Invasion of the Foderites

Roy, Very interesting! I don't usually watch those particular travel boards, but perhaps it would be worthwhile to have a look.

Roy, You mean like Duck fans attacking your guy Cam Newton on Auburn boards? It is unfair, he didn't take a penny more than $200k.

I haven't noticed that much. I for one share the RS travel philosophy. In fact, without a Rick Steves, we probably would never have made our first (of many) trips to Europe. Paul

It doesn't have anything to do Fodor's or Frommers, nor does it have anything to do with teams of any sort. I think it simply has something to do with really poor manners. And oddly, something to do with Americans in Germany...

Sadly, trolls show up on all kinds of forums. (Though sports forums are particularly common troll targets.)

I may have missed some random comments on other threads, but I'm pretty sure the Rick Steves "Blue Book mob/cult" references alluded to here have nothing to do with board "trolls" as we know them. The comments more likely come from relatively familiar, long time posters here who seem to throw those swords out there whenever their personal travel preferences don't match the general "back door" philosophy. Obviously, there are other ways to travel & how you like to do it is no one else's business, but it does make a person wonder why they are here... I mean, who would go into someone else's house and pee on the floor?

No worries, there has been no invasion. The people here who refer to a RS "cult" are long-time posters. I have been on Fodors longer than I have been here and you can recognize people. (There are a number of us dual agents and we can tell who we are.) There are indeed people on Fodors who criticize Rick, but not the people who follow his travel philosophy. Most of it is aimed at his ive (rather than comprehensive) approach, and some say he advocates taking food from the breakfast buffet to make lunch. That is a common "urban myth" that appears on Fodors, thanks mainly to one person,who has not appeared here (you can recognize his style). Nor have I seen the people who use the "cultist" word here on Fodors. It's pretty easy to tell who is who, even if they change their names.

"when non-Americans visit the U.S., many are interested to see what it would be like to live here. They too want to get away from the main tourist sites and see how the people live." This is so true. I hosted a friend from Spain this past spring. I had previously visited him in Spain, where we saw things that I had never heard of, but which were important to him (how many of you can claim to have visited the very spot where King Favila was killed by a bear while out hunting 1000 years ago?). The places we went didn't come from a guidebook (in fact, RS says NOTHING in his Spain book about the part of Spain I was visiting). When he came here, high on his list of things to see was "a typical small town", "an American farm", and Route 66. At the end of his trip, he said he most enjoyed having dinner with my extended family on my sister's "American farm" and getting to ride in the tractor during planting, and attending a church service with us. (Just for the record, we also visited St Louis, the Lincoln sites in Springfield, IL, and spent two days in Chicago.) For both of us, much of the "value" of the trip came from doing those out-of-the-way things, going to the places that locals know by heart, and spending time with people going about their daily lives.

For better or worse, Rick's travel books are different than others. They are limited in scope, but go deeper into the locations covered. They spend more time on rural Europe than most guide books. They highlight places HE found to be unique and "back door" (which by definition makes them popular with his readers and no longer any secret - but that's hardly a sin). Most of all, though, his books are written with a specific travel philosophy in mind. There is even a page devoted to that philosophy in each book (usually the back page of the introduction). And his opinions of places are colored by that travel philosophy. People who like the books do so because the books fit them. I doubt many mold themselves to fit the book. It seems natural to me that this forum be populated by many of those who like the books, and that much of the advice given would be in line with what can be found in those books AND AUGMENTED BY futher travel experiences that these contributors have had. How could it be expected to be different? If someone comes along and - let's say - wants advice on their first trip to Europe by way of a week in London and a week in Paris, then they should expect to get some good advice for those cities. But they should also expect to be advised to take daytrips out of those cities or to insert other more rural stops along the way to get a more balanced view of life in Europe. If they decide against that advice, they should not me demeaned for it. But if they come back at the advisor with some nonsense about "cultish" devotion to a some "guru's" travel philosophy (or, god forbid, be labled a left-leaning America-hater) then, in my opinion, they should be called on it. And it's fair to wonder what drew them to this site to begin with.

Geez, why do I keep getting drawn to this thread? All the major European travel guides have a mixture of large cities, small towns, rural areas and day trips from large cities. Nobody here is saying don't use Rick Steves books or visit his highlighted destinations- I use his books for certain locations and will continue to. Just don't claim to be following an independent, back door off-the-beaten-path philosophy if your trip consists mostly of recommendations from the Blue Books. Do tell us, though, how you enjoyed your trip, and if you thought the recommendations were worthwhile. For the record, I've never stayed in a bad hotel recommended by Mr. Steves. Some of the towns he writes about I didn't think were worth going out of my way to visit, however.

I remember the trip when I first discovered Rick Steves. It was my trip to France. The last time I had been there was in the 70's and as a student. I had seen some of the shows on PBS and decided to try out his hotels. What I learned was that Rick's descriptions of hotels and restaurants were bang on. I could make a decision not just based on price and location, but on other aspectsthe host, size of rooms, quirkiness etc. I view Rick's guides as a starting point, which is what I think Rick would suggest. If you've not been to a country before, start with a blue guide and then branch out on your own. Although this is easier said to done when your trips are limited. If you truly think that this is the only time you'll get to Paris, then you probably do want to see the tippy top sights. But as we travel more and find, that you can get back, you find your own backdoors. This board should be about not only helping first time travelers navigate to the top sights, but also sharing our own backdoors. I can do that in Scotland. I have lots of backdoors there. I have fewer of these in the rest of Europe. We just need to not be overly sensitive, but also, each remember that sarcasm does not translate well in a written forum like this and doesn't always add to the discussion. It needs to be delivered in small doses. ; ) Pam

This has become quite a spirited and interesting discussion! I have a few more comments to add to my original reply..... On the topics of the "Blue Books", my opinion is much the same as Randy articulated. I've looked at a number of the other Guidebooks, but found that they didn't really meet my needs. My impression was that the content was somewhat "bland" and poorly organized and I put them down after only a few minutes. They just didn't "fit" for me. OTOH, Rick's books are logically organized to cover the sights most people from this part of the world (with limited vacation time and funds) want to visit. The content is reasonably accurate, they're updated every year, have reliable Hotel, restaurant and sightseeing information and above all they fit MY preferred travel style extremely well. On the topic of the derogatory comments on other Message Boards, I can only guess at the motives of the people who posted them. Perhaps they're annoyed that the other travel gurus don't get the same media exposure or loyalty as RS does? In any case, their comments are not likely to change the opinion of anyone that follows Rick's travel methods, so not sure what they hoped to accomplish? Cheers!

OK, I'm one of guilty parties. For the record, I don't post on Fodor's or Frommer's, although I own some of their books, along with some of the Blue Books and Blue DVDs. Both series have their strengths and weaknesses. I use the term "cult" somewhat out of hyperbole, but quite frankly..., let's face it, the guy's following sometimes seems cultish. Examples: Frequent verbatim quoting of the master's aphorisms ("Plan like you will come back." "I've cashed my last travelers check.", etc.). Defensive posturing when the master's wisdom is questioned. Referring to "ETBD" as "my Bible". Referring to him as ... well, "the master" or "guru". And every cult has at least one super-fanatic who gets thrown out for taking the religion too far... I think you all know who I mean. And this isn't just in these forums- keep your ears open in any of the smaller destinations covered in the Blue Books, and you'll overhear similar comments. There is, of course, nothing wrong with being a huge Rick Steves fan , although it can be funny to observe. EDIT: Bold text added because that line seems to have been missed in subsequent replies.

(continued...): I take issues on two points, however. One, claiming to follow some sort of independent minded back door philosophy, but in practice, only going with the herd mentality of the master's recommendations. Examples: I need recommendations for a daytrip out of Amsterdam, a spa bath in Germany, a bike trip in Belgium, and an Alpine destination. If you automatically answered Haarlem, Damme, Baden-Baden and the Berner Oberland, congratulations, you might be a member of the Blue Book Cult. If you answered Utrecht or Leiden, Aachen, Weisbaden, Bad Dürkheim or Bad Kreuznacht, Dendermonde or Sint Niklaas, Ehrwald, Oberstdorf or Engelberg, congratulations, you've done your homework, taken some risks and you've seen some true Back Doors(well, Back Doors, at least, to North Americans). None of these places are necessarily any better than any others (well, with the exception of Baden-Baden...), but depending on the time of year, budget, itinerary, and individual tastes, some may be more appropriate for a given traveler. Two, the subtle but persistent dismissing of those who would prefer to stay in luxury hotels or book package tours instead of staying in smaller mom and pop type places, as if one option was morally or intellectually superior to the other. I also notice that two of the most experienced true back door travelers on this forum, Ed and Lee, never claim to follow any sort of philosophy- they just go there and report back! Finally, the single best "Back Door" guidebook I have ever seen? Frommer's "25 Great Drives in Germany". Not nearly as fun to read as the Blue Books, but many of the recommendations are almost completely untouched by tourism.

I think people who make the mildly sarcastic or critical comments about the Rick Steves fans are reacting to the extreme devotion of some of those fans. There are occasional comments on this website about how "we" on this website travel the smart way or the right way or have some superior knowledge or travel tactics. I enjoy the Rick Steves books and shows and I continue to learn from the forum, but I find those fan comments annoying. I suspect the other criticisms that occasionally show up have to do with Rick Steves' limited range of travel in Europe. His books and shows highlight areas he finds most interesting to the average traveller. All travel shows have to limit their coverage, but some travel books are more inclusive so that they cover a wider range of travel sites. Areas covered in the books and chat in the forum tend to mirror each other so that questions on other sites get relatively few responses.

And then there are some who are just pleased to play the role of "agent provocateur" and then stand by and watch the fun. Head games.

Fans of Rick Steves follow his back door philosophy? Rick Steves does a great job of providing information on how to explore Europe's backdoors, and he uses several examples to illustrate his approach. There are thousands of interesting places to visit, many of them off the beaten path, but what gets a mention in this forum are a stock list of places - primarily the ones Rick Steves used as examples. I admire Rick Steves and his travel philosophy, but I don't see much of it reflected on this forum. Posters may be fans of Rick, but most don't put his philosophy to use.

There may be a Rick Steves cult out there, and it may be reflected more on Graffiti Wall, but I just don't see much evidence of it on Travelers Helpline. I see posts by people who visit sites in RS guidebooks in addition to other places on their itinerary and consider RS hotel/B&B recommendations in addition to other hotels & B&Bs and just as often choose one not in the RS book. In my own case, I recently asked about Bruges, a RS hotspot, because I have not been there before. On that trip, I will probably also visit Ghent, Aaachen, Bastogne, Vianden, Sedan, Verdun and Trier only the last two are given space in RS guides, and I have stayed in only one place recommended by RS in the past five years. That is typical of my travels. Maybe I am making a false assumption, but I get the sense that many other posters from the U.S. have similar experiences. It is obvious that some posters in Europe think otherwise. Who is right.

Well, we do have some people on this board who too closely follow the Rick Road. They believe they are following the philosophy but they are really just following the steps. But often we get a new poster who has 87 questions, and it's ok to tell them to take a deep breath and read ETBD. I read this forum every day and so I worry that I'm drinking too much KoolAid. For example, I have a tentative trip planned this fall, and had thought of going to Beaune, but I worry that it's too Rick-ish.

Karen, Its not too "Rickish". When we were there almost all the people we bumped into were Europeans. Now then, for all the folk who moan that people on this Helpline are followers of Rick Steves' philosphy and recommend places he recommends, can I ask a couple of questions??? First, who turns on the lights here? If this was an independent travelling facebook group that would be a valid moan. It isn't, and it isn't. Second, what's wrong with quoting something you have seen of you feel it answers the question best? Third, what's wrong with advocating a place that you have found meets your needs. I like the view across the valley of the Monch, Eiger and Jungfrau. There is nothing wrong with me saying that. I originally found the Lauterbrunnen Valley through RS. So what? I also like the Bruenig Pass, and many other bits of the Alps. So what? Must I always send somebody up to Kandersteg because it isn't in the book? What if I don't want to? As many things as we have on our plates, and as many things we could be doing, and we have to moan about this? I wish I had that much spare time. .... and don't forget to take some of that money you saved by coming to the Helpline and give it to Charity.

Until five years ago, I had never cracked a blue book. Rick Steves was a name I vaguely recognized because I would occasionally run into a PBS show of his while switching chanels on the tv looking for something else. Then we decided to take the children to England and I went to the library with great excitement & pulled Frommers and Fodors England from the shelves only because they were the travel books I had heard of before. I found them eerily similar, somewhat bland to read and visually, as dull as dishwater. I tried a few other books as well, including Lonely Planet (which is better). But the thing that all of the guide books got wrong, in my opinion, is that they attempted to cover everything and to do it without offering anything resembling critical opinion. The most frustrating aspect was that when I knew I wanted to do/see one of the things listed in the book, there was only minimal information on how to do it. Meanwhile, the book was filled with hundreds of pages of information on places I either didn't care to see, or wouldn't be near enough to get to. When I finally got around to reading the Rick Steve's book, it was exactly what I was looking for. It matched ME. I didn't "convert" to cultishly try to match IT. So call me derogatory names and misrepresent reality if that gives your personality a little charge, but there is no cult here. There is no religion here (what a bastardization of that word that is!). There are mostly only people who have a travel philosophy that is vaguely similar. continued...

"Third, what's wrong with advocating a place that you have found meets your needs." Absolutely nothing. Just call it for what it is- following someone else's good advice on a well-tread path, not some independent-minded Back Door.

continued... If there really were people who only visited RS sites trip after trip, that would be a shame. But do they deserve to be demonized? At least they are getting off their backsides and seeing a bit of the world instead of visiting Wallyworld for the 7th time. I am currently planning our first trip outside of Europe - to Australia and New Zealand. I have my Lonely Planet books at hand, and they are true encyclopedias of information. I'm glad to have them. But I have often wished for a blue book to use as a suppliment. As for lodgings, our preferences are hardly slavish to Rick there, either. Because we have children, we often use hostels for short stays and apartment rentals for longer stays. Neither of those options get much attention in his books. But we have used a few of the listings in his books, too. It seems reasonable to me to use the opinion of a person who has actually set foot in the place as a guide rather than doing a blind internet search. And walking into a town without reservations is not an option for a family with young children. So is that cultish behavior? There is another factor at play, here too; When James offers his tactful advice on Vianden, Luxembourg, he is commenting on something that is a mere 270 miles from his home. It's pretty easy to amass a list of "off the beaten path" experiences when Europe is at your own "back door". For most of us, visiting Europe is an uncommon occurance involving a long, expensive flight and precious vacation time. It makes little sense for most people to make that kind of investment and then wander like someone out for a Sunday afternoon drive, as idyllic as that might be. Many of the people here have similar tales to tell. But we are not all the same. Just look at almost any thread with more than a half-dozen posts and you will find plenty of disagreement.

I am a huge fan of Rick Steves, not because I follow his advice to the letter, but because I love his enthusiasm for travel. It's infectious. You won't find me in a bed and breakfast or in the Cinque Terre, but there is no doubt that I'm a devoted follower. On my coffee table right now is Frommer's Europe (with half the pages ripped out) along side Rick Steve's Rome. They co-exist peacefully. The problem with the Helpline (and the reason why I'm not a frequent reader/poster) has less to do with the actual advice dispensed and more to do with a small number of posters who bloviate quite a bit but provide not so much "help."

"It doesn't have anything to do Fodor's or Frommers, nor does it have anything to do with teams of any sort. I think it simply has something to do with really poor manners.
And oddly, something to do with Americans in Germany..." As long as you are on a roll Randy, you forgot to address this statement that you made earlier. Personally, I found this rude.

Roy, I don't see any cult members on this site either. I see a lot of people who like to travel, and many have strong opinions. For what it's worth, I loved the castle in Vianden. It may be my favorite castle I have been too. It's very large and seemed to have a little of everything. I wasn't trying to find a back door. We were in Bastogne and planned to spend two days with Henri Mignon, but he got sick. We spent one day touring around Bastogne, and on the second day we decided to drive down to Diekirch to see the Battle of the Bulge museum. I was looking for something else in the area to fill up the day, and Vianden seemed to fit the bill. It was a great day. I agree with Randy. I like Rick's books the best because they give opinions. On the other hand, they are limited in what they cover. I found Vianden in a Fodors guide. I always get Rick's book and at least one of the more comprehensive guides when I'm planning my trips. Now that I have a Kindle, I can take them both with me.

"On my coffee table right now is Frommer's Europe (with half the pages ripped out) along side Rick Steve's". Here's kind of a funny story to lighten the mood. I had three books on my coffee table- Rick Steves' Germany, Eyewitness Travel Germany and Frommer's 25 Great Drives in Germany. I came home from work a few weeks ago to find that my dog had completely ripped Rick apart. Either she loved Rick so much that she lost control over herself, or she was voting on which book to get rid of. Frommer's and Eyewitness Travel remained untouched.

I'm having a great laugh at this thread mainly because it is so ridiculous. What does it matter how anyone travels? If someone wants to follow Rick Steves verbatim, and that makes them happy, well, it's their time and their money. Why should it bother anyone else? If someone wants to NOT follow Rick Steves at all, or his philosophy, why should it matter to you? It's their time and their money. We all must travel in a way that makes us happy. Go to places we want to see. Skip those we don't. It's not a contest to see who found the cheapest accommodations in Paris, or who has the lightest bag. And just because someone does something differently than you doesn't mean you have to defend your way. If someone says they prefer their own bathroom, or don't like hostels, they seem to get attacked by those who believe the opposite? Why? Are they forcing you to change? No. It has more to do with ego than anything else. I have my way of researching, my requirements for a hotel, and my way of traveling. It doesn't matter if anyone else agrees or not, it's what makes me happy. Now, if someone asks for my opinion, I may give it. If they don't wish to follow it, that's their right. I don't get insulted. If someone comes here and says they hate Rome, they'll get attacked by the Rome lovers. But how does their opinion hurting you? is it stopping you from returning to Rome if that is your favorite place? Perhaps that same person liked a place that you hated? Rick seems to really enjoy art museums and cathedrals. Terrific. As for me, well, I'm cathedraled out. I've had enough of them. Does that mean I'm traveling wrong?

Frank II,
The question has nothing to do with different preferences for travel. I posted the question because there have been a number of cheap shots lately mocking others on this board as cultists. And they all seem to be coming from people who contribute very little beyond insults. Apparently, I am not the only one who has noticed this.

And I went beyond that to try to understand why anyone attacks anyone else if their preferred type of travel is different. I"ve only noticed a couple of references to "cultists" and those came from long term posters. But it still refers back to my original question. Why is anyone attacking anyone else? Or insulting? Or rude? We all have a love of travel. If you don't like what someone posts because it's different from what you would do, there are polite ways to say you do things differently and rude ways. It seems lately, many have taken the rude way. BTW, for those who get upset when they hear someone say they want to experience what it's like to be a local, guess what, when non-Americans visit the U.S., many are interested to see what it would be like to live here. They too want to get away from the main tourist sites and see how the people live.

I'll admit to being part of the RS cult. My husband and I jokingly refer to him as St. Rick because no matter what, we end up using his books every place we go, often use his hotel and restaurant recommendations and even his luggage. We are huge fans and study his guidebooks before and during each trip.

I don't really give a rat's rear bumper about how or why anybody else travels. What stumps me is the way they go about it. And some times it darn near is a self-perputating cult. Look at the gist of the vast majority of the questions posed here: 'how do I hook these three big cities and five RS gems into a ten-day trip', 'where can I get a guide/podcast/etc of/to this place', 'which of these two RS hotels is better' or 'woe is me, all the RS hotels are full, maybe I should just stay home' Then look at most of the answers from the folks that have only made a trip or two and 'just loved .....'. It's the same few places and techniques over and over again. What ever happened to studying your tail off before you went somewhere? Reading history, religion, politics, and geography so you know how things fit together. Even it it's only a few other guide books, you can pick up a heck of a lot of ideas - - for pete's sake, the Michelin Greens cover more in each country than you could see in a year (and have a pretty good ranking system of what's worth seeing). I've been lucky, in a way, since I saw a few of the RS spots before he was born, a lot more before he wrote his first book, and most all before I even heard of him. He's knowledgeable, his perspective is interesting, and he writes well. (He could stand to hire a decent cartographer since his sketch maps stink.) I have problems with some of the places he touts as being charming or most representative of anything or even worth seeing - - so what?

The potential cult problem is that too many people feel that the only things to see, or the only way to do things, is in the RS manner and that this self-perpetuating myth can keep getting passed along from one set of travelers to another and that the only path through europe will be the one that connects a bunch of RS dots. Fortunately there is a slew of knowledgeable, pig-headed posters that add additional perspective. The problem is that that folks on their first few trips need to realize that there is a whole lot more out there and not be blindered by having only consulted one source.

In the course of my trips I do consider myself knowledgable in traveling, absolutely when it comes to Germany and getting around there. Other places I would not presume to offer advice. Of course, one is free to follow RS "back door" travel philosophy, his travel agenda, method of traveling/accomodations, either slavishly or partially as a fan or adherent. That is entirely up to you...it's your choice. I don't. I don't use Foder or RS, have looked Frommers to get suggestions, but generally out of my price range. If I designed a six week to 2 month trip for a first timer to Germany, using mainly or exclusively public transportation, on a more or less budget level, my trip and priorities would turn out quite different for that 2 month trip from that what RS suggests. As for pig-headed in travelling, I'm working on it.

I enjoy reading this forum, and I can appreciate Ricks philosphy towards travel, but on those occasions when I visited his recommended places I was often disappointed. I hated Rothenburg, found Haarlem boring, and think the Romantic Road is the biggest rip-off in the history of tourism. So what? Ricks practical travel advice is sound and very useful, but I agree with Ed, that studying and doing the research on possible destinations that appeal to me is both fascinating and useful. Europe is so, so much more than the handful of places Rick reccommends, and there is so much information available - either on-line or in other guidebooks that I think it would be short-sighted to only use one resource when planning a trip. I've visited some great places that are largely untouched by tourism this way. I enjoy hiking and somewhat low-key travel activities, dislike museums and organised tours, so I choose my own destinations and activities usually not covered in Ricks books. But when I needed to compare rail fares and passes, Ricks advice was very helpful. His reccommendation of Rothenburg...not so much.

I visit Fodors often. Pieces of it are helpful. Rick Steves has a ton of information for beginners and is geared toward the standard two-week vacation most Americans plan for. The style of travel on Fodors is completely different. The hotel and restaurant choices are four star or better. Private drivers and private guides are the norm. Often there is a smugness on Fodors about posh travel - which means they look down on RS. (I think Voltaire joked about becoming refined enough to loath everything.) I travel like a Lonely Planet person only with more mature tastes and interests. I prefer longer vacations with stays at budget hotels, pensions or hostels while eating at street vendors or buying supplies at grocery stores. Not one of the sites suits me perfectly. RS site is the easiest to navigate, which may be what keeps me interested.

Is that anything like a Sodomite?

Swan, " My first trip to Europe was approximately what ETBD covers on their "Best of Europe" tours. I used Frommer's "Europe on 5$ a day." I traveled for a month and the entire trip, including flight and Eurailpass, was under $1000. More like $800. The year: 1969." Wonderful.... I took a trip through Germany, Austria, (bit of Italy) Monaco and France, then Belgium and England in 1972. 3 months. Flight was LH New York Kennedy to Munich, BA Heathrow - Kennedy. Youth Hosteled, stayed with friends (relatives in England), but mostly slept on trains. Youth Eurailpass. Cost for over 3 months - including airfare - I had change from $1000. Thanks for helping me remember that year.

Just a small comment: Several posters are now referring to the RS books as the "blue guides" or "blue books." The title "Blue Guides" rightfully belongs to a very extensive series of comprehensive guidebooks. If the RS guides provide introductions to an area for novice travelers, Blue Guides are among the books of choice for more extensive travels.

Got it. So henceforth, "Blue Book" = Rick Steves, "Blue Guide" = Blue Guide.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Rick's books were extremely valuable to us on our first couple of trips, and I'll even admit that we were among those walking around town with a death grip on the blue books. We stayed in his recommended places, ate in his recommended restaurants, and saw the recommended sights (and going early if he said so). We also ran into a lot of other people doing the same thing everywhere we went. It did feel a bit like a cult. My first trip to Europe was flying to Paris to visit a friend for a week. I checked out a bunch of books from the library and was quickly overwhelmed with the sheer amount of stuff to do and see there. Luckily, my friend pared it down for me. After that, I used Rick's books to do that. Most of us on this board have traveled to Europe many times for many years. Just remember what it was like on your first trip or two. I remember feeling a bit like a fish out of water. Rick's books gave us that knowledge and confidence that was much needed. Funny story that made us feel more "in-the-know" on an early trip we ran into a young couple at Linderhof who were there with a tour. They were completely amazed that we did this trip on our own and were asking questions about how we rented a car and knew where to go (it's all in the book, people). Then we ran into them again at Wieskirche the next day. Yes, it's a bit in the middle of nowhere, but it's also in all the guidebooks. So we knew they had never opened one when their jaws dropped and they asked "how on earth did you guys find THIS place?"

Nope. "Blue book" has already been nabbed by the used car peddler lobby. They'll be on our backs next. For a compromise in correctness and simplicty of typing we should use, for example: 'Rick Steves, Spain 2005, Avalon Travel Publishing, Printed in the U.S.A. by Wozalla Publishing, ISBN 1-56691-884*ISN 1551-8388' Among friends, we might just call it '8388'. This will become tedius in refering to the whole series - - and repeatedly typing 'ditto' is boring and would probably invoke the ire of the Rush Limburg lobby. During the course of the day, I'll try to come up with a suitable generic name for Mr. Steves' entire body of work.

How about just calling Rick's books "RS BOOKS"? I've never used the Fodor's books or their website. My first trip to Europe was approximately what ETBD covers on their "Best of Europe" tours. I used Frommer's "Europe on 5$ a day." I traveled for a month and the entire trip, including flight and Eurailpass, was under $1000. More like $800. The year: 1969. When I happened upon a book called "Europe Through the Back Door" by a then unknown (to me) Rick Steves sometime in the 1980s, I recognized a travel philosophy similar to Frommer's. A number of years later (maybe 1999) I saw Rick on public TV pitching donations to my local station. I discovered then that he had a series of books and tours. Since then, I've bought numerous ETBD books and taken 7 RS tours. At home I look at the other books: Lonely Planet, Rough Guides, Let's Go, DK..... But I travel with the RS books.

Roy-Good choice and suggestion to see Sedan...I didn't think anyone would go there...I am glad I was wrong. It's doable from Paris by train but for that place a car is going to be much more convenient. It's one site I still have to see.

Swan, Your reference to "Europe on $5 a Day" brought back memories for me as well as Nigel, and, I suspect, for others on this Board. In the summer of 1968, that book served as my guide on a journey from Amsterdam to Vienna and back to Luxembourg for the trip home on an Icelandic DC3. That was in the days before credit cards, so you really had to budget carefully. That journey involved a lot of hitchhiking, staying in hostels and buying food from street vendors to save money. I could never travel like that now, but that summer was the best of my life.

Oh yes, love the reference to Europe on $5 a day. ; ) I was a student in southern Germany for two terms (six months) and we had one copy for all 35 of us. We just didn't think about what was in guide books. We went to the hostel and asked what everyone else was doing. Of course, in Athens, I knew I wanted to see the Acropolis and the State Museum, but locals told me what else to visit. I still quake when I remember going to Paris Easter weekend with no reservation. (I stayed at one of the Hostels and it was appalling.) We also had a copy of Michener's book THE DRIFTERS and that served as a totally different guide! Now, of course, I do lots of research. ; ) Pam

Bunch of big spenders! In 1969 I was on my second trip to the orient - - cost zero - - accommodations, food, and incidental medical services provided by employer.

Ed, I hear that deal is still available-but now it's all beach with no ocean.

Yes, very true that in the late 1960s and early 1970s "Europe on $ 5 a Day" was the guide. And it could be done if you stayed in hostels, some of which I stayed at in West Germany went for 50-60 pfennig (Bremen, Münster/Westfalen). Since they served dinner, you could get by for less than a buck that day. You could almost always get a bed at the DJH hostel, but I did see kids turned away. Spur of the moment traveling...just hit the hostel. I agree you needed to budget closely back then...no credit cards or ATMs, you made sure you had enough Traveller's Checks. The Eurail 1st class Pass and the Youth Pass 2nd class, 2 months of unlimited travel allowed you the flexibility of hopping on and off, taking night trains without reserving, and at the German train stations good, cheap German food could be gotten at the Bahnhofsgaststätte...they're gone now. What's that song...Those Were the Days??

For first timers (in particular), I will continue to 'cultishly' push the RS books, especially "Europe Through the Back Door". I have found them to be the best for hand-holding the first- (or second- or third-) timer on their travels. They are the 'how-to' of European travel. From your posts over the years, I know that many of you never wanted (but perhaps needed!) hand-holding on your first trips. However, for many people, flying (for the first time, sometimes) to Far Away and Very Foreign Europe is a HUGE curb to step over! "I read you shouldn't wear __", "On TV they said credit cards don't work anymore in Europe", "Where do I put my moneybelt?", etc. Some of us are long-distance runners, some are sprinters, some like to stroll, but there are MANY who don't even know where to buy the shoes...we were all there once. (cont.)

(cont.) I also don't see any problem with recommending any of his 'country' books, including his itineraries ("Europe in 21 Days", "7 Days in __"). It can be very difficult to research alternate towns and cities to visit when you have no benchmark to compare them to. Rick picks places that are well-prepared to receive the traveler (such as, served by trains). Overrun and trampled half to death? Sometimes. But still great places to visit. Just because you didn't like them doesn't change that. After your first trip, you have a much better feel for your likes and dislikes - you just have to get there and get your feet wet! And RS is THE BEST for TEACHING you HOW to do just that. (I still mourn for the days when he 'taught' in his programs...now they're mainly just travelogues, but I still like them) Anytime I'm traveling to a 'RS' place, esp. if covered by a 'city book', I'm definitely going to see what Cousin Ricky says about it first...but now I also do tons of my own research, too! I'm Eileen, and I'm a Ricknic...sort of...

Yeah, on $5/day it was cheap hostels, $1 meals, lots of walking, and many train rides. I didn't make one train reservation, just hopped on a train for the next destination. I spent several nights in an 8-seat compartment on a train. I was a lot younger and could sleep almost anywhere then. Those were the days! I'd never want to do it again. This just points out what a younger person can do, and what an older person would consider torture.

I wonder if die-hard Samantha Brown fans are treated poorly online by cultist followers of, say, Burt Wolf. It could happen.