Liquor Laws??

Kent, from my experience you can buy it 'takeaway' just about anywhere (from a Mac's Milk/7-11/Loblaws type outlet to an only 'booze' store); you can be served a 'glass' from early AM to whenever; but you'd better not be behind the wheel with a few under your belt 'cause they'll throw away the key. Always remember waiting to catch a very early flight out of Schiphol, having a coffee, and watching a group (obviously heading to somewhere warm/sunny/sandy) having supersized cans of Grolsch at about 0730hrs to celebrate their departure.

"What are the basic laws throughout Western Europe when it come to alcohol and drinking?" The basic law seems to be, "Have a drink!" I've noticed that when the take-away stands open in the train stations, booze goes on sale just as early as everything else.

The flip side of what may seem like an excessively tipsy culture: I remember vividly sitting at an outdoor cafe at the Oude Markt in the university town of Leuven. In marked contrast to a North American university scene, almost everyone, in a crowd of several hundred, was having a nice, civil conversation over a beer... and this was Belgian beer, which is much stronger than the typical North American lager.

Now that I think about this subject a little longer, I also remember my time at a student union pub at the University College of London... which was much closer to the North American experience. I guess there's just something about the English language and alcohol...

Kent: Alcohol is more available in Europe than where you live. Those travelers renting a car in Europe should be aware that EU blood alcohol limits for drivers in at least some countries can be as low as .05, significantly lower than most US states, and these laws have been known to be strictly enforced with no exceptions made for tourists. For example, Ron (who lives in Italy) reports that in Italy the DUI blood alcohol limit is .05, and some people (depending on body weight and other factors) can get to that level with a few glasses of wine. Then you're driving back to the B&B and next thing you see is the blue and white lights behind you...not a good way to experience Europe.

Each country has its own rules of course. In Germany, open cans or bottles is ok. Bars can be open 24/7 if they so desire. Liquor can be purchased from any grocery store. Lots of guys hang out at the kiosks, often known as "wasser häuschen", though some of them will have signs saying no drinking on the premises. If you go to school fests or picnics, there will always be drinking there. Every birthday is celebrated with "sekt", even at work. Parents may even serve a glass at young teens birthday parties or NYE. Legal age to drink was 16 for beer and wine, though this might have changed this year to 18. A teen has no problem buying beer though. The saving grace is that you can't get a drivers license til you are 18 and it costs a fortune - at least 1500€. You do NOT want to drink and drive over here. Taxis and public transportation are so easy, there is no excuse for driving after a "couple".

Alcoholism IS a problem though, not only in Germany, but in France, Spain, and Italy too, and I don't even want to start on the UK. The doctors over there are already worried about all the liver damage and where are they going to get liver transplants in the next 20 -30 years. "Coma drinking" or "flat-line" drinking are common. Alko-pops are a problem with the teens. Lots of cheap booze around too.

Funny story about trains and alcohol... I was on a train in Holland, a tourist from Norway was sitting next to me drinking a can of coke. When the ticket collector came by she told him the only liquids he was allowed to consume on the train had to have alcohol in it. I guess the reasoning is, that its better to have a drunk on a train than driving on the roads:) But from what I understand, most all countries in Europe have some sort of open container law, but the police have a lot of discretion on when and where they will enforce it. For example if there is major soccer match going that day, the police may hassle you for drinking in the streets; whereas on other days they wouldn't care.

Believe me, in Germany you can pretty much drink where ever you want to, UNLESS there is an event where they have decided to forbid it.(like the World Cup) Now, taking your glass of beer outside of the pub, may be frowned upon as the pub owner may be thinking about losing their glassware. Perhaps you did see the police hassling someone, but do you really know what it was for? Acting like a fool when you are drunk can get you arrested, but walking through the downtown area with a can of beer or a box of wine won't. There are also those occasions (like at the pool, or at sporting events or the movies) where you are supposed to buy your drinks and if you bring your own in, you will get hassled. I did own a bar here, so am fairly familiar with the liquor laws of Germany. Other countries, not so much.

Many decades ago,, when I turned 13 in France, at my grandmothers house we had a little party. I had 4 neighborhood girls in .. and we all were served sparkling wine,, and as the girls parents arrived, they too had a drink,, and no one batted an eye..

But, no one got(obviously) drunk, and no one drove.

My relatives have told me the drinking and driving laws are very , very tough, but it wasn't always so.

I do wish we could buy wine at the grocers here, it would be nice when getting dinner to just be able to pick up a bottle.

The police officers in question were speaking English, they very professionally explained the open container regulations, and then gave the offenders a choice of either paying a fine or emptying their beers into the street drain; they chose option two. When I was given my warning in London it had nothing to do with the pub's owner loosing his glasswear, I was told by the bobby that drinking on the street was illegal. I agree that there is a lot of public drinking going on across Europe, but just because lots of people flaunt the law or the police don't enforce in every single offense they witness, doesn't mean it's legal. Do US police officers pull over every speeder they come across--of course not. Come to think of it I've also noticed a lot of public urination in some parts of Europe, while I don't know if this is verboten under Germany law, I suspect it is -even if only one in a thousand people get caught.

In the 60's when I was in boarding school in Lausanne, on special days such as the Mother Superior's Saint Day, we were all served wine--watered down but that was probably to save money! Not one of us became even tipsy. The youngest were 7 years old!

I too find this topic interesting, and have always felt that the relaxed attitude toward alcohol has had the effect of a more responsible response to alcohol use in Europe. While alcoholism exists in every culture, I some times think that all of the laws we in the US and Canada have in place probably contribute negatively to peoples approach to Alcohol use, as if they overindulge in forbidden fruit. Interestingly, in the UK as they imposed shorter hours and other regulations for Pubs, binge drinking actually went up, people drank the same amount, just did it in many fewer hours. Sadly, in the US, if we were to open our laws (hours, availability, drinking age) the immediate effect would certainly be negative (opening the floodgates so to speak) and probably last for years until peoples attitudes changed. Still, I do think that the legal age needs to be reduced to 18 and I should be able to freely purchase wine across state lines and ship it to my home without breaking multiple laws in the applicable states.

@Michael Schneider: Germany does not have "open container laws", and frankly I would be surprised if any continental european country (with the possible exception of the nordic countries) had such laws.

Continental Europe simply lacks the puritanian "ideology" of "alcohol reduction by penal law" to justify such far reaching measures.
Excessive alcohol consumption is seen (outside of the well defined areas of DUI and drinking minors) as a social problem, not a criminal problem.

Germany has certain defined outdoor areas where drinking is allowed, but that's not the same as an open container law.

Mark, I have seen the police in Berlin and Munich hassle people for open containers during the World Cup. I've also observed the Dutch police ticketing folks for open containers. I myself was given a warning by the London Metropolitan Police for taking my pint just out side a pub near Leicester Square.

Where was that? The "fan-miles" were not public places, they were events by sponsors who wanted to sell beer. But that were house rules, not "laws".

Here in Berlin there are no laws against "open containers in public places", with the exeption of public playing grounds for childeren in some (not all) quarters (and even these ban "consumption" not "open containers" per se).

I'm a bit surprised by Michael's experience in Germany (can't say much about these laws in England) as well. The only way I could explain it was if the container was made of glass. Than it's not a question of the alcoholic content but the danger inherent in the container. For that reason no glass bottles are allowed in any soccer stadium - doesn't matter if they are filled with beer or water.

During the World Cup the security measures were even stricter. Again not because of concerns around alcohol but because of the danger presented by the container. In addition to the prohibition on glass containers any cans or plastic bottles were confiscated at the entrance of public events and stadiums. The explanation is that even a half liter plastic bottle of water presents a considerable weight that if hurled from row 68 downwards can become a dangerous weapon.

Instead, containers that were absolutely open and cannot be closed were allowed - plastic cups!! And they were filled with plenty of beer .... I was lucky enough to have tickets for a match during that time. I had to hand over my plastic bottle of water when I entered the stadium. I replaced it during half time with a plastic cup of beer :-)

As a child growing up in Germany it was very common for me to be sent out to buy beer and cigarettes for my father. Not a criminal offence for anybody involved. My very Canadian daughter was very surprised when she was part of her cousin's 16t birthday where lots of beer was handed out, often as a "Radler", i.e. mixed with pop/soda. With explicit permission by the parents. However, the older brother (in his 20s) was "policing" the guests making sure nobody smuggled in hard liquor. That would be a very typical party!

None of this police activity, occurred at either the stadiums or the fan events. It was on the "regular" streets in the city center. Even here in the US you can go the parking lots of most any major stadium see thousands of people with open containers and consuming alcohol in violation of local ordinances. And just because the police are out numbered and don't enforce the law-doesn't make it legal.

Michael, not quite sure why you are arguing about the liquor laws in Germany with two people (Mark and I) who live here, but may I suggest you look them up on line and then get back to us? Then you will know for sure. Also, each country does have its own laws and we can only speak for Germany. Perhaps Ron in Italy or Corinna in Austria can help out here.

I checked with my German friends to get some clarification on the conflicting experiences described here. It is clear that there is NO federal legislation on the consumption of liquor in public places in Germany. The base assumption is that it is allowed! And that is one the tourist can go on. However, municipalities have the right to enact local bylaws that restrict the consumption of liquor in public at certain times or in certain places. So there are some cities that have forbidden alcohol, for example, around train stations or at the central market place. And they do enforce it there with police.

The most well known touristy spot this applies to is apparently the Alexanderplatz in Berlin.

Re: alcohol ban at Alexanderplatz: I don't want to be nitpicking, but the "alcohol consumption ban" at those parts of the Alexanderplatz designated as a public park is part of the "park rules" (Grünanlagenordnung) of the Mitte quarter.

Special public areas (parks, playing grounds, cemetaries, schools, prisons, train stations, city halls, hospitals, court houses, and so on) may have house rules banning or limiting alcohol consumption, but the term "open container law" impied (at least to me) a more general public ban.

Mark,

Why nitpicking? This is exactly what I said: this "Gruenanlagenordnung" is a typical example of a local bylaw enacted by the municipality. General alcohol bans do not exist in Germany.

"Nitpicking" because alcohol consumption is only banned in the park at the Alexanderplatz, that is south-west of the train station (i.e. around the base of the tv tower and in front of the red city hall, the park with the Marx and Engels statues). That was only possible because that area is a public park and can therefore have "house rules" set by the quarter of Mitte which administers the park.

On the Alexanderplatz proper, i.e. the paved area north-east of the train station with that global clock thingie, alcohol consumption is still allowed. Because there is no legal basis that would allow the banning of alcohol consumption at a public place/street.

That would require a statute of the Berlin city parliament, and for good or worse there is no majority for such a measure.

I think I have an idea of the "openness" of Germany. What about Italy and France? Are they more open?

Well, some very specific examples for France and Italy: Again availability at any hours that stores are open, available in grocery stores, shops, convienance stores. Any place that would be appropriate to eat or have a soft drink would be OK for a beer or glass of wine. I have sat on the Champs du Mar in the evening with my picnic, including wine (among mostly Parisians) looking at the Eifel, lit at night. I have sat on the breakwater and beach in the Cinque Terra enjoying a bottle of wine. I do get the impression though that walking down the street, in either country, swilling a bottle of wine would be more bad form or manners than illegal.