Itinerary Review & Input please

Oly,

To begin with a few questions....

• Where are you interested in visiting on Lago di Garda? Some of the communities there are not exactly "easy" in terms of transportation. As you're travelling with two teenagers, were you planning on visiting Gardaland?
• In Switzerland are you more interested in cities (with day trips) or more out in the pastoral countryside. One suggestion that immediately comes to mind is Lucerne. You might all enjoy the excellent Museum of Transport there, and it's also a good location for day trips such as cruise on the lake, Mt. Pilatus or Rigi, etc.
• Is there a particular town in the Burgundy region that you're interested in using for a home base?
• Are you planning to travel from Paris back to London on the same day as your return flight to the U.S.
• Finally, are you using any of the RS guidebooks for planning your trip.

Hello - Garda would be the cities in the south accessible by train with boat day trips (no, not planning to do the amusement park.) We have been to Como before and loved it and so were looking for a similar experience, but in a new place. I have not been to Switzerland before. So your suggestion of something like Lucerne as a base makes sense. Burgandy is a newer consideration and I confess I haven't done my research yet about home bases. It's trying to maximze the "as the crow flies" concept to get us back ultimately to Paris and spend time in smaller areas. And I think I mis-wrote the itinerary. We do mean to go back to London for one night prior to flying home. So that would mean taking out one night in the middle (probably where our plans feel more fluid.) I have used RS before and will certainly be consulting the books, but not necessarily planning everything based out the book (thus the incusion of Garda, for example.)

Oly,

Thanks for the additional information. As you're not planning to visit Gardaland, you might consider visiting Lago Maggiore rather than Lago di Garda, staying in Stresa. I much prefer that to Garda, but that is of course personal preference. While there you could visit the elegant Borromeo Islands (especially Isola Bella), perhaps take the Cable Car to the Alpine Gardens and summit on Mt. Mottarone, or take a day trip to Locarno (Switzerland) on the scenic Cento Valli Railway, returning to Stresa in the early evening by boat. I can provide some sightseeing information for Locarno if you're interested.

That will also put you closer to Lucerne, so a shorter trip.

Oly - I would question your (admittedly not very specific) dedication to "Burgundy". I don't suppose your kids are seriously into wine? Burgundy is fine, and on a leisurely trip around France for more experienced travelers would probably satisfy (especially foodies). But IMHO, for a first trip to France, if you're looking for someplace in France to spend a few days (other than Paris), I think the Loire Valley and/or Normandy pack a lot more "wow" for most folks.

On my first overseas trip with my then-girlfriend/now-wife, I dragged her away from Paris to Normandy, Mont Saint Michel, to several of the more jaw-dropping Loire Valley Chateaux, Avignon, and Carcassonne as the cherry on top. She was blown away (probably why she married me) - even though we spent a bit of time driving around France in our rental car. It was an awesome trip. If I were you, I'd skip Burgundy and try to slip in some of the places I listed above - they are very special and your kids won't ever forget them (neither will you).

Although many people would disagree with this, I try to maximize the benefit of a trip to Europe (or anywhere) by doing the things there that I can't do at home. Hot air ballooning? Yeah, I'm sure it's nice in Tuscany. But I can go hot air ballooning in Snohomish for a fraction of the cost, any nice day, any time (and it'll be pretty nice). But seeing the sun through the stained glass windows of Chartes Cathedral? - can't do that at home for any price. You can ride your bikes in Yelm any time you want, but seeing the tide come in at Mont Saint Michel is (for most of us) a very magical, once-in-a-lifetime highlight of any trip. I have nothing against doing fun activities while away, but I try to remember which things I can only do in Europe - there are more of those than time available. For me (and I suspect for most), the most limited commodity we have is time-in-Europe. Be sure you take advantage of that time as much as you can.

No car rental? OK, just know that by making this declaration, you really limit your options. Sure, there are lots of places where having a rental car is just an expensive headache, and you really don't want one there. But in other places a car opens up wonderful opportunities. What a shame it would be to miss great places just because "cars are bad."

You are 100% settled on round-trip to London? OK, but...you are burning a couple days by sticking to that. Flying home from Paris effectively buys you another day or two. What would you be willing to spend to get two more days in Europe? Depending on hotel costs (London is super-expensive), and LHR has the highest departure taxes (built into your ticket price), and the cost of getting BACK to London...you might actually save money by re-thinking (even changing) your flights. Worth a look.

Hope some of that helps. Have fun.

That's a lot of moving around. How efficiently will you and your teens pack up and move around over nearly 3 weeks of intensive experiences? Your group will only move as fast as the slowest person (at any given time). Does anyone need dragging out of bed? Who dawdles over breakfast? How much time will you need to allow to get to/from train stations and airports? How much luggage will you have? Will you have checked bags on flights? Are you going to send laundry out (expensive) or spend hours at laundromats or are the kids going to do hand laundry every couple of days?

Burgundy has charming villages, bike tours, chateaux, ancient abbeys, and more. Rent a car when you get there, stay in a village and explore for 3 days or more, then TGV to Paris from Dijon. Or visit Alsace instead. There are charming, colorful villages, bike tours, chateaux, a magnificent cathedral, ancient churches and more. You may find it easier to get to Strasbourg than Burgundy.

My initial thought would be to make Switzerland both your mountain and lake experience, and forego Lake Garda. I would make your Swiss experience 5 nights, 2 on Lake Lucerne and 3 in Lauterbrunnen or Murren. Fly to Zurich from Venice (your stay here sounds non negotiable). The third night from Garda I would add on to Paris where a 4th night is definitely desirable.

Fantastic food for thought particularly about things not able to be done in U.S, though biking for pace and ground level views is still high on our list. To modify my comments...a rental car within a country for part of the trip is certainly possible. I meant that we'd not want to pay the inter-country drop off fees to have a car for moving between two or three countries. I understand we've made time trade-offs re: in and out of London. Tickets are purchased and so now we're just seeking to maximize our route given that. Venice seems hard to miss for the kids but it is the city that's furthest from everything else (that flight has NOT yet been purchased). Guess it's time to have some family discussions about trade-offs and retool again. The suggestion to make Switzerland both lake and mountain stop may have some legs. We've really struggled with shaping this itinerary In that middle section bouncing between various northern Italian cities in and out of scope. Thanks to those who take such time to share their experience. I truly appreciate it.

Definitely include the kids in the planning. Let them research on the internet, look at youtube videos. See if there is something special each would like to see or do.

Oly,

Using public transportation (especially high speed trains) will the be quickest and most efficient method, and likely the most pleasant. While you could use a rental car, those also come with some potentially expensive "caveats", so you'll need to do some homework on that.

Train from Zurich Airport to Luzern is 1hr 05min.
Train from Luzern to Lauterbrunnen is 2hr 20min.
Train from Lauterbrunnen to Dijon is 3hr 55min.
Train from Dijon to Paris is 1hr 35min.

I would definitely include Lucerne in your Switzerland plans if you are only planning on spending a few days there. It is a beautiful city. I do question the time allotted for London and Paris. These are large cities with so much to see and do. I don't think 2 days will do them justice. I would skip Burgundy and add more time to Paris. I also agree with skipping Garda in favor of more time in Switzerland or at least taking a day from Garda and adding an extra day in London.

I know it isn't a poll and that it is your vacation.

I'd for sure let the kids plan some of it - that way they will have buy in.

I'd love to push a big vote for Venice. It is indescribable. The flights from London are easy, Easyjet can be very cheap if you get the fares early (they have a sale on at the moment).

I'd suggest dropping all of Burgundy and if you need to cover some days in France (I bet you can spread and not need) I suggest Alsace. Or Schwarzwald.

Appreciate all the responses. We're sort of back to square one. We'll add time to Paris for sure and because of now hoping to get to Wimbeldon which timing wise only happens is at the end of the trip, we'll have more time in London, albeit in two parts. That middle remains a moving target. My sons are very into cars and would like things like Monaco, the auto museum in Turin, etc. The arc lately that feels most efficient and varied is London, Paris, then head south to Riviera area then into Italy for maybe a Turin car museum stop, with close-out at Maggiore or Como. Fly back to London from Milan. You all know it's hard to choose and it's been 15 years since I've been to Europe.The internet will kill you with choices. The yin and the yang of it.... thanks again.

Oly,

As your sons are "very into cars", I'd definitely include the Museum of Transport in Lucerne. There's not much to see in Monaco with cars, other than the track. However there is an excellent Oceanographic Museum in Monaco.