History around us, today.

Perhaps it depends on the station? My satellite coverage includes 2 diffrent PBS stations. Both of them have aired this program several times this year. I can understand why many would air it sometime today.

It is interesting and very appropriate for our time (and for the day). I'm glad that there are business owners like him who are speaking out, no matter what the cost. This segment of it was especially compelling.

"Fascism in Europe" — while chillingly engaging and thrilling to watch — also has a practical purpose: to help us learn from Europe's experience and to show how, even today, would-be autocrats follow the same playbook in their attempts to derail democracies. It's a case study in how fear and angry nationalism can be channeled into evil, and how our freedoms and democracies are not indestructible…in fact, they are fragile.

Fyi, this program has been playing on PBS stations for several years, and RS has mentioned it in numerous interviews and stories in magazines and papers.

Rick puts his finger deliberately on the part of the story where the Weimar... (webmaster edit) ...imagine themselves able to exploit and control Hitler's energy and loudmouth charisma, only to later find themselves locked away.

Thank you fred for bringing this important program up.
Thanks for your analysis Avi.

Let me point out that nowhere does fred say this program is new, but fred has had the good sense to bring it back to people's attention and the fact that Public tv is rebroadcasting it now . The subject should leave no one indifferent.

England is going the same way. I wouldn't event consider living in the majority of towns outside of London. I feel relatively safe from the onslaught that you see in the media in my London (Hackney, specifically) bubble. I have very little in common with the "patriots" putting their flegs up on lamp posts that we see elsewhere. It seems far more acceptable to do and say hateful things out loud against the "out group", whoever that is this week, than it would have been a decade ago.

I have considered a time when I might move back to Scotland. It's interesting in Scotland and Northern Ireland how it divides along sectarian lines, by and large. A whole 'nother layer of division. Different lay of the land historically up there.

I'm staying holed up in Hackney for the moment, remembering Cable Street when I see Nick Tenconi speaking at protest marches for "concerned citizens" in central London. No room for such people in Hackney. Everyone else is welcome though.

On the personal freedoms front, the history of fascism in Europe has of course been a good lesson to the USA. While Rick seems worried about our country leaning into fascism, I wonder what his concerns are about Europeans themselves. I have to wonder whether Europeans have learned as much as we have. Here, first amendment rights seem to be on relatively stable ground; protestors openly call the police, the president, or anyone else they detest "Hitler" or "Nazi" if that's how they feel. In Europe, there are places where insulting someone's honor or reputation is a criminal offense and can get you up to 5 years in the slammer. Speaking hatefully about blacks, whites, or other ethnicities... or publishing misinformation - the kind of stuff that is just bad form in our country - also can result in criminal punishment.

Indeed Russ, for example holocaust denial is a punishable offense here in France, and the EU has tighter controls, not complete control on the BS but tighter controls on the #1 democracy destroyer: social media. Thank goodness.

I really don’t think this is a topic where you can talk about ‘Europeans’ or ‘Europe’ as an amorphous mass. Much too much variation in our historys and cultures.

Can anyone say whether Americans or Europeans are more or less capable than one another in closing their eyes or ears to history?

Or is one people, rather than another, more or less likely to hear the siren call of simple solutions to complex problems?

In the 1930s, as Mussolini and Hitler consolidated power, Father Coughlin, Charles Lindbergh, the KKK and an America First movement had many followers and adherents.

Thank you Rick, for reminding us of European history and for suggesting that lessons from 20th C. history can and should be remembered today, on both sides of the Atlantic. And thank you PBS in Seattle for airing this again after I returned home from downtown Seattle, yesterday afternoon.

Can anyone say whether Americans or Europeans are more or less capable
than one another in closing their eyes or ears to history?

Good question, fred. A lot probably depends on how a given country defines freedom in the first place and on the sort of freedom in question. Our country has a long history of tolerance when it comes to free expression. Flag desecration is bad form here, where it's a routine protest activity, but it's patently illegal to do this in Germany, France, Denmark and other countries. Maybe it's unfair to call such laws a disregard for political expression, or maybe Europeans just see this as too-stupid-a-way-to-express-one's-views to protect.

It's quite common in Germany to see armed federal police whenever there are large, widespread political demonstrations. At large rallies here, a lot of people view the presence of the National Guard - or sometimes even local police - as some sort of authoritarian, freedom-wrenching neo-Nazi power grab on the part of the mayor/governor/president whose idea it was to send them. Germans don't typically feel that way - it's more like... "Of course the feds are there to help out in case things get violent down by the train station or the government buildings." But I wouldn't fault the Germans for "turning their backs on history" here - in certain other ways, the German government and people very actively demonstrate their country's responsibility for the past.

Rick's program on fascism is excellent. It is some of his best work. Hats off to Rick

Visiting WW2 sites has always been a priority on my travels.

Happy travels.

Flag desecration is bad form here, where it's a routine protest activity, but it's patently illegal to do this in Germany, France, Denmark and other countries

The degree of iconification around the American flag has always seemed slightly odd to me as an outsider, though it has its historical reasons.

I'm not sure there's many direct comparisons in attitudes to flags in general with western European countries.

Denmark, for example, bans the burning of any flag, with one exception: the Danish flag itself. According to Danish law, burning the flag of a foreign nation is a provocation that can hurt Denmark’s status in the world community. source

Interesting!

It's quite common in Germany to see armed federal police whenever there are large, widespread political demonstrations.

In very most cases this is state police, maybe supported by polices from other German states. Demonstrations are subject of state or even community authorities, also to protect these. Federal police is only involved if federal buildings or institutions need direct protection, also main train stations and airports. Berlin for example often gets support from other northern state polices.

I really don’t think this is a topic where you can talk about ‘Europeans’ or ‘Europe’ as an amorphous mass. Much too much variation in our historys and cultures.

I agree and would go further into regional differences in supporting or resisting against fascism. But one common thing nearly all over Europe is that up to WW1 there were monarchies; so a lot of people were used to say "Hurray" three times to a leader without legitimization from the people of a nation. "Der Untertan" from Heinrich Mann is an interesting book which illustrates the mindset of a follower in these times.

"Here, first amendment rights seem to be on relatively stable ground; protestors openly call the police, the president, or anyone else they detest "Hitler" or "Nazi" if that's how they feel."

Uh, no.

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2025/10/thousands-of-no-kings-protests-are-taking-place-nationwide-gop-calls-them-hate-america-rallies.html

"Thousands of ‘No Kings’ protests are taking place nationwide. GOP calls them ‘Hate America’ rallies"

edit: "US president criticizes ‘anarchists and agitators’ as he unveils memo expected to meet fierce legal pushback"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/25/trump-presidential-memorandum-political-violence

On this law-enforcement presence at demos subtopic, and variations between regions, there is a very current item on my mind -- the SF city and county police agencies did an amazing job at the downtown No Kings march along Market Street and rally in the square between City Hall and the library. They were nearly invisible, actually, by blocking vehicle traffic on the cross streets not at the Market intersection but at the next farther intersection. That way their police cars were a block away from the march route instead of along the edge of the marchers.

The outsiders were another story -- in our case the outside agitators were the Dept of Homeland Security.
As the rally was dispersing close to 5pm Saturday, a full line of shiny new white SUVs with red bands and Homeland Security badging occupied Hyde between McAllister and Market, which would be a pedestrian exit route for those going back along Market. Almost everyone taking BART or Muni, though, didn't have to brave this show of force b/c the descalators and bus stops are on the near side of the cross street.

I stood and watched the row of SUVs for a few moments, and the regular layabouts there on UN Plaza started bellowing "There they are! There they are!" and yelling at the cars to get lost in very colorful language.

After a few minutes the caravan took off at high speed, turning left to get towards the other side of Market.

If I had my wits about me I would have tapped on a window and asked for directions to the transit terminal or the ferry terminal or somesuch, to see if these fellas even knew anything about the city they were trying to menace.

The weekend news is also reporting that our loudmouth is ready to send forces into San Francisco, claiming that we want their help. State reps immediately replied that we do not.

Back to travel -- the armed police in Spain and France seem to have much better public interaction manners than those in, say Mexico City, or San Jose.

So here's my takeaway from the posts on this thread: Rick's program/history lessons were probably introduced here not really to promote a travel discussion but to somehow connect Rick's lessons on historic fascism in Europe with the way protests and protestors here are handled by our authorities and justice system.

My naive first thought was that how the US handles protests MIGHT be relevant on this travel forum - but only inasmuch as it impacts the traveler's expectations and behavior while traveling in Europe - and since today's travelers in Europe aren't encountering Fascist governments or the on-the-ground forces that keep Fascists in power, what we actually do encounter there is what matters.

This eyewitness report that SF's "agitators" (feds) were "nearly invisible" (??) - and that the ones yelling at the agitators to get lost "in very colorful language" were not agitators - does say something about our assumptions here. SOME of us may think uttering insults and slanderous comments at the police and other authority figures is universally acceptable/commendabl/benign public behavior - when in fact certain places in Europe will reward such behavior not with Fascist cruelty, nor with the tolerance they get back home, but with genuinely unpleasant consequences. I offer the clearly travel-related anecdote below as an example of misguided American assumptions:

https://liveandletsfly.com/frankfurt-airport-nazi-police/

The Police are fairly tolerant over here I think. The way they handle protests is fairly restrained, from what I see on live streams etc. There's a pretty clear threshold of how much force they can get away with using. That hasn't always been the case, but for the last thirty years or so there hasn't really been any instances of significant numbers of people being hurt by police during civil unrest. The bad old "he fell down the stairs" days of possibly getting a kicking at the police station for giving the coppers lip have gone too, by and large, as far as I know.

I'm no statist bootlicker, but I'd still be a lot more worried about getting a smack from a Spanish or French cop than what British cops can get away with these days. Really heavy handed policing isn't common here, touch wood, in my opinion.

[edit: I'd probably leave Northern Ireland out of my assessment of British police. It's a whole different ball game there]

Russ - The folks uttering insults and slanderous comments at the police/agitators/yelling were described as "the regular layabouts there on UN Plaza [who] started bellowing "There they are! There they are!" and yelling at the cars to get lost in very colorful language." Based on my experience, the UN Plaza layabouts are generally unhoused or otherwise marginalized, and do not typically display acceptable/commendable/benign public behavior - even for San Francisco.

We do learn from travel. And we exchange views when we travel as conversations may flow. My lengthy, recent 4-part trip reports on SW Germany and Eastern France briefly reflect that. The Centre d’Histoire de la Resistance et Déportation in Lyon, the stolpersteine that RS points out on Freiburg’s sidewalks, the meaning of “chantier” or work-in-progress that we learned in Strasbourg’s Notre Dame - a church that was for some of its 1000 years, Protestant rather than Catholic.

My purpose here was not to generate discussion of Saturday’s demonstrations on the forum, but to encourage reflection on how ideas travel and how we learn through reflections on travel. I think that was part of RS’s thinking in this program.

As for how history shapes what follows - and how current events shape our view of history - I am now learning from Marc Bloch’s The Historian’s Craft. The Centre d’Histiore reintroduced this historian to me.

Simple explanations often defy the complexities of how human experience evolves.

LATE NOTE Russ, thank you for reminding us that this is, first and foremost, a travel forum.

The point is not about this individual batch of SF homeless, Estimated Prophet. It's that the lips and signs of many in the protest movement - and their sympathizers - issue abusive and insulting language like "Nazi", "pig", Gestapo" and worse to our own authorites here, and without legal consequences or recriminations from their fellow protestors, apparently. This is nothing new. It's become part of our language-culture over the decades. It has helped to normalize verbal attacks on authorities to the extent that we find Americans traveling abroad abusing foreign law enforcement officials in similar ways when they pass through security, and that is my point... The linked university professor's example should work as lesson to travelers on the dim view that certain other oft-visited countries/cultures have on our Amercan definition of free speech.

Strange, getting both statements from same person. I assure you many people sincerely believe they are Nazis. Or at least the ones giving them their orders are.

"...issue abusive and insulting language like "Nazi", "pig", Gestapo" and worse to our own authorites here, and without legal consequences or recriminations from their fellow protestors, apparently."

"...here, first amendment rights seem to be on relatively stable ground; protestors openly call the police, the president, or anyone else they detest "Hitler" or "Nazi" if that's how they feel."

The commentary is interesting from folks who live in Europe and those who view equivalent travel as an equivalent.

Have lived in France and Germany. Life can be unalterably different when you live or try to like your neighbors. Visiting is unavoidably a “flyover” to observe but not participate. My son was a teenager growing up in Germany and came across a line of riot police and stopped to chat up a Nordic beauty. Conversation (in German) lingered for a bit until she remarked “You’re very nice but a little too young for me.” He wisely moved along.

In France we were stopped for a field sobriety point that was mostly a training iteration for police cadets. The trainee officer was flustered trying to explain the breathalyzer until I said in English, “You mean blow into it”. She giggled and said Oui.

There’s some universality in the way people live and it just comes out differently across borders. There are all manner of concerns that can be shared across borders. Friends we have in a couple of countries are concerned for us as we are for them. Take that away from your consideration rather intense analysis of every issue.

It is important to remember history and the evil of extremist regimes on the right and left.
The 20th Century will be remembered as the high watermark for NAZISM, FASCISTS and COMMUNISM.
Tens of millions dies, not only in war, but murdered by their own dictators. The Holocaust should Never be forgotten.
Neither should the 24 million murdered by Stalin and 70 million murdered by Mao.

Yet today, if you go to the PRC you will be told that Mao was only 35% wrong. He is still revered by the Communist Party there.

Having lived in Germany over 30 years ago, I remember when some of our German local national employees were arrested by the police for bid rigging fraud and held incarcerated for 6 months and not charged. Of course, they all eventually confessed.

The police were right, they were guilty, but the USA has the Bill of Rights and that would be illegal.
Also, in many countries, there is not equivalent to our 1st Amendment, as is shown now in the UK.

The plot of Eugène Ionesco's Rhinoceros centers on a small town where
people mysteriously and inexplicably transform into rhinoceroses, with
the protagonist, Bérenger, becoming the last human remaining. The
play's main themes are the dangers of conformity and mass mentality,
particularly the rise of fascism, but it also explores isolation, the
breakdown of communication, and the absurdity of life.

Also Invasion of the body snatchers, seven beauties (Lina Wertmüller's film),Sinclair Lewis's It Can't Happen Here, and of course Weekend at Bernies. What? You need something to make you laugh too!

The point is travel, study of history, culture and an appreciation of some of lessons of history from the fall of Rome, the renaissance, nationalism, fascism and invention of chocolate, well, they all mean something.

Happy travels.

RobertH: Your comment escapes me. I'd appreciate your explanation for the incongruity you see between those two statements.

"I'd appreciate your explanation for the incongruity you see between those two statements. "

Sure. It's the bit about:

"...first amendment rights seem to be on relatively stable ground;"

in the second statement versus:

"...without legal consequences or recriminations"

in the first. Why should there be "legal consequences" for using your first amendment rights?

edit: Libel and such of course. But I'd love to see that in Court.

“THOSE WHO CANNOT REMEMBER THE PAST
ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT.”

—-George Santayana, 1905.

Robert H.: Thank you for explaining your comment.

You seem to equate the 2nd statement with a value judgment on my part that simply is not there. I am making no case for or against legal consequences for name calling, vulgarity, etc. or for/against the way we handle free speech in this country. The statement merely indicates that there are typically no legal consequences for this kind of verbal abuse at US protests or elsewhere in the US, for that matter. You can call anyone pretty much anything you like here and not be charged with a crime.

Thanks for the clarification Russ.

"...making no case for or against legal consequences"

I did indeed think you were regretting there was no "legal consequences" to such behavior.

My error.

Aggressive name-calling is one of several US freedoms that do not have exact counterparts in some European countries. I do think it's a sad fact that it passes for political commentary and makes us all more tribal and more stupid in the long run. It bothers me personally when I hear it, no matter which politician is the target, but having grown up with the "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names..." training most boomers got, I don't really understand why it's necessary to punish it. But the fact that some countries do punish it is worth knowing and remembering. How sad it might turn out for some American in the passport line playfully yelling "Hey, a..h..., get over here" to his brother - and to be overheard by some German security agent as a message for him/her by mistake.

Email just received from Rick Steves ...

You're invited to join me and Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union and an enthusiastic traveler, tonight (Monday, October 20) for a timely discussion on the importance and fragility of civil liberties — both at home and abroad.

Civil liberties are under attack in the US like never before. It's scary, it's real — and that's why we'll be exploring good and bad governance through the ages. From Renaissance Italy to the present moment, we'll examine how a familiarity with history and lessons learned on the road can help Americans better understand and meet the challenges facing democracy in the US today. It's free to attend but please register

I'm also rallying our community of Rick Steves travelers to come together to empower the more-important-than-ever work of the ACLU. From October 20 – 22, the full purchase price (your entire order amount) for purchases made in our online Travel Store will be donated to ACLU (up to $50,000) and I'll also match that amount $1 for $1 for a total combined donation up to $100,000 in defense of our liberties and our democracy.

It's time to raise our voices (financially) in solidarity. Please join me at this important moment…and have fun shopping for your next trip!

LATE NOTE: I am pained to see that this conflicts with Game 7 or the Seattle Mariners vs Toronto Blue Jays series.

SCOND LATE NOTE: If you miss a show, recordings of all past Monday Night Travel shows can be viewed at www.ricksteves.com/mnt.

"Aggressive name-calling is one of several US freedoms that do not have exact counterparts in some European countries. I do think it's a sad fact that it passes for political commentary..."

Because it works. :(

It influences a lot of people in the ways that the people using it want. People being people. It also has other effects but that's rarely of concern.

We can do better if we choose to. But that "choose" is doing a lot of work there.

edit: Thank you fred for the notice of the RS sale for the ACLU. I wouldn't have seen that.

Thanks for showing that email Fred. As if I needed another reason for truly admiring and respecting RS. #walk the talk

CJean

Thank for your message.

Now, how can the Mariners dispatch the Blue Jays, tonight. THIS is the topic that merits further attention!

Of course, even if you are from Ontario, I know you will pick the right side and root for the Ms.

@GerryM

Not clear whom you are addressing. Perhaps me. I did not say the US is "exceptional" - only that insults and name-calling are routine here and almost without exception permissible, whereas in SOME European jurisdictions, the law is quite different, and it is good to know about such differences. I do not know about "all of Europe" and do not pretend to. But the point is that if you are accustomed to shooting off your mouth, you should do so with caution.

The "Nazi" name-calling in Germany is one thing. Another is the broader area of "insults", which you may or may not know about but can read about here:

https://se-legal.de/criminal-defense-lawyer/defamation-libel-lawyer-germany/insult/?lang=en

Fred, have you been smoking the wacky tobcaccy today? If Guerrero is still hot tonight, your team will have their work cut out for them. It's been a great series.

@fred:

Aargh. Did Rick ask you to forward this to the forum? If so, don't you think it would be thoughtful and informative if Rick were to enumerate a sampling of the specific civil liberties he sees as "under attack" for his audience? Or at least a couple of constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms he no longer enjoys?

I read hotel reviews before booking and restaurant menues before dining out. Prior to running off to their church, I ask a few specific questions when religious proselytizers knock on my door for recruitment purposes. **Is it too much to see a couple of items on the ACLU agenda before attending and possibly handing over my cash to them??"

Or would the specifics reveal the essentially political purpose of posting this on a travel forum?

Russ, of course you are already familiar with Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, as well as Article 11 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. But perhaps you have an objection to the restrictions imposed by their Hate Speech laws?

Even Americans, who hold their first amendment as some kind of ideal, have certain restrictions on free speech. And your federal government seems intent on reining in some of the "freedoms" included within that amendment. Wasn't that one of the reasons for the massive protests on Saturday?

And OMG, all Fred did was forward an email informing anyone who might be interested of the pod cast tonight. Don't want to listen, then dont. Haven't educated yourself on the current concerns of the ACLU? Then either educate yourself or dont participate. This is a RS forum. Fred forwarded an email discussing another RS area, which you can find ON THIS WEBSITE under Watch Read Listen, Monday Night Travel. What is your problem?

Not clear whom you are addressing. Perhaps me.

Yes. I should have quoted you back but I thought it was obvious being right underneath. Sorry.

But the point is that if you are accustomed to shooting off your mouth, you should do so with caution.

I would still maintain that in practice this has very little effect, not anywhere I know anyway. Vague statements like this don't serve much purpose. Where exactly do you mean? What sort of "shooting your mouth off"? The link you provided just seemed like standard defamation stuff to me, like you might find in a civil case in the US. Was there some other darker element to it you wanted to highlight?

I'm personally quite happy with what's in UK and European Court of Human Rights legislation at the moment. I'm all for people's protected characteristics being offered a little safety under law at the expense of some a-hole's free speech. Censoring political ideas using this type of legislation isn't going on anywhere in western Europe anyplace I know. On the other hand, I'd probably be designated Antifa under NSPM-7. Maybe you have examples in Europe?

Russ,

I would like our focus to remain on why we travel - especially to historic sites and other sites that involve history - and what we can and do learn from travel. I have certainly learned a lot about travel from you over the past six months. If you want to engage in a direct discussion, feel free to DM me.

If you would rather the forum focuses on travel, why we travel, how we travel and what we can learn from travel - and avoid political discussions here - then please don't invite me to go deeper, here.

If you want to know why RS is having tonight's program, then watch it tonight, or at a later time if you would rather see the ACLS or if you have some other conflict tonight.

Thanks for your understanding.

LATE Addition

From my recent TR, https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/sw-germany-e-france-lyon-paris-part-4-of-4 on 10/1/2025

Final Comments.

...

Point #7. People and societies are always renewing themselves. We go through periods of light and periods of darkness. That is the human condition. We must remember those who have come before us - and what has happened before - in the hope that we avoid making the same mistakes again.
...

Point #9. Hopefully, we can learn from those abroad who do some things better than we ourselves do at home.

This is a travel forum under the heading of Rick Steves' Europe for travel to... EUROPE, not the USA.

Rick's politics do not belong here IMHO any more than anyone else's unless essentially travel-related. But since his voice is pasted here to tell us how urgent his politics are and how scared we should be and that we need to send the ACLU our cash, etc., then it's not just out of place, it's a bit devious to be so non-specific. It feels like nothing more than fear-mongering without explanation.

Visitors traveling to Europe and staying out of trouble with the authorities there is relevant to travel. The status of civil liberties in the USA is not.

And there's not a thing wrong with me, but thanks for asking.

Sorry to you Russ for adding to getting a hard time from quite a few folk here. DM me if you want me to delete anything.

I am not hypersensitive and I am no censor. I am disappointed that tearing up the shared agreement on participation here is done so casually.

I am not hypersensitive and I am no censor.

Ah no worries. I had posted and then scrolled back and there were several people responding to a point you made all at once. Don't worry, you wouldn't be censoring anything!

I don't know what you mean about the participation agreement, sorry.

I think this thread isn't quite going the way we might hope. Thank you to Fred for bringing this up for discussion. Today's environment makes this a sincere challenge in the format of a travel forum. I think it's best that we close it here. I may make some edits if guidelines haven't been followed.