Ladies, this is packing light

That is a riduculus list,, four dresses, six pairs of pants/jeans, three pairs of short, ,thee nighties,, for TEN days . i do not even beleive you could fit all that in a carry on.. and why would anyone need that much!

"Ladies, this is packing light". That is amusing. Ha ha ha, ho ho ho, hee hee hee. I looked at that web page. I saw the photograph of her with the big pile of clothes. Looking at the expression on her face, I infer that the packing list is not real, she was merely being silly.

I still remember the jaw-drops at work when I told them we were doing 23 days in Europe with a carry-on each plus our personal size bags...lol...but I have to make sure when booking hotels/whatnot, that about 1 week in, to find somewhere with free laundry facilities- our 1st 19 day trip, I never had time or could find a laundry when I did have time...well, now I know to make sure to find a place to do it at least once in a 20 day trip...

This is hilarious (on a site called "The Everyday Minimalist" no less!) but I disagree with what some people are making fun of. I pack 2 pairs of shoes for almost any trip, whether it's 2 days or 10 days, because I usually go out to at least one nice dinner, in a pair of shoes that are not comfortable for a ton of walking. And for trips of 3 days or more, I like two pairs of comfortable shoes to alternate each day, which really helps prevent blisters and sore feet. So I have a hard time packing less than 3 pairs of shoes, honestly. I did a 7 day trip to France last summer with 2, one was a nice pair of sandals that could get me "by" in a nicer establishment or work with a sundress or skirt. I'm trying to stick with 2 now, but I really don't think 2 pairs of shoes is even slightly unreasonable. MANY people do want to swim at their hotel or even go to the beach, so one swimsuit is necessary for most. But yeah, 3 is ridic. I get a nightgown or PJs, if you are sharing a room with a friend or at a hostel or someplace with a shared bathroom, you're gonna want to wear something to bed. But more than 1-2 sets seems silly. What gets me are the pants and tops. I was always taught you can wear a pair of jeans twice before you need to wash them. The fact that she has more pants/skirts/dresses and tops than days in her trip is mind boggling to me.

Maybe she's a size zero? I'm always amazed what my wife can get into her 20" roll-on (she is size four). She says one pair of my underwear is the same as five pairs of hers. She's right (and I'm an average size man). My wife carries a lot more clothes, and shoes, than I do. As long as she can fit it in a regulation carry-on, I'm happy.

Must be a joke. Cut the shorts, the skirt, the dresses, the nightgowns, the swimsuits and sarong. Nix the extra shoes and the clutch. Cut the number of shirts in half (or cut a bit more than that) and you are close to what I pack. I did an around the world trip with less than what she listed.

The sad part of this is that there are still people out there who pack like this, and they take even bigger suitcases! My daughter had a class trip to Colorado last fall and too her 4 day supply of Clothing and GF snacks in carryon. The majority of Kids had to check their luggage! She was stunned. These are college kids. Even the boys had giant suitcases according
To her. People still think I am nuts to travel with an "itty bitty" bag as they call it. But, when we are moving through the airport with ease, I can't help shaking my head at those who brought their entire walk-in closet's contents with them. All praise to the lovely Rick Steves for showing me the light.

Here is what I don't get. The article said that this was for a 10 day trip. Why do you need 16 shirts and 4 dresses (that is at least 20 outfits) for a 10 day trip?

I remember when I studied abroad in Spain & then did an internship in Sweden in college and packed so much!! When we were met by the college kids in Sweden they were blown away by how much myself and my friend had packed (for 6 weeks). Funny....why do you need 3 nightgowns? Isn't one pair of PJs enough? Clearly she never wears anything twice. Now the hard part is coming for me...to convince my hubs we don't need a checked bag for our 7 day trip to Ireland. Luckily he only wants to share one, but little does he know he will be lugging it through the airport! :) Thankfully we will be driving, so it won't be the biggest hassle in the world.

Oh ... and did you notice that she forgot to pack any socks or undies? I'll refrain from commenting on that.

I give my mom a hard time about her packing style, "I don't bring more than two outfits per day." She still uses the small suitcase that's just for toiletries. She came back from one trip with a sore shoulder from lugging her stuff around; it turned out she needed shoulder surgery. There are several concepts that are antithetical to packing light. Thinking you need to pack outfits rather than mix and match items. Thinking you need to pack heavy clothes rather than layers. And not wanting to do laundry while you are on the road.

Sheesh. I don't even own three bathing suits. I also only have two sets of pajamas. I also don't have that many fancy places to go whilst on vacation that would require "dress" clothes. However, if she can fit all of that in her carry-on, no complaints from me.

How is her being a flight attendant relevant? This must be for a leisure trip since I don't see a uniform in the packing. If she's not constantly on the go for her job, she has time to wash as she goes. If she used cotton/polyester blends and packed some drip dry clothes pins and inflatable hangers she could cut the number of clothes by more than half. Three night gowns for 10 days. What does she do in bed to get them dirty? The simple places I stay in don't have swimming pools, and the German Spas I have gone to don't require (allow?) bathing suits. No need for even one bathing suit. Roll packing is a crock. Maybe it compresses the clothes some, but they still weigh the same. To me, packing light has to do with weight. I flat pack everything and still get it in. And it's much easier to get a clean shirt out of my mesh shirt bag then to unroll the whole mess to get what's on the inside. One pair of shoes is all you need, and you wear them on the plane. Same with a jacket in the summer or ski parka in the winter. If she'd cut down on the amount of clothes, it would save weight, and she wouldn't need the wheeled bag, and that would cut the weight even more. What's more, the structure necessary for a wheeled bag takes up space, so you get less space for your stuff. My daughter once tried to give my wife a used rolling suitcase. It was regulation size on the outside but at least two inches smaller in all directions on the inside. She gave it back.

Eli, Thanks for posting - I needed a bit of humor to brighten up my morning. Even if she can fit the entire list into a carry-on using rolling & bundling, that's a ridiculous amount of kit for a 10-day trip! My first impression was that this was a joke, but I think it's possible this could be true. She seems to be quite pleased with herself and her ability to fit all that into a carry-on. There are still lots of people that don't subscribe to the "pack light" philosophy. I've encountered some couples on trains that each have a gargantuan wheelie bag. On trains with compartments, they usually store these in the common hallway, at least until the Conductor discovers that the hallway is obstructed and "tears a strip off them". Cheers!

Here's what I pack, in addition to what I wear on the plane) for 14 days: Medium weight sweater to wear under jacket/parka on cold days Washabe Kahki slacks (2) Walking shorts (1 pr, in summer - Sorry, Kent) Washable, golf style shirts (5) Shorts and sox (2 pr) (Shirts and U-wear are cotton/Poly blend and dry overnight) Drying stuff (drip dry clothespins, inflatable hangers, clothesline) Toiletrys (in zippered, vinyl, school pencil case) Stuff bag w/ battery charger & adapter (I do carry an umbrella.) I have a page on my website devoted to light packing.

Lee, thanks for the link to your "packing light." It's always good for me to have a refresher before a trip, plus I am sharing it with someone who thinks this woman's packing list is normal!! I am glad some of you got a chuckle out of this post. It is still amazing to me to think back to the good old days when I was a teen travelling to Europe for the first time, and I took two of those huge, hardside Samsonite suitcases. It's been such a long time now that I cannot remember how I got them out of the airport. Someone must have helped me. I think I must have packed all my shoes and everything in my wardrobe. Interestingly enough, when I had first joined this board, the idea of packing as light as some do had scared me. How on earth would we manage for four weeks, with so little clothes??? But we did! And we lived to tell about it. Mind you, I am still looking at the outfits (mix and match) in those photos, and they're like our uniforms. But I do remember watching people getting their luggage off and on trains and delighted in how much huffing and puffing they were doing, whilst we would almost swing those bags on our back, and trot off in style...okay, not so stylish because the clothing became boring, but you know what I mean, LOL

Thanks Eli for that link. There is a time I also would have thought that light (well except for 3 bathing suits and 3 nightgowns!!)! I used to be the one at the baggage counter who had the extra tag on the checked bag marked heavy. :( I like this notion on the blog maitaispicturebook of a travel wardrobe. Much too elegant for me but instructive nonetheless. http://www.maitaispicturebook.com/2011/07/capsule-wardrobe-43-new-york-travel.html

I don't care what you take on a long trip, as long as you can get it all in a 21" carry on bag and a shoulder bag. You must also be able to lift the carry on into an overhead storage on the airplane, and be able to walk for a minimum of 2 miles with your "load." If you cannot handle your bags, somethings got to stay at home.
I'm sorry, but I don't carry anyone's bags but my own. And, I never check any luggage with the airline.

I notice we never see a picture of the bag CLOSED! However, check this one out http://www.everydayminimalist.com/?p=7736 the other end of the spectrum, and a little light, even for me. My packing list for a month in France and Italy - to pack in an 18" CALPAK rolling backpack (including what I'm wearing) 2 lightweight travel pants (1 black, 1 tan) 2 skirts (one black, one tan) 4 chiffon tops - all tops go with all bottoms 1 lightweight black cardigan 1 windbreaker jacket 2 tank tops 2 bras/3 undies 2 pairs socks pajamas 2 scarves/pashminas camera/iphone/garmin/ebook with attendant chargers very minimal make-up & hair products clarks privo walking shoes
clarks privo sandals I did a test pack, and it weights about 15 pounds.

Ruth, that is pretty darn impressive. Ours can be tricky when we travel in winter to Bretagne. It's cold, rainy, damp, and windy, but we've gotten better at layers an less bulky sweaters, and our tri-climate jackets really do trick. I took a pair of boots and Merrill Mary Janes. The boots keep my feet warm while out hiking and never cause me any problems with soreness.

I know Rick doesn't recommend packing jeans, but unless you're travelling during the hot summer months, I think jeans are a must-have, a travel basic. You can dress them up or down and wear them almost anywhere. As far as washing them, I would never consider trying it in a hotel sink. But how often do you really need to wash your jeans? Unless you're out hiking in them, working up a sweat, you can wear a pair of jeans several times (assuming you wear underwear)! Besides, many hotels offer a laundry service. For a two-week trip, I only do laundry once (except underwear, which I wash by hand). I never travel with more than a 21" roller board and a small backpack. I agree, you need at least two (maybe even three) pairs of shoes. When traveling in fall or spring, I never bring shorts, skirts or dresses; a pair of black dress pants and black leggings work for evenings with ballet flats. Other travel must-haves: a jean jacket, rain jacket and long sweater. Plus solid color long or short-sleeved tee shirts to mix and match and a couple of scarves to dress them up with. Gym shorts or light-weight yoga pants are perfect sleepwear.

Lynette, I'm with you on the jeans. It doesn't make sense to me to dress SO differently than I do at home. And I wear jeans every day. They are tough to deal with since I refuse to dry mine (I'm tall and can't run the risk of them shrinking), but heading to a laundromat on the day of my arrival in a city where I'll be for a few days works fine--they have a chance to dry before I have to pack them up again.

Anyone ever read Erma Bombeck's "When you look like your passport picture, it's time to go home" (or something like that). She tells a good story about buying an interchangeble travel wardrobe. This link reminded me of it.

I have learned to say "laundromat" in a few different languages since I REFUSE to lug dirty laundry around the continent. Laundromats are a MUST in areas where smoking is allowed (i.e. Austria, Hungary, Eastern Europe). This article posted by the "flight attendant" is a joke. You want to learn how to pack light? I'll show you (for travel in spring/fall when I usually go): A 2 week trip 3-4 pairs of jeans 7 short sleeved shirts 1 or 2 zip-up hooded sweatshirts 1 pair gym shoes 1 pair flats 2-3 nice shirts Toiletries/meds 7 pairs underwear 2 bras 7 pairs socks Done. Find a laundromat, or Waschsalon, or Lavanderia. Stop carrying dirty laundry with you.

After reading all these responses I'm too embarrassed to give you my packing list. My sister and I are pretty darn fastidious yet we can travel in England for 4 weeks and do no laundry save socks. My sister, she's the bossy one, won't allow it. The dirty laundry stays in a bag in the trunk of the car so we don't actually "carry" it.

@Nicole, ditto on the funny looks you get for traveling light! When my MIL drove my husband and me to the airport for our 2 week European adventure, she thought we were crazy (and asked repeatedly if we were sure we had everything). And we were crazy. We took one carry on suitcase (a roller) for both of us and one backpack (a Jansport book bag). We packed a duffel bag in our suitcase just in case, since we were pretty tight, but we made it through with only one stop in a laundromat (we washed a few articles in the sink once or twice). Next time, we're packing more, but not by much. I'm not washing in the sink anymore. That was so not worth it to me. We'll each be carrying on a suitcase and a daybag. I still don't think we'll take any where near the amount of stuff this flight attendant takes!

OK- seems we are sharing packing lists. Here's mine, including what I wear on the plane. 3-4 pair cotton blend pants (black, kahki, or grey) 4-5 Ts- sleeve length and weight depends on season (red, black, grey, cobalt blue or purple) 2-4 "big shirts" (button-up shirts that can be worn alone or layered over Ts like a blazer, must coordinate with colors above, sleeve length depends on season. might sub in one light weight cardigan if heading for really cold weather) Scarves Hooded jacket (weight depends on season- in winter add gloves and hooded scarf if needed) umbrella- maybe 3-4 bras 7-9 undies 7-9 pair socks 1 pair black walking shoes Sewing 'kit', first aid 'kit', medications, toiletries, elecrtonics and chargers, etc. (together these weigh more than the clothes I pack, lol)
Have done trips of 7-15 days length and could make do with less if I felt it necessary. I carry all our meds and most of our toiletries. Hubby's suitcase will weight about 10 pounds and mine about 12-15 lbs.

To each their own is all I have to say...

I always travel using a 21" roller carry on, that empty, weighs 3 1/2 pounds. It doesn't matter if the trip is 2 weeks or 3 months! The only differencce is the amount of laundry I do in the sink! Want a little hint ladies - save all your old ratty undies for your trip, then wear and throw out. Cuts down on the laundry for a week or so. This trip (2 mo. in Switzerland) I will have about 24 pairs saved up, as I didn't travel anywhere last year!!! Happy travels everyone.

Hmmm, packing light, always a heavy subject. 2 pairs of jeans for my trips not matter the length, 2 weeks or 3 months and I have done both with just two pairs. On the 3 month trip we did not wash our jeans until week 6 when they could practically stand on their own. No money for a laudromat so into the tub down the hall for a session of foot stomping and slapping them around the tub with hot soapy water. We laughed about how we fealt like the ladies in the olden days who washed clothes by beating them on stones in the river. Then we carried the dripping mass of jeans back to our room (after ringing them out the best we could) to hang over the open window or balconey for the next 3 days while they dried. This washing had to be done on the first day of a city where we were going to be for at least 4 days because of the required dry time. It always worked and was free.

I've been obsessed with travel wardrobe concepts and packing lists for a while, but became even more so after Mme Eli's original post. I found a wonderful website (I did rescan the prior posts and do not think it was listed before) for capsule wardrobes. What I like is her use of accessories and the colors she puts together for her traveling wardrobe suggestions. It's theviviennefiles dot blogspot dot com. I'm testing it out next week on a domestic flight, going to be gone for just a week. I'm also weighing clothing to take (or wear) the heaviest pieces. Just need to weigh a knit jacket and a cardigan and take which is lighter!

Thanks, Pam, for pointing out Vivienne's blog. Come back and let us know how it worked for you. Some of her things are too dressy for me, but it's interesting to consider. On a different question, am I the only one who books apartments with washers?

I wish Pam HADN'T posted that blog...I'm drooling with jealousy over outfits I can't afford! But seriously, what a clever site and even if I can't afford her versions of the outfits, it gives me some inspiration to streamline and improve my own packing. Thanks!

Oh, I totally agree I can't afford anything she posts!!....well except she posted one recently showing what she wears most from her closet. They were mostly Land's End sweaters and cardies and Eddie Bauer pants, which are affordable and are the casual level that fits my life. If you look back in her blog, she does a series called not-so-crazy 8's which she uses for her wardrobe basics. When I look at them, I just have been mentally substituting pants or crop pants for her skirts and dresses and cardigans for her blazers or dressy jackets. She usually works in Tee shirts- Long and short sleeves so I'm good with that. I have been scanning the stores locally which have a pretty pitiful choice! I live in N. Idaho, nearest stores are a fairly crummy Macy's and a little bit better Macy's, JC Penney, Eddie Bauer Outlet, Ross Dress for Less and Christopher and Banks. I have decided on black for my base color and have black pants and black crops. I finally found black jeans (KMart) and have a solid black cardigan (Ross) and a black and white print cardigan (Penney's). I've got a variety of black, white and black and white Tee shirts. I've got a couple of scarves and some necklaces, bracelets and earrings (none expensive, no Hermes for me!) I'm hoping my bag will be under 15#. What I like about her suggestions is that it gives me a basic template that I can fill either from my closet or if I'm in the mood for something new, from what is available locally. My goal is to build a couple of her not-so-crazy 8's in different colors. Vivienne has also done some neat capsules at the blog afemmeduncertainage dot blogspot dot com. Go back to March 9 for a suggestion for spring travel to Paris in pink and gray and then March 7 for Shades of Blue travel wardrobe to Paris. I covet the blue patterned cardigan!!

Eli, go to the Vivienne site and look back to March 29. She has done a wardrobe for someone who had asked for a capsule for Russia in late May. The lady specifically requested some more formal outfits because they have IIRC 3 formal or dressy events. I'm guessing you are younger than she is so might not wear the colors the person asked for, but will give you an idea. Usually the shoes she shows are not sturdy enough for me either. I am going to want something more substantial for sightseeing!

Kathy, I've booked apts with washers but that was not what drew me to them. That was like the icing on the cake! Lol I'm going to check out the website posted. Always looking for packing light feedback, but would love creative ideas so am not bored with the same clothes on long trips. Going for three weeks this time in May and would like to be comfortable, smart and even a little bit chic if possible! Copenhagen, Ghent, Amsterdam and Normandy in May. Any tips? Am sure there will be rain! Cooler temps, and taking a few boat trips...trying to see how I can be light and comfortable, but chic as well.

I am also always obsessed with my travel wardrobe... look good, pack light, etc.... so I will look up the blog.
After a recent trip to Spain & Morocco one of the very fashionable young women who went with us started a fashion blog that I think some of you may enjoy. It's called My Closet in Sketches, and she has a funky, fun, sometimes retro approach to her fashion and pairs lots of vintage or found items to make some fun outfits. She always looked amazing on our trip and has some of the outfits she wore in Europe on her blog. Her motto is 'always an excuse to dress up' and what better excuse than a trip to Europe. Clothes are part of the fun!

Terry Kathryn, cute blog! I love her art...so fun and fresh. Thanks.

Pan, I LOVE that site! Drooling and making mental notes as well as scanning my wardrobe for what I already have. I imagine May travel will have some showers
And cooler temps. Heard it can be wet and windy in Normandy. Will try to find a nice jacket that can handle the elements in spring and also be waterproof.

I travel to Europe at the end of Nov, returning 1-2 weeks later, so no bathing suits and shorts for me. i have never regretted traveling with jeans. I bring 2-3 pairs, all shades. And they hold up great as I feel jeans feel better after wearing them a few times. Plus they are wrinkle resistant. My pack list 4 sweaters/long sleeve somewhat heavy shirt 4 long sleeve waffle shirts to go under sweater 2-3 pairs of jeans 7 smart wool socks 7 underwear 1 pair of winter walking boots sleepy time pants and shirt My not too heavy, not too thick winter coat Scarf
Gloves (which hardly get worn, just shove hands in pockets) I pack em up in compression bags and then shove themm into packing cubes for maximal orgainization/demension shape for our carry on Osprey porter 60 backpack. But I am always amazed how heavy toiletries are and how much space they take up. And I am not including my flat iron either

Kelley, I've found myself buying toiletries wherever I land because it's fun to try new things, and saves on weight. Sometimes I get really good results, and sometimes not. Very few things I HAVE to take with me because of allergic reactions. Hubby is interested in a bag with wheels because of back problems (recent), so I'm going to search for one that isn't too heavy.

Mimi, do those Ralph Lauren shirts sink wash well? Great list!

Kathy from Seattle had expressed an interest on how my packing went. I weighed my bag on the way out of the house on the day I left and it came in at 13.4#. Wore in transit: Black jeans Black and white 3/4 sleeve shirt Black cardigan Black Earth lace up shoes underwear and socks Then this is what was in the bag for 7 days: 1pr black pants 1pr black capris 1pr black workout pants 2 short sleeve white shirts (did not wear one of them!) 2 short sleeve black shirts (did not wear one of them!) 1 3/4 sleeve white shirt 1 black and white print cardigan 1 workout shirt 1 sleep shirt 3 underwear 2 bras (one regular, one sports) 3 pr socks 1 pr black Earth sandals jewelry (didn't wear all of it, but it was a learning experience to take it!) scarves (didn't wear but one of them, but also a learning experience) Toiletries
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Continued ... The bag was way heavier when I came back from my conference weighed down with books and reference material, but the bag was still easy for me to handle and heave up into the overhead bins. BTW, I fly out of Lewiston ID and was flying in to a small airport so had the Alaska Dash 8 (or whatever the smallest planes they fly) with tiny overhead bins. The OPEC bag I used fit easily in to the bin, so didn't have to A La Carte it. In evaluating what I took, I would probably cut out one of the black shirts, but still take 2 white shirts. If the white shirt is a pivotal part of my wardrobe, I am a slob and need a back up! BTW, if anyone thinks this was light because I am tiny, I assure you I am not! I did cave in and weigh all my clothing. I wore the heaviest clothes on the plane. My lightest shirt was 3 oz...just a black kind of puckery material Tee from KMart which washes and dries like a charm. Maybe they will get some white ones in for summer, if so I am going to buy several. Next time I will switch out the B/W cardie with a colorful print plus more colorful Tee shirts. This was a good test for me!!

Just finished packing for 23 days May/June Dolomites to Umbria/le Marche. Totally OCD about carry-on and the perfect wardrobe in the smallest (20") case! I'm un-young and un-small and like lots of clothing choices so the challenge takes me at least a month to collect and fit in - things added and deleted; bought and returned. I've been going to Europe since 1960 and I've done the backpacking; the overpacking; the underpacking and the lost luggage; and the all-black wardrobe - now i need some colour to show I'm alive and kicking. This time my suitcase holds: ~ light wt. rain jacket ~ wide-brimmed sun hat ~ bathing suit/cover-up ~ beige/black bras ~ 5 pair undies ~ black/white cami ~ dressy white waterfall cotton sweater ~ nightgown ~ black/cobalt blue cotton tunics ~ 2 3/4 sleeved cotton tees ~ 2 patterned Lauren shirts - beautiful cotton that doesn't crush. ~ grey/black/beige cotton capris ~ coral slim jeans (stylin'!) ~ dressy black capris ~ 3 large long patterned scarves ~ Keen sandals - casual/Naot sandals - dressy/Merrell trail runners ~ 3 pair socks ~ black cashmere cardie Whew! That works out to 21 pounds total weight. Then I have a case that attaches to the suitcase for my meds/cosmetics/ e-reader/camera/netbook and a few guidebooks. That's almost as heavy as the main suitcase! On the way home I throw all my clothese/books/junk into a duffle and check it through keeping all my new
treasures with me as carry-on.

Pam - haven't washed or worn them yet - I'm sure they'll do just fine - and so they should! Even on sale they were pricey. BTW, this packing list works well b/c we're in a B&B one week, an agriturismo another week and hotels the last week - so if necessary any washing can be
done the 2nd week.

If you are young and pretty, you can pack light. The older you are, the more it takes in makeup, hair products, and prescription medicines, as well as contacts, glasses, prescription sunglasses, and regular glasses, solutions etc. The list seems to grow every year. Just saw Cameron Diaz getting off the plane in Kauai in early April....with one very small suitcase. Hey. if I looked like that, I could do it too! Of course over there, shorts, T-shirts, swimsuits, and a pair of flip-flops work well. And these days, electronics, cameras, and chargers also take a lot of room. The packing lists always look like a man wrote them.
I did go to Eurpoe the last time with one bag. OMG did I get tired of those clothes!!!

Janis...I am 62. Not pretty by any means! I have cut down on makeup just because even the hypo allergenic eye makeups make me itch. I do use a lip pencil and gloss but that is about it. I want to look as good as I can for me.

Janis - I'm 71 and I take all the things you mentioned except my contacts are Dailies. The camera, netbook, e-reader, binoculars, cords, chargers, etc. all fit into my legal small hard-sided case with the meds, costmetics, guidebooks and other assorted must-haves. The only things I need to buy when I arrive are nail file, shampoo and conditioner. I admit I'll put away the wardrobe when I get back but while I'm there I'll have a large enough selection to quell any fears of old-lady-dom. At least I hope so. In days of yore I've had suitcases go missing for up to 3 days and I've had luggage sit on a tarmac in a rainstorm so my clothes were sopping wet and I'll do almost anything to avoid a reoccurance of those
scenarios.