Ideas for 10-12 days for 2 adults and 2 college students Mid May ‘18

My family has mentioned interest in Italy, Spain, Germany, or France.

Pick one and concentrate on that country. Spain is not in my wheelhouse, so I will leave it others to advocate for Spain. Italy and France are No 1 and No 2 in tourist visits (I forget who's on top) for very good reasons.

For Italy, the classic Rome-Florence-Venice is easy to do. With 12 days, add in a Tuscan hill town for diversity.

For France, Paris and then a couple of other locales like Burgundy and Alsace.

Germany is great, but I'd pass on it for this trip. German's love going on vacation in France and Italy, so that might be a slight indication.

Don't go so far as you will need to do a night train. They are not all they're cracked up to be. And do plan at least 3 nights each stop and have a hotel booked. Paris and Rome can use 4 nights. make sure you see the items on your bucket list by going through a guide book. For budget, on top of airline tickets, about $500/day should keep a roof over your heads, bellies full (of excellent food), and moving around and seeing the sights.

I agree with the above poster that you'll have a much more relaxing trip if you focus on one country. (You can do multiple countries, of course, but a lot of your time will be spent in transit from point A to point B.)

I'd book an open jaw (multiple city) air ticket to maximize your travel time. Fly into your starting point. Fly home from your ending city. It will save you having to backtrack.

I'd make a rough itinerary and start looking at hotels in those cities. If they are filling fast, then make reservations before you go. Whatever you do, make sure that you have a reservation for your arrival hotel.

What you see and do depends a lot on your personal interests. Art? Food? Hiking? Classic sites of Europe?

And your budget will also depend on the types of places you like to stay and how well you like to eat/drink. There are always ways to go cheaper or more expensive.

Perhaps share a few more details about the likes/interests of everyone? Then people here can offer better suggestions that are more tailored to your possible trip.

I'm with Sam...a Venice Florence and Rome trip would be great for the amount of time you have.
Fly into Venice as most likely you would have to fly into a European Hub city and then take a hop to Venice. (Tell us where you live and what major airport you are near will help us help you.)

4 Nights in Venice
morning train to Florence spend 3 nights
morning train to Rome for 5 nights.
Fly back to on a non stop flight to the USA.
this is a 12 night 13 days trip not counting the overnight flight to Europe.

Adjust nights as you learn more about these cities and pick the sights you want to see. In Italy there are many sights to see. See the ones that interest you and your kids. Go on Rick's web site and view all of his Italy Videos to help plan your sights. Get his Italy Guide book.

As Sam commented a night trains is not what it is cracked up to be....ever.
If you just do one country there would not be any need for that.

AS is said often on this forum....slow down and enjoy. You will go back. So there is no need to try and see everything in one trip.

Read Rick's book about how to figure out a travel budget while in country. It will all depend on how you want or need to travel.

Sorry, but your questions are too wide ranging to give sensible answers based on the information you have provided. You haven't provided any details of your interests etc.

As others have suggested, pick one country. There is enough of interest in the 4 countries you have mentioned to keep you occupied.

1. Decide exactly how long you will have on the ground and assume that day 1 will be spent getting over jetlag.

2. Which city depends where you are flying from as to ease of connections. Open jaw tickets are useful if you are covering large distances, but if, for example, you decide to go to Paris and the relatively close Normandy, then a return from Paris would be most sensible.

3. With four adults, an apartment may make more sense than two or three hotel rooms. If you decide where you are going, then book your accommodation as soon as possible.

4. There aren't that many night trains and I haven't found anyone that has ever had a good night's sleep on them, so I wouldn't encourage this option.

5. Depends where you go! Don't base this on what others are interested in, opt for something that interests your family.

6. How much can you afford?

I think that you need to decide WHERE following some of your own independent research as a priority, then some of your other questions will be easier to answer.

1. Figure out exactly how many days you have on the ground. Count nights in Europe - 2 nights = 1 day, 9 nights = 8 days. You can't count your arrival day because you'll probably be in a jetlagged haze and won't be able to see/do/enjoy much at all. And unless you have a late night flight, you can't count your departure day. If you have 7-8 days, you're best off with 2 stops. Increase to three if you have more. Or choose one place that has lots of day trip options.

2. Whether you fly round-trip or open-jaw depends on which places you choose.

3. Yes. You have specific hotel needs, presumably either a 4-bed room (rare) or 2 rooms, one of which has twin beds (not a given in most of Europe). Someone suggested apartments. Drawbacks of apartments include: limited check-in, check out time windows, limited access to local information.

4. No. It can mean a really bad night with little sleep and that will ruin the next day, maybe two.

5. See the things that most interest your family. Don't hesitate to split up into pairs or even a single and a 3-some. Don't force everyone to trek through a museum for hours or to go zip-lining.

6. Basic travel advice is figure out how much stuff you need to take with you, then take half of it. Figure out how much money you need and double it.

Looking at a map of Europe, it is tempting to try and see a whole bunch of these cities that you've heard about all your life. But time is precious, and the more you spend in getting from one place to another eats up your vacation by sitting around airports or rail stations and getting from one hotel to the other. Night trains sound romantic, but they are not, and there aren't that many any more.

Your questions really point you to needing more guidance than you can get from a few answers from random strangers here in a web forum. It would help you to read a good guidebook on European travel in general, and the places you pick in specific, to help focus your questions. There's actually a ton of good information here on this website, if you click the links on the menu on the upper left of the page. What to see and what to budget are very complicated questions.

If you've never been before, nailing down the logistics of how to get around, picking hotels, tickets to museums, etc., can be maddening. A tour can make that easier, in case you hadn't considered that. Freeing you from the need to figure these things out, can alleviate a lot of stress.

But if it were me and my family, and a first time for all, I think Italy (V-F-R) is the best choice, and second would be London-Paris. Dont try and do more or you'll be exhausted and not excited.

Luckily for you, Rick Steves has written a book that is specifically designed to help you. It's called Europe Through The Back Door. Get a copy (either buy one or borrow it from your library) as soon as possible, and have everyone in your family read it right away.

This book will give you the "nuts and bolts" of how to approach a European trip. Then, I agree with everyone else about limiting your destinations, and not trying to do too much. I only get 10 nights in Europe on my trips, so I pick one small area (usually one country, but sometimes two countries IF they connect well - many don't). Do check connections before getting too attached to an itinerary. Many places that look close on a map have lousy connections (Spain and Portugal is a classic example - it's surprisingly difficult to get from one to the other).

It's very important to go where YOU want to be, not just to a place others consider a "must see," or just because it's cheap, or because it will impress your friends. When my mother had the opportunity to travel after many years of obligations that prevented her from traveling, I took her the first year to Istanbul (and a few other places in Turkey) and the second year to Berlin (with a few days in Dresden and Görlitz). These were where SHE wanted to go at the time, and she still speaks fondly of both trips.

With four of you, accept now that everyone will have to compromise. Everyone should have some say in their personal must sees, and accept that in return for getting their way some of the time, they will be going to other things that are not their first choice. I also agree with the point above that you can split up for parts of the trip. You will want to investigate cell phone options; if everyone has a cell phone that will work in Europe, it makes splitting up much easier.

Multi-destination itineraries are efficient. Fly into one city, out of another, save the time and cost of backtracking to the arrival city. But you must use a multi-destination search function, found on many airline and travel agency sites. These are not a pair of single tickets.
Forget about night trains. They are becoming less common. Stay awake during the day and enjoy the views. Stay awake all night and see nothing, probably can't sleep anyhow, and spend the next day pooped. Not worth it.
Book ahead. Lose flexibility; save money; save the time and hassles of searching for accommodation (or whatever) when the no-vacancy and sold-out signs are up and you don't speak the language.
Read the destinations advice on this and similar websites first; then start planning with specific questions. Top left of this page, Explore Europe.

1. If we have 10-12 days starting in mid May, where do you suggest?

Too broad a question as we all have different favorites but as others have suggested, stick to one country. I'll go with Italy as it's my fave, is not difficult to travel, and the "Holy Trinity" (Rome, Florence, Venice) is a good plan for first-timers with the amount of time you have.

1. What city should we fly into to start the journey? Should we choose the same city to fly out of?

To save time-wasting backtracking, you want to fly into one city and out of another. Venice>Florence> Rome is the usual recommendation as international flights out of Venice can be uncomfortably early in the morning.

1. Should we try to plan the number of nights in each place so we have a hotel?

Absolutely. May is High Season in much of Italy and other cities in Europe and you're already a little late in the game for booking. You also do not want to waste time wandering around a strange city with your luggage looking for a place to stay. Pre-booking allows you to know precisely where you will be, how much it will cost, and what to expect as far as facilities, such as an elevator (those can be rarer than not), breakfast and whatnot.

1. Should we try and plan a night train ?

No, at least not for the 3 cities mentioned as they are not far enough apart to need them, and I wouldn't recommend it for further-flung locations either for reasons already listed.

1. What should we make sure to see?

Get a guidebook and spend some time with it. It's THE best way to make your list as everyone's interests are different. In fact, a guidebook will help you with some of your other questions.

1. What kind of budget should I plan for?

Another too-broad question. It largely depends on how much you want to spend per night for accommodations, buying advance train tickets per on-the spot, what you want to spend on meals, etc.

Planning a trip involves quite a lot of homework so you learn where to stay, how to get around, how to save money (if that's a consideration), how to GET money abraod, and generally how things work. Homework of this sort doesn't appeal to everyone so if you find putting an indie plan together isn't for you, you might want to consider a package tour that takes care of the bulk of the details for you. My husband I are independent travelers (so far) so we haven't taken a tour but this Venice>Florence> Rome combo has been very positively reviewed among people who've done it.

https://www.ricksteves.com/tours/italy/venice-florence-rome

If Italy isn't top on your interest list, then take a glance at the tour offerings for other countries.

https://www.ricksteves.com/tours

Have a family meeting and hash it out until you get a consensus on one country. Then decide on not more than three locations -- you will be surprised at the amount of time you will lose relocating. It's not just the actual travel time, it's also the time lost packing up, checking out, getting to the train station, finding the new hotel, checking in, unpacking, and etc. Since Italy has been mentioned by members of the family, consider flying into Venice. After Venice you can do Florence, finish up in Rome and fly back from there. Definitely plan the number of nights in each location and secure hotel reservations.

Hi Kerry,

You've had great advice so far, and depressing as it may seem to hear, you will note that all of us, from different places and with lots of different experiences between us are saying pretty much the same thing.

Are you talking about just less than 90 short days away, May 2018, or do we have a year to help you with this - May 2019?

Have you and the family - because this will be family decisions - looked at the dozens of videos available on this website? Short 10 minute ones on specific places and longer full 30 minute shows on more general trip type stuff and countries? If so, which ones make you and the young ones go oooh and aaah? Which ones don't do anything for any of you?

Is the night train to help lengthen the trip, or does one of the group have an idea that they really want to do one "for the experience"?

Oh my gosh - I've just seen the answer to one of my questions, and it is in the title of the thread. We only have 90 days to get you an itinerary that everybody likes, get airfare, get hotels or apartments, and get all 4 of you up to speed. Tall order. Is everyone onboard?

First, really truly, is some speed reading for everybody, and watching videos. If you come up with questions we all will pitch in and help find the answers. This will have to be 2- way, preferably with everybody on your end doing their bit.

I don't mean to be sounding frantic but you are really late to be at this stage in the planning. We can do it, and have done it before but we need to get on the horse.

As this is your first (and only) post - where are you? Are you near one of our Travel Groups which meet monthly in many cities? If so they can really help.

Finally - and this is a delicate question, and all answers are Ok so long as we understand. Your last question about budget. Of course we know nothing about you or your family or financial situation. Given that you are late to the party are you willing to spend a little additional money to achieve your goals and perhaps short circuit some obstacles? Or do we need to look for minimal cost regardless?

I'm sure we can help all 4 of you have a really memorable trip....

We just were in your situation last year and chose to spend 11 days in Spain. We had an absolute blast, and Spain is great in May. We have driven all over Europe, and I have to say Spain was the easiest place we have ever driven. Amazing road system, very, very little traffic, and everything is well signed without the goofy laws of say Italy. Here was our route:

Day 1: Madrid
Day 2: Toledo
Day 3-4: Granada
Day 5: Malaga/Ronda
Day 6-7: Seville
Day 8: Cordoba
Day 9: Salamanca
Day 10: Segovia
Day 11: Madrid

We made stops in some great little towns, including some hilltop towns along the way. We loved Merida, Ubeda, La Frontera, etc. along the way. We found the people to amazing, culture to be so very different from place to place, prices to be affordable (especially in May) and things to do endless. Highlights included visiting the Alhambra, the beach in Malaga, bullfighting museum and gorge in Ronda, the flamenco in Cordoba, Plaza de Espanol in Seville, and the Prado museum in Madrid. The FOOD was so FUN! Tapas rock! We had 2 adults and 2 teenagers. This is a trip I'd highly recommend. Happy planning!

Forgot to answer your budget question. We did it all - staying in nice but not ritzy places for $6,000 for four. This included everything... air out of Minneapolis, hotel, food, admissions, transportation, souvenirs, etc. Hope this helps.

you need to finalize your destination ASAP so you can make plane reservations-it may not be easy to do for four flying together.

We have driven all over Europe, and I have to say Spain was the
easiest place we have ever driven. Amazing road system, very, very
little traffic, and everything is well signed without the goofy laws
of say Italy

Just to mention, driving isn't a necessity in Italy and is not even a benefit, depending on where you want to go. They have an efficient, affordable train system that can get you from many A's to B's quickly with no "goofy" traffic laws to have to deal with. We love the Italian trains, and not having to acquaint yourself with traffic laws at this late date would be one less thing to have to do homework on.

1) I'd pick either Italy or Spain for this one since you are traveling in May and it's a good time to see either of those countries without it being insanely hot. With just 10-12 days, pick just one country and limit switching cities/hotels to no more than 3x max.

2) Avoid flying roundtrip in/out of just 1 city and fly open jaw so you don't incur the cost of backtracking to original point of entry and you don't waste time.

3) Traveling as a group of 4, unless you are willing to stay in a hostel dorm room, I'd say lock down your hotels. This is especially so if you are going to require 2 or 3 hotel rooms for you, husband, daughter and son, or you are trying to cut costs by cramming 4 adults into a single hotel room (quads and "family rooms" at hotels tend to be limited and booked well in advance by other families traveling together).

4) Just my opinion, but no. Someone in your group will inevitably find the night train a lousy option to get any decent rest. Sure, you are avoiding the lodging cost of a single night in a hotel by being on a night train, but it will "cost" someone by making them feel exhausted the following day.

5) No one can help answer this when you haven't even gotten beyond identifying 4 big countries as the finalists. This is what guidebooks, Google and a family meeting are for. Don't want to invest in a guidebook just yet, get to the library and borrow guidebooks on all of these countries and maybe that will help you decide where you want to end up. Your children are now adults, and they should be vocal about what they want to see (particularly the 22 year old who is getting this trip as a present). If this was my family, I'd let the 22 year old name which country he wants, select 3 base cities or towns and then put everyone (him included) in charge of developing 3 full days each of the total itinerary.

6) Your comfort level, preferred lifestyle, travel partners and financial resources often determine your budget. What kind of lodging are you used to staying in - luxury, mid-range, budget? What's your usual dining habits when you travel within the U.S.? Do you splurge on fancy sit down restaurants nightly considering it part of the travel experience? Or are you the types who just grab some cheap fast food to fill up and go?

still here, KLK?

What about flying into Marseile and out of Paris? That way you have options of seeing things (obviously not all of these things within your time frame) on your way like:

• The Riviera (I like Villefranche the best...quaint)
• Arles - has an ancient Roman amphitheater with bull games - not bull fights - that are a lot of fun. No animals harmed, and the audience seems to cheer for the bull.
• Provence - see the Pont Du Gard aqueduct - massive and in a beautiful park...you can even go swimming in the river that flows under it or rent a canoe
• Side trip (if you have a car) to Carcassone - the medieval walled city - stay overnight there to get the most out of it
• Side trip (in the other direction) to Annecy or even Chamonix in the alps. Annecy has the beautiful lake. Rent a sailboat. We did. Lots of fun. Chamonix is great for the cable car ride to the top of the Aguille de Midi and views Mont Blanc. Hikes available too.
• Onward north to Burgundy - wine country and bike rides, if that appeals at all.
  
• Back to Paris and boat rides on the Sienne, amazing croissants on Rue Cler, Napoleon's tomb and the museum there is one of the best I've seen if WWII stuff interests your kids, watching the Eiffel Tower twinkle on the hour at night, climbing to the top of the Arc de Triomphe for great views of Paris, dinner in Montparnasse tower for an even better view of Paris, the Louvre, and don't miss the Fat Tire Bike Tour at night. My teenage son loved it.

You could do it the other way around but I think Paris is best enjoyed at the end of a trip. Have fun!

Thank you for all of the great advice. My job went crazy this so here's what I know now- my daughter is taking German and wants to go to Germany. Is there one other country it makes sense to add on or just stay in Germany the whole time ? I'm in the Carolinas- does anyone know the best us city and best German cities to fly in and out of? Thank you! Kerry

American has nonstops from Charlotte to Paris and Frankfurt, and Lufthansa has nonstops to Munich. They are all in the $1500 range. You can get better prices ($1100-$1200) by taking a connections through JFK or ATL.

I'd say fly into Paris and out of Frankfurt. Spend about 4 nights in Paris, then head to Germany. Spend time in the Rhine and Mosel valleys, take a Rhine day cruise, visit a castle or two, check out Cologne for a couple of nights.

Hi,

Bravo that your daughter is taking German in college...a very promising start. Well, you could spend the entire 12 days in Germany, if you are seriously considering that, in which case i would suggest seeing Berlin to be sure and Munich or Frankfurt. Any specific interest in Germany your daughter has? If you decide to go to another country in addition to Germany, then I would suggest from your list France. If you want another place, how about Austria? Your itinerary can focus on three cities...Berlin, Munich, and Vienna, or Berlin, Frankfurt, and Vienna....all very doable, logistically.

On the means as to how to get there: Depending on the places you choose, the night train could be an option, it all depends on your travel style. I have absolutely no problems taking night trains. Your kids may find it acceptable or might reject the option. You squeeze out an extra day for traveling.

Fly in to Vienna - 3 nights
Salzburg - 1 night
Munich - 2 nights
Luzern - 2 nights
Strasbourg - 2 nights - day trip to Colmar
Rhine - 2 nights
Fly out of Frankfurt

Definitely choose one area and focus on that. Trying to skip around will just waste the entire time traveling.

I was in Burgundy last May and felt it was too early to be there. I had the place pretty much to myself, which was nice, but it was still cold and the grape vines barely had their first shoots of spring.

I'd say you want to stay south, which means the main choices are southern France, Spain and Italy plus some odds and ends like Malta. Greece might be nice too.

If you go to Provence, the mistral wind that occurs in spring may, or may not, make several days of your trip uncomfortably windy - so I'd skip that. You can go further west (Bordeaux or Dordogne) or the Riviera and probably be comfortable. The water in the Riviera will still be cold, so it's not really a good beach destination that early in the year.

For Italy, northern Italy will probably be ideal. Venice, Florence and Rome is a doable trip flying into one and out the other. Essentially you would want two or three nights in Venice, at least three nights in Florence and as much as possible in Rome. Adding something in Tuscany is nice but you need a car or bus for most hill towns. I liked Siena though it's a little large. There are quite a few nice towns to choose from. One option is Orvieto in Umbria. It's a unique hill town with more to offer than most. It's right on the way between Florence and Rome so makes a convenient stop.

I like Spain a lot. May is difficult because it can be really hot already in southern Spain. Due to your time constraints, start by choosing either northern or southern. For northern, I'd want to see Barcelona and Toledo for sure, I'd suggest adding Salamanca and Valladolid with maybe Zamora and Segovia to round out the loop. I'm not a fan of Madrid (except el Prado) because it's not an old city and has no historical center. If you go south I'd want to see Granada and Seville for sure, adding Jerez, Ronda and maybe Gibraltar as a loop - plus maybe Cordoba by fast train from Seville. One nice thing about Spain is costs are very reasonable outside of the two expensive cities, Barcelona and Madrid.

You say you have 10-12 days and most of the suggestions so far are in the 12 day range. This is something you really need to nail down.

Are you counting Day 1 as the day you leave the US or the day you arrive in Europe? Is your last day, the day you fly home? If you are counting that way, with 12 days, you only have 10 nights to work with. I always look at nights rather than days.

Day/Night 1 -- leave US. Sleep on the plane. Unlikely with all the excitement.

Night 2 -- arrive Europe am. Jet-lagged 1st day. 1st night there.

Keep in mind that it takes 2 nights somewhere to have a full day there and at least 1/2 day to switch locations. Also keep in mind that a group always travels at the pace of its slowest member.

Nights 3 - 11 -- ?

Day/Night 12 -- leave Europe. Back home in your own beds. Note that since you are on the east coast, you will probably arrive home in the daylight, but you will be very tired because you will be operating on European time.

Sit down with a calendar soon and work this out so you all can see it graphically on paper. My favorite trick is to put little sticky notes on the calendar days and move them around as I develop the itinerary. I use different colors for the places I'm going and for the 2 major travel days, but there are lots of ways to do it.

You've said that your daughter wants to go to Germany, but what does your son, for whom this is a present, want to do?

Kerry, just a little housekeeping -- does everyone have a valid passport expiring after November 2018? Passport office gets busy this time of year.

You've said that your daughter wants to go to Germany, but what does
your son, for whom this is a present, want to do?

I have the same question as Lo. If it's his graduation present, maybe where to go should be his choice, and she gets hers for Germany when SHE graduates?

My son was being very flexible and said “anywhere in Europe is great with me”. So we have firmed up 10 days in Germany, flying in and out of Munich (a no, no, but got a good deal at this late stage in the game.) So if we have the first three nights and the last night reserved in Munich, and want to stay in southern and western Germany and ride trains as much as we can, where should we spend the other 5 night nights? What are the must sees for this trip? We like walking, bikes, trains, trying new food, beer, and wine, water, castles...husband just can’t do a lot of stairs or heights. Thanks!

First trip should be flying into London, taking the Eurostar to Paris and flying home from there. If time allows, take a fast train down to Barcelona and fly home from there

Munich is absolutely one of the best airports in Europe, highly regarded. Nothing wrong with flying in and out of Munich. Flying into Munich I assume you'll be landing in the morning. I would suggest on the first day walk out to the Marienplatz (all pedestrian area), beyond that is the Feldherrnhalle which might interest your daughter in terms of history and German language.

The "hall" is a big monument with the figures of two Bavarian military commanders, Tilly and Wedel. The inside of the Feldherrnhalle is fenced off. But you can still get close enough to it to read the long inscription (in German) on the past wars.

The Feldherrnhalle was the site of the failed Hitler coup in Nov. 1923 which he believed he could take over the Bavarian government, except that the Munich police and the Reichswehr were not going to go comply with his plans for seizing power and opened fire on him and his followers.

Hi,

Since you intend to stay in southern and western Germany for the rest of the trip, then the night train option is not needed. If you want to go Vienna from Munich, that can be done by the night train, instead of spending 4 plus hrs in the morning going there, likewise with Berlin, ie Munich to Berlin via Hannover by night train.

Other places I suggest are Salzburg, Bad Ischl in Austria, (if you're interested in Habsburg history since the Kaiservilla is there which served as Franz Joseph's summer residence), easily done going Munich to Salzburg by train, then taking the bus at Salzburg Hbf to the Bad Ischl bus depot, just opposite of the train station.

OK, it's Germany. 4 days in Munich is good. Then you can do extended trips.

1) Nurnberg - history
2) Leipzig - music, Bach
3) Dresden - history
4) Stuttgart

There are also small towns - Passau (never been) and others

I'm not sure I would do Berlin. Rather than that, I'd go to the Mosel river, spend 3-4 days there, do some castles, wine touring, maybe biking

You could also go to the Alsace region, for some French-inflenced stuff - black forest, etc.