How to trim the budget?

You don't say where you are going, so we really don't know how to tell you where you can cut. Which countries and which cities are you planning? As a family of 3, is this a child traveling along or an adult? This changes transport costs and hotel and meal costs a lot. Are you sharing a room? Will you be in cities where you could rent an apt instead of staying in a hotel? This might allow day trips by train instead of driving. If you make your main meal of the day lunch time, you can take advantage of good deals.

As Jo has said, much depends on the countries you are going to, and where in those countries. Major cities will generally be the most expensive. Spain, especially southern Spain, is cheap compared with much of the rest of Europe. A coffee we pay a euro for at home is much more in central Rome or Paris for example but only a bit more in Barcelona. We pay 7 euros for a perfectly adequate bottle of wine at restaurants and the bill for 2 is rarely more than 30 euros for dinner. Menu del dia is also very good value - anywhere from 6 - 10 euros per head, usually 3 courses, including wine and available Mon - Friday lunchtime in most places. You could never eat a big meal for dinner after that. As a matter of preference we usually try to stay in apartments but it does save money. We generally have breakfast in the apartment, as well as snacks and some meal, in part because we get tired of restaurants every day. We also have drinks we buy in the local supermarket. An apartment is also great to retreat to if you are tired or the weather is bad. You are correct in saying that 110euros is not expensive for a hotel but I suspect you may get a nicer apartment for the same money - and have more space. If you mean 2 hotel rooms for the 3 of you, the saving could be quite great. I am not sure what you include as entertainment - I assume entry tickets etc but this does seem high to me. Again,that depends on where you are going and what you plan to do there.

If your are spending 3 nights or more in one place, i would look into apartments, that will save on food for sure, and maybe on accommodation, but you will have more space. You are saying "rent cars", are you renting in one country and dropping off in another, that can be pricey, you might want to look at cheap airlines, or taking the train only with early purchased discount tickets.

As the others have said, the cities and countries you visit make a big difference in the price, as do the amount of traveling you're doing between them. If you're doing a month in Germany, France, and Austria, you can keep the traveling down to a minimum. If you're jumping from London to Amsterdam to Paris to Madrid to Rome, that's going to eat up a lot of your budget, both in transportation and other costs, as the big cities are more expensive. If you're staying outside of the big cities, you can easily find apartments for around 50-60 euro/night. Then you can eat in 2 meals/day and save money that way, too.

1. Travel shoulder season, you can get better deals on transportation and lodging.

1. Get food from a grocery store for most of your meals. How much do you budget for food at home for three? Probably less than $150 per day ($1050 per week).

1. Travel in logical swaths through one region per vacation. This eliminates a lot of extra transportation costs, not to mention time and effort. Keeping travel legs short saves time and money. Having Rome, Paris, Berlin and London as part of one vacation is expensive and will probably make your vacation less enjoyable.

1. Lease rather than rent a car. If you're driving a lot, a lease is a much better deal (even if you have to pay pick up/drop off charges).

The trip I was planning was to fly west coast to Rome train directly to Orvieto (4 nights and rent car for 4 days) train to Verona (4 nights) to Varenna (4) train to Gimmelwald (4) figured $500 for lifts and $200 per night to stay (more expensive here)then train to Beaune (3 nights and rent a car for 9 days) drive to Ambroise (3) drive to Normandy (3) then drop car and train to Paris (4 also $200 per night). We are three adults sharing one room. I do think I'm estimating high, but it sure seems expensive! I am cheap and our last trip we actually came under budget by 2-3 K, so it could be the same this time. We prefer small B & B's, but apartments may be ok too (looked at one in Paris), but I have to admit, I'm don't like to cook so I'd rather not while I'm on vacation. Breakfast is fine in an apartment, lunch on the street and moderate dinner would be nice. I would love to do this trip, but now wondering if we should cut Gimmelwald ($1,200 in transport)or change France to Germany (last vacation there was cheap)or Croatia. Or, try to stay put longer in just one area? Monte says just do it (we do have the money) but I just can't see spending that much on one trip.

Stay at B&B's, not hotels. Have 2 meals a day, not 3. Get light snacks during the day if you get hungry. Get good guidebooks and find your own way around. Don't hire guides or go on guided tours. Use public transportation, not taxis.

That sounds like an awesome itinerary. And you have the money? And the problem is? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Still. You can spend less for hotels. If you can fall in love with creaky old places, this isn't even a hardship. You can, as you note, rent an apartment and cook (or picnic in your kitchen with prepared chicken, bread, cheese, yogurt, fruit[INVALID]still cheaper than eating out) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Travel off season and save on airfare and other stuff. Switzerland is expensive, but where would you go instead and how much would you actually save as a result? Yes, you can travel to cheaper places and probably have a blast, but your plan is really nice. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What's important to you? Do not spend a ton of money on airfare and hotels and skimp on museums, if it's that, or wine, if it's that, or food, if it's that, just to shave a couple hundred bucks off the bill. Best of luck.

Susan and Monte, We sure you go to Civita one of your days in Orvieto. It's magical. Follow Rick's walking tour. Be sure to try the bruschetta at the olive oil place!! I can still taste it:-)

Seems like there's a difference of opinion within your group re the travel budget. Yes, you could travel cheaper, or you could travel more expensively. If you truly have the money to allocate to this trip, then find ways to cut costs if you want, but don't cut so much that you miss out on experiences that you can afford. If you really want to cut costs, then cutting out a destination or two will make the biggest change (or going to a cheaper location). But then that's not the trip you want, is it? Your big cities, you're kind of stuck with higher lodging costs. In France, however, check out chambres d'hote; they're basically the French version of B&Bs, though some offer dinners as well. We've done that several times, and have enjoyed it. Also, there's a group that I think is called French hotels de charme. Individually owned, but they market as a group. Small, local hotels. I think this is their website: http://www.guidesdecharme.com/

Our family of 5 (three younger children) spent 100Euro/day for lodging, 42Euro TOTAL per day for food and about 45Euro TOTAL per day for Entertainment and incidentals. We traveled about 3000 miles by car and train over five weeks for about 1600Euro for all ground transport. Within reason, you can pretty much spend whatever amount per day you can afford to spend. If you can only afford a little, you can rough it, if you can afford a lot, the sky is the limit. The real question is what cheaper "style" of trip is palatable for you, and only you can answer that question. For example, a dinner at a semi-nice restaurant could cost $150 for the three of you with drinks, or it could cost $20 worth of groceries and drink tap water. It's up to you to decide if spending a couple of hours shopping and cooking and cleaning up vs. that same couple of hours being served at a restaurant is worth $130 to you.

three adults sharing one room-that really sounds like you're a prime candidate for apartment rentals. this may result in staying in places longer and, thus, traveling to fewer places, which would also save money as transportation gets expensive. whatever you do, have a great trip, and don't stress too much about money. a few hundred dollars here and there is not going to throw you into bankruptcy. when you are hungry, eat, and don't worry about it putting you a few euros over budget.

Susan, I know how much you want to go to Switzerland, and your reasons for going on this next trip. You should go for it. Some things should not be put off. To save money, if I can stay in an apartment, I prefer to do that. Even if you don't want to cook, like someone else said, you can buy precooked chicken or whatever and throw together an inexpensive meal. Or picnic when you can. We do that everywhere we go. I agree that you have a good itinerary that should make you all happy. Don't give up on France. I think you are estimating high for lodging too. The one bedroom apartment we are renting in Verona is 80 euros per night and sleeps 4. I'm not sure if that particular apartment would suit you, but I'm sure others are available. We can talk after I get back!

There are ways to skimp that make sense and ways to skimp that don't make much sense. To the poster who said don't go on any tours, now that to me does not make any sense. One has just spent 1000's of dollars to come over here and then write off a 12-15 euro tour, which is what they cost in most cities. This is probably one of the best things you could spend your money on as they enhance a visit tremendously, especialy if you do one your very first day in a city. Tours do NOT have to be expensive.....If people are on vacation and do not want to cook, then more power to them, it is certainly not on my list of things I want to do when I travel. Maybe a sandwich here and there or some toast and tea, but not a full meal.... If one looks, you can find very reasonable restaurants in most cities (well, except for Switzerland and Scandinavia) We eat out all the time and seldom spend more than 40 euro for 3 of us and this is at dinner time. If we did this at lunch it would be even cheaper. I don't know if we have ever spent 120 euro at a restaurant, even when it was 4 of us.... One might have to look outside of the RS books though, as they are quite limiting to choices. Ask your hotel front desk clerks, ask the people in the store you just visited, people are proud of their towns and will pretty much always give you excellent recommendations. Or ask the Destination Experts on Trip Advisor, they can usually recommend some good places too, including lodging.

Or another perspective...is there any way to trim the budget during the year at home? Maybe this year, don't eat out as often, don't buy a new outfit for the office party, don't drink soda pop, don't buy the new car you really wanted?

I have several suggestions: 1) figure out how much you can afford for this trip, then make a budget that fits: 2) if you stay in an apartment, there is an intermediate eating arrangement midway between expensive restaurant meals and cooking it yourself.....almost everywhere I've been in the past 10 years has shops, stores, delis with ready-made food that can be taken home and heated up: 3) if breakfast is not included in your room or apartment rental, buy the fixings for breakfast and eat at home. Coffee, yoghurt, milk, eggs, bread, cereal or whatever you want can be cheaper and more nutritious than a breakfast of coffee and bread. 4) Visit only those sites, museums, etc that you really want to see. Don't assume that "since you are there" you have to see everything.

Leave Monte here (shhhhhhhhhh...) ;-)

You haven't really mentioned it but some replies have... Do you really want to skimp on a trip? Why go somewhere and then not spend a few Euros more to really enjoy it. You spend a good deal of time, effort, planning, and traveling to your destination. You need to decide what is most important to you make plans to how to best enjoy it but you need to define and prioritize your goals. Travel off season and stay in smaller towns but it would be a shame not to get what you really want out of a trip because then you'll need to spend 2x the money going back.

Lisa's comment is quite sensible if you are a person whose budget does not need to stretch to the limit to go on a trip like this. If the choice is between splurging a little during the trip or splurging day to day at home, I think you should cut back at home and splurge on the trip. **** HOWEVER, for us and for many others (unfortunately including many who don't travel because they mistakingly perceive it to be out of their spending range) the choice is really between traveling thriftily or not going at all. To me, standing on the sidewalk in the historic and picturesque center of a great European city IS why I'm there. I'm not buying relaxation. I'm not buying service or a chocolate candy on my pillow every night. If those things were important to me, I would be forced to choose to visit somewhere closer to home. That's my situation. It may not be yours. There's nothing wrong with either situation. **** But it is important to me, as someone who finds travel very rewarding, to do whatever I can to encourage others to take the plunge if they are interested. If they are under the impression that the only way to do it is to splurge on aspects of the trip that are not, stricly speaking, necessary, then too many of them will throw up their hands and declare it simply too expensive. That would be a shame.

I really appreciate all the ideas! And, I think you are all correct that we should do what we want and not have regrets, as long as we can afford to do it. One of the reasons I want to go to Gimmelwald is that when we were there we/(I) were too cheap to buy the lift tickets and our daughter had surgery and couldn't hike. So now I want to spend lots of $$ to go back and do that! On our last trip we had the money saved and we were able to eat out at moderately priced restaurants and I didn't worry about getting the cheapest thing on the menu. That was a thrill for me. I'd like to be able to do that again.**I need to get Rick's new books to see what he thinks the price per day should be for 2011. I went off his $$ amount on our last trip and we came home with money. * Monte is fine with us going and doing the trip we planned, it's just me. (Eileen, maybe we should leave our daughter home!) Maybe I just need to let it go and enjoy. But, like I've heard other say...we drive old cars, have an old house that needs work that we don't do, etc. so we can save money for Europe. Maybe I should just live life and not worry, go and let it be...life is short. I just wish it wasn't so much $$$! I feel guilty when we could buy a new car for what we will spend. But, memories are better than cars. Knowing me, I'll find cheap places, I don't shop, eat light and come home with money again. It is the sticker price that kills me!

Ricks book gets published soon but currency is always fluctuating so I wouldn't necessarily go by what Rick estimates. You'll need to ball park it. One thing you say about taking money and coming back with money. If you are exchanging money you are already at a loss as that is a big waste of money, using the proper (low or no fee) ATM card is the best method of getting money in Europe.

Actually, what I really meant to say was that we had budgeted so much money and had it in our bank, but then didn't use a few thousand of it. It was great to come home not having used what we saved, then we just started another saving for our next trip. I love that idea, to already have saved for the next trip when you haven't even taken the current one yet. But, again, we are cheap and travel fairly cheap too.** I know I budget high, which I'm more comfortable doing, and on this trip I'm estimating the Euro to be 1.40..who knows what it will be next summer.

Susan and Monte, I feel that travel is a very personal thing and one needs to set priorities on where/what to visit and see or do. I try to save by: travelling in shoulder/off seasons, staying in apartments, leasing a car vs renting,diesel vs gas, manual vs automatic, staying longer vs shorter but flying more often, staying in smaller, less visited locales if you have a car,shopping at markets and sampling street foods, breakfast at our apartment and possibly making dinner, lunches out, not buying special travel outfits (no one ese cares anyway), buying one special souvenir, watching currency fluctuations (one year will be more expensive than another - it's chance). Good luck and I hope this helps.

Susan, I don't see where you are getting $1200 in transport costs for Gimmelwald. Three Transfer Tickets at $120 each would be $360 (this year's price), and would get you from the Italy border to Gimmelwald (or Mürren, see below) and from Gimmelwald to the French/Swiss border. A full-fare ticket up the Schilthorn from there is another 71 CHF, so 210 CHF more. Even at even exchange (which it isn't, at least not yet!) that's $570 total. If you want passes to do more riding around, three 3-day Flex/Saver passes would be $600, and your ride up the Schilthorn would be down to 35 CHF each, or 105 CHF for the 3 of you. And you'd get a free ride over to, say Wengen and a discount from there if you wanted to go up to Mannlichen. So you're still only around $700 for travel into, out of, and around Switzerland, including tthe Schilthorn. If you want an inexpensive place to stay, try Chalet Fontana B&B in Mürren; triple rooms is 125 CHF. I don't know how that compares to Gimmelwald, but it sounds pretty good. What are you looking at for Verona and Varenna? You should be able to find apartments for your 4-night stay in each. Renting an apartment doesn't mean you have to cook; you can still go out for dinner but the apartment itself is generally less expensive than a hotel room (especialy a triple). We were looking at an apartment in Varenna for 120 euro, and I believe it would accommodate 3. Our apartment in Verona was 160 euro but we could have found one for less. Lucca was 120 euro, and these were all apatments that slept 4 of us.

OK - Monte can go ;-) And your daughter, too.........Susan, I understand completely how you feel. I really try to keep a tight rein on the expenses, but the total $$$ amount just seems so high! Eek! But on this particular trip, don't forget you're actually spending that extra money you came home with last time when you didn't go to Gimmelwald. See - feel better?!? You're welcome.

[[And I like Rudy (Rude), too!]]

Try to stay at moderate hotel chain like Etap. They have many hotels in europe. Keep your stay in expensive cities like London, Paris and all of Switzerland out of your itin as much as poss. Limit your intake of alcoholic beverages to a bottle you may keep in your hotel room. B&B incl breakfast as do most guesthouses, stick with them for the most part. Skip buying for fun and souvenirs can be your photos. Stay in cheaper countries like Germany, France, Portugal. Hope this helps alittle. I know how a tight budget can be fly into to cheaper airports like Frankfurt & last yr Geneva& sometimes Zurich. Gd Luck.

That last comment is reasonable advice in general, but it doesn't apply to the question here. They aren't even going to London. Paris isn't expensive if you get an apartment (try Vacationi Paris.com, lots of choices for short-stay apartments at good prices). And their main desire, it seems, is to go to Gimmelwald in Switzerland, which isn't particularly expensive. It's the main cities in Switzerland that are expensive. Since they are traveling from Italy to France, a short stop in Switzerland makes sense, especially if it is meaningful to them.

Lola, I guess I really don't know the Swiss rail system and the different passes. I had looked up going by train from Varenna to Gimmelwald and it was $110.00pp (SF or USD about same) then from Gimmelwald to Beaune $135.00pp. I did see "specials" but I don't want to count on getting them. So that is $735 just to get in and out of the BO. Then I had looked up point to point lifts we would want to take (basically just to take two hikes and get up and down to Gimmelwald- I didn't even count going all the way to Schilthorn, just figured it would be too much, and not a big deal to me. That was about $500 estimating high. So, maybe it is less than I thought? It looked like the travel costs, especially to Gimmelwald were eating up lots of our $$. And then we will only be there 4 nights- not a lot of time for a lot of $$. But it is so beautiful. Also, I was thinking we could find accommodations in Varenna and Verona for 110 E per night for three. Those you listed are even more. The Orange ? in Varenna is less, so hopefully cheaper places are out there.*** I don't shop, I'll drink a glass of wine but Monte none, so those expenses are not an issue. ** Thanks to all for the ideas!

Hi again Susan - disregard my comments about lodging - those are for 4 people and you are correct, you can do better with Rick's recommendations, especially at Orange House in Varenna, which is well under 110 euro. It's really your costs for Gimmelwald that are way too high. For starters, to go from Varenna to Beaune you will travel through Switzerland anyway; all routes from Milan go via Bern, Basel, or Lausanne. So your real cost of going to Gimmelwald is just the extra cost of the detour from that route, at Spiez. That is less than 60 CHF round-trip! So 180 CHF total for 3 of you, not $1200! Now if you want to travel around and ride lifts to access hiking, that will add up, but again you can reduce those costs. For the Schilthorn, walk up to Mürren to catch the cablecar; one-way to the top from there is 48 CHF. Add 20 CHF if you want to ride back down to Birg and hike down from there. If you are going to do more traveling around it might be worth getting the 3-day Flex Pass, which would cover 3 full days of travel and take 50% off the Schilthorn trip and other lifts. This option would be $200 for each of you, or $600, but remember that this will also cover much of your travel from Milan to Beaune (all of the journey through Switzzerland), so you can't really charge all $600 to the Gimmelwald cost. If you look just at the incremental cost of going to Gimmelwald on your way to Beaune, it really is not bad at all. You keep saying how beautiful it is and how much you wish to return there, and I'm just saying it isn't nearly as expensive as you think. FWIW, when we are there we just hike right from Mürren, no lifts at all, so this is alwyas one of our least expensive stops anywhere in Europe.

[[Susan, now you're going to have to bring home a gift for Lola - and don't cheap out because she knows her Switzerland ;-)]]

Thank you so much Lola! Sounds like we may be able to get away with less $$ for the BO. I really appreciate the information. I think we probably will want to get the pass, but I didn't know any information about it or that we could use it towards our other train fare in Switzerland to Beaune. Thanks!

Susan and Monte. If you have the money - do it. I don't want to sound flippant, but we have saying here 'There are no pockets in shrouds'

What is your budget. We just got back from 28 days, 7 countries, 10 cities and the cost for us was $5700 Cdn dollars per person. Hotels were in the 100-120 Euro, 100 pound range. We hit every tourist trap, museum etc and never felt we skimped on anything. Some meals in cafe's, but mostly takeaway food. Fell in love with panini's. Breakfast was included in almost all hotels, and they were big. It was rare to eat 3 meals a day.

Susan: We need to discuss this at the next Sacramento Area group meeting. I have some ideas for you in Switzerland, but it will be easier to sit with our laptops going over it. Do you know if the group is on for the 18th? Will it be at Panera in Natomas as discussed? Kevin

Hi Kevin, Yes, I think that meeting location works for most people. Could you send out a reminder with directions like we had talked about, when it get closer? I don't think Eileen will be there, but I think Larry will, you and Kit? Maybe others?? Yes, I would love to sit with you and go over the Swiss tickets so I can understand what would work best for us and find the correct cost. Thanks Kevin!

I thought Andrea was going to miss it because she's in Italy but that Mary/Eileen would get the Sacramento September meeting organized...?

Yes, Andrea and Jim will be on their trip and Eileen will be out of town, too. Kevin had suggested a location closer to Sacramento, so he had offered to send out information/address for that.

Darcy, I'm coming to visit you ;-).........Actually, on the day of the Sacto mtg, I have a family commitment (or, more accurately, family to be committed...)

"No pockets in shrouds" or, alternatively, Keep your money in Bank of America so you can take it with you (because they're all over hell). :).......My travel motto is, "Save money where you can, so you can spend it where you want." I tend to save a ton on food and lodging. I shop long and hard for the best airfares, but I don't worry at all about admission fees to sites (if I would be sorry to have missed it). My other big splurge (money and packing space) in the past was film - thank God for digital!

They say they the things that make you truly happy are not things like cars but memories like trips. We too "should" do things to our house but I can't give up the trip next year to Europe.