Itinerary Help

Essentially what you're setting yourself up to do most of the time is arrive somewhere at mid-afternnon, look around, sleep, look around the next day, sleep, and leave.

That's a day and a half in each of some pretty nifty places, then a half day traveling.

In other words, you're going to spend twenty five percent of your time traveling; assuming you spend one-third of your time sleeping; that leaves about fourty percent of your time looking at stuff.

Not exactly my idea of a good trip.

Jumping back and forth to London is a really wasteful idea.
Batile Day lasts about three hours, has a long pause, and then some fireworks. I wouldn't plan my life around that -- but is neat to casually mention that you've been in Paris on Bastile Day.

Beth,

That's a VERY busy Itinerary, and I agree with Ed that it wouldn't be my idea of "happy travels". The problem with planning something that rigidly, is that if there's a "hitch" in any part of the plan (ie: a strike in Italy), it's going to throw everything after that into a bit of turmoil. I'd want something with a bit more "leeway", especially travelling in July (PEAK tourist season, usually hot and crowded).

With such a busy Itinerary, you won't have much time to "soak up the culture of wherever we are"!

As this is your first trip to Europe, I'd highly recommend pre-reading Europe Through The Back Door before you get too far in your planning. There's LOTS of information there including Itinerary planning. Pay special attention to the "Rail Skills" section.

When planning your stops, be sure to allow adequate travel times between destinations and don't try to fit too many stops in. As Rick frequently says, "assume you will return".

In reading your post, one point stood out. Why not stop in Padova for a few hours on the way to Florence (although I haven't checked on luggage storage options).That would avoid travel back to Venice, and then back towards Padova on the way to Florence. As you're on a "tight budget", minimizing rail trips will be a more efficient and less expensive travel method.

I was a bit curious about your stop at Isle sur la Sorgue? It's a bit "off the beaten track", so not usually as popular with tourists. However, I was there last summer, and it's a beautiful town.

Good luck with your planning!

Thank you both for the helpful information! That was a good idea about Padova. I actually just bought Europe Through the Back Door yesterday, but of course I haven't had time to read through it yet.

I am really interested in Provence, and have been reading a lot about it. L'isle sur la Sorgue just looked like a really lovely place, so that's why I was thinking of going there, depending on time constraints.

I think now we are going to visit London first, which means (I think) we will end up in Rome at the end of the trip. Then we will fly back to London. (We have to fly round-trip.) Does anyone have ideas on cities we should leave out, in order to spend more time in one place?

Thank you!!

I would redo the four nights in Scotland, since you say you would like to walk. Fly to Inverness, rent a car, see Culloden and Clava Cairns if you have time, then drive to Glencoe area (lst night), Skye (2 nights), drive early 4th day back to Edinburgh, leave car at airport, spend the day enjoying the castle and the Royal Mile, maybe climb Arthur's Mount near Holyrood, 5th day fly to Amsterdam.

You might also want to give yourself a little more time in Rome--maybe 4 nights, so you have time to see Pompeii.

I would cut one night from either Venice or Florence and add at least one night to Rome. (Two more nights in Rome would be better).

FYI, there is no night train service between Rome and Nice.

Outside of Paris, Nice and the surrounding area have the best art museums in France. Add one night to Nice by cutting one from Arles.

Has your reading about Provence included the Rick Steves and Lonely Planet guidebooks? The LP Provence & the Cote d'Azur is more thorough than the RS Provence & the French Riviera, but I recommend both of them.

You've picked some great destinations. I think you could string them together a little more efficiently, and I suspect that as you plan further you might decide to change or skip some of them. But I think you are on to a memorable trip.

For logistical efficiency, move generally from NW to SE. Do all your British Isles stuff together, and don't return (not THIS trip I mean). Fly to Amsterdam, then take trains to Paris and Provence.

You can take a night train from Nice to Rome and fly home from Venice. Note that the night train (in both directions) is only the portion of the trip between Rome and Genoa.

"As you plan further" means you should dig into these destinations and identify those sites and activities that you can fit together into days. This will give you a sense of what you really want to do, at which point you should revisit your itinerary.

Have fun!

Thanks for all of your help! We made a new tentative itinerary last night. We realized that the rail passes were going to cost a little more than we thought, so we cut out Amsterdam, and even though I hated to do that, it made the trip hundreds of dollars cheaper. We also cut out Venice--I hated to do that, too!--but I felt like it wasn't as important for us to see as Florence and Rome. As for Scotland, I know it sounds silly, but all of my favorite bands are from Glasgow, so that's why I wanted to go to Glasgow in particular. I just can't give that up! We also shortened the trip a little bit, because we realized we were a little over-budget.

Here is what we are thinking now:

June 9th: Arrive in London

5 nights London
6 nights York
2 nights Glasgow
2 nights Edinburgh (then either take long train ride or fly to Paris)
5 nights Paris
5 nights Arles (day trips to Marseille and Avignon)
3 nights Nice (then long train ride to Florence)
4 nights Florence
3 nights Rome (or 3 nights Florence, 4 nights Rome)

Fly back to London, maybe stay one night, fly home (we have to fly round-trip).

What do you guys think? Also, do you guys recommend booking lodging ahead of time, or finding it as we go along?

Thanks again for everything! It helps so much to talk to real people about this.

Sorry--when that posted the itinerary looked confusing. Let me try again:

June 9th: Arrive in London

5 nights London

6 nights York

2 nights Glasgow

2 nights Edinburgh (then either take long train ride or fly to Paris)

5 nights Paris

5 nights Arles (day trips to Marseille and Avingon)

3 nights Nice (then long train ride to Florence)

4 nights Florence

3 nights Rome (or 3 nights Florence, 4 nghts Rome)

Fly back to London, maybe stay one night, fly home

Just a thought- I've been to York this year and last year. I love York and Yorkshire but 6 nights seems a lot unless you are using it as a base to rent a car and drive through Yorkshire. I would recommend using 2 of those nights (1 1/2 days) in Whitby. It's a beautiful historical coastal town about 90 minutes from York. If not that add a night to London and Rome or perhaps Nice. Enjoy your trip!

Beth, I think your changes have made for a better trip.

I'd probably spend a day less in Nice, but that's a personal choice. It's hard to advise you because you've told us nothing about what you like to see and do (perhaps you don't even know yourselves).

One thing you might consider is that for many of these destinations it is possible to rent a room with a kitchen for less than the cost of a hotel. You mentioned "budget;" you save on lodging and meals, since you can eat in some of the time.

However, rentals are generally by the week, beginning on a Saturday or Sunday. So the question would be, if this idea appeals, is can you tweak your itinerary to fit that schedule?

Finally, I think you would benefit from renting a car in Provence and possibly other locations as well.

Have a wonderful time!

I like your changes.

You can fly Edinburgh-Paris on easyJet for under $100.

Rent a car for your time in Provence and drop it off in Nice.

I still think that three nights in Florence and four in Rome is better than the other way around.

I agree with you that it's wise to spend the night in your city of departure before flying home.

Beth,

Your new Itinerary looks much better, but I have a few further comments.

York - 6 nights is a bit long, however you mentioned that you're visiting a friend so I'm sure you'll have a good tour there! If you're interested, you might check out the Railway Museum. Also, the local Walking Tours are great and of course The Minster!

Paris - Especially at that time of the year, a Paris Museum Pass would be a good idea. Check their website for the details.

Arles - I'd probably drop one night. Is there a specific reason you're visiting Marseille? I'd probably use the time for another location. Were you planning to visit the Pont du Gard while in that area?

Nice - with only 3 nights, you'll be busy as there's lots to see! Were you planning a day trip to Monaco / Monte Carlo? It's an easy trip by Bus (details are described in the Guidebook). The Changing of the Guard at the Royal Palace takes place at 11:55 as I recall. Be sure to get there early so you can get a good viewpoint. The Oceanographic Museum is also very interesting.

I'd suggest 3 nights in Florence and 4 nights in Rome. There's LOTS to see in Rome, so plan your touring carefully. If possible, try to get 5 nights for Rome. The Guidebook has great information for avoiding the queues at the Colosseum and other sites.

Is there any possibility of using open-jaw flights? That would provide one more night for touring in Rome. If you absolutely have to return to London for your flight home, you could drop one night from London at the beginning?

At that time of the year, I would definitely pre-book your accommodations. Start on that SOON as a lot of places will already be booked. The Guidebooks have good suggestions for lodgings in each area. At this late date, you may have to pay a bit more than previously budgeted.

Cheers!

I spent a few hours in Marseilles once. Thought it was an interesting-looking place, a little exotic even, but was with several other people who had plans elsewhere.

It is the place for bouillabaisse.

Marseilles is not so much a tourist town as other places, and there is less written about it. If you are explorers you can break new ground. I thought the waterfront was very pretty.

I could see combining it with a trip to Aix or Cassis; on the other hand, there's plenty to see closer to the Rhone.

Arles makes a fine base.

Beth,

As you want to "see lots of art", I would definitely leave Nice on the list. As Tim mentioned, there are some great Museums there.

Regarding Venice, it's a very unique location and I think it's worth at least one visit. Walking out the front doors of Venezia Santa Lucia and seeing the Grand Canal for the first time is a very memorable experience! However, given the primary focus of this particular trip, you'll have to decide how important it is to you.

Regarding Marseille, IMHO this would be a good spot to drop. I'd use the time for day trips to more interesting locations. One that you might consider is Les Baux de Provence, which is about 20 km northeast of Arles. While I didn't see any art there, it's an interesting town with an interesting history (and some nice restaurants). There are LOTS of small shops selling a variety of items, and a REALLY NICE candy store! I'm not sure what the transportation options would be from Arles if you don't have a rental car? Other day trips are the Pont du Gard, Nimes, Aix-en-Provence, etc.

As you'll be travelling via budget airline from Rome back to London, be sure to PACK LIGHT. Using EasyJet from FCO to LGW would be a good choice, but BE SURE you book early to get the best prices!

Cheers!

Thanks again, for all of the helpful advice!!

I majored in art in college, so the main thing I want to do in Europe is see lots of art. Other than that, I am really looking forward to just wandering around the cities and sitting in cafes. Out of all of the countries, I am most interested in France, and I speak just a little French, so I would like to spend most of my time there.

I know we are spending a long time in York, but since we are not paying for lodging there, we were actually able to add a week to the trip. Also, the person we are staying with is going to drive us around and take us on day trips.

A lot of people are telling me not to miss Venice, and to skip Nice instead. Of course, I would love to see Venice one day, but it just doesn't feel like a priority. I have heard that there are lots of great art museums in Nice, so that is why I want to go there. Am I crazy for missing Venice?

We do have to fly round-trip, because we are using buddy passes and apparently you can't do open-jaw with buddy passes. That is a good idea to skip night in London at the beginning and make it up at the end.

Thank you!

I forgot to address Provence--

I thought it would be a good idea to spend several nights in Arles in order to take day trips to other towns in Provence. Is Marseille not worth it, compared to other places we could visit? I thought it looked interesting, and unlike any other place we will be going, but maybe our time would be better spent elsewhere?

Beth,

I haven't been to Venice and it certainly is near the top of my wish list.

However, I can tell you from personal experience that as an art lover you should not shortchange your time in Nice. My wife and I and our adult daughter spent five nights in Nice in 2005 and we still didn't get to every art museum on our list. The ones we saw--the Chagall and Matisee museums in Nice and the Picasso Museum in Antibes--were outstanding! We had a great time on our day trip to Antibes seeing the Picasso Museum, lounging on the sandy beach, going for a swim when we needed to cool off, and wandering through the walled old town.

Ken really said it best, "Walking out the front doors of Venezia Santa Lucia and seeing the Grand Canal for the first time is a very memorable experience! "

You don't need to spend too much time there either. Definitely reconsider Venice if for no other reason than how it will make you feel. It is a unique place. The multitude of churches are works of art in themselves.

Just wanted to suggest you check out vrbo.com for private apartment rentals. You don't always need to be staying a whole week. We are renting an apt in Berlin for 2 nights, a gite in Normandy for 2 nights, and and apt in Madrid for 3 nights. This option is great for the budget and allows you to cook for yourself.

Wow, thank you for all of the advice!!

Cindy, that apartment rental website was great. I always assumed that I would have to rent the apartment for an entire week. Also, it puts my mind at ease to book through a second party.

my 2cents. I see you're from Atlanta and it gets pretty warm in Atlanta in July, you'd agree. But Atlanta has air conditioning and let me tell you, Arles gets pretty warm in July. And A/C is pretty rare. It will be quite a shock to the system after Scotland's rain and cold, and coolish York.

If you're after art and architecture Venice is a must see. Everywhere else you find art in museums. In Venice you go into churches and schuelas (sp?) where it has hung since it was painted (same in Rome). It is incredible to see art where it was meant to be.

That's why my wife and I return year after year to Italy.

Have a wonderful trip.

Nigel, you make a good point about seeing art where it was meant to be seen. I'm thinking of dropping Nice from the list, or spending less time there, but I just can't decide. Thanks also for the heads-up about the heat in Arles. I assumed it wouldn't be such a shock to me, since I am used to hot weather, but you're right--I am accustomed to having air conditioning!