Living In Europe

Not exactly what you are talking about but similar. First find a way to live part time to see if you really want to change your life style. What may be appealing as a tourist may not be so appealing in the long haul. Then get a decent local attorney. When you travel rent an apartment in the heart of the city you are interested in. Stay a couple of weeks at least, go grocery shopping and commute to the extremes of the city. Look at what people have and don’t have and ask yourself if you could possibly be happy without a car.

We found ourselves making many repeat trips to one country in particular so on one trip about a half dozen years ago I got curious and wanted to learn more about how people in that country lived. So we got a real estate agent to show us apartments that were for sale. My intent was just to see inside and try and get an idea of what life might be like for someone with my income or someone with my pension in a few years.

What I discovered was that in that city center the life style was very different from what I am composted to in Texas. Middle class families of 4 living in less than 1,000 square feet was pretty common. Now I have come to realize that it’s not uncommon across all of Europe. There are however some pretty nice tradeoffs in return so this isn’t meant to be at all critical. We ended up purchasing an apartment; even though that was not our intent. After the renovation we had about 600 sf of living space. Think of something larger than a 3 car garage but smaller than a four car garage in the U.S. We loved it and used it often as a test of the life style over a number of years. While the life style did work for us we still decided we needed more space so we purchase the apartment adjacent to the first. The two combined now are the equivalent to a small American home and the investment is about the same as a nice home in the Texas market.

When I get ready to retire we join the two apartments and settle in. Do your homework because immigration varies a little from country to country even in the E.U. Outside the E.U. you might have an easier try at it. Then you have to research the country’s healthcare plan. It’s all socialized and depending on your status you may or may not qualify or may have to pay some sort of tax to qualify. I will say that in the few times I have come in contact with the healthcare in the country I will be settling down in the healthcare system has proven to be adequate. I will never give up my Texas Citizenship and we will keep a small home in Texas for use half the year.

Without going into too many details... prior language skills, being in a career field that isn't subject to Schengen labor restrictions, having a spouse with EU citizenship, and not having any solid commitments in the US. That's how I did it.

Most of the US expats I've met over here are ex-military who stayed around after they left the service. Some of them have local national spouses, some managed to secure long-term civilian employment with the US military. In the past, the second option was probably the easiest manner for a non-military US citizen to live over here, but now that the troop numbers in Europe are a tiny fraction of where they were before, those jobs are much harder to come by.

"What may be appealing as a tourist may not be so appealing in the long haul." Words of wisdom from the above poster. I've never regretted my decision to move over here, but the experience of living in Europe is completely different from traveling in Europe. But the former makes the latter much more accessible.

I'm currently visiting my brother, who moved to France this year. He is married to a French national.

His search for employment is discouraging and they don't have enough money or energy, having young kids, to start their own business.

Renting a house is inexpensive in the rural areas here, but very high for the cities, in relation to wages.

The only reason that they are making a go of it is the fact that they are surrounded by a large extended family that is pitching in to help.

Either secure a job contract before leaving (i.e. military, ESL, trans-national corp) or be prepared to invest into creating your own job. Otherwise, accept that your creditials will be difficult to transfer and/or minumum wages will be the norm. Nepotism is still very, very strong in many places in Europe - so having good, solid contacts are crucial in the hiring process.

Watch as many episodes of House Hunters International on HGTV as you can. The people who are featured come from all over, mostly with one spouse or partner having a new job assignment, but not always. The episodes illustrate a lot of what's being said here. Sometimes we find them funny when the renters are so picky about little details or the common ways of doing things that are very different from North American ways. Housing costs and what you get for the money seem to be some of the biggest shocks for many people who decide to move to Europe.

Well I'm Irish and moved to Switzerland over 25 years ago, will that do???

From the point of view of how to get here, it is difficult if you do not hold an EU or EEA passport:

• Have some skills that are in short supply in the EU/EEA
• An international job transfer for a fixed period
• Be in a long term relationship or married to an EU/EEA citizen

Or the ultimate dream of us all: have sufficient funds to not need to work :-)

If you do get here the main things you will notice:

• What is best for the community, trumps individuals rights and freedoms and that comes across in many many ways

• We work to live and not the other way around, there is very little socialising at work and once the day is done it is done - we don't do OT etc… as a rule

• Holidays, lots of them and sick days do not reduce your holidays in any way

• Healthcare is not associated with your work and participation in the system is usually mandatory

• Pensions are usually mandatory as well

• Language is of course an issue, you can manage with English in may cases but to really settle in you need to make an effort to learn the local language

• It can be difficult to make friends, especially if you stay within the expat community as the turn over is very high

Who makes it:
I think people with an open mind and a willingness to adapt new ways and see thing in a different light.

For me the big issue is to master the local language, it really is a game change as to how well you are going to settle down and be happy in your new environment. It is very difficult to feel comfortable if something as simple as calling the plumber is a challenge because he does not speak English or joining your work colleagues for coffee on the terrace and understanding the banter that is going on.

I think a good place to start understanding the cultural differences you are likely to encounter is the European Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU, because 27 country have signed up to that and it really does represent the general out look which you might not readily encounter as a tourist. For instance article 2 clearly states: "Everyone has the right to life", the death penalty is prohibited and that is a very different way of thinking to the US, Article 14 states that "Everyone has the right to education and to have access to vocational and continuing training", which is reflected in the fact that third level education is generally not expensive over here.

A specific occupation that would enable one to live in Europe is teaching. There are many American/International K-12 schools as well as DoD schools that hire teachers from the US. Though our own living abroad experience was in South America, I would say that the issues delineated here are much the same. For educators who have a built in ex-pat community, it seems learning the local language is the biggest issue folks deal with. So Steve, if you are, or can become, a licensed teacher this is one way to get there. Good luck.

Where in Europe? It is a pretty big continent with a wide variety of countries and lifestyles. Living in Spain is nothing like living in Denmark or Iceland, or even in Germany.

Teaching in international schools is the easiest way to make your way overseas. Other than that, international companies, like banks, airlines, finance, restaurant or hotel chains, but you will need to be fluent in something more than English.

To get a good idea of what is involved in moving to a country that has lots of expats, take a look at Toytown which deals with Germany. Many of your questions if not all of them will be answered there. The Local (online English news source linked with Toytown) also has versions in other countries with corresponding forums, where you can again research requirements: Germany, France, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Italy, & Spain

http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showforum=180

http://www.thelocal.de/

I have lived in Frankfurt for 27 years now. Most of the time I like it, but sometimes, even after all these years I feel like throwing in the towel when I get frustrated with some bizzare contract for my handy, etc.

Pluses: the outstanding health care system, where employees and employers share the premium 50/50, wide choice of Drs., almost free university for my kids, great public transportation, ease of travel all over the continent including being budget friendly, good care of the environment and the food that is raised here, lots of museums and sense of history.
Cons - small apts. and huge lack of availability, blue laws, my expat friends keep moving away! Lack of certain foods like ice tea, sweet corn, good ribs, Mexican restaurants, etc. Read this to see more:
http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=310075&st=0&p=3132708&#entry3132708

Dual citizenship with the Republic of Ireland may be possible (parent or grandparent Irish).

So Steve, if you are, or can become, a licensed teacher this is one way to get there. Good luck.

It really depends on the country - in most countries even international schools are required to comply with the local law on qualifications and the number of hours of education that must be presented in the local language and so on. So you may find that your qualifications are not acceptable in some cases. Also the competition is very high and first dibs will go to people who are already resident.

Dual citizenship with the Republic of Ireland may be possible (parent or grandparent Irish).

It has been made a lot more difficult in recent years:

"In practice, anyone with an Irish citizen grandparent born in the island of Ireland, can easily claim Irish citizenship. His or her parent would have automatically been an Irish citizen and their own citizenship can be secured by registering themselves as in the Foreign Births Register. In contrast, those wishing to claim citizenship through an Irish citizen great-grandparent may be easily frustrated if their parents were not registered in the Foreign Births Register. Their parents can transmit Irish citizenship to only those children born after they themselves were registered and not to any children born before registration."

One thing I forgot to mention is the fact that apart from the UK and Ireland, we have civil law over here as opposed to common law in the USA. The main difference is that civil law is a code of obligations and the judges role is to confirm your compliance with the code as opposed to interpreting the law. This means that there is far less need to consult a lawyer or got court. And the main role of the lawyer is mediation and negotiation rather than advocacy.

In addition, there are golf tests in some European countries. Might there be other laws which seem absurd to those of us in North America?

Hi,

Some very good and salient points brought up here for you to consider if you're seriously entertaining the thought of being an expat. Aside from the legal and job aspects, Schengen, and all that, what type of expat do you want to be? That may depend on what type of person you are, ie., one who needs a support group, meaning over there an American one, due to culture, cultural cues, language, etc. or, on the other hand, are you more of a loner, can function pyschologically effectively without back up from a support group consisting of other American expats. Then there is the question of what type of expat you have in mind for yourself, one being part of the American/other expat, presumably anglophone, community or being part of the society where you are aiming to be totally immersed a la francais or Germanised, etc. dealing/associating with only locals in the foreign language, excluding other US expats. Do you think that in the conduct of daily life over there that you'll miss speaking English?

If you want to increase the chances/possibilities of striking out on your own over there, then I would suggest you put out the effort and focus on learning that foreign language, French, Italian, German, etc. beyond the basic level where your interlocutor can understand what you are saying. That's not good enough. Learning that foreign language so that you're able to read, write and speak almost as effectively as in English, where you can do without the English translation...to the point where you start dreaming in it. Getting to that level of becoming bilingual and bicultural will certainly make it a lot easier for you assimilate.

Steve, are you still there? Or are we talking amongst ourselves?

Sorry all. I am here. Internet issues on and off. I appreciate everyone's comments and advice. Apparently this is not as simple as I first thought. My relatives who immigrated (Poland, Germany, France and Ireland) are very distant: great hrandparents. I was thinking of taking the TESL course and being certified but research tells me that is not a guarantee of employment. Many of the jobs seem to go first to EU citizens.
If I were to somehow find a way to move there I expect I would want to be part of the expat community. As was said, maybe I wohld be better visiting and meeting people and go from there. Thanks ladies and gents for all the info, advice and input!

Meet a European girl, marry her and then things will be easier. I am from the US living as an expat for the last 13 years. While I did come to Austria for my job which arranged for my work and residency permits, most of my expat friends are Americans who have married Austrians.

I was thinking of taking the TESL course and being certified but research tells me that is not a guarantee of employment.

Well I can't speak for other countries, but in Switzerland the preference is for UK/Irish English and the CELTA qualification.

Many of the jobs seem to go first to EU citizens.

Yes it is particularly hard at the moment to show that there is no EU/EEA citizen available to take up the positions that are offered.

"Many of the jobs seem to go first to EU citizens." By law according to the Schengen treaty, they must. Certain hard-to-fill career fields like medicine and some kinds of engineering are exempt, but for the most part, employers must file for approval to hire candidates from outside of the EU, Switzerland or Norway. Probably not realistic that an employer would bother in this job market, unless the applicant could offer some particularly unique skill.

Good points.

Believe it or not, I first saw my current job in this publication. I subscribed to it for 2 or 3 years, as I recall.

http://www.internationaljobs.org/contents.html

I applied for dozens of jobs in my field before one finally came through. Good luck.

I've done the reverse. Came from the EU to the US.

There are 3 easy ways to emigrate (in either direction):
1. Marriage
2. Marriage
3. Marriage

I used all three.

Once you have the papers, and you master the local language, finding work will be the lesser problem. Do not underestimate the value of your English language skills.

Of course just speaking English won't help you much in the UK, but in those countries where English is not the official language (or widely spoken, such as in Holland), knowing both the local language and English (and possibly even more languages) will be an invaluable asset to most employers, since many now do business across borders.

One more thing. Most Americans refer to me as an Italian immigrant in the US.

Someone must explain to me why Americans who live in Europe refer to themselves as "Expatriates" rather than immigrants.

I was thinking about that yesterday when I saw several Mexican "Expatriates" loitering in front of Home Depot waiting to be hired for the day by some contractor.

"Someone must explain to me why Americans who live in Europe refer to themselves as "Expatriates" rather than immigrants." Because traditionally, it was relatively rare for a US citizen to surrender their passport and take on a new nationality. But, the way the tax laws have recently changed, an increasing number are choosing to drop their US citizenship. I won't start a politcal rant about this, but in a nutshell, the recent changes put a HUGE onus on the ex-pat community to prove that they haven't moved abroad just to cheat the US government out of a few cents of taxable income...

If the Netherlands is suitable you can look into this treaty.

http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_american_friendship_treaty.htm

http://daftacitizensguide.weebly.com

Good luck.

Roberto and Tom make good points. I know 2 couples personally who are or will be ex-pats. Escaping taxes has never been mentioned as a reason for moving, but I suppose it could be a contributing factor.

The first one is Canadian and moved to Mexico over 5 years ago. They had a house built and enjoy the lifestyle in a Mexican town with lots of US and Canadian ex-pats. They have no intention of becoming Mexican citizens or of giving up their Canadian citizenship. It was difficult at first for them to realize that they had to play by Mexico's rules, ie. get a Mexican driver license, car license, etc. Now they are well settled in and rarely go to Canada at all. They are not snow-birds. They are permanent residents. Why? Because they can stretch their retirement money farther in Mexico than they could in Canada. Mexico may consider them to be immigrants, but they consider themselves to be ex-pats.

The second couple live across the street from me and are moving to Costa Rica in January. They have their house up for sale here, have gotten rid of most of their furniture and have rented a completely furnished place there for six months to see how they like it. They have made all the arrangements to take their two large dogs with them. They also have no intention of giving up their US citizenship or of being snow-birds. If all goes well, they plan to buy a place there and live permanently. It's also all about stretching their retirement dollars farther and living a more desirable lifestyle than they can here. They consider themselves ex-pats, too. With Costa Rica's marketing of exactly that better lifestyle on less money, I don't know what the country will consider my neighbors to be.

Perhaps whether you are an immigrant or an ex-pat depends on the country you move to and/or what you consider yourself to be. Whether or not you can have dual citizenship, I guess is up to both countries.

There are 3 easy ways to emigrate (in either direction):
1. Marriage
2. Marriage
3. Marriage

I used all three.

LOL - Does that mean you're on your third marriage?

As to the expat vs immigrant question - the easy answer is that most Americans living elsewhere are not permanent immigrants there; they are just living elsewhere temporarily. Whereas it is commonly believed (not necessarily accurately) that most immigrants to the US are permanent. These are common beliefs that get applied universally - so every foreigner in the US is an immigrant and visa-versa.

expat vs immigrant

Tom, Lo and Douglas. I don't agree with you.

Being an immigrant does not imply giving up one's nationality. In fact most 'immigrants' I know, have not given up their passport and have never had the intention to do so. That includes myself, in fact I still have my Italian citizenship along with my American one. Some have no intention of acquiring the US citizenship either.

I also know lots of American "immigrants' in Europe. Most of them hold dual citizenship.

It is also not true that this differentiation has to do with the intention to stay overseas only temporarily.

Lots of immigrants to the US return to their country of origin after a lifetime working in the US. Likewise there are also many who think they are in the US only temporarily and who think they will go back, but never do because of family ties (their children now live in the US). Most of the Mexican laborers in the US have no intention of remaining in the US their entire life. Most hope to make enough money to go back to their country, although many end up staying because they want to stay close to their children born and grown up in the US.

The same is true for Americans living overseas. Some return, some think they will return but never do because of the same family reasons.

However regardless of these circumstances Americans call Americans living overseas "expatriates", whereas those foreigners who live in America (often under the same circumstances) are referred to as "immigrants".

I think it has a lot to do with the negative connotation of the word "immigrant".

The word immigrant conjures up images of poverty, manual dirty work, discrimination, and many Americans don't like being associated with that image. Immigrants are therefore the "others", the "aliens" (from the Latin Alienus, or Foreign, which comes from 'Alius' = other), "not us".

The word "ex-patriate" (from Latin "ex patria", or outside the homeland) instead conjures up images of a rich person who 'chooses' to live in an exotic place just because he/she can afford to do so. Americans prefer it because of the more positive image associated with that.

Hence the use of the word 'expatriate' when referred to "those like us" as supposed to "those others".

So, no excuses Tom.

You are just an 'immigrant alien' in Germany, like I was an 'immigrant alien' in the US (my US green card actually said so).

My grandmother was born in Paris and lived there until she was five, when her family (Romanian parents and a French-born sister) moved to the U.S. Anyone know offhand if it's possible for me to obtain French citizenship because of my grandmother? There is a French consulate in Chicago and I plan to do more research on the citizenship topic; I was just wondering if anyone here happens to have any information.

"I think it has a lot to do with the negative connotation of the word "immigrant". "

Sorry, Roberto, but the US is one country where, for the most part, immigrants are looked upon very favorably. We bask in our Melting Pot culture. How else do you explain all the hyphenated Americans running around here?

If anything, reading what happens to a lot of immigrants in Europe, it's Europe where the word "immigrant" has a negative connotation.

Just going to quickly disagree with Roberto.

One immigrates because one wants a better life, with the hope of eventually becoming a citizen. It is seen as a permanent move.

One is an expat when one moves to another country due to work or love, but usually with the idea, that it isn't permanent, with no desire to become a citizen of that foreign country. It is seen as temporary, with the idea that whatever happens, one can always go back home. An immigrant doesn't usually think this way, as many of them escaped a horrid life in their home country and the thought of going back isn't very appealing.

I know lots of American friends who live in Florence and have lived there for decades now. They expressed no intention of coming back to the US (many are married to Italians), not even after retirement (some are already retired there). They have Italian citizenship also (along with the US citizenship).

Yet, they refer to themselves and other Americans refer to them as "Expatriates".

I actually found several discussion boards on this topic.

Yes, the general consensus is that the "immigrant' has no intention to return home, while the "expatriates" sees his/her residency as temporary.

But the best answer I found is from a guy who wrote from the US:

"Coming from a third-world country like me, the locals will consider you as an immigrant even though you’re an expat. But if you’re from western/northern countries living in the east/south, you’ll be considered an expat"

So, as another one said, "Expat" is a word used by well educated and wealthy professional westerners and other first-world foreigners to distinguish themselves from the poor, non-western or second- and third-world foreigners.

Therefore, "expats" and "immigrants" are the same thing, and the word "expat" is just a social marker, which is basically what the persons in the (very funny) blog posts below think:

http://www.rednecknparadise.com/ex-pat-vs-immigrant/

http://hispanicfanatic.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/expats-vs-immigrants/

"An immigrant doesn't usually think this way, as many of them escaped a horrid life in their home country and the thought of going back isn't very appealing."

Jo. I must assume that no recent Western European or Canadian or Japanese immigrants exist in the US. None of them escaped horrid life at home, at least not recently.

Sarah, please report back on what you find out.

I worked with someone who came to this country when he was about 10 or 12 and became an American citizen as soon as he was old enough. But he was thrilled in the 90's when the US laws changed so that he could have dual citizenship. Both his parents were Lithuanian and he was able to have a Lithuanian passport as well as his US one. It's a long refugee story involving his parents escaping Lithuania and the USSR after WWII. One of his sisters was born in Poland and he was born in Germany as they made their way as far from the USSR as they could. They wanted to immigrate to the US but were denied entry, so they ended up in Columbia when he was about 2. After living there 8-10 years, they were finally allowed to come to the US. And yes, his 1st language is Lithuanian, 2nd is Spanish and 3rd is English.

Since we are on this topic, which really is relevant to the OP's question, here's a website about all the terms that we have been using: http://www.diffen.com/difference/Emigrate_vs_Immigrate. Be sure to take a look at the "Related Comparisons" at the bottom of the article.

Sarah, yes, it's very possible. Lucky you! I've been trying to figure out a way for years... My grandmother was German but for me to be eligible she would have to have been born after a certain year (forget what year, in the 30's I think) and she was born before that. From what I've been told, if she was born after that certain year and I was therefore eligible, I'd have to live in Germany for a couple of years and be able to speak German for the interview process.

"Immigrant vs. expat". So, Roberto, why does it matter to you how someone else chooses to identify themselves? I moved here for reasons of family and work. I'll call myself what I want, you go about calling yourself what you want and I won't raise an eyebrow. And I'll continue to put meatballs ON TOP of my spaghetti, because that's the way I like it, no matter how much people from southern Italy may object.

Ok Tom, you are an expatriate.
And so are several millions Mexicans in America. Many dream to return to Mexico one day.

But don't ask me to eat meat balls on spaghetti. That's too much to bear for an Italian expatriate.

@ Sarah...Your grandmother having been in born in France, was she also a French citizen? That's the crucial part. If you can establish that she is/was indeed a French citizen and that your mom was also a French citizen, then you just might have a crack at French citizenship. French citizenship is passed on by the mother.

If your mom never was a French citizen because your grandmother did not register her birth at a French consulate within the alloted time, then I would suspect you won't be able to obtain French citizenship unless you marry a French national. Then you can obtain French citizenship since your husband has it. And, should this hypothetical situation arise, your marriage to this French "national" has to be registered at the French Consulate, otherwise they don't you two newly weds exist...legally. I think I am pretty much accurate on this as it pertains to France, but most defintely inquire at the Consulate in Chicago.

How long does one have to be overseas to qualify as an expat? True, some move to Western Europe, Japan or Australia for both job and romance reasons. Some move to get out of the USA because they prefer raising the family overseas. If the implication between an immigrant and an expat is that of intention, what one intends now may not apply ten or twenty years later.

I know expats in Germany and Austria, mature adults to know what they were doing, American citizens married to foreign nationals (these EU citizens), deferred to their spouses' wishes that they not live in the US but rather in the native country of the wife/husband. Their kids are growing up German or Austrian, see themselves as such, in bilingual households. What was behind their intention? Their decision to leave the US is permanent. They don't see themselves returning. I see them as US expats who took the decisive step to emigrate to those countries over ten or so years ago.

Born in Britain, I lived and worked in Libya for four years as an Expatriate. After which I choose to emigrate to Canada thus becoming an Landed Immigrant (a Canadian term no longer used - now Permanent Resident). I became a Canadian citizen after completing the basic residence requirement for doing so and have been a Canadian for the past forty years. I am no longer an Immigrant, nor am I an English-Canadian; I am a Canadian.

expat vs immigrant

Tom, Lo and Douglas. I don't agree with you.

Roberto - please re-read my post and explain where we disagree. Your post simply expands on my brief explanation.

There are people who are obviously immigrants, and there are people that are obviously expatriates, and between them is a huge grey area. You can identify as both an immigrant and an expatriate at the same time. Or maybe you do not identify with either term.

Thread Gone Wild. I guess my use of the term "expats" stirred up a hornet's nest. Discuss amongst yourselves.

^^^ Sorry Steve, this happens a lot here. After the OP's question is fully answered in the first two posts, the following posts either just repeat the same answer or veer off in only somewhat related topics. You can turn off email notifications that happen each time your thread gets a response.

Actually, there were at least 11 posts that answered the question from OP.

I see at least 18. But I still don't get the golf tests bit. Where and for what?

Kidding....I love when one topic leads to another and another and another!