Logistics in traveling between Fr, Netherlands, Ger and Italy

Lots of question - Lets see if I can handle a couple.

Airlines prices are all over the place because some computer somewhere is trying to determine demand and charge the highest price at the given moment. A $300 increase is not unusual. It could be $200 less next week or $500 higher. It will take an enormous amount of luck to buy the cheapest ticket. Partly because people see a low price and expect it go lower and it doesn't. You need to determine a comfortable price for yourself and buy it. Then don't look back. Like buying stock. But first decided where you are going.

One way you keep costs low is to keep your frequency and travel distances short. With 16 days I would consider four or maybe five locations. Get a good map, put some pins in the cities you want to visit and start figuring your travel line. That will help determine you and entry and exit cities. Open-jaw tickets can be a money saver.

A car rental is probably not the best idea. Eight people and luggage would need an expansive, large people mover (van). Or two mid-size cars. Then renting in one country and dropping in another country will add considerable expense via the drop fee.

... I have heard that the train system is hard to navigate.... You will need to explain what you have heard about train travel. Personally think it is much easier than renting a car. Cars are useful for areas not served well by trains or buses but for most of the areas you want, a car would be greater problem.

You need to reduce the scope of your travel substantially and then we can give more direct advice.

All of the areas you are looking at are heavy tourist areas where English is fairly common. A lot of people in Europe speak English as the second language.

Whether your do the Hague first or Normandy would depend on where you landed. In Amsterdam, then the Hague. If Paris, maybe Normandy. How important is the Hague? It is kind of off by itself. This is why you need reduce the scope of your travels.

But it is a start so keep planning.

Once you figure out which city you want to fly into and which you want to fly out of (this is called "multi-city" when booking), try to find the time to check the fare(s) for your desired date(s) every day. Make a little chart. After a while you'll get a feel for what is the current "normal" range. If, by chance, there's a sudden drop in the price, you'll know it's a big reduction and can seriously consider buying. Fares have been moving up and down a lot since Labor Day, at least.

What is your home airport?

Each of the desired 'components' you mention above is about 4 nights worth, so realistically, with only 16 nights, you have to drop 3 destinations ...
London
Paris
Normandy and Mont St Michel
Belgium and The Ardennes
Amsterdam and The Hague
Munich and Salzburg
Rome and Pompeii

I don't have children, but I believe you want to inspire them towards a lifetime of travel, not show them all of Europe in two weeks. I also think you should pick fewer stops.

Can you afford Overlord for 8? Is there more than one person on the trip who thinks that the Normandy beaches are the most important place in France? Do you remember how crowded these places are in August? How hot are budget accomodations? No screens?

I Think you can save a lot of reasearch time if you library or buy Rick's Europe book. Remember that, for example, sleeping in Paris can include Versailles, Giverney, Chantilly, and even Chartres. Get a grip on realistic ambitions.

Some specific ideas (sleeping cities named):
Amsterdam
Cologne
Antwerp
Paris

Paris
Strasbourg
Salzburg
Munich

Berlin
Dresden
Prague
Vienna

Munich
Zurich
Freiburg
Strasbourg
Paris

Edit: It's interesting that you left out Italy. Is there little interest in art in the group?

Yes waaaaaaay too many destinations, that's a recipe for disaster. Seriously, way too many. Try for MINIMUM 3 nights in one place. We have traveled quite a bit in recent years - our boys are just now turning 12 and 14...

There are WWII sites everywhere - holocaust exhibit in London at War Museum (not sure if it was temporary) & churchhill war rooms Amsterdam (anne frank, dutch resistance), Munich (dachau).... everywhere has something... you don't have to specifically make a big trip, especially for just one person.

We have been to quite a few of the places you mention and I would stick with London, Paris, Amsterdam and maybe some side trips... 16 days is not a lot (does that include arrival and departure, or 16 full days)? Maybe can add in one more place, so that would be 4 days in each...

Or we spent 5 easily in London, could have used longer. Paris, plus side trips can take easily 5-7, Amsterdam you can day trip to the Hague, take a bike trip in the Waterland...

Munich is sort of out of the way, maybe you can do a Germany stop in northern germany. And definitely not Italy. Waaaay too far out of the way and waaay too hot in August. Stay north so you have a better chance of cool weather (though we were in Paris in August and it was super hot, but we did like Paris Plages! We got a chain hotel here to have AC).

With 8 people I would cut the logistics waaaaaaay down, and that means fewer stops. Also if you base in the 3 big cities, you can day trip out, and families can choose different day trips, because you may need some time apart.

Who told you train travel was hard? Renting a car is so hard if you don't know the language? You have to read directions and signs and parking and.... oh jeez that sounds horrible. Plus you need 2 cars.... ugh. Train travel is the EASIEST thing about traveling Europe! I LOVE traveling by train and we have gone to 7 countries where I know only 4 basic words/phrases of the language. And train travel is relaxing, we have taken DOZENS of train trips and I don't think even one has not been exactly on schedule, no joke. PLEASE use the train! You can take the Eurostar from London to Paris, and then Thalys to Amsterdam. Super cheap if you book 90 days out or whenever they open. And use the trains for side trips too, pick ones that can be done by train. You do not want to deal with a car.

Here is my travel blog if you want to look... we have london, short paris, some munich, amsterdam, rome, pompeii (and some other places you didn't mention...). There are 4 different ones (my husband ended up putting the 5th on his own site!)

http://www.travelpod.com/members/gatorfreud

Cut the destinations and logistics waaaaay down, spend more time in each place, travel by train, and PACK LIGHT. A small carry on only, NO JOKE, If you start dragging huge luggage on the train, you will be very sad. I see it every time....

Good luck and have a great trip!

On the hearing the train system is hard to navigate: Where in Germany? 1. Do you believe this? ( I don't believe it). 2. If that comment refers to the train system in Germany, you were misinformed and the person asserting that is ill-informed.

What has changed from 20 years ago is that traveling by train has become super easy, everything is in English if you look for it in contrast to the 1980s or '70s. Still, even though it's easy to get around and communicate by just knowing English, you'll find if you want to get more out of the trip, want to be able read the announcements, advertisements, newspaper headlines, the news presented on electronic boards, etc, then you need to have a good reading knowledge of the local language.

Traveling with 8 people , does that mean everyone is going to stick together all the time everyday or will they split up and rendezvous later at a specific time and place?

Avoid airports and stick to the trains once in Europe. Something like this would work ...
London (4N) > Paris (4N) > Normandy (2N) > Mont St Michel (1N) > Belgium (2N) > Amsterdam (3N)

chef,

I agree with the others in that the Itinerary you've proposed is far too busy, especially for 16 days. I counted about 12 different places you want to see, which is an average of about 1.3 days per destination, with no allowances for travel times between them. IMHO, you'll either need to pare down the stops or add time to the holiday. A few questions - does that time frame include your two flight days, and where are you flying from?

You might find it helpful to make a list of all the places you want to see, ranked in order from most important to least important. That should provide a few places on the bottom of the list that can be deleted. I'd suggest scratching the Ardennes off the list as transportation there will be more challenging. Visiting the Normandy beaches is easy via public transport and using Bayeux for a home base is the best idea, as that's where many of the tours depart from. With a group of eight, you could also look at some of the other tours as they may be able to put together more of a "custom" itinerary. If you want suggestions, post another note here.

" I have heard that the train system is hard to navigate. "

Where did you get that impression? The train system is remarkable easy to use once you learn the rules, and in many cases is the fastest way to get around (especially if using the high speed trains at 300 km/h). That will be the most efficient use of time for such a very short time frame. You may find these videos helpful.....

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz0UCZkPqbA
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZPjdzZ_9bQ
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd6tgY681e4

Renting a car is not a good idea as there are some potentially expensive "caveats" to be aware of, including a huge drop off fee if you rent in one country and drop in another. There are other issues to consider with car rentals as well. There are also some potentially expensive "caveats" to be aware of when using public transit, especially in Italy.

The language won't be an issue for the most part. I'd suggest learning a few of the "polite" words in the language of the countries you'll be visiting. Most of the people you'll be dealing with in the tourist industry will be able to function in English to some extent.

As you're probably aware, it will probably be hot and crowded in August, so pre-booking accommodations with air conditioning would be a good idea.

Good luck with your planning!

Air prices jump around. You can log onto sites like Kayak and Cheap o Air and register for a fare tracker. They will send you daily emails with price changes. As has been mentioned above, set a price and if the airfare drops below it go ahead and purchase. Dont wait for the super super low fare, it will never reappear.

I think you need to cut your list in half. I agree with djp_syd and would visit
London
Paris
Normandy and Mont St Michel
Belgium and The Ardennes
Amsterdam and The Hague

London and Amsterdam are normally cheaper to fly into and out of.

The train system is not difficult. Especially if you plan ahead. Not much has changed in 20 years except that you can print your tickets at home which saves time. To me it is easier to travel now. Look at the departure board for the correct train track and time, walk to it and then board the compartment your ticket says and find your seats. Most tickets are for specific seats now except for some regional and local trains. I have traveled with a baby and extra luggage without a problem. Make sure everyone packs a carry on that they can handle.

With 8 people of which are 4 kids, one of you could take the kids off while the others see other activities. OR the WW2 buff could venture off with a tour and the others see something else.

Thanks everyone for the great advice. We took off the romantic road and ardennes (unless 2 in our group rent a car from amsterdam and drive there and back in a day) I think we will add a few days for part of our group to visit London and the other part of our group will meet us in Amsterdam. We have arranged everything to be at least three nights at each location. Thanks for the encouraging advice on the trains. AAA was the one saying it was hard booking the reservations and if not done right could cost lots of money (although I think they have alternative motives to try and get you to book with their charter tours) I haven't read any of the train advice on this website yet but it seems they don't book until three months - is that true? Figure I'll concentrate first on airline tickets which really do fluctuate tons like you guys said. I've also convinced everyone the need to travel light - not sure how but we'll figure that out soon enough. Someone mentioned an "open jaw" ticket for saving lots of money- what is that? I am nervous about the crowds and heat (actually we're from Florida so can handle heat just not the lack of AC)....

Open Jaw is a graphic image of your route - it refers to flying into Amsterdam and home from Paris, for example. Except for different cities having different prices, it rarely costs "extra."

When booking, choose "multi-city" option and then put it, for example:
MCO-London
and then home
Paris-MCO

or whatever your cities are. One-ways are super expensive but multi-city (open-jaw) kind of allows 2 one-ways booked together and is affordable so you don't waste time and money returning to your original destination.

Did someone say seat61.com? That is the site where I learned about how to book the trains. As mentioned, it's super easy... I usually look at the route by checking whatever similar day is 60-90 days from now (so I can see the prices and times, they rarely change) - research ahead when exactly you can buy the tickets, some trains are different. Then I put an alert in my phone of when to start checking and I try to book them as soon as they open so I get my preferred times at the cheapest rate. Use whatever direct site that seat 61 says... not a retailer.

There is sometimes a schedule switchover.... but usually it happens in June I think which makes the purchase dates abnormal, but August you should be fine.

We often stay in vrbo's when 3 nights or more, cheaper and then you have a kitchen (we don't make meals, but good for snacks and breakfasts). You might want to look though finding ones for 8 might be hard. Some have air conditioning, but I would check.

Kim

"We took off the romantic road and ardennes..."

So now it's A'dam-Paris-Munich-Salzburg-Rome-Pompeii, in 16 days, right? That's less than 3 nights in each location, and of course even 3 nights = less than 3 days for doing things.

Paris - Munich by train is around 6 hours or so + time getting settled in, so you lose most of a day in terms of sightseeing. On Day 2 in Munich, Dachau involves transport time - and then after a couple of hours there it really takes the breath out of the rest of your day... you may find it challenging and weird to attempt your "general Munich beer garden stuff" after that gruesomeness.

It's still too much of a stretch. (But I have an idea...)

A couple of others have already indicated that Munich/Salzburg is a major detour and that you might stay elsewhere... So for Germany... When you leave Paris, head straight to the Mosel River Valley for 3-4 nights. It's a short trip. The 9:06 train out of Paris gets you to Trier by 12:30. Trier is Germany's oldest city, a compact place with some great sights - including some with UNESCO World Heritage recognition. You can day trip by train from there to the wine town of Cochem or to Burg Eltz Castle, Rick Steves' favorite castle in all of Europe. If you visit on a Sunday you can tour a former German bunker, now the "Panzerwerk Katzenkopf" Westwallmuseum in Irrel (bus trip from Trier.) Besseringen can be reached by train and also has a bunker. Biergartens in Trier? It's a wine town but yes, like most of Germany, Trier has Biergartens and brew pubs:

http://www.blesius-garten.de/restaurants-biergarten.php (Blesius Biergarten)
http://www.trier-info.de/tl_files/images/sehenswert/moselufer/moselufer_02.jpg (Paulaner, on the river's edge)
http://www.volksfreund.de/storage/pic/ftpxmlios/cciios/nachrichten/region/trier/aktuell/3368058_1_Biergarten_petrusbrau_fritzen.jp-G715JQ6PD.1-ORG.jpg?version=1436297444 (Petrusbräu)

If you substitute Trier/Cochem for Munich and Salzburg, it's apples and oranges to some extent, but Trier/Cochem are compact towns that you can actually do Trierin 3-4 nights; you can see a wonderful part of Germany, and save some time for your other places.

You can FLY from nearby LUX (luxembourg) or Frankfurt Hahn airport (direct bus ride from Trier) to Italy.

We have arranged everything to be at least three nights at each location.

So then what are your 5 (??) locations ?