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Itinerary help for first timers please

My husband & I are planning a trip to Italy , Germany & Holland for our 10th anniversary between May 26 & June 10. We were going to do a multi country tour, but don’t want to spend our trip on a bus, so I’m doing my best to plan this myself & could really use some help with our itinerary. We have 2 days “left over”, & I’m not sure whether to slow our pace & spend more time in one place, or add another destination. We are not really interested in spending time in art galleries & museums, but are more into nature, seeing & doing unique things, being active & are keen to visit sites related to WW2.

We will be flying from Toronto & I’m thinking we should start in Rome ( vs Amsterdam) to take advantage of the warmer weather in the south. It’s a 9 hour flight, so that eats up day 1.

We would spend 3 days in Rome to see: Vatican City & museum, St. Peter's Basilica & the Sistine chapel (day 2); the colosseum, forum, panntheon, & Trevi fountain (day 3) & a day trip to Tivoli to see Hadrian's Villa (day 4).

We would then fly out of Rome to Munich on day 5, which I understand takes 2 hours.

Other than seeing Neuschwanstein Castle & Dachau, I’m not sure what else we’d see there, but if we were going to go to Salzburg or Vienna for a day or two, this would seem to be the time to do it. However, Rothenberg & the Rhine Valley are where we are really excited to go. We aren’t sure about the best way to get to Rothenberg from Munich. We could rent a car, or take the train I believe. Any suggestions?

I think we want at least 2 days in Rothenberg in order to do some shopping, go to the crime & punishment museum, do the night walk, & see Pöllat Gorge. Am I missing anything interesting in this spot?

Next, we want to go to the Rhine Valley to do a day cruise on the river & visit Bacharach & St. Goar. We were planning to spend 2 days here.

Lastly, we would head to Amsterdam, spend a day there to see the Anne Frank House, canal, & red light district, then fly home on the 9th.

In addition to my questions above, does anyone have suggestions about must see/do in any of these places, or nearby, and can you recommend specific hotels? Also, is there a specific RS guidebook you’d recommend?

Thank you very much for your input.

Posted by
1103 posts

I think you may be trying to cover too much territory on a trip of this length. Sometimes people look at a map of Europe and see how small it is compared to the United States. However, travelling from country to country in Europe usually involves changes in language, currency and culture. Your itinerary involves a great deal of logistical planning and a lot of time in transit from place to place,

I would focus on either Italy or Germany/Austria/Switzerland.

Posted by
8404 posts

I have been to all the places that you identified for your itinerary.

1) Consider eliminating Amsterdam. You have two weeks for Italy and Germany. Now sure why you only want to visit Rome in Italy. There are so much more. Florence and Venice would be great choices. Also, only three days in Rome is not enough.

2) Your travel in Germany covers a wide area. Neuschwanstein is near Fussen close to the Austrian Border and Rothenberg is in the middle of Southern Germany. Rothenberg is easily done in one day. Many take tours of the Romantic Road and see it in one day. Consider doing the Romantic Road, there is lots more on it than Rothenberg. Also, you want to go on to the Rhine which is a considerable distance from Munich and Rothenberg. How do you plan to make your want from Munich to Rothenberg, then on to the Rhine? Munich will take three days to see the city and a side trip to Dachau. Another day for Neuschwanstein. Are you going to Linderhof Castle as well or what? Are you going to Salzburg and Berchtesdaden? Rothenberg is not on a main train line. When I took the train there, I had to transfer to a bus and it is a bit time consuming. A rental car might be a good idea to get from Munich to Rothenberg then to the Rhine.

3) After Italy and Germany, you have probably used most of your two weeks. I suggest going back to Amsterdam on another trip.

Posted by
28358 posts

Have you already bought your airline tickets?

I'm not sure you have a clear grasp of the time it takes to move from place to place. Tours can move faster than independent travelers because they have dedicated transportation and professional guides.

First, if you're flying from Canada to Rome, that is usually an overnight flight. You'll probably arrive in Rome in the morning (I think you're calling that Day 2) after having slept hardly at all. You'll also be jetlagged. And it may well be lunchtime by the time you drop off your luggage at the hotel and get oriented. That is definitely not the day to tackle the mob-scene at the Vatican Museums. You probably won't know what you're seeing, and you almost certainly won't remember having seen it. The arrival day is a day to walk around outside, trying to stay awake and trying to get your body adjusted to your new time zone. So if you start in Rome, maybe you see the Pantheon (free as of now), the Trevi Fountain, Piazza Navona, a church or two--whatever you come across in your wandering. To avoid confusion: The Sistine Chapel is part of the Vatican Museums.

Second, going from Rome to Munich does not take 2 hours; it takes a large chunk of the day. You will have to get up, pack, have breakfast, check out of your hotel, get yourself to the airport (padding the travel time for safety), be there way ahead of time for the usual security procedures (at least 2 hours before departure, but check the airline's website), make the flight, deplane, retrieve your baggage, get to your new hotel and go through check-in procedures. All told, that will be more like 6 hours. Any day on which you change locations is one that's pretty much lost for sightseeing purposes. At least you won't be jetlagged.

I don't believe you have any extra days at all; in fact, when you get a guidebook, I think you're going to find that you are trying to cover too much ground. Are you spending 13 nights actually on the ground in Europe? That means just 12 real sightseeing days, and it's hard to have a relaxing vacation in Rome, Munich/Bavaria, the Rhine area and Amsterdam in that amount of time. If it were my trip, I'd just tackle Italy, or I'd limit the trip to the Munich to Amsterdam stretch. What you are proposing to do consigns you to spend a really significant portion of your trip traveling from place to place rather than actually sightseeing. With that itinerary, I'd constantly be thinking about the next time I was going to have to get on a plane, a train or a bus.

I urge you to go to your local library today to look for guidebooks. I think Rick's Best of Europe covers all of the areas you mention visiting, he includes all the most popular attractions, and he is very good about explaining how to get to them. If your library doesn't have what you need, it's off to a bookstore (or Amazon.com).

Posted by
7128 posts

"...nature, seeing & doing unique things, being active & are keen to visit sites related to WW2."

Neuschwanstein and Rothenburg come with an extra-heavy dose of tourist-overload. Rothenburg's 11,000 residents get overwhelmed on a daily basis - it has 2.5 million annual visitors!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4655367309_423f3e924b_b.jpg

https://www.frankenfernsehen.tv/storage/thumbs/1200x630c/r:1475156718/95171.jpg

http://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/071210/071210_rothenburg_hmed_1p.grid-6x2.jpg

Neuschwanstein (built just prior to the dawn of the 20th century, a palatial residence with a fake castle facade) is similarly inundated:
http://www.dw.com/en/is-neuschwanstein-all-its-cracked-up-to-be/a-17887035

If you picture yourselves doing unique things in the great outdoors and discovering old-world towns on your own - minus the intense tourist horde - you should rethink your plans and substitute these destinations with others in Bavaria. There are many great choices, places you can enjoy with smaller crowds. Here are a few idea starters below...

Here's a really nice piece on the Altmühl River Valley north of Munich. Pappenheim is adorable:
http://www.dw.com/en/cycling-through-the-altm%C3%BChl-valley-in-autumn/a-18799890

The southern Romantic Road from Landsberg - Augsburg - Donauwörth - Harburg - Nördlingen isn't too overwhelmed - nice places!

Further south, look into Mittenwald: http://hastingshouse.typepad.com/hastings_house_us/travel_in_europe/

Not far from Rothenburg: Bad Windsheim - Iphofen - Marktbreit

The Middle Rhine Valley is a great place to visit as well - not without tourists but with many sightseeing options. Don't forget to visit the medieval castles there, escpecially Marksburg in Braubach.

http://www.marksburg.de/en/circuit/
Braubach: https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4143/4751924826_36d7071291_b.jpg

Every place I've mentioned above is easily accessible by train, if that's how you wish to travel.

Also, it's not necessary to set foot in Munich if you don't wish to. You can take a train from the airport (or anywhere else) to Dachau Bahnhof and stay in Dachau for your visit there, if you wish.

Posted by
370 posts

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. You have given me a lot to think about. I had typed out a reply, but it has disappeared, so I will add more to this reply later.

Never having been to Europe before (and not knowing when we will get a chance to again), our goal is to get a taste for as much of it as is possible on this trip, but I hear you about cramming too much in. Personally, my preference would be to spend the entire time in Holland/Germany/Austria, but my husband really wants to go to Italy, hence including Rome. Neither of us are big, bustling city people, so I think that 3 days to see the top sights will be enough for us.

I know it’s a lot of time spent in transit, but it’s the alternative to doing the Continental Introduction tour with Globus, which covers 12 places in 14 days! Aside from flying from Rome to Munich to minimize that, we were thinking that it wouldn’t be so bad if we rented a car and saw Germany that way.

Re: flights, I was planning to fly into Rome during the day on May 26, and start sightseeing the next day. The rationale for including Amsterdam, aside from wanting to visit it, is that we’d be flying home from there anyway.

Geovagriffith, thanks for the suggestion of the Romantic Road. I will do some more reading about it (I picked up Europe Through the Backdoor this morning).

Much appreciated.

Posted by
28358 posts

Are you sure there are daytime flights from Canada to Rome?

Keep in mind that by moving rapidly through a lot of places, you see less, not more, because of all the dead time in transit. That's not as much of an issue in places with great scenic beauty where the journey itself is totally worthwhile (the Alps, along the Rhine), but you still have all that time spent packing and unpacking, getting to and from train stations/airports, and so on.

Posted by
3113 posts

How much time in Munich? Here is what you can do: Go to the Munich Residenz, well worth the tour (I did read you don't do museums), go to the Chinesichum Turm Beer Garden, take the WWII in Munich tour (see where the Beer Hall Putsch took place), visit Dachau, do 1 day at Neuschwanstein, go to other palaces and gardens. We particularly like the Alte Pinotek (old picture museum), as it has wonderful and clear audio tour headsets. From there, a train can take you to Rothenberg am der Tauber. From there, going to Frankfurt and basing things there for the Rhine would work well. The Rhine sections of St Goar, etc are close to Frankfurt.

Honestly, spending an extra day in some German location would be more fun than Amsterdam. Save Amsterdam for your 15th. If you could fly out of Frankfurt, that's what I would do.

Posted by
1103 posts

Note that Rick Steves has some tours that are on sale during the May to June period.

Posted by
11990 posts

Re: flights, I was planning to fly into Rome during the day on May 26

All the flights I can find from YYC to FCO are overnighters, with an AM arrival in Rome, in case that has any bearing on your plans

Posted by
370 posts

HI everyone,

I appreciate all your input, and was really hoping to book a consult with an RS Travel consultant (I work full time and am in school, which doesn't leave much room for trip planning), but they aren't available until the end of the month. I picked up the guide book for Germany, am going to reevaluate my plan and will be back with another proposed itinerary ASAP.

Thanks again :)

Posted by
672 posts

Alternately, you could plan to fly from Rome to Salzburg, which is close to the German border. You could spend the first day in Salzburg strolling around the small and compact Old Town and taking the funicular up to the Hohensalzburg Fortress. Since you expressed an interest in WW2 sites, you could spend a second day visiting Berchtesgaden (Eagle's Nest and Dokumentation Center at Obersalzburg; easily to get there on your own by bus, but definitely take the Eagle's Nest Tours as described in the RS Germany guide - it is excellent; we took it in May 2015). You could then take the train from Salzburg to Munich, and from Munich go on to Nuremberg, where you can visit the Palace of Justice where the Nazi war crimes trials were held, and also visit the Dokumentation Center and Rally Grounds, plus the Old Town if you have time. From Nuremberg you can train to Berlin, from where you can fly back to the States. Berlin is an amazing city. Definitely recommend a tour of the Reichstag (must sign up on-line in advance), the Topography of Terror, Wall Museum, Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, Jewish Museum, Museum Island, etc.
So, possibly:
Day 1 - fly to Europe
Day 2 - arrive in Rome
Days 3-4 - Rome
Day 5 - fly from Rome to Salzburg in the morning; stroll around the Old Town and visit the Fortress in the afternoon
Day 6 - Day trip to Berchtesgaden and Obersalzburg
Day 7 - Train from Salzburg to Munich
Days 8-10- Munich, Dachau, Neuschwanstein, etc.
Day 11 - Train from Munich to Nuremberg in morning
Day 12 - Train from Nuremberg to Berlin in the afternoon; arrive in the evening
Days 13-14 - Berlin

Posted by
370 posts

Thank you all very much for your input. I took your advice and bought RS "Europe Through the Backdoor" and "Germany" and have come up with a new, albeit still ambitious itinerary that I hope will work. I have decided to drop Amsterdam, spend more time in and around Munich, and added an extra day in Rome at the start to recover from jet lag. Please tell me what you think:

May 25: fly Toronto to Rome
May 26: spend the afternoon wandering and recover from jet lag
May 27: Colosseum, Forum, Pantheon
May 28: Vatican (museum/chapel, basillica)
May 29: Tivoli: Hadrian's Villa and Ville d'Este
May 30: fly from Rome to Munich. Spend the afternoon exploring the Marienpletz, Viktualienmarket, and Hofbrauhous
May 31: Day trip to Dachau, then English Garden
June 1: Drive to Fussen, bike or boat at Forggensee Lake, take the Tegelberg Gondola, Tegelberg luge
June 2: Fussen: Neuschwanstein castle, Zigspitze, treetop walkway
June 3: Drive to Berchtesgaden: See the salt mines, konigssee lake, hike at almbach gorge
June 4: Berchtesgaden: see Obersalzburg documentation centre and bunker and the Eagle’s Nest
June 5: Drive to Rothernberg: Shopping, German Christmas museum, Tradesman’s house, Night Watchman tour
June 6: Rothernberg: Crime and punishment museum, then drive to Bacharach
June 7: Rhine Valley: Bacharach, St Goar, bike rental in Mosel Valley
June 8: river cruise
June 9: fly home from Frankfurt

Posted by
7128 posts

As I review your itinerary, these comments of yours come back to me...

"...my preference would be to spend the entire time in Holland/Germany/Austria, but my husband really wants to go to Italy..."

It looks like you have 4 full days in Rome, which is not "Italy" but is pretty good for Rome and sounds doable. Then around 10 days in Germany. So yes, you should be more mobile in Germany with more days there, but probably not as mobile as it now stands. Germany feels a bit too frenetic. 5 stays in 10 nights in Munich, Füssen, Berchtesgaden, Rothenburg AND Bacharach (andmaybe FRA airport too?) - all that adds to the moving/check-in/check out hassles and should probably be pared down to 3-4 stays IMO. After Füssen, you plan to drive to B'gaden for... more Alps, more lakes, more hiking, more cute mountain stuff - sounds like a lot of duplication - and a couple of not-so-critical Nazi sites. So I'd suggest choosing either the Füssen area OR Berchtesgaden and dedicating 3-4 nights in one place. I'd probably choose the Füssen/Garmisch part of the Alps - visit Mittenwald and/or Oberammergau instead of B'gaden. The Zugspitze (nr. Garmisch, not Füssen) isn't far from 3 or 4 exciting river gorges - do one of those instead of Almbach? You may actually want to do some "Nazi" stuff in Munich, where there's a brand new Documentation Center, and maybe take 3rd Reich walking tour like this one while you're in town.

"However, Rothenberg & the Rhine Valley are where we are really excited to go. "

If that's the case, it wouldn't hurt to squeeze in another day or half day on the Rhine. I don't see any castle tours on your list; unlike the palace of Neuschwanstein, Marksburg Castle (in Braubach on the Rhine) is a genuine medieval castle that's been intact for centuries. There are lots of wineries in this area - and if you like the outdoors, the hiking and scenery are terrific.

"...our goal is to get a taste for as much of it as is possible on this trip..."
"...more into nature, seeing & doing unique things, being active & are keen to visit sites related to WW2."

Rick's preferences in Bavaria, which seem to inform your plans, will mostly give you a taste of touristy places that guarantee proximity to lots of tourists. Except for the treetop walk (Where is that??) it's pretty much the standard tour bus stuff, no unique "back doors." They tend to be nice places of course, but I think you'd get a better take on the country by trying one or two places he does NOT mention or emphasize. I may have mentioned a couple in my previous post.

Posted by
2484 posts

I think we want at least 2 days in Rothenberg in order to do some shopping, go to the crime & punishment museum, do the night walk, & see Pöllat Gorge.

Please note that you are mixing up destinations. The Pöllat Gorge is near Neschwanstein not near Rothenburg.

Posted by
7175 posts

May
26. Arrive Rome (3)
27. Rome
28. Rome
29. Train to Florence (3)
30. Florence
31. Day to Siena
June
1. Train to Venice (2)
2. Venice
3. Train to Munich (4)
4. Munich
5. Day to Neuschwanstein
6. Day to Salzburg
7. Fly to Amsterdam (3)
8. Amsterdam
9. Amsterdam
10. Fly home

Posted by
370 posts

Thanks again for all the excellent insights. With your input, I think we are going to skip the trip to Berchtesgaden and spend that time in Salztburg instead.