Is it our Fault?

Threadwear, I agree. It's all about good old fashioned capitalism supply and demand.

Consider this: If people continue to tolerate mediocre service then why change the culture? Planes are often full. Business is good. Evidence suggests, as you say, that people will continue to pay rock-bottom prices to get to Europe.

I like your idea of a 2,000 flight to Europe that includes seats between steerage and business class. It sounds something like Delta-plus, which is a step up from coach but imo not as good as premium economy on other airlines.

Big Mike,

What if the whole plane was Premier seating? No steerage, no business or first class. A man can always dream.

This is available and has been tried on others.

La Compagnie is an all business class airline that sometimes offers great deals. Currently, it is the only one of its type.

British Airways used to offer an all business class flight between London City airport and JFK in NY. It was on a small Airbus A319. It disappeared during the pandemic.

However, people mostly want cheap flights. For those who want better service, they have to shell out for business or first class.

I do not quite accept the general notion that airlines have become poor service oriented enterprises. In my personal experience, I've had nothing but good service from the airline I fly. I also realize that is not the case for everyone all of the time, airlines have certainly had their meltdowns, and we all like to look at the past with rose colored glasses.

As far as consumers, our problem is that we all to often have unreasonable expectations, do not understand what we are buying or the terms that we've agreed to, all the while shopping for a champagne experience on a beer budget.

Does anyone remember when American Airlines marketed increased legroom in economy class as "More Room Throughout Coach" 2000? Economy seats had a pitch of 34 inches and it didn't work out so AA discontinued such seat pitch in 2004.

Back in the early '90s there was a new airline ( I believe Midwest Express) that flew from the central US, that started out with all first class 2x2 seating, at competitive coach prices. They had faux leather seats, real china plates and cutlery, and warm chocolate chip cookies. I flew them once and it was a great experience. But they couldn't compete, gradually gave up their special features, and merged a couple of times, ending up part of Frontier (as I recall). The invisible hand of the marketplace at work.

Yes consumers are fickle and it's our fault. Remember when all these folks swore they'd never fly United again, after that passenger was roughed up by police for not complying with orders to get off? They're still in business, and people get roughed up every week across the board, with only a youtube video to show for it.

The statement was originally made about clothing shopping, but "Every time the American consumer has been offered a choice between service and price, they have chosen ... price."

Threadware, I get it. It would take someone smarter than me to determine if that's a sustainable business model. I do like the idea.

Tim, right. Just look at Wal Mart and so forth. It's all about saving money. Nobody goes there to enjoy the experience or customer service.

VAP, well said.

Yes consumers are fickle and it's our fault. Remember when all these folks swore they'd never fly United again, after that passenger was roughed up by police for not complying with orders to get off? 

I never blamed United for that incident. United's connection was their partnership with Republic Air and crew serving as United Express. United handled the PR poorly but it was Republic Air and the airport police.

My priority is a safe flight and then decent legroom (Comfort Plus spacing for my older, tall legs) and a clean plane where I can attempt to sleep.

If the cost is $2000 from the East Coast, then it’s going to be much more from a small city near the West Coast. That extra cost would probably be the deciding factor of being able to travel to Europe or just staying somewhere in the US. So, yes, the cost I’m willing to pay definitely drives my travel decisions.

WRONG, I prefer competitive pricing to inflated fixed prices with lordly service.

If you want special service, pay for Business or First Class.

I remember in 1970 a professor in my law school was proposing for students to study International Law at his villa in Mallorca, Spain.
Airfare was to be almost $500 pp. The cost of a soda was 10 cents in 1970.

A 1970 dollar is worth $ 7.86. If the airfare was $500 in 1970, it would be $3930 today. I can still buy a ticket to Spain and Mallorca for about 1/3 of that inflated cost.

We usually fly Delta and their parter airlines Air France and KLM. We find the service to be very good to excellent; the food is good, sometimes very good. Yes, the seats are smaller, but I can live with that for a few hours.

VAP, I'm with you. I've had decent, if not very good service on airlines and nothing that would qualify as bad. I don't like to pay four figures for an 8-hour flight, especially when that figure could get me 2 RT tickets to Europe. And I don't think you get bad service - I think you get seats that are not as large or have as much legroom, which is fine with me. And that is for mid-price flights. If I fly Ryan Air or Spirit or one of the basic economy airlines, I expect less. It's all relative.

And it doesn't stop with flying. When I eat at a chain restaurant, like Panera, I expect to sit in basic seats and have low ambience around me. When I go to a 5 star restaurant, I expect the opposite. In other words, it doesn't have to be all or nothing - you pays your money and you takes your choice. There are thousands of people who scrimp and save to be able to afford a trip to Europe, and they don't mind sitting in a somewhat uncomfortable seat because they are on their way to a wonderful adventure.

I do think that things have changed over the years - bad or not, I can't say. But for that, I think we can blame the internet. :)

I agree with you, Threadwear. The airlines need to make a profit to stay in business and they accomplish that by giving us what we have told them by our behavior that we want. Most people I know go to great lengths to find the lowest price ticket they can find.

In my experience, service is fine. The problem is the size of the seats and lack of legroom, all the security measures that are now required, and bad weather which wrecks havoc with schedules. Safety is the most important attribute, and you’ve got to hand it to the airlines for that one. Flying is very safe.

Do I love the airlines? No. It’s mostly an unpleasant experience. But I think they are behaving rationally.

Richard Branson, founder of Virgin Atlantic, said "Do you want to know the secret to making a million dollars in the airline industry? Start with 10 million."

I am six foot and weight a bit more than I should for my height. I fit in Basic Economy just fine; meaning by butt fits east to west and my knees have never touched the seat in front of me and will never as long as I have the slightest amount of posture.

On an average day there are about 1200 cancled flights in the US each day. On an average day there are about 90,000 flights in total. Sounds like something is working.

Basic Economy food sucks. But you can bring your own food on the plane. Oh, Premium Economy food sucks too and Business class food is not worth a three thousand dollar price tag ......... cause it sucks too, only a little less.

The attitude of the staff is no worse than the attitude of any staff in the US. Okay, that is sort of like the food. It sucks.

My flight to Budapest in December is
$982 Economy Light
$1781 Premium Economy
$3881 Business

But I paid for Business Class with points ... so it didnt cost anything .... Really? It is exactly how "they" want you to think.

Just kidding guys. Each to their own.

Airline food sucks? I have to ask what are folks expecting?

That food is prepared in a contractor's industrial kitchen, to the volume of 10s of thousands, par-cooked and then finished onboard a flight. I don't think I've had a bad in flight meal, but I've always understood the constraints and have always maintained reasonable expectations. It's not gourmet it's the same as any other prepared or frozen meal.

I have to ask what are folks expecting

Sucky food. Except maybe Turkish Air. They are usually pretty "acceptable" except for all the strange shape non-stacking bowl sizes that make staying organized somewhat difficult. But I think you missed the point.

First world problems.

An interesting fact about the whole airline sector is that it is, in fact, structurally loss making.

If you were to add the profit/loss statements of all the airlines that have ever existed since the Wright Brothers' first flight and you get a large negative figure. Given how fierce the competition is, and how next to impossible it is to run a profit it is a wonder that new companies still get started...

WengenK; which is why I laugh everytime I hear a complaint that the airlines are trying to make too much profit.

And anything that can get me from here to there, as inexpensively and as effortlessly as modern airlines do is a beautiful experience (with sucky food)

I'm fairly certain that maybe 7 years or so ago an airline tried the "All Premium Economy" or "All business class" from London Gatwick to New York. Prices were fairly reasonable (certainly much better than the average flag carrier) - but they lasted about a month because of lack of demand.

I think we are to blame, and maybe some of it is slow introduction of changes so we don't notice. in 2018 I flew BA to Cape Town from London. They wee having issues with their Boeing 787s, so the had brought back some fairly old 747s. Initially I was disappointed - the plane looked tired, the entertainment system a little outdated - but I soon realised that I was far more comfortable than on a more modern aircraft - I actually had legroom and getting out of the window seat didn't involve contortions.

A lot of people want Spirit Airlines pricing and expect the amenities to be first class like in the 60's or 70's. You get what you pay for. As for skiplagging it was around 40 years ago, but the airlines IMHO let it slide at least in the one instance that I personally know about. Now the airlines are protecting their pricing structure zealously. I can't blame them. They gotta make a profit.

I recently read that the airline industry is expected to make $10 billion in profits this year, so don’t cry for them. If I remember correctly, it was deregulation of the business (Thank you Ronald Reagan) that led to the collapse of competition and subsequent near monopoly conditions in many markets. Except for a few major locations, consumers have little choice. So, no, I don’t accept the blame.

It is also true that many of the passengers in business class are flying on their employers’ dime (or on points accumulated when they flew for business). Since businesses write off the cost on their taxes, there is a tax payer subsidy involved in providing all the nice conditions in b.c.
The food issue is, for me, less important than the miserable crowding. Though, with security regulations, bringing your own is not so easy as it used to be. I am 5 feet tall, and I don’t understand how anyone larger can be comfortable on a 10 or 12 hour flight. It’s even a health hazard.

it was deregulation of the business (Thank you Ronald Reagan) that led to the collapse of competition and subsequent near monopoly conditions in many markets.

President Jimmy Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act into law on October 24, 1978, the first time in U.S. history that an industry was deregulated.

...deregulation of the business...led to the collapse of competition and subsequent near monopoly.

Initially, deregulation actually increased competition. But the increase in the number of smaller airlines made it impossible for all of the airlines to survive. They either went under, or were merged with larger airlines. The problem with the near monopolistic situation we deal with today, is that a wry twist of the supply and demand economics comes into play. If they can control the supply, they can demand whatever price they want. And they do both, and will continue to do so until prices reach a level that people just refuse to pay.

During regulation all the airlines made profit, service was good, and prices were reasonable. Oh well, so much for the good times that have flown away.

Is it our fault the airlines are the way they are? I think it might be.

It is but, not in the way you think! So long as your politicians fear big business more than they fear you the voter, you'll get screwed. There is no reason why EU style consumer protection can't be implemented in the US beyond the fact that politicians don't feel the need to do it. All big US corporations operate in Europe according to European laws and obviously make sufficient profits, otherwise they would not do it. So you are not going to see the US airline industry wiped out if they have to comply with good consumer protection in the US either.

We have about 10 big airlines in the US. of those 4 are considered major and of those four 3 fly over seas. We have a handful of foreign flag carriers but they mostly work in association with the big three US not in competition with them. So all things being equal these airlines are going yo average 1/3 of all European flights say 30%
They know this, they know you have little to no options so they do what they want and we can live with it or not. They are not really worried we will change airlines as the loyalty programs and even our credit cards and banks are locked into them
Also any given airport has a dominate carrier group that you almost have to use if you are starting from that location.
So they are mot real worried that you will leave them and if you do the math says that odds are someone from the other two will come to them to take your place.
This is not capitalism as we. simple do not have enough options to choose from to allow supply and demand to work.
The constant stream of mergers and then alliance's has put paid to the ability of passengers to have any control over the situation.
My local airport is expensive to fly out of. You can start farther west, fly into my airport then board the same flight as me and fly to Europe right next to ke and pay 10-40 percent less then i am paying and you flew farther. Why? because we. have ZERO say in this.
To make it worse I am taxed to build the airport these folks are using,

I recently read that the airline industry is expected to make $10
billion in profits this year, so don’t cry for them.

But you should. This year the IATA predicts worldwide a $9.8 Billion net profit which is a 1.2% profit margin and no one should be happy with that tight a margin --- not if you want the airline to be there next year for your next trip.
Losses during COVID were over $150 Billion.

Since businesses write off the cost on their taxes, there is a tax
payer subsidy involved in providing all the nice conditions in b.c.

Not on their “taxes” on their “income” used to calculate their taxes. But yes, with some subjective limitations.

with security regulations, bringing your own is not so easy as it used
to be

Sure it is. Restaurants and shops throughout the departure halls.

I don’t understand how anyone larger can be comfortable on a 10 or 12
hour flight

I am 6 foot and 100kg, and do it not less than 3 times a year. It’s more of a psychological thing than a physical thing. I paid a lot of attention on the last trip. I flew Delta, KLM, Lufthansa, Wizz and Ryan and in the process every description of plane. Not once, when sitting somewhat properly did my knees ever touch the seat in front of me; not even when the person in front leaned the seat back. But I do confess that if you are a little claustrophobic or let the hype of danger and constriction begin to play games in your mind that it is entirely possible for someone to freak out in those seats. But every airline offers options to get more room. Not sure of a health hazard. In our litigious society if there were grounds for that we would all be part of a class action lawsuit by now.

Flying got more expensive after deregulation

Not even close to being true. https://simpleflying.com/50-years-airfares/

Personally i love what capatalism has done for my ability to see the world. If I were my age 40 years ago, I would not be able to live the life I am living now. In large part to smart people keeping the airlines flying and at remarkably low prices. The sacrafice I have had to make in this is to put up with sucky food.

There is no reason why EU style consumer protection can't be implemented in the US beyond the fact that politicians don't feel the need to do it.

"We have the best government money can buy." Mark Twain was ahead of his time.

TC if it gets rid of the sucky food, I am all in for it.
OHhhhhh, and resolves the M&M shortage .... not the peanut ones, the real ones.....

No I don’t think the problems with flying are all our fault. For instance some say flyers expect first class service at discount prices. I certainly don’t. But I do expect to get what the airlines pitch in their advertised fares. My last experience was flying AA in Premium Economy to Europe. AA advertises it as an “elevated flying experience”. They list a designated cabin area behind Business with dedicated cabin storage bins only for PE use. An amenities kit, blanket, elevated food service and complimentary beer and wine. Of course the seats are larger and have special recline with footrests. Well it was a lot of hype really. In the end the biggest advantage was having more space and larger seats which was an important reason I bought PE. People in coach came up and put bags in the PE overhead compartments. The flight attendant served us the same as those in coach with the same amount of attention (or lack of). It was difficult to ask for a second glass of wine or anything else. The special seat adjustment was broken on my seat. I sat bulkhead and steps from the Business restroom where the curtain was open. When I tried to use the restroom, the Business attendant nearly bit my head off telling me I could not (okay maybe that one was fair). The amenities kit was not worth much. So I’ll pay more for a bigger seat and more legroom , but don’t try to sell me that it is an Elevated Flying Experience.