Is Germany inexpensive?

...Without knowing where you traveled, it's kind of difficult to answer that question completely. Obviously, Bavaria, the Rhineland and Baden-Wurttemberg are more expensive than Saxony or Mecklenburg.

But in general, I have usually found expenses in Germany to be somewhere in the middle- less expensive than Scandinavia, Austria, Britain, Switzerland and Ireland, more expensive than Belgium, the Netherlands, France (minus Paris, of course) and all of eastern Europe. I wouldn't know how it compares to Italy.

I actually think Germany may be cheaper than France - I know people who live in border towns (ie, Strasbourg) who will drive over the border to go shopping, they claim it's cheaper to do that than to just do their shopping in France.

I think your daily averages are extremely close to my own based on my 11-day sojourn through Germany this June. I spent a little less on rooms due to an exceptionally reasonable (16 Euro single) and comfortable B&B find in the the Black Forest where I spent 4 days, a little more on transport, a little less on food (too busy hiking to dine out much.) But my trip and yours, as I recall, did not involve major cities, where prices would naturally be higher for accommodations since well-located family B&B's are much scarcer.

My trip to Florence, Rome, Siena, and Pisa, done as a group of 3, was decidedly more expensive - probably about 80% more per person despite diligent planning and budgeting. Much of that can probably be due to those particular destinations, but having researched some more rural Italian destinations as well, I think a solo trip comparable to my German vacation would still have been at least 40-50% more expensive.

Germany is surely one of the most affordable countries in Western Europe, if not the most affordable.

Lee, I'd be interested in your itinerary. Does your transportation cost include travel between cities? You must have planned exceedingly well to keep your accommodation and transportation costs so low. I hope someone answers your questions re comparison with Italy. I'd like to visit the big three - Venice, Florence and Rome on a tight budget, going solo. Can't imagine it could be done for $100 a day, especially since I've never been there.
Best, B.

Russ, you are right. Staying in small towns is one thing that keep expenses down. Fortunately I love the small towns, and some of the neatest stuff in Germany is there. I'm not big on museums, but I love castle, walled cities, and beautiful scenery.

Speaking the language helps too, as in half the places I stayed the host didn't speak English.

The first 12 nights I spent a total of €342 (€28,50 per night), then, the last night in Mainz, I spent 15% of my total (€62) just at Königshof. I could have stayed in the Black Forest another night @ €25 and come into FRA on an ICE, but I wanted to try the Königshof, since I recommend it to people leaving early from FRA.

Brianna, yes, that included all transportation costs, €202. As Gary pointed out, Germany is a great place for transportation bargains. On two of my travel days, I went 930 km, total, for €58 (€62 w/ reservations) on two purchase ahead Dauer-Spezial tickets from the Bahn website. On two other days I went from FRA to Cochem (160 km) and Karlsruhe to Mainz (140 km) for €18 for each leg with Rheinland-Pfalz-Single tickets (all day passes for regional trains).

As for Italy, distances are short and rail fares are low, so if you buy p-p tickets and go in 2nd class, you shouldn't spend too much. On the other hand, if you stay in big cities, and depend on major hotels for English, your accommodation cost will be high. Learn some Italian and find out how public transportation works, then you can stay outside the big cities in lower cost places and commute in.

We spent 10 days in Bavaria and Austria, had three people, and stayed in B & B's. Not including airfare we spent E 69.00 pp per day. We spent 14 days in Italy, again in B&B's and including everything (except air) we spent E 92.00 pp per day. This was one trip, last Sept.-Oct. I was very surprised because I thought Italy was double the price. It seemed we had more expensive entertainment, B & B's and food. I think it was less expensive having three people because it was only a bit more for hotels than it would have been for a double. Hope I figured it correctly, but I guess if you count it in dollars it could change from day to day!!

S & M (Hmm, never noticed that. Interesting implications) Oh, well.

But, I think we always have to compare the cost "on the ground" so to speak, in Euro.

Someone flying from California to Italy can travel as inexpensively in Europe and still have far more expenses than someone going from, say, Boston to Dublin. And, we have to use Euro. Hotels I stayed in in 2000 haven't changed their prices in Euro, but the Euro has gone from $0.89 on my first trip to $1.43 last year in Bavaria. At $0.89, I could make my budget impressive, but it wasn't me.

But, I don't know. I speak a little German and understand the public transportation system in Germany, so I can travel inexpensively there. But I would be helpless in Italy. What if someone speaks Italian and knows Trenitalia? Can they do the same?

Not having been to Germany yet, I can only offer my experiences in Italy and general guesses. While speaking Italian certainly does not hurt, I don't think the language issue really affects price that much. If anything, it increases your options (being able to stay in non-English speaking locations) which can sometimes get you a better price, I think the two key factors in saving money are:

1) Taste for simple things. If you stay in a 5-star German-speaking hotel, it will obviously cost you far more than an English-speaking hostel. Likewise, a full three-course Italian dinner can easily run 20-30 euro for one person, and that doesn't account for gelato!

2) Planning. People who are in the know spend less. Language may help here, since it opens up more research options.

And I do think Italy is just more expensive in general. If you compared Germany to, say, Portugal, I wonder if you would get the same responses?

Lee...you have this idea that only if you speak the language can you get a good deal. True, knowing the language helps, but knowing how to plan and look for deals--especially with the usefulness of the internet--can save you money.

It takes some time and effort, but searching, learning, and asking questions can get you some amazing tips on saving money.

I've never let lack of language skills stop me from going to an area. I try to learn a little of the language of the area I'm visiting and always, somehow, make myself understood. Sure, if I spoke the language fluently I might learn how to save a few Euros here and there, but I'm not going to let lack of language stop me from enjoying Tuscany, or lack of language stopping me from sipping a coffee at an outdoor cafe in Paris, or lack of language stop me from a ride through the Tirols.

When I started traveling years go, there was no internet. We had guidebooks, tourist offices, and had to rely more on travel agents to get information. (How many remember Rick's quarterly newsletters?) Now, all I have to do is turn on my computer and I can find just about anything I want to know.

And when someone suggests an estimate of what it costs to travel, that's all it is...an estimate. Some will travel for less and some will travel for more. It is just a guideline and not a rule. And in this case, it is so generic, it's almost ridiculous to use as a guideline unless you are traveling the same itinerary RS used for that estimate. If you're visiting cities, it will cost more than visiting small towns. If you're visiting the North, it will probably cost more than visiting the South.

The biggest key to finances is figuring out how much you have to spend and planning a trip around that. And with the amount of planning you do, I can't imagine you NOT getting the best prices.

I don't think Germany is necessarily inexpensive but it's not as outrageous as some other European countries.

Two really expensive places that come to mind are Scandinavia and Switzerland.

Before the Euro I thought Austria was one of the most affordable places to travel.

Hi Lee,
From my experience smaller cities in Germany are comparable in cost to smaller cities in Italy, Croatia, Hungary, Slovenia and Spain. I also think that Berlin is less expensive compared to other larger cities in Europe. It seems that France, Switzerland, and Austria are more expensive for travel compared to other countries.

Remember too, that you were in Germany when the dollar was at a recent low--if you went today, your costs would be about 10 percent higher.

I'm always impressed with how well you plan--you demonstrate that European travel can be very affordable!

Sharon

We just recently returned from 5 days in Brugge and 5 days in Prague.
We averaged approx $80 perperson per day and that included roughly $200 in souvenirs. It included local transportation.

you were in Germany when the dollar was at a recent low

Sharon, yes that made a difference. I got my Euro at ATMs for an average of $1.29. That's why I like to make my comparisons in Euro, not $. I actually keep my expense sheet in Euro. Correcting a mistake that counted my entrances and misc. twice, my total in Euro was €72,40 per day.

And, Frank (USA), I think knowing the language does make a difference in finding low cost accommodations. It helps in reading non-English small town websites to look for accommodations, although once you learn a few key words, you can probably get by. Then I write eamils in German, and get my response in German. I found that people who rent out a couple of rooms in their home are less likely to speak English. But, then, I guess hostels can be as inexpensive, and you can often book them online in English.

I just didn't want to mislead anyone as to how I save. If I ate mostly from grocery stores, or traveled mainly by bike, I would mention that too. I also mentioned that I was traveling solo. It's probably less expensive (per person) with more people.

In my experience, I'd say that Germany definitely cheaper than Italy. I don't speak any German and only a little bit of Italian (one semester's worth), but I spent much less on accomodations, transportation, and food in Germany.

In May 2008 I traveled to the Mosel (stayed in Cochem), Rhine (Bacharach), and Bavaria (Munich, Fuessen, Rothenburg) for a total of 12 days and spend on average €19/person/night on accommodation (no hostels, sharing a double), €15 food/day, €13/day transportation, and around €8/day on entrance fees. So, about €55/day total. Obviously traveling with someone usually is cheaper than going by yourself.

I, like Lee, am also a compulsive planner. I book most hotels by looking at the town's websites and comparing prices between rail passes and P2P tickets using bahn.de or whatever the nat'l rail website is.

So, to answer your question, I'd say that Germany falls somewhere in the middle. Spain was much cheaper, Italy more expensive. Actually I found Germany to be very similar to France - at least as far as food and accomodation prices go. Last time I was in Italy (2004) we spent around €25/pp/n (Rome was much more). I think part of the reason it's so reasonable to travel around Germany is the great train ticket deals they have for weekends and off-peak hours - the €27/5 people tickets. The only "deals" Trenitalia has is the 20% early booking deals. (all we could find anyway)

I can't imagine ever spending $5,600 per person for a month in Europe. Not even in Britain. My next trip is to England/Scotland for 20 days and I'm estimating it will cost about £750 + airfare, although that's staying in hostels since I'll be traveling solo.

Lee..with all the free online translations available, almost enyone can write and receive an email in a foreign language...here's the paragraph you wrote to me in your previous post translated by Google. It took about 30 seconds. (Is it perfect German, probably not, but understandable):

Und, Frank (USA), glaube ich zu wissen, die Sprache macht einen großen Unterschied bei der Suche nach niedrigen Kosten Unterkünfte. Es hilft beim Lesen nicht-englische Kleinstadt Websites auf die Suche nach Unterkünften, obwohl, wenn Sie lernen, ein paar Stichworte, können Sie sich wahrscheinlich durch. Dann schreibe ich eamils in Deutsch, und erhalten Sie meine Antwort auf Deutsch. Ich fand, dass Menschen, die vermieten ein paar Zimmer in ihrem Haus sind weniger wahrscheinlich, Englisch zu sprechen. Aber dann, ich schätze Hostels kann so preiswert, und Sie können oft Buchen Sie sie online in Englisch.

What I was trying to get across was that if you limit yourself to visiting only places you speak the language, you're going to miss out on most of the world.

But, if you're happy only visiting one or two countries in detail and nothing else, then that is your right to do so. Everyone should travel and see what they like, not what someone else suggests they do.

Hi Lee,
I agree with Frank--would you consider stretching outside your comfort zone and visiting Spain or Italy?
Sharon

Just for fun, try taking that translation you got from Babelfish and put it back in for a German to English translation.

Ops. Sorry, that was a Google translation. I looks a little better when Google translates it back. However, the into-German translation completely misses the point of my first sentence which was that I believe knowing a language makes a big difference. Instead it says I believe I know that language makes a big difference.

These translators have a little problem with word order, which is quite different between English and German. Maybe it does better with a Romance Language, like Italian.

We are kind of getting off the question here, which is "Is Germany inexpensive?"

I asked because I have seen an estimate of what it costs to travel in Europe, but my own costs, in Germany, are far less. So, I wanted to know, is the estimate wrong? If so, do people read the estimate and conclude that they can't afford it and don't go, when they really could?

Or, is the estimate correct for Europe in general, but Germany is just much less expensive than the average?

Or is the estimate accurate for people who don't know what they are doing and therefore spend more to compensate for it - rental cars, which tend to cost more, because they can't understand the public transportation - expensive multi-star hotels because they don't want to cope with the local language - or ordering more expensive American dishes, because the menu is in the local language, not English?

I only brought up the question of language ability because I wondered if it "skewed" my observations, not for people to criticize me for wanting to practice the only 2nd language I know.

So, Sharon, are you suggesting I visit Spain or Italy?

How does that agree with Frank's statement, "Everyone should travel and see what they like, not what someone else suggests they do"?

If you stay in a 5-star German-speaking hotel ....

A "5-star German-speaking hotel"? That doesn't exist! By German Hotel and Restaurant Association requirements, any hotel, to have three or more stars, must have a bilingual (German/English) staff.

That said, I stayed on my last trip in a three-star hotel in the Harz, and the only staff member that I would call bilingual was the manager, who was only there during the day.

People who are in the know spend less. Language may help here, since it opens up more research options.

Liz, I like that. Kind of says it all.

Knowing the language can definitely help and open up more options in that area.

But insisting one be fluent in a language before visiting a country limits the traveler to where he or she eventually visits. I do my best to learn a little and if I can't get the best deal, or have a conversation.....well....it can be fun trying to understand each other.

I caught a terrible cold in Venice and found the only pharmacy where no one spoke English and I don't speak Italian. Somehow, I walked out with a box of Sudafed.

I had ants in my hotel room in Paris and no one behind the desk spoke English. I speak very little French. Somehow, I got the problem taken care of and a free drink at the bar.

About the only time I couldn't get myself understood was in a small town outside of Heidelberg. I couldn't get the bartender to pour a decent beer. I spoke little German and he spoke none.

To each, his own. We all must travel how and where we feel comfortable.

But back to the original question....giving an estimate for a trip to europe is like giving a European an estimate of visiting the U.S. You have to be more specific as to where you're going.

I think the estimate RS gave was as if you were following his 21 day tour From Amsterdam to France with a few days thrown in.

Hi,

I really can't give a good comparison as to which country is more expensive than the next due to the fact we've only been to Germany, Austria, Dolomite region of Italy (6 times last 8 years) and Switzerland. My opinion/experience is that Switzerland is most expensive of these places.

Last 6 trips have been between 10 and 12 days. We spend roughly $3,700 for the two of us, incl. r/t airfare from NJ, rental car, gas, meals, etc. We travel mostly in Oct., stay in small towns/villages at family run pensions and gasthofs (all, so far, have had a nice buffet breakfast incl.) and eat dinner in local restaurants. We shop for our snacks and drinks (for our day trips or to have in our room) at the local supermarkets.

We always plan our stays using local websites for accomodations. I do speak German fairly well but I think if you can make out the key parts of the accomodations listings and can write for a reservation (in basic, simple German words) it wouldn't matter. We have stayed in places where no one spoke English at all though... Heiligenblut and Soelden, Austria.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I (we) find Germany, Austria and the Dolomites area of Italy to be very reasonable. Ok, inexpensive. Bavaria in particular.

Paul

Hi Lee,
If you haven't been to Spain or Italy, Lee I do think that you should go! I only say that because for a few years I only went to Paris--I loved Paris! I felt comfortable there, knew my way around, and sort of spoke the language. When I married my husband he encouraged me to try new destinations. Since then, I've been to Germany, Ireland, Scotland, Croatia, Slovenia, Spain, Portugal, Italy, the Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, and Argentina. Each destination is different but I love them all! I'm so glad that I've seen more than just Paris. I know that's off topic but since you asked...
I wish you happy travels where ever you decide to go!!

Not sure if it is fair of me to add to this since I live here, but I think Germany is fairly inexpensive compared to what we have paid in Paris, Bayeux, Brugge, Milan or Rome. Coffee and water were cheaper though in Milan. I also find Berlin to be a lot cheaper than Frankfurt with restaurants.

Compared to the states though, I found German produce was cheaper and nicer, meat about the same and cheeses cheaper and better. Drinks and snacks in the states were cheaper. Restaurant meals were cheaper on the whole though.

Paul, you make some good points. On my trip to Bavaria last year I averaged €34 per night for the first 11 nights in small towns, then spent €54 per night just outside of Munich. Same thing this last trip, €28,50 for the first 12 nights, then €62 the last night in Mainz (Königshof).

But, is that $5600 estimate for multi-starred hotels, rental cars, and mainstream restaurants? That from the author of, "The more you spend the bigger the wall you build between you and what you came to see." So his quote is for the clueless?

But, does that $5600 estimate apply for the clueless in all countries, or are some countries less expensive? Which ones? And, for someone who can take advantage of the bargains, is some country (like Germany) better?

That might be true. In Germany I regularly look for the cheapest (am Preiswertigsten) accommodations within walking distance of the Bahnhof. I've never had a bad room that way. It might be small, but it is clean, well maintained, and for the most part modern. The Germans have high standards. Would I dare look for the most economical accommodations in Italy and expect the same results? I haven't tried, but I don't think so.

Also, German Rail has some of the most economical rail deals.

I think Rick has shifted his audience to include an older, more mature traveller. (I say that as an older, more mature 25-year old!) Not necessarily those who need to stay in luxury resorts, but those who would like to be one step above the youth hostel, and especially those who prefer B&Bs. Additionally, as another poster pointed out, the budget is multi-country and I have to assume that would raise the price significantly as you are a) more likely to focus on cities and b) spending more on transportation. You also won't get any long-term deals such as week-long apartment rentals.

As for Italy and cleanliness, I think it just varies place to place. The 2-star hotel we stayed in Rome (95 euro) was absolutely spotless as was the apartment in Orvieto (70 euro). We didn't pay for the hotel in Florence as it was part of the RS tour. While it was clean, it lacked that 'shiningly spotless' quality. It was a 3-star hotel and I believe priced around 130 euro.

Lee, you point out one of the wonders of travel, that you can adjust your itinerary to accomodate your budget. Is Germany Inexpensive? the answer is that it can be, and so can Britain, and Italy, and Greece, basically just about anywhere in Europe if you do it right. I will admit that it is much more difficult if you stick to major cities (Rome, Paris, London...even Berlin, Frankfurt, and Munich) but if you are willing to do the work and tap into the local scene for food and lodging...as opposed to the well travelled tourist path, the results will be as you found. I find also that day to day spending on food, admissions, guides, shopping, etc. can be turned up or dialed back to accomodate budget or exchange rates. Transportation, if expensive, can be adjusted by savoring a locale longer rather than many moves and hopping from place to place. Feet or buses can work as well as taxis...the list goes on.

I found transportation in Germany one of the most expensive in Europe. I didn't use the subway in Germany, just the bus and tramway and the cheapest ticket was 3.50 DM at that time, '92-'96. In other countries in Europe you can buy a day pass for a few Euros, usually 4 or 5 EUR or 1 EUR per ticket.
Maybe in some larger cities in germany you can save mone, but in Stuttgart where I lived, it was that expensive.

Lee is obviously very good at stretching his money. I would say you could travel to any European country on a similar budget. But, I think Rick caters to those who want to maximize their travel dollar AND their limited travel time. This means, staying in places closer to tourist destinations and not wasting valuable time commuting to sites. There is even an added benefit, tourist cities, such as Venice, are completely different at night when the day trippers have left. But, this increases hotel and meal costs substantially to something which more resembles the linked itinerary above.

Going back to the original question. Yes, Germany is cheaper than Italy. It's even cheaper than Ireland (never thought I'd say that) But, if you're happy staying well outside the main tourist areas, your daily budget shouldn't go up too much. Except, prosciutto is a lot more expensive than bratwurst.

I think Lee's comments about the $5600 budget and Liz's about a shift in audience are related. Yes, I think that travelling per RS books is a victim of its own success, more people, more competition, more cost, more demanding readers requiring somewhat better hotels than "the old days", all of which add up to a bigger budget. I guess I am still old school, I research, I plan, I usually have a half dozen hotel options in a small town picked out, depending on the mood, I may wait until I show to bargain, and it helps to have very low standards in regard to a room (it is for sleep, little else) In short, while the philosophy of travelling low key and local is best and low cost, it does not work for the hoardes of RS clients sometimes seen.

Hi Paul,

Just a comment on "it helps to have very low standards in regard to a room". Maybe I'm "out of touch" with what most consider a decent room, but I (we) have found that some of the most inexpensive places we've stayed (about 50 Euro for 2 with buffet breakfast) have been the best. Nice rooms w/shower and room balconies with beautiful views. Just need to do some research.

A few examples... our favorites in Bavaria and the Dolomites:

www.mayringerlehen.de

www.schwalbennestl.de

www.montanara.it

We wouldn't stay anywhere else even if a "hotel with all the amenities" was the same price.

Paul

Another example of a budget accommodation in Italy is Villa Elena in Varenna--we stayed there in March for 45 Euro per night. We had a bathroom, a terrace with a view of Lake Como, and it was right on the square in --a perfect location!

Maybe I am being dramatic in saying "very low standards" But the point I was trying to make is that I do not expect 4 star accomodations and service. If you stayed in a room in my house, the furnishings would be a little worn, the chair may not match the rest of the furniture, it wouldn't smell bad, but not smell sterile either; maybe a little noise and certainly some odd co-tenants. When I travel, the places I tend to stay are small and family run, and tend to be like my home as stated above. Based on some comments regarding places on this board...many have higher expectations. I too have stayed many places that have been fantastic, charming, romantic, cheery and low cost. I sense that many like to be safe in their choice, and while not always certain, paying more for lodging usually seems the safer option.

People should stay where they are happiest and most comfortable. There is no right or wrong. If someone wants to stay only in hostels, and that's what makes them happy, then they should. If someone wants to only stay in professionally run hotels with some extra amenities, then that's where they should stay. Neither one is wrong. While one or the other may not be right for you, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

What I sometimes sense from some posters on this board is that they think their way of traveling is right and any other way is wrong. And they will defend that belief. It's almost as if they're personally insulted if someone travels differently than them.

And that also includes types of bags, weight, dimensions, wheels, moneybelts, etc.

Thank you, Frank USA! Exactly my thoughts in other words, to each his or her own! the Graffiti Wall is supposed to be all about helping each other not judging whether or not if one way is the right and only way or not!

"the Graffiti Wall is supposed to be all about helping each other not judging whether or not if one way is the right and only way or not!"

You can almost bet that when the replies number greater than twenty, that there is some serious judging happening.

Hi Lee,
It may have been me who you indicated was judging you for not going to other countries. I apologize and hope that I didn't offend--it's just that from my experience I'm glad that I tried other destinations--I absolutely understand your desire to return to Germany and hope that you can use your saving from this trip for another trip very soon.

Back to the topic: In recent years, it seems that the least expensive counties to visit are Spain and Portugal; I'd put Germany and Italy in the moderate category; and France, Switzerland, and Ireland--(especially for meals) in the most expensive category.

Thanks Frank for pointing out what has become obvious throughout my short time going through these forums. A select few of the forum regulars come off as very narcissistic in their responses. Some of it is irritating, the rest laughable. I've just made it a habit of skipping their responses. 95% of the others actually add great advice through their own personal experiences and seem to want to help as opposed to being overly critical and condescending in their approach.

As for the original question... is Germany an inexpensive place to travel compared to other countries? Can that really be answered objectively? I've found 'to each his/her own'. It's as inexpensive or expensive as you want to make it. I've done it both ways. Whatever I have saved (or not so much) is what I spend. Personally, I've never thought I'll go to Germany because it's more/less inexpensive than Italy, Holland, France, UK or wherever. I go where I want to go because that's where I've decided I want to go. I plan accordingly.

You know, you CAN find good info on this board, especially on budgeting issues. But geez, you sure do have to wade through the "My way or the highway" attitudes.

Anyway, my 2 cents worth... which continues to fall in value w/ the dollar. ;)

I also think Frank brought up a good point. And Gary, glad to have you with us on this forum,good post.
One thing that gets on my nerves with a few people here, is to tell someone not to go someplace. Someone told me not to go to Milan, and it turns out that I love Milan!! We are all so different and we should never listen to someone that says not to go to a city because they didn't like it. But I feel many posters here are wonderful, and I enjoy visiting this forum.

I have to wonder if the last five posters (well, maybe not you, Lisa) are reading the same thread that I'm reading. I have seen poster say that they think that Germany is less expensive than other countries, others that say it is more, most say that the method of travel makes the biggest difference (possibly some countries are more conducive to lower cost travel styles?), but I have not seen anyone (except possibly Otter's "criticism" of staying outside of towns) being judgemental. Someone judged me for not going to other countries, but I did not take offense. (I go to Germany to practice the language, not because of the cost).

Everyone is free to spend as little or much as they want. I don't sleep on park benches, hitchhike, or dumsterdive to save money, but I don't feel comfortable in 5 star hotels, either. No one said that spending less money is the only way, just that certain styles of travel let you spend less. Sorry if some of you feel guilty about how much you spend. Maybe some of you have so much money that it doesn't matter what you spend, or maybe you only plan to go once and go first class. I envy those of you who have an unlimited amount to spend. Personally, I don't, so I prefer to spend less each time so I can go more times, but that is my preference. I was only wondering, since I don't go to extremes to save money, but seem to spend a lot less then predicted, if my choice of country makes a difference.

So, now, can we stop being judgemental about what we fantasize as being judgemental and get back on the subject.

Yes, Germany can be less expensive.

Planning my next trip. I'll be spending time in Paris, London and Berlin. Compared similar hotels. Paris and London are much more expensive than Berlin.

In general, smaller towns are less expensive than major cities.

But you also said it...people spend what they want to spend. So, really asking, "Is Germany inexpensive?" is like asking "Is Colorado inexpensive?"

The answer to all of these questions is the same--It depends.

And if you're looking for places to practice the German language in the Denver area, try these:

Denver/Boulder German Language Meetup

Goethe Club of Denver Meetup>

Denver German Language Meetup Group

I've spent most of my trips in Italy. When I was in Berlin last year, I did find it cheaper than the big cities in Italy. But I guess it's true it does depend on your lifestyle. I'm used to the simple lifestyle, so spending less does not dampen my trips. But over all, I did find Berlin anyway (I need to explore more of Germany) to be much cheaper than the cities in Italy.
I'm surprised to hear Ireland is expensive. On another forum, people say how much cheaper Ireland is. Well, someday I'll find out for myself when I do make it to Ireland.

Lisa, thank you for mentioning posters telling people not to go places. I have found that these are the people who want to be spoon fed their tourist sites, who do not want to explore a city or town, so if something isn't jumping up in their faces, then it must be boring there or there is nothing to see there. I thought Milan was fun and interesting too. For me, these are the real back doors to a country, not the big tourist sights, but the backbone of what a country and its people are. Places like Milan, Brussels, Dusseldorf, and yes, Frankfurt. These are cities where there are also fascinating things to see and discover if folks would try just a little bit harder.

My reply is NOT Germany specific, but rather general in nature, but I do like to add a few basic points to the conversation:
- major cities & touristy places are always more expensive, no matter the country
- things like LOCAL food, flowers or wine are really inexpensive, no matter where in Europe
- transportation is truly affordable if you get beyond Eurail passes & spontanious daytrips. Look into getting a bus/or train card for the WEEK, if you are staying more than a day. That's where the big savings are! Where I am, a ticket for a week is cheaper than 3 single trips, no matter if by bus or by local rail.
- eating out can be a challenge: except for special occasions think LUNCH for your big meal of the day! For ~ €6 you get a 3 course meal (soup, main course, dessert), order the 'Menu', these will be posted outside each inn or restaurant - just stroll until you find the ambiance + food that suits you. One of the greatest joys of eating European style!
More often than not, you will get huge portions of local food with local, seasonal ingredients, cooked fresh and lovingly, and not all that different from the evening selection!!! Even in the midst of Paris!
- stay away from 'American Style' hotels, stay in local B&Bs or at country inns! You might not get ice with your drink, and the entire place might not be smoke-free, but oh,the price difference!
- write your inquiries in good old business English, NOT translated by Google or Babelfish!! If your proprietors don't speak English, they will find someone to translate (I do it all the time for local businesses) for them! Do not send them gobblydegock nonsense like the above translation!!!!!!! You'll look like a fool!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot emphasize it enough!!!!
Hope this helps!

Here my translation of the Google translator, back into English, but as it would come across to a German speaking human:

'And, Frank (USA), believe I to know, the search for accomodations lower cost. It helps at reading non-English small town websites for the small town search, even though, when learn you a few catch-phrases, you can probably through you. Then I write emails in German, and you receive my answer in German. I found that humans that avoid, they rent a few rooms in your house, are less real, English to speak. but then, I value hostels can so cheap, and you can you book you online in English.'

Catch my drift??
Sorry Frank ;-))

I agree with others that Germany is generally cheaper for travel than most other European countries, especially in the east--Dresden and Berlin being cheaper than Munich, for example. Train travel, when planned ahead, is a particular bargain.
Food and drink and lodging, based on my experience, are also inexpensive in comparison to Britain, France, Italy, Croatia, Austria, and Scandinavia, but higher than Spain, Poland, and most of Eastern Europe.

I'm not sure that speaking the language is necessary to get the most inexpensive lodging in most of Europe. The cheapest non-hostel options are usually rooms in someone's home, which obviously aren't generally easily findable on the Internet. But knowing a bit of basic "tourist competence" in a language is all you need to negotiate for those. (And, even if the proprietor speaks no English, I've never had trouble getting the date-price information needed to communicate.) Two places I did find it useful to have a foreign language "template" for email communication with pension owners was Greece (Crete specifically) and Turkey (outside the main tourist areas.)

Ich brauche ein Einzelzimmer mit Dusche und WC für drei Nächte. Ich komme am 24 Dezember. Haben Sie eine offene Stelle? Wie viel kostet es? Ist das Frühstück im Preis inbegriffen?

Tell me Corrina..do you think an innkeeper would understand that? I wrote in English and had in translated by Google. (And I checked it both ways.)

What I was trying to prove was that you don't have to be fluent in a language to converse with an innkeeper to get a room or a good rate.

Rather than trying to do the above, I got lazy and had Google translate a serious paragraph that no computer translator could handle. It was a mistake. (Thank you so much for pointing that out.)

Or, should I just stick to visiting countries where I speak the language fluently? Will an innkeeper throw my letter out if it is not in perfect German?

Now, I won't mention that my years of working in hotels, restaurants, tour companies,etc. meant I received letters from non-English speakers requesting information, services, rooms, etc, in English that can only be described as comical. Yet, I didn't make fun of them, I understood what they wanted, and helped.

Some sounded like this: "To America I will be coming on 24 December. A room with shower and WC I will need. A room is available, yes? Airport Transportation you will also make available."

Should I have sent it back saying it's not correct English so I don't understand? Or perhaps I should have sent them a letter back saying "look how foolish you German speakers are trying to speak my language. How dare you expect me to help you when you can't speak English correctly."

No, I appreciated the fact they tried to write in English and helped. And guess what, innkeepers all over the world will help as long as they can basically understand what you are trying to convey.

And I don't think I would ever try to convey that initial paragraph I tried to translate. So for that, please forgive me. I have learned my lesson.

And like JER stated, I do try to get some basics of the language of the country I'm visiting (I'm a big fan of Pimsleur.) So, no, I can't speak any second language fluently, but I've never had a problem making myself understood.

I remember once taking a long train ride sharing a cabin with someone who didn't speak English. We spent the time teaching each other words in our respective language by using items we both had...camera, suitcase, coat, etc. It was fun.

The cheapest non-hostel options are usually rooms in someone's home, which obviously aren't generally easily findable on the Internet.

It might be more difficult with large city's website since
"rooms" are often located in a residential area, a ways outside the downtown commercial area
Cities often use a booking agency, which tends to focus on the major hotels,/li>
but I find that, in the small towns I like, the website usually include a listing of Privatzimmer. I have not had problems finding them where I go.

Lee...you win. Your way is right. Your way is the best way of traveling. (I think you've been waiting for someone to pat you on the back. So, I am doing so, figuratively.) And anyway, you have proven that you can get the best rates, the best deals, have the best conversations, by speaking one foreign language fluently and sticking to areas where they speak the language. You can even do better than Rick Steves when it comes to budgeting. Bravo.

The rest of us are wrong since we attempt to travel to places where we are not fluent, we attempt to talk to people in foreign languages in which we are not fluent, and we dare to think we can get the best of things and be understood--even though we are not fluent

What fools we are.

If traveling only to places where you speak the language fluently is where you feel most confident, where you feel most assured, the way you are happiest, then you should definitely continue to do so. I will no longer try to persuade you to do anything different as your choice is right for you.

But please, allow the rest of us, who don't feel a need to speak the language fluently to travel, who don't worry about every word we say being correct, continue to travel to many countries even though we are doing it wrong in your eyes.

I personally made the mistake of using an online translator which did not work well. This seems to be one of the biggest sins I could have committed. And to Lee and Corrina, and all the other German speakers I so deeply offended, I am so, so sorry to have tried to translate into your great language. I will repent the rest of my days.

It's funny, I've been to Germany, Austria and Switzerland. I speak a little German but nothing to write home about. It's true, I've never gotten the cheapest rooms (nor have I looked for them), I never stayed in the smallest towns (nor have I wanted to), yet I had a great time and met wonderful local people everywhere.

I guess I've been doing it wrong all along.

Frank,

Ich verzeihe Ihnen.

Paul

Danke......:)

and I didn't need Google to translate.

Oh Frank, I had to laugh about the letters from people to the hotel who obviously were doing English as a second language. I used to get alot of those too when I was managing a hotel over here. My favorite one was from someone who told me " I will be mounting the airplane at 12". Perfectly correct in a way, but funny all the same. I do think if a hotel gets a letter in a language that the owner does not speak well, they can always find someone who can help. Business is business after all and as they say in Germany, "Geld stinkt nichts!"

Frank,
I truly want to apologize to you!
It was just too good to be true, and I couldn't resist. Please don't be upset!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with not being fluent in German, French, or for that matter ENGLISH . .we all have funny stories to tell, and
NO, you will not be shunned, made fun of, or God forbid, discriminated, because you aren't fluent in the respective language!
You wouldn't believe how brutally I butcher(ed )your language at times!
Those translators actually work well with simply sentence structures, as you proved with your post, but they can't do syntax or intuit the right choice of words with multible meanings, leading to -
well, you know what ;-))
My advice is and will be: stay away from them, if you can.
Better is to use LEO.com to translate certain points that you might want emphasized.

Samma wieda guat?
Friends again??I really didn't mean to insult you!
my mischievous nature got the best of me . .

Fröhliche Weihnachten aus Österreich!

Hi Lee, I'm planning on going to Germany next summer and so was interested in your post. What airlines did you fly there on? I'm thinking of flying American Airlines since they have the cheapest flights I could find. Did you go through a travel agent or find your flight on the internet yourself?

Kathleen, I'm not sure what I did would work for you, since you are already in the eastern part of the country.

In seven trips, three times I used the non-stop Lufthansa flight from Denver to Frankfurt. It is usually not the least expensive, but it requires the least amount of time on the plane and no flight changes in the east. I don't have to leave Denver until about dinner time, instead of late morning.

The first time was NWA via Detroit. I will never do that again. First, they use Terminal Two, which is far away from the train stations, and, since they only have one flight a day and want to minimize labor cost at check-in, they only had two people to check in an entire 747. I arrived, as they recommended, three hours before flight time and spent two hours in the check-in line.

Once I flew Denver to Detroit on United and then Lufthansa to Germany. That was alright. Another time it was Delta to Stuttgart. At the time, anyway, there was only one direct flight from the U.S. to Stuttgart. A year ago, I flew USAir to Munich. That's another "never again". That flight connected through Philly. I had a long layover, and I don't like the airport; it's too big for changing gates. And the TSA workers in Philly were very rude. Right after I bought my tickets, one USAir flight to Munich was 11 hours late. I worried about a repeat of that for months.

I don't know if the checked luggage fee applies to flights connecting to overseas flights, but, on the domestic legs there are people obviously avoiding the check fee by bringing on oversized bags and the airlines do nothing about it. They might fill the overhead bins so I would have to check my regulation size/weight bags. I dread that since, in my first 5 trips to Eurpoe, my luggage was nearly delayed or completely lost three times.

Dear Kathleen,
you might also want to check Aer Lingus. I find that they consistently have some of the lowest fares, and I can only recommend flying with them, I find myself using them more and more often.
Dublin Airport has a lot of construction going on at the moment, but is no worse than many other airports I know, for transfers.

Another cardinal rule I have is never connect in Europe (sorry Corinna). Most trans-Atlantic flights get to Europe in the morning. Then with layover time and the connecting flight you get to Germany in the afternoon, instead of in the morning on a direct flight. Also, trans-Atlantic flights can be very late, so you might miss your connecting flight to the continent. Change in the U.S. if you have to, but fly directly to your desire destination in Europe.

I think the best airline for you might be Delta, since they have direct flights to Europe from Cincinnati.

Except for business flights decades ago, I have never used a travel agent. Eight years ago, I made my first flight to Europe in ten years. I found a fare on Cheap Tickets (?). After booking the flight I started wondering if I had gotten a good deal, so I called an agent and pretended I was just starting to look. She found the same ticket I had just bought, but for more including her commission. Then, she was so insistant that I buy it that I had to embarress myself and admit I was just price-checking.

I always check a variety of sources, Lufthansa and United's own websites, Orbitz, Expedia, Cheap Tickets, and Travelocity, at least. I always find one of them cheaper than the others. I have never found a consolidater (Kayak, etc) any less than the mainline websites, but I always check with them too.

One thing I would never do is purchase a "blind" ticket from someone like Priceline, where you have to buy the ticket before you know the schedule or airline. I just got a "fare alert" from one of the websites for a RT flight to FRA for $540. When I checked on it, it left Denver at 9:30 PM and arrived in ORD after midnight. The flight to Europe left just before noon - an eleven hour layover! Of course, I didn't take it. If I had gone to Priceline, I might have had to.

When I read Lee's last post (12/22) I found myself drawn to post a different point of view. Lee's rule is never to connect in Europe, to connect in the US if he has to. My personal rule has been exactly the inverse. Living on the West coast even morning flights to the East in the US are arriving in the afternoon, and many arrive at nite. That means any delays in domestic flights have had a chance to ripple thru the system. I've been on too many domestic flights that have been late to have trust that they WILL arrive on time. They may, of course, and probably the usually do.

But I ask myself what is the cost to me of missing the connection? If I'm standing on the Continent, there are many other flights and there's also the train if it comes to that. On the other hand, if I'm standing in JFK or Detroit or Chicago there's far fewer flights across the Atlantic. And since almost all the transatlantic flights I've been on lately have been full, my hunch is there aren't a lot of spare seats to put passengers who missed their connection. The way I see it, if I miss a connection once I'm in Europe I can still get to my destination, probably only a few hours late at most. I miss a flight from the US, it make take a day or more to get over. That has a much bigger impact to me.

So I'm willing to put up with the scheduling impact that Lee points out; when you arrive in Europe and connect its likely going to be the afternoon before you arrive at your final destination. And personally I'm ok with that, in fact I prefer it. I arrive in the afternoon with time for a little sightseeing, dinner, and then a nights rest to help get over jetlag and tiredness from traveling. So that's what I do; as Lee's post points out, some prefer the exact opposite.

Are you ready...Lee and Mike are both right. But here's one other ingredient to throw into the mixture:

Try to change in the host country of the airline you are flying.

Chances are, in the home country, you'll be changing at a hub and more than likely, if there is a problem, the airline would be able to find a back-up plane in case of mechanical problem of put you on a later flight should you miss the connection.

The one time I had the misfortune of transferring in Europe was a mistake, a flight was cancelled and I was rerouted through London. We arrived at 7-9 AM, London time, in Heathrow (midnight to 2 AM Denver time), and had to stay awake for the next 3-4 hours in the international lounge until our flight left at about 5 AM Denver time. It was excruciating; never again.

For Mike, maybe YOU should use a travel agent. I'm sure there are non-stop flights to a lot of cities on the continent from LAX. Or, try Denver or Chicago. The flight to Denver takes about 2 hours, so if you leave LA at, say 11 AM, you'll have over 3 hours to catch the non-stop flight to Frankfurt

Of course, if you are not going to Frankfurt, you'll have to change at FRA. On the other hand, it only take 4 hrs to Chicago, and there are plenty of flight to points all over in Europe leaving in the late afternoon or evening from Chicago, and plenty of flights they could put you on if you flight from LA is late.

Lee, thanks for the gratuitous insult about needing a travel agent. I used to have quite a high opinion of you, respecting your knowledge and helpfulness. Now I realize how mistaken I was about your character.

And I realize how mistaken I was, too, about your knowledge. Anyone that suggests flying into Chicago, of all places, to catch a connecting international flight has little familiarity with the US airline system and its performance. From an article about how they were trying to fix delays into Chicago: "O'Hare, the nation's busiest airport in terms of landings and takeoffs, also became the nation's most delayed airport. Only two-thirds of O'Hare flights have been on time this year. On good weather days air traffic controllers say they can handle 100 arrivals per hour. But controllers say between noon and 8:00 P.M. there are often 110 arrivals scheduled. " Yeah, Chicago. Good call, Lee.

FYI, the airport I fly to is FRA. My final destination has never been Frankfurt, so I connect there. I am lucky to have plenty of direct flights to FRA, and use that as my european hub.

To Kathleen,

In the past seven years we've made five trips to Germany. Only once did we have a direct flight - Newark, NJ to Frankfurt on Lufthansa.

Otherwise we've flown from NJ to:

Munich on Air Canada (via Toronto)

Munich on Swiss Air (via Zurich)

Munich on Air France (via Paris)

Munich on Lufthansa (via Frankfurt)

We had no trouble on any of these trips/flights. Which was best? I really can't say, they were all similar to me. I just like getting to where we're going with the least expensive fare I can find. Of course, the less stops, the less chance of missing a flight, getting you're luggage lost, etc.

We found www.travelocity.com to be pretty good. We've also booked direct through the airlines. Yes, there are cases when booking direct can be as cheap (or cheaper) as using the other websites. Always check.

Hope this helps.

Paul

Sorry you took offense, but connecting in the eastern U.S. has never been a problem for me. Once (out of 6 U.S. changes, 16%), I was an hour late into Detroit due to weather, but I made the connection. Two (out of 10 trans-Atlantic flights, 20%) have been an hour late into Europe. How many flights from LAX to Chicago are an hour late? When I was going to Munich I tracked the USAir flights for 2 months and they averaged over an hour late (Average, for two months).

Connecting in FRA when you are going to a small German airport not served by a direct flight from the U.S. would be reasonable, but stopping in the U.K. on the way to Frankfurt doesn't make any sense. I've flown to Europe 10 times lifetime. Four of those were non-stop, six with connections in the U.S., one of those in Chicago, and never had a problem. Of course, the airlines graciously provided me with enough time to allow for delays. It was boring, but normal awake hours, and thus not difficult to stay awake. However, four hours in the international lounge in LHR when I should have been asleep was a real pain. All things considered, I would rather spend four hours in Chicago in the afternoon allowing for a delay, then four hours in London in the middle of the night.

So, if you don't like Chicago, come to Denver.

Oh, dear, no. At O'Hare flights aren't delayed due to silly things like weather or too much air traffic. No, prized things like on-time arrivals are awarded to the highest bidder. So if your flight doesn't arrive on time it's only because your airline forgot to grease the wheel.

(sorry, couldn't resist being a bit cheeky...)