Itinerary Help - Family of 5

Why are you going back to Italy to fly home from Milan?

You are traveling way, way too much. Your kids will hate you after this trip. You have at least 15 different cities on a 30 day trip. You have overnight trains that may make everyone miserable. There are far too many 1 night stops. Look at the Rome stop. Not even a full day there, so why even bother going to Rome? For Munich you don't even have a full day there either. I am not trying to be harsh, but this is a brutal trip and no one is going to have much fun as you are spending all of your time traveling.

Please get out a map and look at how much travel you are trying to fit in going from place, to place, to place. Add up the travel times for each of these change of locations. See if it makes sense.

Unless you sign up for a guided bus or minivan tour of Normandy sights, having a car will be great for going where you want, when you want. In 2008, we rented in Lille and drove to Normandy, eventually turning the car in Caen before taking a train to Paris. Your pick-up and drop-off locations would depend on how much driving you wanted to do, and if there was any urban driving you wanted to avoid. Some rental companies don't have offices in certain towns, though, so that could also be a factor.

We stayed in Bayeux, a good base from which to visit Normandy. We were at a convent, listed in the Lonely Planet guidebook, that had converted one building into rooms for tourists. No TV or other frills, and there were two twin beds to a room, but breakfast was great, with various breads and rolls, and bowls (not cups) of hot chocolate or coffee with milk. Like you, we've had good luck with apartments (including having a kitchen and sometimes a washing machine), but they tend to rent for a week at a time.

Just one night in Rome? Too bad, but you obviously have a lot of other great places to see.

seahunt,

im not as well traveled as some of the others on here, but just a quick look at your initial plan, to me is way too much "in transit" time.

If you all like to spend a lot of time "on the go" and understand that, then your plan is good to go.

Of the places i have been where you want to go-

London and Paris, you can easily spend 4 full days in each city and not see everything. I did and that did not include any side trips or day trips outside of the cities.

Normandy, i spent 1 full day with a private tour and again, didnt see all that was there. I also spent a good part of a day at Mont Saint Michel. I spent another day in Caen and the rest was for Bayeux.

in Munich i spent 3 full days and that included 1 full day for Dachau. Again, i left some stuff out since i didnt have enough time.

Overnight train travel. If you havent done it, you may want to do some homework on how good/bad it could be for you and your family. I did my first overnight trip from Budapest to Krakow. I did it to see how it was and how well or not i would get any sleep. I ended up without any sleep. Thats not to say your train trips would be worse or the same or better, but do some homework to see how people fared.

good luck and happy trails.

I think you should really take a close look at the travel times and how much time you would likely spend in each place for those 1 night stays. When you spend one night you will only really a have a few hours to tour any given place. it really takes a lot more time than you realize to get out of one hotel, walk to the train, be there early to figure out where you need to go and then get to the next place, find the hotel, get checked in a settled, before you can even get out to see anything. And, trying to do that with three kids seems really difficult to me, plus doing it day after day after day. I'd also cut the overnight trains so you get some sleep.

If it were me, I'd rework it. I'd spend at 4 nights in places like London, Paris, Rome and then at least 3 nights in all other areas, other than the night before your flight home. I'd cut Cinque Terre to 3 nights, cut Salzburg/Hallstaat to 3, cut Murren to 3 and add those nights to other places. You could cut Murren and fly home from Munich after Salzburg (even though I love the BO!). I'm not sure why you are going all the way to Rome for one night, then back up to Munich (other than that you want to see Rome- but there isn't time)

I know those are hard choices, believe me, I have to cut with every trip, but I really think that your trip will NOT be a trip of a lifetime....just too much travel! I'm sorry to sound cruel, but you really want to make it a trip of a lifetime, right?

Seriously, cut it down for your family to make real memories that they can remember and cherish. I know you have longer stays like in Cinque Terre, Salzburg and Murren, but I think those areas you could cut down, as great as they are (I've been to all of them) I don't think you need that much time and could put those days on Paris, London and Rome. I like your balance of big cities/smaller areas- that is good, just adjust the amount of days...IMHO!

Hello seahunt. I see 13 destinations in your tentative itinerary (not including Florence and Pisa). I recommend : delete Venice from this itinerary. And, do not do overnight train trips. From Paris, I recommend :
*trains from Paris to Murren (in Switzerland).
* trains from Murren to Cinque Terre (via Milan).
* train from Cinque Terre to Rome, via La Spezia, the coastal route. Forget about Pisa. Be at Rome 3 nights (minimum).
* airline flight from Rome to Munich. Visit Salzburg, Halstadt, Neuschwanstein.
*airline flight from Munich to your home.
If travelers will be at Europe many days, Rick Steves recommends planning to have a day that has no plans or travel, every seven days. That is : each week have one day for which you have no scheduled activities. That day could be a day for resting, or washing and drying clothes, visiting a pharmacy (apothecary), buying food at an outdoor market, going to a place that you were not able to go to the previous day, ...

I actually think it's an awesome itinerary! I would personally take a night from Levanto and add it to Venice. I would also recommend doing Ludwig's castles as a day trip from Munich to cut down on 1 nighters. I would skip Berchtesgaden since you are going to the swiss alps. I agree with Jo - why not fly home from Zurich?

seahunt,

Your proposed Itinerary is very disjointed and inefficient in some parts and will involve backtracking (which wastes both time and money) and not realistic in some cases. There are too many one-night stops (IM0) and when planning it's important to allow adequate time for transportation between locations. One suggestion - don't buy air tickets until you've got an Itinerary somewhat finalized. What month "this summer" are you planning on travelling? Where are you flying from, and have you included your two flight days in your planning?

If you haven't been to Europe before, I'd highly recommend reading Europe Through The Back Door prior to your trip. It provides a lot of good information on "how" to travel in Europe. After that use the country or city-specific guidebooks to plan transportation, hotels, sightseeing, etc.

A few thoughts and suggestions (with destinations listed in the order I'd use).....

• London - keep in mind you'll be jet lagged, so probably won't be up to touring speed for a few days.
• EuroStar to Paris - Be sure to buy your tickets well in advance for the best prices. Tickets are often non-refundable and non-changeable, so choose carefully. Check the Man In Seat 61 website for details on buying tickets.
• Paris - especially in summer, you might consider the Paris Museum Passes, since those will minimize queues. Trips up the Eiffel Tower can be booked online.
• Normandy - I'm not sure two nights will be enough for both the beaches and MSM since you'll have to allow for travel times. How were you planning to see "the beaches"? The D-Day sites cover an enormous area, so you'll either have to rent a car or use one of the excellent local tour companies. Bayeux makes a good home base, and also has a good Museum. Don't forget to see the famous Tapestry while there.
• Mürren - it would be easier to return to Paris for one night and then travel to Switzerland, although that trip can be done from Bayeux in one long day. The trip from Paris to Interlaken Ost is 5 - 6 hours, depending on which train is used. Are you clear on the route from Interlaken to Mürren?
• Travel to C.T. - The shortest trips between Interlaken and Levanto will be before 08:00, so you'd have to get a VERY early start from Mürren. A departure at 08:00 from Interlaken will arrive in Levanto at 14:57 (3 changes).
• Cinque Terre - Levanto is not "officially" part of the C.T., but it's very close (4 minutes by train from Monterosso). If you're planning on doing a lot of touring while there, Levanto may not be the best choice as it's a bit of walk to the station.
• Rome - are you only planning to spend one night in Rome after travelling there from the C.T., stopping in Pisa on the way and then taking a night train to Munich?
• Venice - I'd suggest a high speed train (300 kmH) from Rome to Venice (3H:35M), but spend at least two nights in Venice.
• Travel to Munich - one of the easiest trips is a departure from Venezia Mestre at 07:50, arriving Munich at 14:21 (time 6H:31M, one change at Verona P.N.). That route travels through the scenic Brenner Pass and it's a very pleasant trip.
• Munich - I'd suggest using Munich as a "base" for visiting both Dachau and the castles in Füssen. You can either arrange those day trips on your own, or use a firm such as Radius Tours. I'd also suggest adding at least one night for Munich, as there's a lot to see there. The Deutsches Museum is fantastic (16 kM of exhibits).
• Salzburg - this would also make a good base for visiting Hallstatt and Berchtesgaden (unless you want to spend a couple of nights in Hallstatt).
• Flight home - rather than return to Milan, you might consider using a flight from Munich.

There are lots of possibilities, and I'd have to spend some time working out the fine details but this provides one suggested Itinerary.

Here's why nearly everyone's saying too many places. Yes, it's only a 2.5 hour train ride from London to Paris, but it will take you a lot longer. First you have to get everyone ready, and packed. Then allow at least 1/2 hour to get to the train station. It could be more depending on the time of day and where you're staying. If you aren't going first thing in the morning, you'll have to store your bags and return to the hotel later to pick them up. You should be at the train station an hour before departure to go through security and passport control. When you get to Paris, allow at least 1/2 hour to get to your hotel and check in (again, it could take longer, if there's a long line for taxis at the station or if you hit city traffic). If you are very efficient and lucky, it will only take you about 5 hours door-to-door. You will repeat this every time you change locations - though you won't have to be at the train station an hour ahead, you'll need enough time to allow for delays in getting there and then time to buy tickets (do not underestimate the amount of time you can wait in line for that) and find your train. In addition, with every new place, you will need time to get oriented - figuring out how to get around, where the bus or tram stops, how to buy tickets for them, etc.

Are you going to want to take time to sit in restaurants for lunch? Or is your family ok with grabbing a snack or some street food? Will you need to shop for toiletries - while it can be fun, it can be frustrating trying to figure out what's what in unfamiliar packaging with labels in a foreign language. What are you going to do about laundry? Send it out? Go to a laundromat? (you really need to stay with your clothes if you do self-service). These all take away from sightseeing time.

Looking at your itinerary, I'd start by eliminating Italy. The only place you have time to see and enjoy is the Cinque Terre, and I'm not so sure your boys are going to enjoy it that much. Add some time to London - you will need a day or two (at least) to get over the long-haul flight and the jetlag. Paris needs more than 2 full days too.

If you want to rent a car, be sure to get one that's big enough for everyone to ride in comfort and store all your luggage out of sight (if you're going to have luggage in the car while it's parked).

Look at Rome2Rio.com for routing and approximate costs, or plot it out on a map of Europe and look up costs for traveling. If you go from Paris to Germany and then to Italy you will save time and money. If you are only going to Milan to fly out, depart from Rome instead. This gives you an additional night or two in Rome. Cut back on time in Cinque Terre and add that to Rome as well. The boys might like "gladiator school" or a pizza-making class.

Unless your family moves with military precision or if you haven't traveled in Europe with kids before, you may not be aware of how much time it takes to move from place to place. You will only move as fast as your slowest group member. Toys and clothes and electronics will go missing and will need to be found. Sleepyheads will need to be motivated. Crankiness is a time-suck.

You can make this a great trip but rethink your itinerary.

Greetings, a month with your family will be terrific and I hope the comments from the RS Forum will help you fine tune your travels. '97 was our first trip to Europe with two boys - 13 & 15); hopefully, his won't be your last trip together but even if it should be "THE TRIP", the itinerary that you roughed out would be grueling - you'll be transporting instead of touring. My principles for ETBD travels: 1. less is more (pick fewer destinations and spend more time enjoying them) 2. Don't miss the small cities, towns and villages 3. renting a car can be great way to see more, save time and, sometimes, save money 4. Don't rush - linger (sitting in cafes, shopping in open are markets, watching/playing bocce will be memorable. Starting with London & Paris (via the Chunnel) is great start - with jet lag you may want to add a day to London; in each city there's so much to see. On trip first, we took a rental car up to St. Micheal, Normandy and North to BeneLux and Amsterdam. With your interest in Italy, you may want to consider driving South through the Loire and the Provence for castles and villages galore; then, it's an easy drive to Northern Italy where you can visit Cinque Terra, Tuscanny, the Dolomites (hike in the Alps for a day), Venice, Umbria and Rome. Save Germany and Austria for a return visit. The villages and small towns in France and Italy are unique certainly not something we see in the US. If you'd like more info (our kids traveled with us for the next 10 years!) send me a PM. Ciao.

A month is awesome! But be realistic. A family of five is just not going to be nimble. You are off by a day or two at almost every destination.

Consider that 3 nights basically equals 2 days, plus a dinner and breakfast. 2 nights is one day. 1 night, especially after a night train--forget it!

On that basis I'd suggest 4 or 5 nights for London and Paris. 3 nights minimum for the ambitious Norman itinerary you've set out for yourself. Et cetera.

You've made a good start, identifying a wish list. Now comes the hard part: brutal honesty about priorities and what is realistic.

So what are your real priorities? What are you willing to give up? Remember, it's not about seeing the most stuff, it's about having the best trip you can.

Keep at it and you will!

Thanks to everyone so far for their suggestions and honest opinions. I will try to address a lot of the concerns so far by giving a little background on me.

I have been to Europe once when I was a teenager with my high school French teacher. It was with a tour group and we did London, Normandy, Paris, Nice, Monaco, and Florence.

I have been researching this trip for a year and a half now. I have watched every RS episode for all of the locations we are interested in. I have read Europe Through the Back Door and own an array of RS books including Best of Europe, Normandy, Bavaria, Cinque Terre, Italy, and Rome. This trip has been an obsession for me!

I first want to address the concern that my kids will hate me after this trip. I am pretty sure otherwise. If you are not a parent of 3 very active boys (and I don't mean active as in behavior but involved in lots of extra-curriculars), you may not understand that our normal day is always crazy rushing from one thing to another. We very rarely sleep in on a weekend due to their sports events, etc. so we are quite primed for a packed itinerary!

I always am planning a trip and they are always challenging itineraries to some. Last year we did 2.5 weeks in California doing San Francisco, Monterey, Big Sur/PCH, Solvang, Disneyland, Sequoia and Kings Canyon NPs, and Yosemite NP. You would probably laugh at that itinerary as well but we had a blast. We go to Disney World yearly and are the people that get up at 6am to beat the crowds - we stay from open to close (no nap breaks). I understand that not everyone can handle our itineraries but we do pretty well and all 3 of my boys are still talking to me. I constantly have people asking me for my trip itineraries so I must be doing something right.

I failed to mention that we are planning on starting the trip in mid-July. I really wanted to start in June but it is not working out with team camps for my oldest's high school basketball team. We would be flying out of Raleigh-Durham, NC airport. I have been following flights for a while and Milan has been the cheapest to get there and the open jaw starting in London was very little more. Cost is a huge factor for us with 5 tickets! A few of you asked about flying out of Milan after Murren but if you look at a map, Milan is not much further than Zurich or Geneva from the OB and the cost savings is huge!

Some suggested we cut out Murren but with my oldest being 15 then, he can still travel for free with the Swiss Family Pass. If we wait until another time (if there IS another time), he will be considered an adult so going places like Jungfrau, Schilthorn, etc. would be cost prohibitive for us.

We do not plan to eat at a lot of expensive sit-down restaurants. We will try doing some picnics and eating street food like the outdoor biergartens.

Laundry is a concern but that has been a factor in some of the hotels we have picked. A lot of them have washers on-site.

Many of you have varying opinions on Rome and Venice and I've seen that in all that I have read. I guess we're all going to have some varying opinions - I have been to neither. We are Catholic so going to the Rome/Vatican is a bit of a pilgrimage for us. I had a better itinerary before but I had to move some things to make sure that we will be in Rome on a Wednesday to see the Pope. He is gone on vacation in August so I had to get there before that.

My biggest concern in planning has been having that odd number of 5 people. It is a pain in hotels and transportation just like it is here in the US. I am still glad I had that 3rd child - he is a keeper!

I will post a better itinerary soon to show how I have incorporated travel time, etc. into my plan. I may still want to shift some days around. Many mentioned cutting some days in the CT but I had planned on some downtime as a "vacation from our vacation" which many would agree that we need!!!

Thanks for all of the help and tips so far and keep them coming...

I like Ron's general rearranging of the route, to visit Switzerland on the way south, if possible, instead of at the end. See also how a couple of Rick's tours are arranged to cover similar destinations:

http://www.ricksteves.com/tours/europe/europe-14-days

http://www.ricksteves.com/tours/europe/my-way-europe

Overnight trains are the end of the world, but note that flying those same legs can be quite affordable if you book ahead; see www.skyscanner.com. Another night in a Venice or Rome hotel is not necessarily cheap, but helps reduce your number of one-night stays. I'll reiterate that there's no need to backtrack to Milan for your flight home; fly home from the airport closest to the last visit point, whether Munich, Zurich, or Rome.

Thanks, Laura. Once again, the reason that I am flying out of Milan is that it is much cheaper and not much farther than Zurich. It will save us at least $1000 for very little inconvenience.

OK - I adjusted a few things and am giving more details here. Let me know how this looks:

1. RDU flight to LON
2. Arrive London in morning – afternoon sightseeing (sleep London)
3. London (sleep London)
4. London (sleep London)
5. Morning Eurostar to Paris – afternoon sightseeing (sleep Paris)
6. Paris (sleep Paris)
7. Paris (sleep Paris)
8. Versailles – rent car from there after sightseeing then drive to Normandy (sleep Normandy)
9. Normandy beaches (sleep Normandy)
10. More Normandy and drive to Mont St. Michel (sleep by Mont St. Michel)
11. Mont St. Michel and drive back to Paris – return car – night train to Venice – leaving Gare de Lyon around 8pm
12. Arrive Venice Santa Lucia at 9:35am – see Venice (sleep Venice)
13. Venice by train to Cinque Terre (possible stop in Florence) (sleep Levanto)
14. Cinque Terre (sleep Levanto)
15. Cinque Terre (sleep Levanto)
16. Train Levanto -> Pisa (see Leaning Tower) -> Rome (sleep Rome)
17. Rome (sleep Rome)
18. Vatican/Rome – night train to Munich
19. Arrive Munich – see Munich (sleep Munich)
20. Rent a car for 6 days – drive to Dachau – drive to Fussen (sleep Fussen)
21. See castle(s) and go on luge – drive to Salzburg area – (sleep Salzburg area)
22. Sightsee Berchtesgaden (Eagles Nest) (sleep Salzburg area)
23. Sightsee Hallstaat (sleep Salzburg area)
24. Sightsee Salzburg (sleep Salzburg area)
25. Return car to Freilassing, Germany; Train from Salzburg -> Interlaken (sleep Murren)
26. Murren (sleep Murren)
27. Murren (sleep Murren)
28. Train Murren - > Milan – see Last Supper? (sleep near Milan airport)
29. Fly from Milan -> RDU

Seriously, I don't see that you've changed much of anything, after all our advice. You know your family and we do not, so if you think it will work, we're just being pessimists. You're set in doing it that way, so go for it. Wishing you a great trip!

For your Salzburg area, I recommend you stay at an apartment (ferienwohnung). I can heartily recommend www.neuwirtgut.at. You could also check Bavaria Ben's great site - www.bensbauernhof.com

Regarding accommodations, we are also a family of 5, and yes it is hard to find hotel accommodations, we usually end up with 2 rooms a double and a triple. We had better luck finding this reasonably is smaller towns, but I don't think you have many in your plan. Some hotels if you contact them will link you with an apartment for 1 night.

We have not had any trouble finding apartments for 3-4 night stays, so I would suggest that for any of your longer stops. I usually use VRBO. We also stayed at a convent in Rome that had a quint room, Suore di Santa Elisabetta. It was central and had a beautiful rooftop terrace.

Someone else can maybe comment on being able to train it from Venice to Cinque Terre in 1 day. We stopped in Lucca and my recollection is that was a long day.

Hello Seahunt,

I have personally traveled to Europe with my pre-teens through teens eight times now. YOU WILL LOVE IT! We are a family of four and it is a challenge finding rooms. My advice would be to email the RS hotels in the areas of interest that offer quad rooms to see if there is an option to "add a cot." Your boys can rotate who is the unlucky one to have the cot. I would recommend a hotel/apartment in Levanto called A Durmi. We stayed in the two rooms with kitchen apt for 3 days a few years back (booking for a week was not necessary). It was lovely. It is a short walk to the train station and only one stop up from CT. I would also recommend booking needed rental cars FAR in advance as you will likely need to get one of their biggest vehicles for 5 with luggage. Keep in mind that European cars in general are MUCH smaller than our US standards. BTW, my family finds that if one person packs in a suitcase, and the others pack in backpacker packs, this makes it easier to fit/crush our gear into needed tight spaces.
I will concur (sorry) with everyone else that you are taking on too much. I will also add that we find our favorite locales in Europe are often NOT the big cities, but the little towns (you will love Hallstadt..check out Dachstein Salzkammergut near there...great hike for active boys with cool viewing platforms and ice caves. You will also love Murren/Lauterbrunnen). We often do our own laundry in the hotel room (take RS clothesline, some plastic pants hangers, single packet detergent vs using shampoo, and quick dry clothing) although with 5 people that's also a challenge. I bet you will have such a spectacular time that you will "find" a way to do it again. Good luck and ENJOY!

Kaye
Folsom, CA.