Lessons from those that don't listen...

That’s exactly what some people do here. They come here and ask a question but sometimes they don’t want the real answer...they want the answer that pleases them. Drives me nuts

So my son and his girlfriend bought tickets to Portugal on Royal Air Moroc for less than $500 each. Only catch was they flew through Casablanca. Didn't seem like a great idea to me but I wasn't paying for the tickets. Three days before they are to leave they receive an email that their return from Porto with a two hour layover in Casablanca has been changed to a return from Lisbon and a three day layover in Casablanca!!! I looked on line and the flight the day they purchased for had been canceled. I was not impressed.

So I tell them they ought to do carry on only--that the probabilities of something going wrong seemed higher than average. My son had brought two suitcases full of clothes home and intended to sort through them but decided at the last minute to just take both suitcases. He had just gone to the dr. for an ear infection and wasn't at his best but basically decided going to Chipotle before going to the airport was more important. His girl friend dumped some of her stuff in his larger bag. I decided my husband could take them to the airport.

At the airport, their flight to Porto was rerouted to Lisbon, if you can imagine. They called me from Casablanca and told me that there was a later flight that day to Porto which I suggested they take. But the luggage was already going to Lisbon. They arrive in Lisbon and the airline lost the checked luggage, in which his girl friend had put all her toilitries including her disposable contacts. I learned this when my son texted me from the train to Porto after the two of them were no longer sitting together as they had been kicked out of the first class train they had mistakenly sat in.

Fortunately, the luggage was delivered to Porto two days later. And much to their credit, they even had a marvelous time during their unexpected stay in Morocco.

Sarah, my eyes are rolling! Hard lessons.

A dear friend had his 22 year-old son call us for advice before a trip to Italy. The itinerary was Rome, Florence, Venice, all by car. Three young men traveling together. We told him no car, just take trains. Usual advice regarding parking, tolls, ZTLs, etc., and that it is not like driving in North America.

Of course they rented a car. After the trip, I asked his dad how it went. “They shouldn’t have rented a car!” was all he would say. I can only imagine the expenses they racked up!

But did they enjoy their trip?

Laurel,

"Three young men"..... of course they wouldn't take advice from us "old people" as after all, we don't know anything. Depending on how long ago their trip was, they may still be getting a few more ZTL tickets. Hopefully they will follow good advice next time it's offered.

I was able to provide real-time travel advice via text messages to one of my sons and D-I-L on their trip to Italy this spring. They probably didn't use all of my suggestions, but between my tips and their own resources they had a great trip. I wasn't able to provide much information for their trip to Malta in June, as I haven't been there yet.

Sounds very familiar..95 F and 90% humidity...how many times have I experienced just that traveling in the US (Texas, Alabama,

Memphis ) and, of course, in Germany and France. Never had AC in France and Germany either in any of the small hotels and Pensionen.

Part of the problem maybe knowing who do you trust? Ask a question about Paris and you may get an answer from somebody whose experience comes from splitting a week between Paris and London. Or you may get me-- 21 days in Paris, or somebody who lives in Paris. These are not equally worthwhile advisors. RS should require all posters to put an explanation of their qualifications in their profile so those asking questions have some idea of the level of travel expertise behind answers.

Then there is the problem of celebrity sights, "celebrity" being defined as being well known for being well known. How do you persuade a first time visitor to EU, don't go to Paris, go to Prague (or Vienna, Rome, London, or Barcelona)? And if you go to London, don't waste your time going to the Changing of the Guard, possibly the biggest waste of time in Christendom.

And if you are wondering, I've got more than 600 days as a tourist in Europe; 30,000+ miles driven in France and proportionately more in Germany and Austria..

This is why I've practically given up commenting on proposed itineraries. Some people don't want to hear the truth, they want affirmation of their proposals. I''ve had enough messages from the webmaster informing me that xxx is upset by forum members replies and that their time is done on this board etc that I've decided it's not worth my time and effort.

Oh Sarah and Beth, those are two truly classic tales!!! Each one with more and more elements piling on. And Laurel with the three guys who insisted on driving!!

Oh my goodness these are funny to read, but not fun to experience — as the friend or family member advising/feeling their own stress build up while they watch all these bad decisions build on each other!!

Ultimately, people will learn more from experience than advice.

I don't think the advice and suggestions you offered (or anyone here offers) is worthless, though, even when disregarded.

I'd imagine, at some point when sweating and suffering sans AC, the thought might have crossed their minds that they should have listened to ya. When realizing that train trip was canceled and having to book themselves a flight, they very well could have thought to themselves "I should have done what Sarah suggested all along". So the experience helped put your advice in to context, and helped it ring all the more true in hindsight. If and when they go back, your voice will be in their head :)

This makes me think of growing up, and all the countless times I disregarded my fathers advice. In hindsight, he was right about a great many things - but I had to learn that he was right, rather than just take his word for it. Actually living through the experience of learning I should have listened to him about certain things was key to those lessons ultimately sticking, as opposed to the mistakes just being repeated.

Human nature is human nature, but if we look at the advice and suggestions we offer as being part of a process instead of a binary option to either accept or refuse, I think many of the words of wisdom veteran travelers and posters here have given eventually stuck, with even greater value and meaning.

I do find it strange that people who will take the time to come and ask (because "you've travelled a lot and know the tricks") will then completely ignore advice. It's a difficult one, because sometimes people just have to learn from their own errors (which is why I now obsessively set 3 alarms and book a wake up call if we have a hotel room before an early flight).

I think the important thing is that people enjoy travel in their own way - just because a style suits me (slow traveler, at least a week in any place) doesn't mean I'm right and Mr "7 cities in 5 days" is wrong, but it does sadden me that so many people who have "done Europe" in 10 days haven't actually experienced it at all.

I stopped giving advice a long time ago. If asked, I will answer a question but I don't get upset if they don't take it.

If friends now say they are going to.........I just say, "Have a nice time. You're going to love it."

But look at a lot of the answers here. There is much confilicting advice.

Ask a question about Paris and you may get an answer from
somebody whose experience comes from splitting a week between Paris and
London. Or you may get me-- 21 days in Paris, or somebody who lives in
Paris. RS should require all posters to put an explanation of their
qualifications in their profile so those asking questions have some
idea of the level of travel expertise behind answers.

And yet, just because someone lives in ___ or been there X numbers of times doesn't necessarily make them an expert... or not beyond their own interests, anyway? There are people in my city who can tell you about shopping, casino day trips and amusement parks but have never set foot in any of the art museums, walked/biked any of the urban trails or visited any historical sites. Same with some visitors who come every year just to go to the Big Giant Mall or State Fair. While they would be able to advise people with similar interests, they would fall flat with others like myself who enjoy different things. Conversely, I would fail the shopping/casino/amusement park/beach/ nightlife lovers.

I guess that's why a lot of us put the questions we do to new posters before advising the wheres and whats?
We enjoyed Paris very much so I don't know that the traveller looking for art, architecture and history needs to be persuaded to go elsewhere if Paris is their chosen destination? Maybe one man's famine is another man's feast! :O)

Ultimately, perspective and preference are variables no amount of advice can account for, much less overrule.

We see it even among the folks here, offering up advice to newcomers - some of us swear by waiting until in the country we're visiting to hit up an ATM and pull out cash, others prefer to step off the plane with cash in-hand; some of us print out boarding passes, others see no sense in doing so; some of us have had our phone batteries die and render digital boarding passes useless, others have traveled for years without ever having once run in to that issue, and without ever having once needed to pull a paper boarding pass out of their pocket.

You can suggest to someone, until blue in the face, the train makes no sense and they're much better off flying... but what if they just like trains? Or want to experience something they're unable to at home? In my case, for instance, I'm able to feel like a train ride is itself part of the experience and actually counts as doing something, as opposed to simply a means to get from point A to point B.
A flight? Purely a chore. Cars can be a huge hassle and they'll probably get a ticket, get lost, and waste time looking for parking... but what if they just really like driving? Before my first trip to Paris years ago, I had several friends caution me about how overwhelming (to the point it becomes underwhelming) the Louvre can be, while I personally love spending countless hours aimlessly meandering through new surroundings and can enjoy nothing in particular when it's entirely unfamiliar. Things like AC and waking up in time are a bit more cut and dry (unless someone's truly a character and enjoys oppressive heat and humidity?), and ignoring advice about those things likely sets someone up for an unpleasant time. But anyone on the receiving end of advice can only ever factor it in among the countless other variables and considerations, and experiences and perspectives, that will go in to determining what they do.

Last weekend, my BFF's granddaughter telling me that she and her husband are going to Europe in February for 13 days. It is their first time in Europe. Their itinerary in Feb. mind you is London, Amsterdam, Paris-to see a foreign exchange student who lived with them, Germany-to go to a beer festival and Rome. I tried to explain that WOW that was a lot of countries, the time that will be eaten up traveling just to get to each place and how very cold for us Floridians it will be. I then shut up as it was not phasing her a bit. I told her to enjoy! We will see what they say when they get back.

As Frank II says, we often provide conflicting information/advice to posters, so how does a new traveller which is 'best' ;-) or even correct? So they roll their eyes and toss out all advice. Not surprised.
And as Kathy says, locals are not necessarily experts. I rarely advise about my home town as I live in the burbs and it has been ages since I have done anything touristy. My few visitors tend to already know what they want to do and do it independently so I am of little help.
I can't always follow it, but my mantra is 'you can only control how you react to a situation'.....let it go...ommmmmm

Life would be really boring if no one made stupid mistakes (and hopefully learned from them). "Early 30 year olds" have a long time to improve their travel skills. I would not sweat this one.

One of my sons and DIL made it clear they were planning their own Paris/Marseille/Cassis trip, all places our son had lived as a child. He was introducing her to the glories of junior high cuisine, such as merguez with fries in a baguette slathered with mustard. She, on the other hand, researched all the latests places to eat via Paris by Mouth et al; afterwards our son said the cuisine and ambiences were too similar to their Brooklyn haunts. He was sorry to miss the meat and potatoes (beef in wine with herbs & vegies) his grandmother, mom, and aunts used to feed him. Our Biche au Bois suggestion, or any other, was wasted breath. He did take her over to the Polidor, another of his childhood memories. They gotta do it themselves.

I used to give my mom a hard time about packing light. My entire bag is roughly the size of her makeup case. She never learned and had to have shoulder surgery after one trip from lugging her bags around.

To be fair, I still make stupid mistakes. One that comes to mind is going to the wrong train station in Paris. I had one station in mind, went there and, until I printed my ticket at the kiosk, didn't realize I was in the wrong place. I was early for my train but not quite enough time to make it to the other station.

It worked out. I caught the next train, lost a couple of hours. My ticket was good so no effect on my wallet.

With the right attitude some good travel memories can come from mistakes.

I can relate. Several years ago brother and sister-in-law and their two kids were going to London. When I heard, I offered to advise since I'd been several times and husband has family there. Heard nothing back so 🤷

But then 2 weeks before their trip, SIL reaches out for transit pass advise. Their travel agent has them staying in Bexley 😲. This is an hour by transit from sites in central London with no place to eat nearby.

So I put out requests for hotel advice and was able to give them some good options and luckily one was available. After returning they told me they were so glad they had switched hotels! Wish they'd asked sooner 🙂

And a non Europe example. Friend had been saving up to take her kids to Walt Disney World. I've been many times so I tried to advise. Even gifted her the best guidebook. It went in one ear and out the other and I suspect the book was never opened. She came back saying they had fun but would do sooo much differently if they went again ( I think they made every rookie mistake). I just kept my mouth shut and admired her photos 🙂

I know someone that is currently on a trip and I wish I knew before she planned it all. She's hitting 7 countries and 14 cities in 14 days and flying in/out of London. I would have at least told her to do an open jaw flight, now she has to make her way from Switzerland to London just for a flight home.

I've been following her travels on facebook and she's pretty much sleeping in each spot and traveling in the day. People gave her some recommendations when she'd post from a city and she'd respond that she already left.

People don't ask me about Europe, even though I've been many times. They tend to ask me about Alaska since I'm born and bred. I've spent hours creating itineraries, suggesting restaurants, hiking trails, etc and NO ONE ever takes my advice. Really, they just want the generic cruise experience with thousands of other tourists. Oh well, no accounting for preferences.

disclaimer: I have never been on a cruise, but I think they would be a great way for larger families to get together and good for people with mobility issues.

"merguez with fries...." The first time I had that was in Clichy in the mid-1990s.

Some very salient and accurate points made by 1885BD on the various travel styles within the individual's comfort zones, such as regarding AC, which I don't require as a necessity and certainly will not pay extra for it. If it comes with the room price (super rare), fine, I'll take it. If it's an extra feature, like in wanting breakfast, then no dice. On boarding passes, which I don't do on-line, much less digitally, I wait until check-in to get that. I use a paper boarding pass. That's if I'm going alone, with the Mrs she'll insist on doing it on-line, etc.

The flying option is not an option unless under acute circumstances, otherwise it is the train, day or night train, if applicable. Renting a car is also not an option.

She's hitting 7 countries and 14 cities in 14 days.

Heavens. She should get many nice snaps of train stations, bus terminals and airports, eh?
Not much ELSE but, well, nice pix of stations, terminals and airports.

A few years ago two couples who are cousins of mine from the UK decided to visit us here in Canada.
Didn't want any advice re driving, where to see, etc.
They spent two weeks driving thousands of kms. between places, sometimes only staying one night in a place before driving all day the next day.
They complained that they didn't know it would be so far between places...…..
Never heard of maps, I guess.
Also complained that they didn't know they'd have to share a bathroom between them in the first B and B when they arrived.

Yikes.

"And yet, just because someone lives in ___ or been there X numbers of times doesn't necessarily make them an expert..."

I have a fb friend who is coming to my town ask me about accommodations. Well, I live here, so of course I've never STAYED in any of the hotels and B&B's. I have a little experience with how some of them look, since when I used to be a shoe buyer for a store I worked at, the salesmen would set up at the hotels, so I at least had an idea of how the rooms looked in 3 of them. From there, I was just going by my perceptions of what I may have heard about these places, or my totally judgmental view of how they look from the outside, which may not mean anything at all as to how they look inside.

I know a guy that when he graduated from college wanted to see six capitol cities in two weeks. What a fool. Everyone tired to tell him it was a waste of time and money. Landed in London, got a photo in front of Big Ben, then hopped on the train to Paris and got a photo in front of the Eiffel Tower, then hopped on a train. What foolishness!! Since then (many years ago) he has become very sucessful and keeps a second home in Europe. When reminded of that first trip, he always replies; "the absolute best two weeks of his life"; and he is serious. Good thing he didnt post here first.

"And yet, just because someone lives in ___ or been there X numbers of
times doesn't necessarily make them an expert..."

I have a fb friend who is coming to my town ask me about
accommodations. Well, I live here, so of course I've never STAYED in
any of the hotels and B&B's. I have a little experience with how some
of them look, since when I used to be a shoe buyer for a store I
worked at, the salesmen would set up at the hotels, so I at least had
an idea of how the rooms looked in 3 of them. From there, I was just
going by my perceptions of what I may have heard about these places,
or my totally judgmental view of how they look from the outside, which
may not mean anything at all as to how they look inside.

Nicole, all too often "locals" make the worst source of tourism advice, or at the very least have to be heavily subsidized. I live in a tourist city but my life has nothing to do with tourism, so what do I know? Then there is the "ive spent 21 days in .... " If its a city, then 21 days isn't much different than 3 days when it comes to learning the truth about the circumstances of traveling there. "On day 17 I rode the loopdeloop and because I got there at 9 am there was no line, you should do the same". Well, dear, at 9 am that day the country was in the semifinals of the World Cup at 9am. OR? Who knows.... Prove it to me 3 times and I will belive it.

I spend a lot of time in one city. So ask me what hotel to stay in. Go ahead ask! I have no freeking Idea. After well over a year in combined time in that city I am still no expert on hotels. You are better off reading the reviews. My other favorite is "WallaWalla is the best hotel in town". I presume you say that based on having stayed in them all?

There are no experts on this forum. None. How can you be an expert on something so subjective unless you have done a doctorate thesis. Its just people with experiences, some more than others, some more objective, some less objective, some that place an importance in comfort and others still trying to cram their life for 2 weeks into a 8kg carry on. No one is right. When ever I see someone grab that title, I just cringe....

My advice usually begins with "here is what I would do", without any claim that I am the least bit right in my opinion.

I am so enjoying reading the posts on this thread! I always have people ask me how to travel to Europe or they want to travel with me. I tell them I have a strict criteria for travel buddies which includes good physical fitness and ability to pack carry on only. That usually puts them off quickly and they are surprised I am so frank about it. I have decided over the years that everyone travels differently. I usually lend a travel book and then tell them to have a nice trip. I have met people for dinner to discuss "Europe" and I have done research on their behalf only for them to do something entirely different. So, I don't waste my time anymore. I don't want to be responsible for their happiness/disappointment on a trip. If I know they are not good potential back-door travelers to Europe, I tend to tell them to take a tour.

Margaret

Margaret, you are right I guess. No two people are alike so how can you begin to guess what makes them happy. I pass along my experiences, but who the heck knows me well enough to begin to guess if what I enjoy is what they might enjoy. Impossible. My "favorite" is the carry on only or you are doing it all wrong advice. I carry on most of the time, but there have been a few times when there was no way I was going to cram my tux in a carryon. "Well then, you dont need to go to those sorts of things to have a good time when you travel!" The hell I dont. Maybe you dont (her, not you), but from time to time I do. Then there is the Train vs Plane. I will do either but I prefer a plane if the total hours are about the same. That makes me a heritic in some circles. He has a travel vest (tacky), I have a travel blazer (classy).

Its like that guy I mention up above. The one trip that probalby broke 2/3rds of all the "good advice" was the best they guy had ever had.

So I pretty much stick to topics where I know enough to give a broad spectrum of ideas and couch it all in; just what I would do. Hey, maybe I am an EXPERT! An expert in avoiding being an Expert!!

"And yet, just because someone lives in ___ or been there X numbers of times doesn't necessarily make them an expert..."

I've lived close to the beach in the Florida panhandle for 20+ years. And there's a big disconnect between what I like to do and where I want to go to eat compared to the typical tourist down here, even though who claim to be wanting some sort of local insider information.

But hey, then the stuff I want to go see is less crowded that way

I think plenty of people here are absolutely experts! But you can be seasoned experts on (as James pointed out) the objective aspects, and not necessarily the subjective.

When I lived in Vegas I’d constantly have friends ask me for advice and suggestions for their upcoming Vegas trips, but it was nearly impossible to do. My usual response was “I tend to put a fair amount of time and effort in to avoiding the tourists here, so am not sure what I can offer”. When they ask me for restaurant suggestions, what good is my list if they love sushi and I don’t care for it at all? What can I say about wait times and lines when I rarely, if ever, go to the Strip on the weekends their trips always fall on? There were some Cirque de Soleil shows I didn’t much care for, but others thought were the best things ever.

So ultimately I found I could stick to the purely objective - I can’t tell someone which casino is the “most fun” and “luckiest”, but I can tell them which one has an ATM machine that doesn’t charge fees. I can’t tell them what bar or club is best, but can tell them how much the cover charges would be. I wouldn’t necessarily be able to guide them to a show they’ll love, but would know what nights those shows are dark and not an option. I can’t tell them what their must sees and must dos are, but can tell them a road between their own must see and must do will be closed for construction that weekend. I can’t tell them what hotel is best, but can point out which ones are smoke-free, don’t have casinos, or are more centrally located. I might not know whether they’ll actually enjoy the Hoover Dam, but would know how they get there and how long the drive would take.

Same goes for the other very worthwhile and informative replies I see folks offer up here - while you might not be able to convince someone the plane is better than the train, those tips on when to book the train tickets and what method of payment will be accepted - even where in a particular station the ticket booth is located - are invaluable. If someone’s dead set on visiting a monument or museum you know will be crowded, there’s still useful information in replies suggesting how to avoid peak times, how one might skip the ticket line, or even whether there’s a cheaper ticket option for them. Ya might not change someone’s mind on the What or the Where, but still offer up incredibly useful information on the How and the When.

There have been numerous museums and monuments I was " dead set" on seeing and visiting once I got to the city, especially those in London, France and Germany regardless of the time of day. Just a matter of priorities and how desperate one is or not.

kb1942 " RS should require all posters to put an explanation of their qualifications in their profile so those asking questions have some idea of the level of travel expertise behind answers. "

Yet your profile contains zilch. Perhaps you should lead by example.

I strongly suspect RS does NOT want to be in the business of licensing 'qualified travel advisors' , which essentially is what you propose.

After reading some of these horror stories, I realize how very blessed I am. Friends who have asked me for travel advice take it and tell me afterward how much they enjoyed themselves. . . including a Canadian going to Alberta and BC, who ended up postponed his trip for months because I suggested it and was so happy he did. It's reciprocal. They are generous with wise advice when I'm planning a trip too.

And the irony is that the itineraries in the Rick Steves books demand a pace and style of travel much more rushed than what many of the regular contributors on this site favor.

Travel advice. Perhaps a decade ago, in preparation for a trip, I sought advice from a business acquaintance who had actually moved to Europe and had traveled extensively through Europe. Our communication was by email. He was a person of, shall we say, strong opinions and sudden shifts in mood. In response to an email, which indicated that I was planning something different from what he had recommended, he wrote back, in strong wording, you haven't listened to what I have said so stop bothering me.

When I ask for advice, I am appreciative that people take the time to give it. I consider it. I weigh it with information from other sources. And then I make decisions based on what I like and want to do. I imagine that most do something similar. We all have different interests, different goals, different reasons for traveling, different likes and dislikes. The questions asked often seek subjective opinions and have no right answer--this isn't hard science. And it is our trip, not someone else's.

But sometimes when they don't listen it becomes amusing.....at least in private.

A number of years ago a friend of mine--okay, a relative but I hate to admit it--was going to Italy to visit his daughter doing a semester in Florence. It was his first trip to Italy. He is Mister Polyanna--everything and everyone is wonderful, children are the greatest thing in the world, and he wants everyone to love him.

I suggested for his trip he wear a moneybelt--I offered to lend him one--wear his wallet in his front pocket and if any kids come up to him or a woman with a baby, be wary as they may be thieves. He just said I was too negative and refused to follow any of my suggestions.

In Florence, a few kids came up to him begging for money. He thought they were cute and handed out coins to them as they circled him. They smiled, took the money and left.

Wallet gone. All his cash and credit cards were in it. He still couldn't believe these "beautiful" children could have taken his wallet.

Emma,

I think locals have a lot to contribute to this forum and I often read your posts knowing that you are giving sound advice for people who are traveling to London. It is very helpful to have someone living in the city and on the ground giving information. Just this summer a forum member from Guernsey gave me great trips for exploring the island. I have travelled back and forth to Europe 30+ times or more and I still need help. This forum is a great place to find it. My next adventure will be Croatia and I will be on the forum reading up on all the tips because I have no knowledge of Croatia at all. To be honest, without this forum I would not have imagined having the trips I have had recently. Spain, Netherlands, have all been great vacations because I wanted and took advice from this forum. So I guess it all depends on the travel style and if you are willing to act on the information you are being giving.

Margaret

Wow, It seems to me far too many people take their 'jobs' on this forum far too seriously. If you're not answering for enjoyment, then why bother? I discovered this site less than a year ago and I'm just having fun trying to answer some questions based on what I've learned so far through my limited European experience (4 trips in past 5 years). I don't care if you're my best friend, a poster on this site with 10,000+ posts or brand new. If I read your advice on here I'm not going to treat it like the gospel. I'll take that advice, and then do further research myself to see if it works for me. It might or it might not, but thank you for the suggestion.

Great post, Allen, and a good way to start this sunny Friday! The forums are sort of a mulligan stew with many travelers contributing different ingredients to the community pot? The result is often hearty and delicious, and not often the same recipe twice!

I don't see any animosity or lecturing in this thread. Just bemused commentary on human nature. The same commentary which could be applied to advice on any subject.

There’s lots of great advice on this forum, i am always learning. Then there’s some not great advice. A new poster might not be able to tell the difference. Then, of course, there are many different/opposing opinions (all fair) from people just trying to help.

I posted a question here 14 yrs ago. Couldn’t decide between going to the Berner Oberland or to Chamonix.
I got lots of replies. It was exactly 50% adamantly in favor of the BO and 50% adamantly in favor of Chamonix.
It didn’t help me at all - lol.

We went to the BO that year, and Chamonix the next year.

Some locals can be very helpful, but in the past i noticed one or two in a particular city were not. They couldn’t see that city through the eyes of a visitor, a tourist, and their negativity about the tourist sites and several neighborhoods was not helpful imo.
I think most locals on this forum are incredibly helpful and generous.

@emma:

We don't always agree, and have political differences. But I love Vienna, and your suggestions are so helpful. Please continue to contribute.

Susan - apparently it did help, since you did go to both :-) Now, what would be your advice to someone asking the same question. . . (not being snotty, just curious). Honestly, after having been briefly in both, I tell my friends to go to the Canadian Rockies instead.

I have learned to limit my advice to “I sure like traveling in Europe”.

That way I never get frustrated when a friend takes off for 10 cities in 2 weeks with one suitcase full of clothes and another full of toiletries.

Chani, no, it was not helpful. We were going to go to one that trip, and the other the next. I needed help with which one first. Equally opposing opinions wasn’t helpful.
I’d highly recommend Mürren in the Berner Oberland. Absolute bliss.
I love Mont Blanc in Chamonix, the best of the mountain tops for me, but i’m not a fan of Chamonix. We’ve been to Mürren and Chamonix both twice now, but Mürren is still the clear winner for me.

Wow on the thread opener! Heat can sap me fast so I can't imagine Europe in summer without air conditioning - no way, no how, as I cannot get rest at night so would have been exhausted and cranky. That in itself would have ruined that section of that trip for me.

Before brother and sil traveled on a Downton Abbey Tour through a travel agent, I gave some advice based upon observations, what I had learned here, and what we had experienced from our RS tour. He took it, found it helpful while there, had a good time, etc, etc. Sometimes you have to wish people would stay in touch while on their trip, especially when they encounter difficulties.
1] I had told him to take a few extra days worth of meds. He had carefully counted them out, but accidentally picked up the wrong bottle with the smaller number of pills and packed it into his carryon, leaving him not enough blood pressure medicine. He discovered this a few days into his tour. His tour director was not prepared to help. Not knowing he could seek help from a pharmacy or clinic over there he attempted to solve the problem by having more meds overnighted from the U.S. at great expense, but they were held up in Customs and never caught up with him and were destroyed in the end. Still no help or advice from the tour director to go to a pharmacy or clinic. When he realized he would have nothing left for the last few days of touring he figured he was out of luck unless he halved his meds until he got home so that is what he did. It could have gone very badly for him but luckily didn't. I was seething when I learned of all of this on their return. I can't believe any worthwhile tour guide would ever have allowed this to happen to someone on their tour.
2} My brother is large and tall so I had advised him to buy RT economy plus seats since his tour started and ended in London. All of my siblings and I suffer from RLS so I knew he would be miserable flying economy for that length of time. Their return flight home got rescheduled while they were over there and their new seats ended up not being side by side. He wanted their seats to be next to each other. I don't know if it was his travel agent (probable) or the airline he spoke with but he got new seats side by side. When he got on the plane to fly home their new side by side seats were in economy. He ended up standing most of the flight home. : ( So it pays to be diligent, ask questions, and make sure you are receiving the same thing you have paid for. I feel sure he would have opted for separate seats had he realized he was going to be stuck in economy.

I've had a few instances where advice was ignored because of what others in their group were doing- taking two or three big bags and half a dozen swimsuits on a ten day trip... that kind of thing, nothing major. I just roll my eyes on hearing this and go on.

BUT, one of the things that might have happened to us had I not been a reader on this forum came on advice from the travel insurance agent! When planning our trip with sister to London, Paris, Amsterdam, the company she was buying her travel insurance through advised her to wait until we were there to buy all tickets, even our Eurostar and Thalys tickets, so they didn't have to insure the tickets and the price of her insurance wouldn't go up. She called to tell me this and I told her she was welcome to wait but I was buying our tickets as soon as the sales opened and she could wait but a] she might not even get a ticket, b] it most likely would not find her seated with us, and c] that she was going to end up paying 3-4 times more than us. She decided to have me buy her tickets when I purchased ours. Her travel insurance rate didn't increase.

Chani, no, it was not helpful. We were going to go to one that trip,
and the other the next. I needed help with which one first. Equally
opposing opinions wasn’t helpful.

But Susan, sometimes there just isn't one answer that's right for everyone? Sometimes opposing answers are BOTH right depending on the criteria/tastes of the poser?

After all, we are obligated to give those with questions ......... wait, nope .... you get what you pay for.

Kathy, i agree completely. There usually isn’t one answer. I meant it wasn’t helpful to me in making a choice since we could only go to one that trip. So i just had to flip a coin. They’re both great places.

When deciding between two places, I like to hear advice. If anything, I'd like more detail on what you liked or didn't like. That way I can decide if those are important factors to me. I don't think just saying you liked one better is as helpful as saying why you preferred one over the other.

As an example, one place might have great four star hotels and Michelin starred restaurants. The other might offer only small family-run hotels and mom and pop restaurants. Two people can differ on which of those they prefer.

A similar example can be budget. Some places are great but too expensive for a budget traveler. I see questions about castle stays and skip them because I don't spend $300 a night for lodging. I might be able to offer good advice on lodging under $100. My castle stay is Burg Stahleck (hostel) overlooking the Rhine.

Ah. Gotcha, Susan! :O)

Thanks Kathy... : )

Brad, yes, the more detail like you describe, the better.

hey hey love reading all the answers.
@Kathy about mulligan stew, we all put something different in it.
I do have couple pet peeves I learned within my travels. First trip to Rome for 5 nights, then 17 day transatlantic cruise. packed an outfit for everyday OMG, had 50lbs so use it. our apt was on 4th floor, no elevator, lesson learned, pack light. like Europeans don’t have washers/dryers, laundry soap, or sinks to was and rinse hang to dry haha
Another is arriving too early for check in. Happened in London, had an Airbnb, no storage hold. Arrived 8am, checkin 1pm, thot have breakfast at airport, friend said let’s go early i’m sure apt available. Nope
Sat at bakery for 2 hours across street, was told to leave, sat at table/chairs outside of closed bar till 1pm. Never again. Either book day before, let hotel know and apt owner, extra day cost is all worth it to me. Ready when we get there.
have booked flights now that get in around noon, gives time to go thru passport/customs and ride to hotel. Happens next month for our France vacation and we’re happy.
try to give my suggestions or options, you’re on your own. I have heard a lot of ugly when they return and say should have listened. With a smile, you’ll learn next time. know someone that comes back on the weeken, they went london Paris Rome. Told her pack light, she thought I was crazy, took 2 50lb bags for her and 1 50lb for boyfriend, says he’ll carry all, he’s a strong man and his “job” will ask next week how trip was.
I want stress free, fun times and enjoy that glass of vino or champagne at sidewalk cafe.
aloha

@princess pupule, there is an app (or many) for luggage storage now. Bag bnb, nanny bag,.etc. not every place has storage near however. I wanted a simple Venice trip next year and when deciding on apartments, they either needed to offer luggage storage, or I needed to know beforehand there was a drop spot nearby. Used both these websites to determine that luggage storage at the tail of Dosoduro is not an easy thing.....helped me make the decision.

Ultimately, people will learn more from experience than advice.

"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." - Will Rogers

Some people don't want to hear the truth, they want affirmation of their proposals.

A significant number of first posters fall into one of two categories. The first is the group who goofed up big time (traffic tickets, train ticket validations, etc.) who come here to gripe that they've been "scammed" or "ripped off".

The other group comes here with totally unworkable plans to visit Europe for the first time, then get mad when seasoned travelers point out the folly of their itinerary.

UGH...all the time!! Everyone I know, knows that I am out of the country for at least 20% of any calendar year so they always ask me for advice. I have so many similar stories where I say that I don't recommend the overnight train, and why, and then they take the overnight train and have a horrible experience! Or I don't recommend the 22 hour layover in Moscow to get the cheap Aeroflot flight in the middle of January.
I often find that people will ask me about the greater Los Angeles area since I live there...as a resident though I really can't tell you much about getting around as a tourist here! I can't imagine having to go anywhere without a car and have no experience using public transport aside from Uber. I don't know how to get from the airport to your hotel at Disneyland...or how to get a tourist pass for the sights - is there even such a thing?? I am great with what to do and see but that's about all I know...don't even really know many good hotels.
Funny that I know more about getting around London and Norway than I do about my own country.

I think one of the biggest issues is that what one person sees as the perfect trip the next person will hate.
I have a very restricted diet made worse by personal tastes. So food is NOT my priority. I like a good meal once in a while but would rather grab a sub on the go and see something else then sit in a restaurant for a couple hours unless I am tired. Then when I am tired I usually pick the closes place. My friend things a day without a nice meal that takes an hour or more is not worth traveling for... Needless to say we do NOT travel together.

So I think that in order to get (and use) the best advice you need to find someone with similar interests and experiences. You can spend 6 months a year in Europe for decades but that does not (necessarily) mean you are the best to give.advise to the newbies that will be in Europe for 3 weeks total in Thier one trip ever to Europe.

If you like to go fast and see lots of tourist locations then you are the wrong person to advice someone wanting a slow trip. And if you avoid tourist locations then you are the wrong person to advice someone on a “if it’s Tuesday this must be Belgium “ tour,

There is no right way or wrong way to see Europe. But some things are more universal (such as avoiding lines).

Best advice to newbies be honest in what you want and give a good description of what you are interested in. Best advice to the old hands don’t try to convince someone that has his heart set on seeing the Eiffel Tower and the Tower of London that 6 days is to short to a time to do both London and Paris. It is hard but when giving advice you need to understand what the other person wants and not what you like.
In my profession I design buildings (mostly retail) for others but it is hard to remember that I am not designing it for my use, And sometimes the design I like best is not the right fit for the client. It is nothing personal.

As for tourist locations. Most old hands on here have been to Europe multiple times and are planning to go back again. But most newbies and probably most tourist in Europe will go only once in a lifetime. So they want to see those famous locations they have heard about for their whole lives. Not some little town in the middle of nowhere or even a big city. They want the tourist book photo locations. And as many as they can because unlike many of us on here they may very well never go back. For them it really IS a once in a lifetime trip.

wise words Doug. There are plenty of people out there that don't have any desire to spend 7 days in one place. As for seeing Tower of london and Eiffle tower in 6 days. Technically you can see them both in the SAME day, but that has to be all you want to see. Different people have different vacation goals, and I think the failure of some people on this forum is not recognizing that.

For the past 20+ years (a lot more actually) I had wanted to go to England. I had been to other places in Europe over the years but it had been a long while and I had never seen England (or Paris). And having an interest in history and buildings I have alwas been in love with three structures, Neu Schwanstein (sp?), the Eiffel Tower and Tower Bridge.

My mother had always wanted to go to Great Britain mostly because they spoke English and she disliked not being able to easily communicate.
We talked for decades about going. But for various reasons (time, money, other trips and such) we put it off and off and off. Until one day out of the blue my mother passed away. We had opportunities to go and see London. But we always wanted the “big trip” where we could take our time and see a lot of England. We could have managed a week or 10 days, but we thought it would be to limited or too rushed. So we to that time or the money and did something else.
Now looking back on it I regret that. As even 6 days would have allowed us to see SOME of London and maybe even a day or two in Paris. Would it have been ideal? No. But it would have been something.
These are the kind of things that need to be considered when discussing the various ideas for trips. We the people on this forum that advice others need to keep in mind. We never really truly know the situation that others are in.

And as I said before while many of use have been Europe a number of times (even as a relative amateur I have been in Europe a few times and total a number of months) but many folks may only ever get one trip and a short one at that. And SOME of Europe is better then none.
One recent poster was talking about a short trip to London and Paris with his daughter. And if that is all he has time or money for.. then he should grasp it with both hands as I am sure at some point he daughter will treasure the memories.
So I (personally) try to avoid passing judgment on trips and to give advice that can help the OP achieve the most enjoyable trip they can. But we need to remember it is not our trip.
If asked about a 10 day 6 city 3 country trip I would advise against it (gently) but if the poster has a good reason or just really wants to and has been informed of the difficulty and down sides then I try (and think we all should try) to give the poster the best advise to help them achieve the trip that we can. Even if it is not a trip we would choose.
So if someone asked if inexpensive fast food is an option while visiting Paris I would advise them that fast food is relatively easily available. Even if I personally think that a cafe is generally a better option.

So I guess that at least in part we have to take a least a little responsibility. In that sometimes we give advice that is not always all that useful to the poster, I once asked about hotels that you could see Neu Schwanstein from and most of the advice I got was to either stay a long way away, day trip it from Munich or to avoid it all together as it was a tourist trap ( I miss remember if that was on This forum but I believe it was). I am sure those advising this were very sincere in that advice but it was frankly useless to me.

Well I will get down off my soap box now.

PS I found a great hotel and had desert on my balcony looking up at the castle a truly great evening.

@douglasjmeyer
I hope your circumstances might change. I wish the best for your father, and you.

I've gained a lot of knowledge (we're beginners but old) from the posters on this forum. I miss Zoe's contributions and she gave us really good advice that made our trips more enjoyable.
And to Roberto, again no nonsense advice in general and, specifically, with his suggestion for Lago Maggiore.

As a novice, I try to weed out the solid information from the opinions. And I thank Laurel for her knowledge of Rome and Italy in general. And, again for Roberto, and Kathy.
I generally appreciate suggestions for areas that RS books don't cover (Piedmont, Aosta, Sicily- well until now). I don't take it as the gospel, but if folks have been there and have legitimate suggestions, I'm happy to read them.
Time is limited and we only have so many places we can still visit. I wish you all the best.

Happy travels!

I think the majority of posters here have been doing, and keeping in mind, what Doug wrote, for the 15 yrs i’ve been on this forum.

Yes, never pass up an opportunity. You may not have it tomorrow.

Don’t get me wrong most of the more longer term members that post responses here are nice folks that are going out of their way to try and help other. And get nothing in return other then the knowledge that they may have helped some else enjoy a trip.
However we are not experts nor trained travel advisors. We are just folks with different backgrounds and experiences.

The challenge is to try to give advice that is free of personal bias. And that is hard to do at the best of times.
And while some on this site tend to be very opinionated and biased the majority try to be helpful. That being said because those giving advice tend to (understandably) be more experienced they/we tend to be those that have gone to Europe multiple times and are often still going. So the tendency is to think long term and not so much in the same track as the one off trip of a lifetime types that often post here asking for advice,
And when a poster asking for advice on there one and only trip that they have saved up their whole life for encounters a response to slow down, skip tourist attractions and plan to return later to pick up the skipped parts. It is a bit of a cultural shock. And the poster goes away ignoring ALL the advise because they think this site is full of snobs.

An unfortunate situation as most here truly do try. Are most on here are really good people with good advice.

One recent poster was talking about a short trip to London and Paris with his daughter. And if that is all he has time or money for.. then he should grasp it with both hands as I am sure at some point he daughter will treasure the memories.

Carpe diem. We have a preferred way of traveling, but that isn't the only way we travel. A couple of years ago my wife had a business trip to London (poor dear). We arrived Sunday morning and flew out the next Sunday. Since we'd be there anyway and her meetings ended Wednesday, we decided to take the evening Eurostar to Paris and fly out of there.

While this isn't as much time as we'd like to spend, we ended up having a wonderful trip. We didn't try to do too much, we didn't go to the Tower of London but did go to Greenwich. We didn't go to the Eiffel Tower or the Louvre but did go to Pere Lachaise and the Musée de l'Orangerie. We had been to Paris and London before, but it was on a school trip back in 1966!

Luckily we got to return to France and London this year and spent a week in each location.

I go about it a little differently than Doug suggests. I don't attempt to be unbiased as much as try to be transparent about my personal biases (tastes) so readers can judge whether it would matter to them.

An example is Madrid, Spain is my least favorite city in Europe. Why? I really like history/architecture, especially predating 1500 (and prefer even earlier). My favorite part of any European city is its medieval center. Madrid is a really new city by European standards. It has no medieval center because it didn't become the capital city until 1606. I love Toledo, the old capital, because it has a great medieval center. Apart from El Prado museum, however, I'd be happy skipping Madrid completely.

I wouldn't tell people not to go to Madrid. I'd tell them why I don't like Madrid. Madrid has nice green spaces, tons of museums and lots of nightlife. If those are the top things you like, you would probably like Madrid.

Paris was our first European city—-visited decades ago. We fell in love with everything about it...the art, architecture, food, and yes, the people. We received so much kindness from waiters, storekeepers, people on the streets. Paris is always on our European itinerary...either at the start or end of a trip or maybe both. Our week-long stay this fall marks our 21st visit to our beloved second city. Over the years, we’ve gone through periods of favoring the Marais, the Opera, the 1st. We are in thrall with the Left Bank at the moment. Last three trips we have slept in tiny rooms in very ancient hotels near either Musee D’Orsay or Place Ste. Michele. Every visit we discover something new and wonderful and we thrill to repeating favorite experiences like strolling in the Jardin des Tuileries, munching on falafel in the Marais, viewing the Monet water lilies series at the Orangerie. When people ask where to go on their first trip to Europe, we both smile and suggest Paris! We always share some basics about language and etiquette. The friends that follow our suggestions seem to fall in love with Paris themselves. The one bit of advice people don’t seem to go along with is to stay as close to the center of the city as possible. They stay in a timeshare out in the 14th or thereabouts or pick an American style hotel outside the peripherique and then complain about how far away everything was from their lodging!

“RS should require all posters to put an explanation of their qualifications in their profile so those asking questions have some idea of the level of travel expertise behind answers.” - I agree. We should also be required to provide a phone number, just in case an answer is needed immediately.

LOL. Gundersen -- maybe also post street address, vacation plans and where the spare key is hidden.
;<)

Good stuff, Sarah.

Good luck to everyone who stays in a hotel in Paris in August with no AC. You can have it. I can deal with unpleasantness but I can't sleep while perspiring, which wouldn't result in much fun the next day.

I am thankful for and have taken a lot of advice from these forums.

Thanks, BigMike, I stay in a Paris hotel without AC, have done that in July and August too, even have been given the upper most room since it's a single. The last time in July was in 2011.

Commenting on itineraries is hit and miss. Some posted really want advice, others not so much.

Travel is very personal and expectations are unknowable so it makes it hard to give accurate advice but I love to read what everyone does have to say - it makes me reassess my own travel style and expectations.

I don't like to pack/unpack so when I see an itinerary that seems like too much packing/unpacking I might ask the poster "does that meet your travel style?"

Carry on versus checked bag - again "does that meet your travel style"

Cheap tickets versus "the flights I want the seats I want the dates I want" big difference. Friends of mine who travel far more than I finally realized premium economy IS worth the price now at 60+ years old it does make a difference.

I think most of the contributors are giving it their best shots when they answer questions.

Wow, this thread is still going! Glad to see it was (mostly) taken in the spirit it was intended - a bit of facepalming but yes, they did love their trip and do very much want to return. And they did take my advice to pack light (well, as light as you can when you're attending a wedding, ugh), to fly direct back to the US, etc.

The thing I should have emphaized in my original post is my experience is hard won from my own mistakes - and I still make 'em! Got stuck with a train strike in Naples last spring because I didn't bother to check. And I stayed in a hotel room in Paris without AC in July, which is why I was so adamant that they do not!

That said, when I ask for advice on this forum and I get it from people who have traveled to the area more than once (or live there) I definitely consider it strongly and often it has been the deciding factor in a decision and 90% of the time has been the right call!

Fred, you are my inspiration. The wind beneath my wings.

Yes, premium economy does make a difference in how you feel upon arrival, especially as you get older.

Nearly the same could have happened to me if I didn't discover this forum. I was planning to have a tour over Central and Western Europe in 14 days when someone pointed out that this tour will become a tour of European airports and not the cities. Luckily, I paid attention to what other people said and will be spending this time in France only this October.

I try to learn from other people’s mistakes.

I am creative enough that I can create my own new and unique mistakes, I don’t need to make mistakes others have already discovered.