trips to Greece, Italy, Central Europe, Spain, Croatia, Portugal, France… And what is rewarding is to be able to “give back” to those who have graciously given me their expertise!

"You will return." That's simply untrue for the vast majority of
people with limited means.

Exactly, BigMikeWestByGodVirginia. We don't know everyone's circumstances, and we can't assume that they will return. Maybe their finances or health won't allow them to. Maybe they prefer to visit different countries each time. Maybe they don't really want to travel regularly, so this is their big "hurrah" to see some things they've always wanted to see.

Of course, pretty much everyone here is motivated by a desire to be helpful. However, it isn't helpful to make assumptions about others' circumstances and give unsolicited advice. It's patronizing.

Well if someone wants the straight travel facts without a side of human personality (i.e. humor, unsolicited advice, questioning) perhaps an AI Chatbot would be more suitable than a public forum.

Although I was slightly appalled a few weeks back when a mother of two was asking for advice for a first time trip to Europe with her two YA sons and the topic soon devolved into a psychoanalysis of the mother's desire to accompany here two sons on the trip.

Headed to Paris on March 26 for my 4th trip. First time was a 4-night solo trip in March 2002. After 9/11, life ahead was uncertain and I wasn't going to die without visiting Paris, though I'd been on 4 group trips to Europe with my Mom when I was in my 30s. Get RS guide and go to the two pages with the top sites. You'll need timed tickets for the Louvre and recommended for the d'Orsay. Plan to buy at least a 2-day a museum pass and knock off whatever you can in those two days. I've been to every site on the list over three trips, but will go to the Louvre and d'Orsay on this trip with a friend who hasn't been there. Plan a whole day for Versailles and get the skip the line ticket, arrive before it opens, get the audio guide, and scoot ahead of the mobs of group tours. Visit the garden. I walked all the way to the very end (about a 5-mile roundtrip including around the lakes and canal), the Grand Trianon, Petit Trianon, etc. You may never get back. Live is full of what-ifs. You'll kick yourself months later because you didn't want to spend 28 euros to go to the top of the Eiffel Tower. I've enjoyed unplanned days when I just walked and walked from museum to garden and neighborhoods in between. The night scene around the Tower is like a big party, with the tower light up with flashing lights on the hour. Best view from across the river at the Trocadero. Get a made-to-order crepe from a food truck at the base for about 5 euros. As good as in any creperie for way more. Have fun and don't get overstressed. BTW, this trip, we are staying in a timeshare nearing Disneyland (not going there) and renting a car to trip to Normandy, Reims, Verdun, and Chartres, with a day or two in the city.

A novel approach might be to research and read and then go where you have the most interest and not worry about others belittling you because their taste differs.

I suspect that everyone that tells you to skip the Eiffel Tower has either been which is how they developed their opinion (which has little to do with how you will react upon visiting it), or hasn't been in which case they are ill-informed.

Just go, enjoy and don't stress.

Every traveler is inexperienced on their first visit to a location, even if tgey have been on 100 trips to other locations.

I agree with Mister E.

I've been to the Eiffel Tower at ground level and liked it, but in what may be a heretical statement see no need to go up it. That's me, I'm not going to say to anybody else don't go up it. If I was in Paris tomorrow there are other things I would do than go back there, unless I happened to be passing.
Likewise the Santa Justa lift in Lisbon where the lines are always a mile long, and probably justifiably so.

In London I've never been on the London Eye, and have no urge to do so. But I would do, and have, gone a long way out of my way for the IfS cable car (even on a transfer from Euston to Victoria which somehow went past the Cable Car). If someone asked me about the London Eye I might suggest the cable car to them but no way will I say avoid the London Eye. It's their money, their time, That's my interests. And Londoners please don't scream at me for that.
Likewise the Cotswolds- I've been there, got the T shirt. There are lesser known parts I would be quite happy to go back to. But, for my tastes, exactly what attracts so many people, puts me off. It's too twee, too busy, too chocolately boxy. For me there are other places, very close by that I would prefer and which people don't go to. I won't tell anybody don't go there- indeed will help them to the maximum of my ability to do so- while maybe SUGGESTING alternatives.

This reminds me of some self-appointed "influencer," not on this board, who always reminded people that she was a "traveler" and not a "tourist" and then proceeded to suggest everyone skip Rome because it was full of tourists.

Having worked in the tour industry for awhile, I can tell you there are many people who want to make the one trip somewhere just so they can tell their friends or say they have been to XXX. It's about checking off boxes.

Some don't like to travel, others just can't afford it. Many would rather take a cruise or go to a beach and relax for their vacation than continue to visit new places. My cousin and I would argue this. He didn't consider running around a vacation. He wanted to "travel" to a beach somewhere and relax. Perhaps one or two outings. I tried that once. After three days I was climbing the walls.

... many people who want to make the one trip somewhere just so they can tell their friends or say they have been to XXX. It's about checking off boxes.

My first thought has always been "but did you actually see it!"

I am 75 years old and first traveled out of North America when I took a job in Saudi Arabia in 1981. Since then I have visited 81 foreign countries.

Visiting Europe the first couple of times, I had a list already planned. I wanted to do Rome, Florence, Venice, Naples Area, Munich, Salzburg, Paris, London, etc.

Going to places like these and seeing the Roman Forum/Coliseum and the St. Peter's/Sistine Chapel were a must and I wasn't disappointed. Do a canal ride in Venice, walk the streets of Pompeii, the eiffel tower, Notre Dame.

The more that I traveled, and pretty much had covered the historical and key places, I expanded my list to take in scenic places, like the fjords of Norway, Cruise around the Horn of South America or an Alaskan cruise. Yes, and going through the Panama Canal.

When people post questions and ask for advise on this forum, they usually indicate if they are going for the first time or are well traveled. If they don't, you can usually tell by how they phrase their questions.

I always try to give plenty of options and especially to highlight the things that I very much enjoyed. I try to help, but not to press too hard with my opinion.

Some people want to visit museums, some not so much. Some what to hike or do a bike tour. Some what to do the budget tour with limited funds, others what a five star tour. It helps if they say that.

Frank II, I agree but to each their own. Relaxing on a beach would be torture for me, but it's the bees knees for many others.

BB, exactly. There are so many places to visit that I can't foresee revisiting the same place twice, with an exception or two. I'd rather go someplace new.

On another note, I still don't quite understand the appeal of an internet influencer.

Sure, go see the big tourist sights/cities if that's what you like. They are worth it and not to be looked down upon. But don't devalue lesser known places as "no name" wastes of your time and money. Liking the one doesn't make the other a bad choice.

People will recommend places they enjoy, and experience matters. In the end I value travel advice from people with years of
feet on the ground experience over those who've been to Europe twice.

There is though I think some showboating of experience sometimes - best not to forget that just because you are now over Colmar or Rothenburg (I'm not) others still like touristy towns.

Along this same line, I think we need to keep in mind that some people love cold weather and that a winter vacation is perfect for them. I have read enough comments to not go to such and such in winter. For us, we love winter and the cold/short days do not bother us. We would have missed out on so much if we did not listen to ourselves.

Like AMann, we also like to travel fast. Always have, and probably will until we can't. That may not be a good fit for everyone, but it is our style and it works for us.

I remember my first trip to Europe. I was burnt out at work at needed a vacation. I told my clients I would be gone for nearly a month and they wouldn't be charged any retainer that month.

I decided to take a tour to get a "feel" of Europe figuring I'd be back at some point. I did my research and found the exact tour I wanted. I then researched flights and made a reservation for my flights.

This was in the day many, many, many years before anyone had heard of something called the internet. I still had to go to a travel agent to get ticketed. So I take all my information to a travel agent figuring it shouldn't take long and that person would make an easy commission.

So, off I go to a nearby travel agent. I show her everything and the conversation goes like this:

TA: You don't want to do this.

Me; Why not?

TA: You want to take a cruise.

Me: No I don't.

TA: Sure you do. You'll have a much better time

Me: No I won't.

This went on for 10 minutes with her trying to convince me to take a cruise. Finally, frustrated, I got up and left.

I went to another TA. I showed him everything and he thanked me for making his job so easy. While he was confirming my tour and information, I told him the story of the first TA. He told me that the first TA would have made a bigger commission had I taken a cruise. Instead she got nothing.

The cruise was the biggest kickback Frank

I love gathering up lots of advice, from this forum and from friends, as we are planning our trips. That personal input adds texture to our guidebooks, and is one of the most fun parts of trip planning. I tell myself "you'll be back," whether or not I will, to reduce the frantic feeling that I have to do it all.

My least favorite travel advice comes when we're back:
Friend: Did you go to x?
Me: Nope
Friend: oh no, you should have! Why not?
Me: Well, the Way Back Machine is broken, so I'm stuck.
Or, we simply lie and say, "yes, we sure did, it was fab!"
(Disclosure: we really DIDN'T go to the Louvre on our recent trip to Paris)

I feel like there's maybe a couple of things at play here.

First, tone & the written word. While a responder may feel like they are using their experience/knowledge to provide a "have you considered..." answer, an asker may read it as "that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and here's what you need to do". Tied into this is a desire to keep posts short. Both asker and responder may not provide the WHYs for their choices in an attempt to keep word count down (or not realizing the usefulness of that information), which can then result in some of the issues already addressed above.

Second, many of us have navigated here due to some level of belief in the Rick Steves philosophy, which often projects an Assume You'll Be Back and/or the Gimmelwald vs Grindelwald themes. So, I think that may be why that is often part of the responses. We've at least sipped the Kool Aid.

So, as with all parts of life, let's keep our minds and hearts open and just try our best.

Re Grindelwald va Gimmelwald, Grindelwald has its charms. The climbers' graves in the cemetery are amazing, they geranium chalets like it's a competitive Olympic sport, the rodelbahn is a cow slaloming thrill, gondola station is a fabulous modern transit hub, great views of dramatic big mountain
mountain, working agriculture on sunny slopes above town where there are lovely rambles through woods and farms. And a very good not crushingly expensive pizza joint with nice staff. There's nothing particularly wrong with Grindelwald, other than it's quite nice and fairly convenient to get to so a lot of people go there.

I'd stay elsewhere (Wengen is my choice), but wouldn't call (or imply) anyone a mindless rube for centering on Grindelwald. You can spend your Grindelwald time in tacky souvenir shops, or you can walk a mile, see a German language sign for cheese tasting, knock on a quiet farmhouse door and have every bit as "real" an experience as Gimmelwald.

Some folks are not able to travel to Europe or parts unknown every year or twice a year. The resources just aren’t there. So a trip overseas maybe every three or four years. And that’s just fine. For myself I’m going to places that I want to explore and want to revisit because it’s beautiful there or more interesting than the place I live. Not a crime.

Just help people when they ask for help.

Sorry for not replying sooner, been busy then had a nasty ice storm.
Anyway to address a few things. I am not pointing fingers at anyone and most on here are pretty nice (hence why I have stayed) but we do get a bit of attitude creeping in once in a while and other forums and web sites and you tube channels are even worse. As much as I like RS his advice to assume you will be back has to be the most miss interpreted advice of recent times as far as travel goes.
I live in Michigan and I travel to West Virginia a lot to ether relax, go rafting or do research into trains/coal mines and I have seen and done pretty much everything in both Michigan and WV. And while I spend my time going “off the beaten path” I would not recommend skipping the New River Gorge National Park in WV to do a two hour each way hike after a one hour each way drive to see the foundations of an old Coal Tipple. (Unless they are really into coal tipples) but I have been there enough to do both things.
As to why I want to go to the Cotswold’s I love the architectural style. A local Museum (Greenfield Village) has a cottage relocated from there and it has always fascinated me. I had roughed out a design for a house based on a photo from there. Much of my travels has to do with Architecture. My bucket list is full of Buildings (or the remains thereof) more than anything else.
I thought I was the only person that has been to Paris more than once and never set foot in the Louvre. If a museum has something I want to see I go see that but I seldom just wonder around your average “art” type museum. I am one of those.. in see what I want to see and back out types. If I lived in Paris I would probably have been to all of them at some point but I would rather walk around the City or go up the Eiffel Tower (someday I will get to the top of it..) or what have you then fight the crowd in a museum to stand 25 feet away from the Mona Lisa with 500 other people half of them between me and the painting. But to each their own.

I don’t tend to spend much time worrying about food or eating while in Europe. But I have a friend that spends a couple hours most days getting “a good dinner”. Still as much as I don’t care one way or the other about food, and I tend to visit the more “touristy” locations one of the best nights I have had in Europe was in a little restaurant in Avignon. It had outdoor seating and had a TV with a soccer game on that the locals seamed to care about. (It was shoulder season). My dad and I ordered dinner and the locals figured out we were from America, by the time dinner was done we were the center of a large group of locals that were explaining why one of the teams playing was more important then the other. We spent a couple hours just sitting around and talking with the locals. Answering thier questions about the US and discussing France and Avignon. It was a great evening and very “Rick Steves” kind of non tourist thing. And very enjoyable but I would not have given up seeing the Popes palace for it. But everyone is entitled to thier own opinion.

Which is really my point with this topic. Yes YOU may not like a certain style of travel and you may have different priorities but that doesn’t make other necessarily wrong.

I started thinking about this topic because I have a friend that wants to take his mother to Europe. It will be her one and only trip I am pretty sure and frankly I doubt my friend will be back again. And it is hard to tell someone that won’t get back to Europe that they should skip Paris and London to spend more time in Italy. Or whatever. My problem is that they want me to go with them but I have been to most these locations they want to see before and have trouble paying to see them again when I have so much more to see. And so little budget for travel.

I guess my point is/was you have to consider the people involved before you can say what is best.
In the case of people that in all likelihood will not get to Europe again, then shorter stays in more locations is the only real option.

In the case of a person that takes a yearly trip somewhere in the world, then a slower multi trip approach is best.

My personal theory if you had asked was to plan for 4 trips,

1). London and Paris and Parts of France
2). Germany and Switzerland
3). Italy
4). England/Scotland
Anything beyond that would be gravy.

Trip 1 and 2 were taken a few years ago. Trip 3 was canceled when my father who was my travel partner became terminally ill.

Due to financial changes arising from a combination of my fathers illness and the mess from 2020/Covid it is looking less likely that I will get two additional trips.
So but if I have to skip one trip then trip 4 would be the one lost.

Douglas, I have always interpreted RS saying that assume you will be back, not necessarily because you actually will, but it takes the pressure off of running around like a mad person. Instead, enjoy what you can see and don’t worry about the rest.

... enjoy what you can see and don’t worry about the rest

As someone who does literally zero destination research (other than hotels and train schedules) that's my operative - miss some stuff, undoubtedly, but other than a few locations I've been incredibly happy with all my 30+ trips to Europe.

Funny that this topic kind of took a turn, and it’s original point sort of got left behind (which is fine) and I was thinking it was not a big deal, then a read a topic where a newbie got called on the carpet for using what is a relatively common nickname (at least in my section of the US) for something in Europe and yet pretty much everyone knew what the newbie was asking about…. But while one person was reasonably polite pointing out the more official name used buy most locals one or more others were not so much. In this case the newbie was ok with it but that kind of response is probably why this site sometimes has a bad reputation with some folks.
I was tempted to point a few of the posters this way… :)

Excellent post Douglas. Most of your points are spot on.

What is it that results in SOME experienced travelers looking down on newbie travelers or travelers that want to go to the most popular/busy travel destination? Because the experienced traveler has been there, done that and they don't have any special wisdom to offer about those locations.

And there are reasons the more popular locations are you know.. popular. It is because most folks want to see them. Because they are usually amazing locations to visit. Absolutely, that is why we all went in the first place

I highly doubt their are many experienced travelers who have traveled to a given locale and not at SOME-POINT visited these popular tourist spots. Who has gone to Paris and NOT visited the Eiffel Tower or Notre Dame? Probably an extreme few and half of them are not being honest.

But to hear some folks talk both on this and other forums and you would be lead to believe that experienced travelers would never stoop to visiting these attractions. And that these locations are. not worth visiting. Of course, just like we won't admit we like doing childish things because we will appear not cool.

Similar issues seem to get lost when more experienced travelers look down on someone who only spends 3 or so nights in many different locations. I cant count how many posts I have seen from someone who has made dozens of trips to Europe telling someone they simply MUST only visit 1 location a week. First time I went to Venice I was there 2 nights and one day. It was fantastic. If I had posted that on the forum, I'd still be reading the responses.

I know the argument that “you will be back” but will you? really? I suspect that most will not be back. And for many of those that will be back it will be a very limited number of trips in their life. Statistics prove your comment to be correct. Most of the people on this forum are the exception to the rule. RS preaches this, but then again he does have a business to support.

So I think we on this forum need to consider the person whom is asking for advice. If they are somewhat experienced on their 3rd trip and expect to be back 4 or 5 times more then that is different from those that have saved up for years or decades to get three weeks in Europe and short of hitting lotto probably will never be back. I wish anyone who posts would give some of that information up front. You are right, different answers for different experience.

There is after all a reason RS does the Best of Europe tours.This actually is RS's opinion on the BOE. I am sure many here would beg to differ with him!

So perhaps we need to look at things from more then one point of view. Good advice and again great observation.

Well after today, my first post, experience I wholeheartedly agree douglas. To each their own.

It certainly appears that some people dont agree with my intinerary and all the driving we will be doing in a short time. Not enough time to see "everything". Whilst we are well aware of that and would absolutely love to be in Europe longer, its not doable. Our 20+'s kids only have 3-weeks leave from work, so we are fitting in what we can. Europe has not been on my top 5 list to be honest, but due to a change in circumstances we are doing it. We have been planning it for nearly a year now and as time has gone on I have gotten more and more excited about it. One day the kids will probably go back, I hope so. As for hubby and I, we wont more than likely wont be back. There are more places in the world that I would like to explore.

Each day that we spend at a new place will be enjoyed and appreciated, however short it is. There are many in the world who will never see these places that we will be seeing, we are very lucky that we can, with our kids. As you say, time and money is limited, we are seeing what we can see, and stopping and soaking it all in at each place. Will we get to see everything? good lord no, do we want to? nup. In a perfect world we would spend our lives travelling, but alas, this is not a perfect world. To be told our trip is "ridiculous" after spending thousands of painstaking hours planning it was, to say the least, hurtful. We kiwi's love roadies, apparently some think its some kind of medieval torture lol.

As our ex-prime minister used to say, be kind.

Ongonos--That makes me sad. There was no reason for some of the replies to her.

I was also saddened to see that her posts had been removed/deleted. While her plans were aggressive, she had done all the research and was up for everything that they had planned out.

Unfortunately, it just goes full circle to the original post by Douglas..
*

What is it that results in SOME experienced travelers looking down on
newbie travelers or travelers that want to go to the most popular/busy
travel destination?

*

Asking a public travel forum naturally gives you a mixed bag of advice. One has to employ one's own judgment in flittering it out. There are a few repeat offenders on this forum who occasionally give out dubious info with a touch of snarkiness, but it happens far less here than in other forums I've been to.

Regarding the post that was deleted perhaps the OP got the info they wanted and just deleted the thread, it happens.

I applaud your courage in calling out people's attitudes. Having been to over 350 places in Europe, I would not advise someone just to go to the famous places with towers and cathedrals. Yes, those places are famous for a reason, and travel would have been wonderful 30 years ago, but many such places are so crowded, expensive, and lacking in civility toward tourists that they have been effectively ruined in my view.

The new traveler may not know what to look for in a wonderful travel experience except to see a famous tower. They may not realize there are colorful communities, great food experiences, historical places, and cultural events that make a place special and wonderful without huge throngs, long lines, haughty waiters, and sold out venues.

The answer is simple - to do more research by reading RS books or other sources to learn more to make a valuable experience that will make you want to come back for more.

Morning all, its the kiwi girl here. Just wanted to say thank you to those who supported me. It seems my account was suspended as I have been unable to post or read my messages. My post unfortunately got deleted as well which is a huge shame as 99% of people were so helpful and now I cannot go back and look at them :( Yes our trip is aggressive, but as the Aussie bloke up there says, its "our way" down here. We would love it to be longer but our 20's kids only have 3-weeks off work, so it is what it is. Hoping this account doesnt now get canned :(

Hi "Toby".
I got banned early on but got reinstated. Apparently I was encouraging people to break the law, long story and I better not tell it as I copped lots of abuse as well as the ban.

We did a big roadtrip in UK and Ireland in 2016, living in a Toyota Tarago for 6 weeks. Pace was pretty hectic at times, had the time of our lives.
I wouldn't put our itinerary up here as it would cause lots of negative comments. I would probably
get banned again if I mentioned some of our campsites.
Just as a bit of a teaser I will mention our last day in Ireland though. We had to catch the Dublin to Holyhead (Wales) ferry that evening. We had camped the night at a beachside caravan park north of Dingle. 400 odd kms from Dublin. We had a run/walk/swim at the beach before brekkie.
We made several stops along the way. Arrived at the port in plenty of time. The ferry arrived at Holyhead around midnight. We drove about 10 kms out of Holyhead and parked our van on some cliffs overlooking the Irish Sea. We were snoring by 1 am.
Up the next morning early and off for a brilliant day in Wales.

Hehe brilliant :) Yep, we love the fast pace. To be honest, Europe was not my first choice, I was convinced to go. Old buildings, churches etc dont really float my boat :) We however do love views, scenery, activities. Even Canada is fast paced, so I dont know how some here would cope with that.

We love roadies, its great bonding and laughing time with the kids. I dont think we would have done it when the kids were younger though, sod that. We didnt want to fly place to place without seeing the countryside, to me THAT is missing out on things!! We were originally going to drive from Paris to Florence but it was going to take too much time, so decided to fly there, and also Venice to Amsterdam, way too long so flying there as well. There is really only one day where we do a long drive, Split to Venice, thats around 7-hours, all the other drives are small at around 3hrs, easy peasy and fun :) We are used to driving much longer durations than that, a few years back we had to drive 12-hr drives to pick up our son from boarding school.

I recall someone replying on my thread (now deleted) saying they would like to talk to my daughters boyfriend when we get back and see what he thought of the rush. Given he is getting an all expense paid trip around Europe, Im pretty sure hes gonna be stoked lol. Also thanks to the person who suggested the International Drivers Permit, just got ours today :)

My siblings and I learned to travel as children. My first trip to Europe was at age 12. My first trip to Québec was age 5! My parents taught us strategies that are timeless like packing lightly so you don’t have to check in luggage, how to handle situations at airports, public transport in major cities, how to find great mom & pop restaurants, map reading, money management etc. Ok, the money management situation has changed because we no longer cash Thomas Cooke travelers checks!

We learned to avoid Europe in the summer. Why travel with the masses from North America? My first trip to Paris was in the month of February and that’s when I saw the Eiffel Tower without having to wait on long lines nor were there long lines at the Louvre, Versailles, Chartres, etc. We traveled during school vacations in March, and then, as I became an adult and held my first full-time job, I still follow the school vacation trip planning & also added autumnal trips to Europe. I love being in Europe when high culture is in season (not the summer) as I started going to ballet & the opera in Europe with my parents. I learned so much about how to make the most out of travel from them. What I’ve had to learn on my own is how to travel with wheelchair service at airports and that’s a whole other ballgame. I also saw the headaches of renting cars which is why I will never do it while in Europe.

We learned to avoid Europe in the summer. Why travel with the masses
from North America?

In the spirit of "reconsidering our point of view:" Because you work in education and that's when you have a large block of time off? Because you and/or your kids go to school and that's when they have a large block of time off? Because you want to do things that require or go best with summer weather?

Some people travel in summer. It's not a kick in the teeth :)

As kids, we traveled during spring vacation. I’ve learned from RS to take advantage of traveling in autumn when there are no mobs of tourists, culture is at its peak, the weather is delightful, and the cost of travel plummets compared with summer travel when it can be hot, crowded, & expensive. So, indeed, my point of view has changed for the better!!

How nice for you. I look forward to retirement when I can travel whenever I feel like it.

Until then I don't in the least regret the wonderful luxury of traveling to Europe in the summertime. It's absolutely worth it!

I have learned a few things reading this post.

Those that travel in the shoulder seasons (as Rick has reportedly suggested) miss out on some great beach time.

That U.S. Tourist make up less than 10% of the tourists on the streets of Europe Winter, Spring, Summer or Fall ……… so don’t plan around avoiding Americans on your travels.

That those that say avoid the world’s most significant landmarks have, they themselves, visited the world’s greatest landmarks.

That some people get as much enjoyment out of wandering lost on the streets of a European city as others do be whisked around on a RS tour bus.

We should all pay attention to the forum rules (myself included):

1. Be unfailingly polite. Comments that contain inappropriate language, harshly criticize, or disrespect others' opinions are not allowed. New travelers should be shown extra patience. If you can't write politely, this forum is not for you.
   

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/community-guidelines

Yup, just mellow out. My suggestion is to remove the box scores (number of posts) that attach to every poster.

If I see an interesting post now I reply privately and try to caveat to ask others for additional advice. Although some posts are amusing, irritating, confusing I am trying to remember that I mostly have lived overseas and should not apply my perspective to visiting overseas.

Finally……step away, delete your handle and just read here….then maybe come back or just move on w/o RS. Me, I’ll stick with his guides at a minimum.

I would have thought the percentage would be a bit higher but based on my observations in Berlin, Dresden, Vienna, and Budapest too (on those 3 days trips) , Paris , etc a lot more tourists/visitors in the summer were of other nationalities.

That's why I go to Europe in the summer given all the singular advantages of summer travel in Germany, France, Austria, etc.