Is this itinerary too rushed?

You forgot Spain. Seriously though..what's up with all the North/South extra milage? Switzerland to Naples and back to Germany? Why not work your way South? I'd leave out Pisa and the CT (and London since it is only a day).

thanks for your reply well i'm doing a circle because i intend to buy a 2 way plane ticket (they're cheaper), so i would need to be back at paris by the end of the trip. what's in london that requires more than a day?

"what's in london that requires more than a day?" I looked at your itinerary and I was speechless. Maybe this was meant for April1? If you are serious, please do not take a train from Munich to London if you only plan to stay one day. It would be the biggest mistake you could make. You will need to cut more than half of these destinations to make your trip work. Invest in a good paper map. Go to www.bahn.de to check your train times.

......buy a 2 way plane ticket (they're cheaper),...... Don't understand that statement. Do you mean a round trip ticket is cheaper? That is not true. Open jaw tickets are often the same price, sometime cheaper, and always cheaper when you factor in the return transportation costs. ...Civitavecchia side trip .... Why ???? Absolutely nothing in Civit.... ...what's in london that requires more than a day?.... You're kidding? You really think that London is only good for a day, Over the years we have spent nearly three weeks in London and still have not covered everything. I am sorry but most of this trip does not make a lot of sense. Have you looked at a map? Take a map, puts some pins in it, and see if the travel lines make any sense to you.

Theres so many things wrong with this plan that I was going to just post, "yes" to answer your question, but realized perhaps that was not too helpful.
You have not factored in any travel time.. trains take time, leaving the hotel, go to station, catch train, go to hotel, ..that can take all day for some trips. Day seven is impossible. Why are you going to Citivechia,, there is nothing there( but cruise ships with everyone going the opposite direction to Rome!) Where in "Swiss Alps" are you going, too vague. Skip Pisa, its worth a 1/2 hour in my opinion. Basically you need to cut out a few countries. your trip is only 18 days,, I am going for 22 this summer and will only go to 3 or 4 places max.. not that everyone is the same, but you are rushing about, all you will have is a tour of train stations of europe. Rome, Paris , and London all deserve between 3-5 days at least.

Fraulein, As the others have mentioned, this is NOT the most efficient Itinerary for the time available. Some "fine tuning" is definitely advisable. To begin with, I would highly recommend using open-jaw flights. Even if the initial cost is slightly higher, they usually save money once the time and cost of returning to the starting point is calculated. As this is your first trip to Europe, I'd strongly recommend reading Europe Through The Back Door 2012, if available in your area. You may be able to download it as an E-book in Kindle or iBook format. On this particular trip, it would be prudent to skip at least Pisa, Civitavecchia, Nuremburg and London, as I REALLY don't think you'll have time. Would something like this work for you: > D1 - Depart São Paulo > D2 - Arrive Paris (light touring, jet lag recovery) > D3 - Paris > D4 - Train to Lautrerbrunnen Valley (time 5H:05M, depart at 10:23, arrive Interlaken Ost 15:28, one change - use local train to Lauterbrunnen) > D5 - Alps > D6 - Train to Cinque Terre (time 7H:33M, depart 07:29, arrive Monterosso @ 15:02, two changes, reservations compulsory - which village are you planning to stay in?) > D7 - C.T. - hiking, etc. > D8 - C.T. - Chill (this would make a good rest stop) > D9 - Train to Rome (time 3H:48M via La Spezia, depart 12:40, arrive 16:28, reservations compulsory) > D10 - Rome > D11 - Rome (day trip to Pompeii - regular train to Naples and Circumvesuviana to Pompeii - it will be a LONG day - Vesuvius is NOT going to be easy to fit in) > D12 - Train to Florence (time 1H:31M, depart mid-morning) > D13 - Florence > D14 - Train to Venice (~2H - numerous departures) continued.....

Part 2..... > D15 - Train to Munich (a night train is one option, but you'll need to ensure there are no changes in the middle of the night or you won't get much sleep - you could possibly store your luggage at your Hotel until you leave Venice - there appears to be a departure at 22:51 with no changes - you'll need to pay extra for a Couchette - reservations compulsory) > D16 - Munich > D17 - Munich (day trip to Rothenburg if desired - the trip will be a minimum of ~2H:35M each way, with perhaps two or three changes - the last train leaves Rothenburg at 22:09, arriving Munich @ 00:41 - that may allow you to attend the Night Watchman's tour). I'd suggest spending the time in Munich rather than taking a day trip to Rothenburg, as there's a lot to see, and you may be getting "fatigued" by that point. As Rick often says, "assume you will return". > D18 - Flight home from Munich I assume you're planning to use Point-Point tickets for rail travel? You'll need to do some research on "Rail Skills", as there are some problem areas you'll need to be aware of. For example, if you're travelling on a Regionale in Italy, tickets MUST be validated or you may be fined on the spot (and it won't be cheap). Good luck with your planning!

What everyone else said... In addition, if visiting the Alps, I would recommend a minimum of three nights. Weather in the mountains is volatile, and it would be a shame if the only day you budgeted for exploring was rainy and foggy.

i have a much more detailed version of this itinerary, with hours for everything and more detail, but i was forced to cut down because it didn't fit the topic. yes i did look at timetables and considered time travels. for the 2 or 3 rude arrogant travelers in this topic who seem to lack reading comprehension i'll repeat that this is my first trip to anywhere ever. if i already knew everything i wouldn't be making this topic. if you are here more to be bashful than supporting, please stop wasting your time. ken, i intend to buy one of those 15 day eurail passes. will i have to bother with validating and reservations with one of those? and do you really think 1 day is enough for paris? i was thinking of hitting the palace of versailles too... also civitavecchia is a mistake, i meant civita bagnoreggio. thanks for the help

I would re-organize your trip entirely to make it more efficient and give you more time in the places you stay. Fly into London: 3 nights minimum. Fly to Rome. Ryanair or other cheap airlines have cheap fares around 50-70 GBP. See some (NOT ALL!) of Italy for 8 days. Make some choices. Maybe travel to THREE other places. A 3-day-in-2-months pass is US$228. Or buy regular tickets if you don't travel far and regular point-to-point tickets are less (they probably are less.) Train to Munich: 2 nights. Fares can be very low at www.bahn.de - 39€ one way. Train to Rothenburg: 1 night. Get a "Bayern Ticket" - 21€
Train to Paris: 4 nights. Again, about 39€ for the cheap tickets at www.bahn.de Fly home from Paris. All that travel should cost around US$500, maybe less. A 15-day railpass is $750 and will not even get you to London.

This thread is a troll.

Fraulein, First, regarding the Railpass. It may or may not be the most cost effective option. You'll need to sit down and do some "number crunching" to figure out how much P-P tickets would cost vs. the cost of the Railpass. One VERY IMPORTANT aspect of using a Railpass, is that these DO NOT include the reservation fees that are compulsory on some trains. You'll need to pay separately for those, so be sure to include that in your cost estimates. Especially in Italy, if you're caught without a valid reservation on a train where this is compulsory, you'll be fined on the spot and it won't be cheap! You'll need to Validate the Pass prior to the first use. You may find it helpful to download the free PDF Railpass Guide from this website. Click the "Railpasses" tab at the top and then look in the lower right corner for the link. Next, regarding a morning trip to Civita di Bagnoregio. That's not practical to do with such a short time frame. You would first need to take the train to Orvieto (about 1-hour) and then the Bus to Bagnoregio (also about an hour as I recall). You'll then take a local shuttle (about 20-minutes) to the base of the bridge and walk to Civiita (about 10 minutes). If that's really important, it would be better to spend at least one night in Orvieto (IMHO). Hope this helps. Cheers!

It not rude or insulting to suggest that you don't have good handle on what you want to do. It is not my lack of reading comprehension that is the problem. For someone who has admits to having not traveled or any experience, you might be more open to listening to the suggestions from the more experienced travelers who have been there and done that.

I once took a train from Barcelona to Florence. 25 hours. I don't know what I was thinking. Long trains like that are hell. Especially for a night. Lived in London for a year, still haven't done everything

Gotta agree with the troll on the reading comprehension. How many Brazilians would refer to themselves as "Fräulein Wunder", which is the name of a crappy German pop band (but maybe the troll has them on their iPod playlist along with David Hasselhof)? Even a troll under a bridge would know what there is to see in London (they keep their money at Gringott's Bank, don't they - oh wait, that's goblins, not trolls...my bad!).

DNFTT. Calling people rude is uncalled for, they wish to help you, if you actually want help. Neither your post nor your response seem that way. Are you really serious about taking a 14 hour journey to London just to turn around and go back to Paris? Your full day in London won't start until lunch time. Who wants to spend an hour changing trains in Metz? I'm very sorry whoever you may be hiding under such a nonsequiter of a nom-de-plume but the plan as presented is impossible. Unless you either have a time turner or can disapparate there's no chance. You said "I want the trip to stay enjoyable". I don't see how it could. With respect, if you sincerely want help with this but are unwilling to vastly alter these plans I wouldn't know how to advise. Remember that it takes nearly a minimum of 4 hours to up sticks each time you move.

who said i'm not willing to change the plan? that's exactly why i created the topic, to know if i should or not. the topic title itself implies that it is a hard schedule to keep up with. so i don't need to read the stupid jokes from some smartasses here. "is this meant for april 1st?" or "this is all so wrong i should just answer yes" or suggesting i'm stupid with "have you even looked at a map?". this is what's uncalled for. if you don't think these comments are insulting, there's something really wrong with your behavior. forum nerds are the same everywhere, doesn't matter the subject. "specialists" that dominate or have experience in a certain subject and spend entire days on forums acting as if everyone should know the same as they do and trying to insult "noobs", probably to make up for their worthless lives. i'll do my research somewhere else. i thanks ken and the few others who were actually helpful. the rest can keep on making stupid comments about my user name, my nationality and the bands i like. because as a couple of you pointed out, i'm the troll here.

Fraulein, you seem very bad tempered,, most posts were trying to be helpful, including mine, , but you have no sense of humor, and apparently hate honest answers. I acknowledged that just answering your post question with a one word answer would have not been helpful , so tried to point out a few of the point of problems I could see. Hope you enjoy your trip,, but attitude is everything when one travels,, and a positive upbeat one will always allow for a better overall experience,, so good luck.

Psst; You might notice that almost all of us use our first name and our real location as our identity. This is not a place for people to adopt personalities online that they would not display in public (well....at least not for the most part, anyway). This is a place for people serious about travel to give advice and people serious about travel to receive it. It's not always advice that person receiving it wants to hear. But it is very often good advice, based on personal experience. People frequently propose itineraries that seem unwise. It is quite rare, however, for people to propose itineraries that are almost - or perhaps even literally, impossible. That suggests a certain lack of seriousness...

I've looked through the previous posts and I don't see anyone mentioning this - there is no Munich to London night train. The closest thing would be to take a night train from Munich (22:47) to Paris (9:24), then take the Eurostar to London. That would be about 14 hours on trains. The Bahn shows a slightly faster connection getting off the night train in Metz at 6:15 and taking a TGV to Paris getting there (Gare de L'est) at 8:05, in time to catch the 9:13 Eurostar from Nord to London around 10:30.

Hi, Assuming you intend to spend more time in London on the next trip, I can see why you 're setting aside the time there 2 days, ie., spending night #18 in London. Stay at a hostel near St Pancras Station, (I know of three within walking distance) or one of the numerous B&B in the Kings Cross-St Pancras area...all within walking distance. Are you proposing to take 2 night trains consecutively, back to back...almost based on the listed itinerary for day #14 and then day #16 ?? I'm not saying it can't be done...I've known travellers doing that in the 1970s. You have to reserve for both night rides, even for a compartment seat. Take the CNL direct Venedig-München, you arrive at 0630. Stay in one of the numerous small hotels/Pensionen near the Munich central station, or in one of the hostels...all within a few minutes. (I've done this recently). Spend the day visiting Munich, good walking city, visit the museums and Marienplatz, skip Rothenburg (I'm not keen on Rothenburg anyway). This way you have basically 2 full days in Munich before taking the night train Munich-London. You have to book an early ticket to get its lowest price for the Euro-Star, if you want to go to London that desperately this time, depending on your reasons. I could see myself doing this diversion. Otherwise, just take the Munich -Paris night train, spend another night in Paris.

Your new schedule looks much better, although it still gets awfully crowded towards the end of your trip to Italy. I haven't been yet so I can't give specific advice but just on paper it looks pretty hectic. Keep in mind you can have a "chill day" anywhere. I would eliminate at least one destination from the back part of your trip. Maybe two.

thanks, all that info is very useful. i made a new itinerary. decided to cut germany and start in london. would this one work: - 1 20h depart - connection in são paulo- to london 2 15h arrive light tour london (3 nights) 3 full day london 4 full day london 5 train to paris half day paris (3 nights) 6 full day paris 7 full day paris 8 half day paris and train 16h to lauterbrunnen 22h (2 nights) 9 full day alps 10 3/4 day alps 18h night train to napoli 11 arrive 9h30 pompei day (and vesuvio if possible) sleep roma (3 nights) 12 full day roma 13 full day roma 14 3/4 day roma sleep florence (2 nights) 15 full day florence 16 train to cinque terre (do nothing, chill day) (2 nights) 17 full day cinque terre 18 train and venice day (1 night) 19 some more venice and 19h plane back home from venice 20 arrive home - continues...

anything i should change? if i could do any changes or add an extra day, it would be in the alps or in pompeii/napoli. i MIGHT be able to get this extra day, but it won't be easy. ideally i should do the trip in these 20 days. i decided to buy a 6 day in 2 month pass, as none of the passes cover london and 6 traveling days is all i'm gonna need. that pass is way cheaper (343 us dollars) than the 15 consecutive days pass (490). (i'm 20 so i can get the youth 2nd class passes). in contrast though, the open jaw flights cost about 500 dollars more than the roundtrip that i had previously planned. but the flight hours are very good, with very brief connections: 1 hour waiting in são paulo in both ways and one 3 hour waiting in paris on the flight back. this is incredible compared to most options i've seen that had as much as 18 hour waiting times in lisbon for example. for those interested my name is julia and i live in florianopolis, brazil. anything else? thanks again for the help.

Hi, I find your revised itinerary much easier to do. That's not to say that your original one could not have been done, which in my twenties I could have done minus Switzerland and Napoli, since those places don't interest me anyway. A pity you dropped Germany but you'll see that next time. I would suggest staying in hostels or small hotels in the train station area to save time getting to station in the morning. Also, if you intend to stick to the revised plan, get all the train reservations the night you arrive in Italy...no use wasting time later standing in line. You'll need to reserve the TGV from Paris to Switzerland even though you have a Youth Pass.

Julia, Your revised plan looks much better, but I still see a few areas where improvements could be made. A few thoughts..... > I'm assuming the notations such as "22h" are referring to the time of arrival. I don't normally like arriving in a new location as late as 22:00, as checking-in to a Hotel at that time is not always "easy". In some smaller Hotels the front desk may be closed and the door locked at that time. You'll need to be sure to tell the Hotel that you'll be a "late arrival". Also, in the case of Lauterbrunnen, I'm not sure what time the local Berner Oberland train quits operating? > On the last part of your journey, I'd suggest travelling Roma - Cinque Terre - Florence - Venice. There's a direct train from Roma Termini to La Spezia with a travel time of about 3H:30M, so the trip is easy. Travel time from there to Florence is very short and from Florence to Venice is only about two hours. IMHO, that will minimize your travel times. > Are you planning to use Napoli as a "home base" while touring that area? You might consider Sorrento instead. > Fitting Pompeii and Vesuvio into the same day could be a bit "challenging". I can't recall the transportation options between Sorrento and Vesuvio, but it will involve a Bus ride as the entrance point is on the side of the mountain. Be sure you work out those details carefully. > Be sure to wear a Money Belt if you're on the Circumvesuviana! > As some of the other have mentioned, when travelling with a Railpass, you'll need to purchase reservations separately. Be sure to budget for that. Especially in Italy, DON'T be caught without a valid reservation on a train where this is required, as you may be fined on the spot, and it won't be cheap! Cheers!

ken, the train to la spezia is interesting, but i don't think it'll be very good for me. it would give me more time in ct (or an extra night in rome), none of which i really need, and less time in florence. see: 14 3/4 day roma sleep ct 15 ct chill day 16 ct hiking day 17 train florence, rest of day florence 18 train and venice day (1 night) 19 some more venice and 19h plane back home from venice 20 arrive home - of course, i could cut the hiking day and use that night to travel to florence and wake up there to enjoy a full day, but a chill day in ct BEFORE the hiking day is very important to me, because it's right after the chaotic napoli day and the days in a big city like rome and then florence. and i don't need this chill day to last 24 hours, that's why going from florence to ct after spending a full day in florence seems the best choice for me. that way i can relax for an afternoon and a night and rest well for the hiking in the next day. of course, keeping this order means i don't get any extra time in venice, but since the plane leaves late in the last day, i'll have 2 half days to enjoy that city. a bit hectic, but i think it's doable.

the reservation you guys are talking about are the reservations for seats? not sure why i would need to reserve anything with a travel pass.

ken, you are right about the late arrivals. arriving 22h to check in a hotel is crazy. i will need to travel earlier. also, i don't intend to use napoli as a home base in the pompeii day. i would arrive in the morning, do my stuff AND travel back to rome in the same day. of course, this is easily manageable by sleeping in napoli and traveling to rome in the next morning, as it's only 1 hour away or so. maybe that's better?

in some countries, say, Italy, you need to make additional reservations for seats on certain trains, even if you have a rail pass. you will not be allowed to travel on the train without them. it's one of the reasons rail passes aren't always a good idea. i suggest doing some more reading on this board before making any firm plans, these topics are addressed regularly.

Hi, Certain trains, such as the TGV Paris- Switzerland, have mandatory reservations. It's always mandatory on a TGV, day or night. That seat reservation is probably ca. 10 Euro second class with your Youth Pass. In Austria and Germany (day) reservations are not mandatory for the ICE, RJ, IC, or regional trains. With your Youth Pass 2nd class, you can just hop on...Vienna-Salzburg, Vienna-Munich, Vienna-Cologne, Vienna-Berlin via Munich, etc. I use a Select Pass. It varies by country and type of train on whether the reservation is for the seat is mandatory, otherwise without presenting the reservation along with your Pass, you won't be allowed to board. The controllers on the platform are more interested in seeing that reservation than your ticket or Pass.

Some trains require mandatory seat reservations...regardless of having a rail pass or not. And you will be required to pay a reservation fee....regardless of rail pass or not. The German rail website (and maybe other country's train sites), an icon will show up (capital R) if you have to reserve a seat. By the way, your itinerary is looking so much better! Edit: I did not see that someone else answered your reservation question...sorry for the repeat info! Also, in my experience, it is a good idea to make reservations, at latest, the day before you travel.