London to Rome, 22 days, feedback welcome

Yours is a very busy schedule. I suggest you stay in London the first few days and maybe take a daytrip by train to Bath. It is only about 90 min each way. Skip Milan and spend more time in Florence.

I've led tours that aren't this busy. And we had a coach and driver. I'm guessing this is your first trip overseas. Haven't given much though to jet lag. It's too much. I'll agree with Swan. Skip Milan and the CT this trip. Make Stonehenge and Bath a day trip out of London. One day in Paris? Really? Add a day. There's a lot to see. Add a day to Florence. Again, a lot to see. Pisa's a quick half day trip. Remember, with travel, it never all goes according to plan. You've left no "wiggle" room.

Hi David. I agree with Swan and Frank. This is very busy and you lose time and money each time you change locations. I also advise staying in London for the first 3 days to get over jetlag and to familiarize yourself with the city. You have 20 days on the ground and you want to visit 4 countries. I would suggest cutting out two of the four countries (France and Italy, except Vicenza because you have friends there). While you want to make the most of your visit, you don't want to wear yourselves out on vacation. But if you're dead set on this, here's my suggested revised itinerary: Day 1: travel from TX to London Day 2: London Day 3: London Day 4: Daytrip to Windsor/Stonhenge Day 5: Fly to Frankfurt and train to friends Day 6: Visit with family friends (Rheinsfels and Burg Eltz) Day 7: Visit with friends Day 8: Train to Fuessen Day 9: Fuessen Day 10: Neuschwanstein and train to Vicenza to see friends Day 11: Vicenza Day 12: Vicenza Day 13: Train to Venice (or Florence, but not both) Day 14: Venice or Florence Day 15: Venice or Florence Day 16: Train to Rome Day 17: Rome Day 18: Rome Day 19: Pompeii (long day) Day 20: Rome Day 21: Rome
Day 22: Fly home

David's itinerary sounds good. I'm guessing that your teenagers would be more thrilled with Venice than Florence, so I suggest you stay in Venice rather than Florence. Take a daytrip to Florence if you like. This is something you can decide after you arrive in Venice. Leaving some unscheduled time will give you flexibility to just relax, take a daytrip, split up for the day, etc. Since your visit will be during summer, you may want to spend a couple of days where you can get into the sea. Monterosso would be my pick for a CT town if you decide to go that way. Another place to find a beach is the Lido across the canal from Venice. You can either stay at a hotel on the Lido or take a vaporetto ride from Venice. Any way you schedule yourselves, I think you would enjoy your trip more with fewer moves. Have your boys help plan the trip. Lots of kids love castles. Windsor castle is near London and would fit into the early days of your trip. Also, the Tower of London has a real castle, plus a lot of other cool stuff.

The other posters have offered excellent advice, so I will confine myself to the one question that you asked that they have not answered. While individuals differ, I think most would agree with me that the flight eastbound to Europe is the more difficult and thus the one in which a seat upgrade would be most welcome. Many people, especially those who have not traveled often to Europe, sleep poorly the night before the flight leaves. Then if you can sleep on the flight at all, you are fortunate. You typically arrive in London early morning exhausted and jet-lagged. Coming home, you both leave and arrive in daylight on the same day, which for some obscure reason seems to be less disruptive to your body than the eastbound overnight flight. At least I have found it to be so. An upgrade to business for four would be quite expensive in dollars or points....but many airlines offer 5 inches or so of extra legroom for a small extra price (United, for one), and early boarding for another fee....both, in my view, would be well worth the money.

First off, thank you! Now more questions, hehe. If you do Bath as a day trip how would you plan it it? Windsor and Stonehenge on the way to Bath, a few hours in Bath and back? Car, train, bus? My thoughts were to head out of London on landing, stopping at Windsor and Stonehenge then in Bath by mid-day. Back to London mid-day the next day, we would do Ceremony of the Keys that night. Day two in London is British Museum, London Eye, and a play. Day three is the Tower, Big Ben, double decker tour, and Westminster Abby before a trip on the Eurostar. Emotionally detaching from Milan is hard, we want to see the Last Supper (it was high on our priority lists) – even if it mean a long day trip; however, if we drop CT we can do Florence as a day trip, then to Milan then to Rome.
I've done a bit of international travel, mostly to the East; 3-4 times a year to Singapore. I consider that trip rough and the few times I've gone to or thru Europe it wasn't too bad but I think my wife would agree with you. My thoughts on jet lag were to sleep on the plane and the excitement of the trip would be enough for the boys to make it through (what I thought was) a light day.

I have two days in Paris (real days, we come in the night before –Day 5 and leave the day after -Day 8) but I put them on the same line in the initial post, sorry for the confusion. Frank, Where would you add wiggle room? I don't consider the day trips high risk (I might be wrong here). London to Paris is tightish but Paris to Frankfurt is a whole day. Frankfurt to Fussen is a whole day, CT (or Florence or Milan) to Rome is a whole day. Sarah, we're pretty set (hard to say dead set) on 4 countries in 20 days (you should have seen the list my family came up with to start LOL). On your revised itinerary you have an extra day in Fussen (day 9 in your post), do I need that? I'm planning on coming in from Frankfurt (Kelsterbach actually), spending the night, then the castle, the luge and off.
I have family friends in Vicenza so would like to use that for a base for a few nights to both see them and avoid moving for a few days so anything I can day trip to from there would be great.

Swan, you are correct, the boys want to see Venice more than Florence. I would like to see a handful of things in Florence but perhaps we should day trip to Florence from Vicenza. CT was supposed to be our sea stop but it hasn't garnered the excitement I thought it would. Lido might be an excellent choice being close to Vicenza.
Roe I agree with your logic. Sleeping on the night flight to London would be an awesome choice. We could wake up and go and the jet lag from coach would be suffered while at work when I get back and not on vacation. My struggle is personal. I like the thought of hitting it hard and having a really nice flight back to recover and I know my boys will ask me why we didn't do Bus on the way back or both (LOL). The upgrades won't be too bad – I have miles from my Singapore trips but I can't do both ways for four. I want to go American so I can use miles but I don't think they have an economy plus option or I would spring for that for sure.

So maybe something like this (I added one day)? Day 1 travel from TX to London (land morning of day 2) Day 2 London Day 3 day trip to Bath (Windsor, Stonehenge on the way, car?) Day 4 London Day 5 London (evening Eurostar to Paris) Day 6 Paris Day 7 Paris Day 8 train to Frankfurt Day 9 Frankfurt (Kelsterbach) Day 10 visit with family friends (Rheinsfels and Burg Eltz) Day 11 Train to Fussen Day 12 Neuschwanstein, train to Vincenza (stay with Family Friends) Day 13 Day trip to Venice Day 14 Vincenza Day 15 Day trip to Lido Day 16 Train to Florence Day 17 Florence Day 18 Florence to Rome (Pisa on the way) Day 19 Rome Day 20 Pompeii (long day) Day 21 Rome Day 22 Rome
Day 23 Fly Home

David I understand your wish to get as much out of your European trip next year as possible. Of course you want to visit all the places on your original itinerary, show the boys as much of Europe as possible, and visit your friends. I can't quite keep track of all the places you want to visit but I think it is 15 with the day trips included. And that is out of 21 days on the ground. Even the bus tours don't hit that many places and they have a driver and guide! Below are some ways for you to see how much travel time between destinations. First, Pull out a map of Western Europe to help you visualize the distances you will be traveling. Great you have ordered guide books and maps! In addition, the steps below will help you see the amount of travel time for your proposed itinerary. * get a paper or online calendar (wincalendar.com to make it easy to change) * put in proposed international flights. Count the 1st day as a recovery day & the last day as a flight day (pack, check out, time to airport, 2 + hrs. waiting). Note: Do not make the return flight before mid day or you will be up before dawn! * with the suggestions you have received, plot the best route with your destinations. Add to calendar. * now figure out the travel times. For the train, go to http://www.bahn.de, English version. This will give you the actual time on the train. Add to the calendar. * below are factors most people leave out when figuring out their actual travel times. ** pack, check out of the hotel ** hotel to train station time ** wait at the station time (buy your tickets from US or purchase at least the day before) ** train time ** train station to hotel ** check in, unpack ** get oriented, get lost
** Add all to the calendar. Continued below.

Continued from above. Now, how much time do you have in each destination? Is this what you expected? Is there enough time to do & see what you wanted? You are spending more time traveling than you are sightseeing. This costs money, time, and disgruntled travelers. Trying to get a 15 yr. old at the crack of dawn too many days in a row will be a trial for both of you. Keep us posted on what you decide as you struggle with your itinerary. Here is a suggestion to delete one of the outliers of your trip. The furthest distance from the rest of your trip. Either London or Rome. London is a relatively easy / short trip from the US. Then you can visit Bath, etc. and maybe Ireland in a shorter trip. Then you can concentrate on Paris, Germany and Italy. But this only works if you do not add any other destinations. Add several other days to your main cities and perhaps some countryside in Tuscany as down time. Good luck as you work with your wants and then reality! It's hard. Bobbie

Seriously ,, your trip sounds exhausting,, and you will be enjoying the view of many train stations.. travel between places eats alot of sightseeing time up. Two whole days for PARIS,, well I personally think thats too tight,, my kids loved Paris, my 14 yr old boys loved the Catacombs , Invalids Army Museum, Eiffel Tower, etc etc,, and what about a daytrip to Versailles, or a bike tour,, or so many other things.. Give Paris another day,, I would so skip Pisa( yes I have been there) and Milan( but understand why you don't want to) , and frankly Florence.. Two days for Rome, thats a whirlwind too.. Guess I am not much help,, I just can't help it though, it seems like a Bataan Death March ... Remember , July is going to be hot and crowded everywhere, and you will be rushing rushing rushing.. Oh, I would choose to fly business class there,, and arrive in decent shape,, flying bus class does not affect your jetlag,, your body clock will still be off, but , it does affect your travel fatique,, so better to arrive a bit more rested,, especially with your schedule. You can sleep when you get home.

David, If you were to try to do Windsor, Stonehenge and Bath all in one day, you would be looking at over 5 hours of driving, plus the time to pick up and drop off the car (which tends to take more time than you think it will in our experience), which doesn't leave a whole lot of time at each place to see anything. You might want to skip Windsor, or do it another day, and get a bus tour to Stonehenge and Bath so you don't have to spend the energy driving. I'm not familiar with the bus tours available (we've traveled to Bath by car and train, but never as a day trip), but other posters may be. Days 2 and 3 in London sound busy but doable. Be sure to get to the Tower first thing in the morning to try to avoid the crowds. Also be aware of when the services are at Westminster Abbey since you cannot tour during those times. You might also want to plot out what you consider essential to see in the British Museum since you can easily spend the whole day there. Good luck as you plan.

What do you want to consider regarding wiggle room. Ah, the one thing every European traveler, well at least those to France and Italy, at some point in their travels encounter. It's called.....are you ready......a strike. Yep, just when you planned that train trip with a tight schedule, a one day strike will be called. They are very common. Your itinerary is what every first time traveler to Europe does. They schedules a very tight trip. You want to see everything. (and most nevrer listen to Rick Steves when he says "plan to return.") So, I say go with your trip as is. Just plan for some rest time when you get back. You'll need it. You will be exhausted. If you want to do Windsor, Stonehenge and Bath in one day, and you want time to actually see anything, your choices will be car or tour. Forget the train. As someone else pointed out, have you actually looked at the train schedules and the routes? As an example, you say you will do Florence as a day trip and then go back to Vicenza. Are you aware that your train from Vicenza to Rome goes through Florence. It would be smarter to stay the night in Florence than double back. From Florence you're only about 90 minutes from Rome.

Here's my suggestions based on your latest itinerary........skip Rome and fly out of Venice or Milan. Add an extra day to Paris. From Frankfurt to Fuessen you'll most likely have to go through Ulm or Munich. There's some neat things to see in those towns, consider making a pit stop there. My concern for your schedule is the Fuessen to Vicenza portion. Seeing the castles in the morning, then taking the train down puts you there probably pretty late. You could then base your stay in Vicenza or Venice (if you don't want to stay with friends too long), and hit the towns around there. Bolzano has the ice man museum, it's fascinating. Trieste, Verona, and other towns around there have great sights, besides doing Venice for more than one day. Also, the beach towns of Caorle, Bibione, and Jesolo are a great way to just have fun at a beach. If you're set on Rome, then just hit two days in Venice, then fly or train straight to Rome, but don't stop anywhere, your time is better spent in Rome.

David - I have to agree with the other posters here. This trip is going to be very busy and you haven't allowed yourself much down time. If you're going to give Paris only 2 days, squeezed between England and Germany, I would say cut it. I understand your desire to try to see as much as possible but I don't recommend this kind of whirlwind trip. A few years ago a friend and I planned a crazy itinerary (3 days in Paris, a daytrip to Chartres, a stop in Ghent on the way to 3 days in Amsterdam, 2 days in Goettingen in Germany, 1 day in Berlin) and it was insane. Our luggage got lost, my friend got food poisoning, we didn't stop in Ghent because she didn't feel well, the day in Berlin was a total waste of time... What I'm trying to say is that sh*t happens and you have to plan for it, build it into your trip, or your vacation can go downhill very quickly. Please reconsider cutting Paris and also Rome from your itinerary. You will get back to Europe.

What a fantastic trip for you and your family. I am in the minority here, apparently, but I think your new itinerary looks fine., and very appropriate for travel with teens. (We have made 5 trips to Europe with our teens, usually moving every 2 or 3 days, and all have been very enjoyable for everyone.) Go as early in July as you can to avoid Olympics issues, and for other reasons I will try to mention. If I read it correctly, you have seven bases to stay, and six "travel days", most of which are fairly short (3 or 4 hours). The exception is Füssen to Vicenza, which is almost 9 hours. You might consider making that on the night train (City Night Line) which goes from Munich, arriving in Vicenza at 5:18 in the morning). Or break it up with an intermediate stop along the way. I have some comments about the London portion, especially Bath-Stonehenge-Windsor in a day. Don't. You will not do justice to any of them. When you put a place on your itinerary, think about what you are going to do there, when is the best time of day for that particular sight, how long it will take, and how much it will cost. On family trips, we try to limit our "expensive" sights (40+ pounds or 50+ euros) to one a day. You have at least two that day, if you are going to Windsor to visit the castle. And no time to do it all. I'll make an alternate suggestion---to be continued. . .

Oh dear. David, it is obvious from your postings that you like to be in control and I don't want to say anything which may cause you to go outside your comfort zone. It appears to me that your European travel style is to drive by and check off the list, and if that is so more power to you and I will do everything I can to help you do that. If you actually want to visit places in a way that you can do some detail, let us know - but as others have said some things will have to come out. Recently you added additional questions which I will have a go at. If you do Bath as a day trip how would you plan it it? A whole day train trip, driving is possible but not easy to park (how are you on British roads with a small manual right hand drive car?). Anything less than a day will not be enough to see the top sights unless you just drive by. Windsor and Stonehenge on the way to Bath, a few hours in Bath and back? That would be nice but even driving past all 3 in one day is nearly impossible. If you want to get out of the car I can't see it. My thoughts were to head out of London on landing, stopping at Windsor and Stonehenge then in Bath by mid-day.
Who is driving? After a sleepless night, 6 hour time shift, jetlag? Yes 99% of people get jetlag even is business class (voice of experience speaking) ... to be continued ...

... more ... An overnight in Bath may be good, but two nights would give you time to see Bath, Salisbury Cathedral, maybe Winchester, Stonehenge. Back to London mid-day the next day, we would do Ceremony of the Keys that night. You will need reservations Day two in London is British Museum, London Eye, and a play. That should work. View the website of the huge British Museum and plan which rooms you want to see. Even there all day you won't see it all. Day three is the Tower, Big Ben, double decker tour, and Westminster Abb{e}y before a trip on the Eurostar. If you do the HoHo tour the first full day in London, it will knit together the things you go back to and see from the ground. I don't see the advantage of doing the bus tour on the last day. Make sure that you are at St Pancras International in plenty of time. There is a strictly enforced minimum 30 minutes check in deadline. If you are late you don't go. we want to see the Last Supper
You MUST have reservations - these are not easy to get, especially in summer. Only 15 people go in every 15 minutes. Happy planning.

Well, I hate it when I write a long message, it says I still have letters left, but get the error message and lose the message. I don't have time to re-write the whole but will just summarize: You can't do Bath, Stonehenge and Windsor in the same day. Instead, visit Windsor in the middle of your London stay, maybe going late in the day and having dinner in a pub by the river after you see the town and castle. Or make it a two-day sidetrip as Nigel suggests. Or follow your original plan of renting a car and heading directly to Bath when you land at Heathrow. We have done this ourselves, so I know it is safe and doable. We did not visit Stonehenge on the way and neither should you. Instead, book a Stone Circle Access tour (actually a ticket for a one-hour visit inside the ropes, among the stones) and go either in the evening after visiting Bath, or early the next morning. This means you would stay someplace near Stonehenge, such as Salisbury (which we much prefer to Bath, which apart from the Roman Baths left me underwhelmed.) Information on the Inner Circle Access is here: http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/daysout/properties/stonehenge/stone-circle-access/ Visits are before and after regular hours, not available during the last two weeks of June (solstice time), and never on Tuesday or Wednesday morning. You need to reserve WAY in advance (like soon) and if you want to go, figure out the date and time and plan your flight around that. I highly recommend the business class ticket on the way over if you can manage it. We have done that the last 2 trips, and it makes your first day so much more enjoyable---you don't lose it to fatigue.

Fantastic info! I've started an hour by hour calendar to layout the trip and hopefully resolve some of the timing issues that have been identified. I'll color code travel time so that it stands out very easy for me to see and then post here to get realistic feedback. The maps and guide books are due in Tuesday night so I'll use them and the train web site to try and get a timeline together. I am a bit of a planner, hehe.
We intent to one bag it with backpacks (not camping backpacks) so I hope that helps with ease of movement. The boys are both scouts and the oldest and I will be going to Philmont (2 week back packing trip in New Mexico) 2 weeks after we get home. We are looking at rail passes, I think 10 days will cover us from Paris to Rome. I'd love to avoid the car in London to Bath so will look into the suggestions made here (I read a comment on the RS site that said if you land in London heading to Windsor was an easy way out of the city the first day).

There is no doubt that this trip is a bit hectic. We'll skip certain things for sure (we'll do the Louvre but not d'orsay). Part of the purpose of the trip is to wet the boys taste and hopefully have them planning on returning in the future (study abroad, exchange programs, trip during college). That being said all feedback is welcome, so fire away Nigel I don't want to plan for things that aren't realistic. I'll take responsibility for the trip but I'm not scared to get input. I knew Frankfurt to Fussen was a long day but I thought Fussen to Vicenza was shorter (I was using the rail planning guide maps for estimated times) . I'll have to work on this. We'll be in London about July 2nd to the 5th so I hope to avoid the influence of the Olympics. That also sounds like a great time for the Stone Circle Access Tour. Since we'll be in London Mon- Thu evening we'll have to work the access tour in.

If you want to go to Windsor immediately upon landing at Heathrow, catch a bus to Windsor from the airport bus station. You don't need to go into London first. You will be experiencing jetlag and have luggage with you. If you want to explore Windsor you will need to find a place to park your luggage. If you haven't consulted a travel book yet, by all means do so. Many details are covered in a good guide book.

One more vote to go business class on the way over so you have a better shot at some sleep. The first time I did this , we got upgraded for free on the way back. Woo-hoo! Alas, it's never happened again but it was great that first time. Ceremony of the Keys is wonderful. Can't remember if you have the Imperial War Museum on your list of London activities, but we really enjoyed it, probably even more than the Cabinet War Rooms . Have a great time with all the planning and an even better time on your trip!

David, An hour by hour plan is a good idea (I'm a planner, too), just remember not to schedule too tightly because things just don't always run smoothly. You'll almost undoubtedly have to scrap things along the way, so you might want to prioritize what you want to see each day and know what you're willing to cut. Before we took our boys to England and Paris (when they were 12 and 17) we each made a list of the top 3 things we wanted to see and I made sure those things were the top priorities on their respective days. BTW, Paris for 2 days is a good taste. We had only 1-1/2 days on our trip, but still saw plenty. I wouldn't want to do it that way again (my hope is to rent an apartment for a week next time), but I'm glad we did it that way rather than not at all. My younger son fell in love with the French language on that trip and studied it in high school and now college. We told him he can be our translator on our next trip. ;-)

You might want to look at the itinerary for RS "Best of Europe in 21 Days" tour elsewhere on this web site just to see where it takes folks. I took that tour some years ago and seeing all that in such a short period of time was mind boggling. I came home and could not even remember where I had taken half of my pictures.

Do you realize you are staying with friends for only a couple of days? Have to talked to your friends about your travel schedule and see if they will be home while you are traveling? I would maximize the time spent with friends as they can suggest places to see and you may be able to get a free place to stay or free meals. :-} Also if you want to spend any amount of time with them I would stay longer on those stops. I have found that staying with friends for a while can be more fun and more meaningful then trying to hit very major tourist destination.
Just me 2 cents

David, I think the operative word there may be "see". If you want to actually properly experience them it may take a wee tad longer.

I'm still waiting on the guide books (Tuesday nite). I've been collecting info for a while here and there. I was re-reading some of my notes and I guess one of the reasons I thought I could do Windsor/Bath/Stonehenge was because of the following comment I collected off the RS site (I can't remember where I got it from here, I see a comment I like and I copy it into my trip file). "The Windsor Castle/Bath/Stonehenge tour offered by Evan Evans Tours (www.evanevanstours.co.uk) is a great value and is an efficient way to see these three sights)." Any comments on this tour? GBP74 each. Leaves Victoria Coach Station, Gates 1-5 at 8:45am. Returns about 8pm. I assumed I could do all three and stay in Bath. (I added the comment here becuase we've talked about it a bit but if I should have put in "to the North" let me know, thanks!)

I'm not sure "efficient" is what you want when it comes to visiting/experiencing Windsor, Stonehenge, and Bath-especially Stonehenge. "Efficient" there would mean, I fear, being herded with lots of other people in a lap outside the ropes, each attached to his audio tour device. Lots of people "see" Stonehenge that way, and most of them come away unimpressed. 74 pounds pp (64 for the kids) may be a good value, as it includes admission to the "paid" sites and transport (what about lunch? I didn't see that but maybe it is included?) But it sounds like a long and tiring day, especially for kids who may not appreciate the significance of what they are seeing. Frankly, I was pretty underwhelmed by Bath. The Roman baths are cool, but you are actually going to Rome too, so take that into consideration in deciding whether to visit Bath. I still maintain that if you want to see Stonehenge, the Inner Circle Access is the way to go, and you could organize that on your own as part of an overnight trip, seeing Bath and Salisbury as well. Windsor can be visited on a different day when you have more time and energy for it. Go late in the day, visit the castle, then take a walk along the Thames in the cool of the evening, admire the canal boats, and have dinner at a riverside pub. That's my idea of a good visit to Windsor. There is so much to see and do in and around London. It is tempting to want to "do it all", but you have to be careful or you'll end up with a superficial sampling and not really seeing any of it in a meaningful way. FWIW, our kids' favorite things were the Tower of London, British Museum (went several times), running in the parks (St. james, Green, and Hyde), and watching the changing of the Horse Guards (not the Buckingham Palace change, which was way too crowded to see anything.)

Thanks! We've discussed dropping Bath and now my oldest is very, very interested in the after hours Stonhenge tour. It looks like the after hours tour is at 6:30 and 8pm. The site closes at 4pm. If we do the afterhours tour, what is the best way to get there and back? Is it worth it all to go during normal business hours (if we do the after hours tour)?

I'm glad to hear that! I believe you can go earlier, while the site is "open", if you have an Inner Circle Access ticket for the same day, but let me check on that. If so, you could arrive late and do a quick lap just to whet your appetite, then return later for your privileged entrance among the stones. As for getting there. . . it is not easy on your own, but there are several possibilities: rent a car for the day, as you have already considered (pick it up somewhere outside London for your sanity!); train to Salisbury (a lovelytown well worth a vist) and taxi from there (very expensive if you are going out there twice). Or, assuming it stays light quite late in early July, you could do as my son and I did a few years back: we took the train to Saoisbury and rented bikes to ride out to Stonehenge. It was a pleasant ride, I think around 11 km, on a winding back road. We stoopped for lunch at a pub on the way (Wheatsheaf Tavern in Middle Woodford.)