helping fellow travelers, unsolicited advice and the RS Helpline

There is always a way to soften a response even if you think the OP's ideas are totally insane. There is no need for snide and condescending answers, and most definitely no need for it when much of the advice given here is simply personal preference. As far as factually incorrect info... there is a way to correct it without a snippy attitude. But, it is the height of arrogance to say "I did this, don't bother" be it Pisa, or the Romantic Road or Stonehenge,etc. Just because I didn't find something to be appealing doesn't mean someone else might not love it. There are ways to bring up why you didn't like it, without the blanket statement for everyone... don't go! And, I won't even get into the moneybelt or train vs. car issues. If there were only one way to travel we wouldn't need this Helpline. And yes, I have gotten a few rude answers here as well... and while other sites might be more rude.. that is no reason to condone it here. Like what we learned in kindergarten... if you can't be nice...just keep quiet.

Andre L., Great question! I'd have to give some thought before providing a detailed answer, but I have a few initial thoughts. I believe it's important to provide posters with the very best information possible, whether that differs from their ideas or not. The OP always has the choice of using the information (or a portion of it) or ignoring it. There's a very well travelled group here with an incredible base of knowledge, so it seems reasonable to pass on information if it will help others to have a good trip. Especially with novice travellers, there are often lots of things (and some potential pitfalls) they may not be aware of, so pointing these things out is beneficial and may help them avoid problems and have a better holiday. Of course, whatever information is provided should be done in a respectful way, rather than berating them and making them regret even asking the question. I don't agree with the "not being helpful" Private Messages that you've received. None of us know what information will be useful for posters, so let them figure it out. If they need clarification, they'll ask! If I can think of anything else, I'll post another reply. Cheers!

It depends. If they have already purchased a rail pass or their flight tickets, etc. telling them they have made a bad choice can come off badly, making the OP feel bad about their choices. I have seen some posters practically berate others for being so "stupid" as to buy or do ........ This is uncalled for. For others that have a big list, or are struggling to decide where, when, or how, I figure they have come on here and asked, so give them an answer. If it isn't the answer they want to hear that isn't really our problem. Some people who have never been to Europe think they can "do" Paris in a day. Believing that all the tourist attractions are lined up, just waiting to be visited, one after the other. Everyone has different traveling styles and if you come on and ask about renting a car, I might tell you that taking the train will fit your schedule and budget better, but I won't berate you for renting a car. If someone wants to take the train, the same thing, why tell them driving is so much better, that they are missing out on things by not driving a car. People should feel good about their vacation decisions, and gently informing them about other options is fine, but not smacking them upside the head with them. I have seen peoples excitement about their trip get totally deflated by one rude remark. That does happen here a lot when folks think they have the only way & the best style of travel. There is something for all of us to learn. I find new places to explore all the time from some of the other posters.

It's important to remember that the OP is not the only one reading the thread. We have a lot of lurkers here who do research, and they also deserve good answers. Being tactful is best. Saying, "A rail pass is not always the best money spent, but since you have one, here's the answer to your question..." is much better than praising their rail pass purchase. Another example-a poster has purchased flights into Heathrow, and 6 hours later departs from Gatwick. They are excited to see a bit of London, and ask the best way to see the Changing of the Guard and tour the Tower. They then get mad when told they'll see nothing of London, and will be lucky to make their flight. We should tell them the truth, and maybe someone else will avoid that same mistake.

Andre,Excellent thoughts and question. I often want to make a snide remark so often don't answer. Also if the question has already been answered, I don't usually repeat the answer unless it's one that would just reinforce that it's the best choice. I think the OPs should be helped to realize that their plans are challenging or impossible otherwise why have the Helpline? The difficult thing though is using tact in responding. I won't repeat exactly what Jo and Karen have said because they've taken the words right out of my mouth.

Even if a poster has already purchased a rail pass, if you think it was a mistake to have done so then you should say as much. Last year my step-daughter while planning a trip to Italy for her mother and herself, bought rail passes, at great expense I might add. I got her to check the point-to-point price of the train trips they planned and she was shocked at how much money she was losing with the pass. But, she was able to get a substantial refund on the passes from RailEurope, which is why alerting a poster to this possibility is a kindness.

I know you were looking for answers from Senior Contributors but......I wanted to say a few words. As a poster, it can be a bit intimidating asking a question because you're just not sure of the reaction you will get. Some of the questions posted may seem silly to many seasoned travellers, but to those of us posting they are important. I'm sure that many questions have been answered before, but looking through the thousands of asked and answered questions can be overwhelming. One thing that I have noticed is that if a poster has been slammed down by a negative piece of advice or made to feel their question is stupid there is always a Seasoned Traveller who ads a supportive remark to the poster that takes the sting away. Getting help on the Helpline is really important to the poster otherwise we wouldn't ask. Please keep up your sage advice, it really is appreciated.

I am not a senior contributor, but I have been using this site for 7 years and have completed 4 trips using information gleaned from it. Sometimes I get "more" from the "unhelpful" responses than I do from the answer to the original question. All information can be used or discarded at will. Keep up the good work.

As others have said, it's mostly about tact. This helpline isn't very helpful if we don't give accurate information and advice. There are certain travel myths that are oft repeated by novice travelers and it's easy to get snippy or lose patience because we see the same thing again and again. Most of us have spent months or years in Europe; most travelers will go to Europe once or twice in their lives. The same issue might apply to correcting other poster's advice. People sometimes post advice that isn't accurate or factually good. That needs to be corrected but we should be tactful to avoid alienating otherwise helpful posters. One of my pet peeves here are posters that ignore the intention of the OP or don't bother to read followup posts. If an OP says they want to drive and see the countryside; we shouldn't be telling them how wrong they are and they should just take the train. It may be fine to point out why driving might not be the best idea or adjust their expectations, but if they followup saying that they must visit long-lost Uncle Leo in a little town, it's fustrating that the next poster keeps telling them to take the train.

I wouldn't be considered a senior contributor unless you used my age as a measurement. You have to have patience with people who haven't traveled before and don't know how to research their trip. I have always thought it would be a good idea to somehow, someplace post the final and stock answer to some questions, for instance, how to handle money, are rail passes a good deal, and the one that always intertains me, what to do on a honeymoon. If you get annoyed with someone's question go do something else for a while, like take a nap. Life is too short to blow a gasket over a question you don't like.
The fact is, I nearly didn't post on this one.

This is one of the most polite and well-behaved forums on the internet (one of the reasons I waste so much time here). If people can get upset on THIS forum because they don't like receiving unsolicited advice from a bunch of enthusiastic volunteers... then God help them in the rest of their endeavors. BTW, Rothenburg isn't as unique as advertised, the Romantic Road isn't intended to offer a particularly scenic drive, Baden-Baden is only one of about 100 mineral spa resorts in Germany, Hasselt has the best Christmas market in Europe, stay in Ghent instead of Brugge if you're younger than 30, Scandinavia is awesome, you don't need a reservation on German ICE trains but get one anyway, don't waste your time in the Berner Oberland during the shoulder season, the Dolomites represent only a small part of Italy's much larger Alpine territory, don't even consider staying or even stopping in Reutte, driving on the German Autobahn network isn't nearly as fast or enjoyable as you might imagine, don't miss the Russian Museum in St. Petersburg, western Europe isn't as cold in the winter as you might think, the Dutch countryside isn't nearly as "fairy tale" as your imagination might suggest, Brussels offers a lot more than a pretty square and a statue of a peeing boy if you make a little effort, stop in Lindau for lunch when driving between Munich and Switzerland, Hamburg is awesome, rural scenery is usually gray and overcast in the cooler months, ... let's see, I think that about summarizes my usual bits of unsolicited advice.

Some of the above comment re courtesy are really well taken. I didn't ask another question for a very long time, after an early experience. I wanted to know if anyone had stayed on retreat with the monastic community at Mont S Michel. Got an incredibly rude, derisive, and absoluate wrong/ignorant response about not being able to sleep at MSM, the Eiffel tower, the Louvre, or any other national monument. And when I wrote back, noting that it is an active monastery, and even provided the website link, that person and someone else got really insulting about my "ignorance". I tried to clarify for them via PM, in hopes they wouldn't continue disseminating incorrect info. I finally stopped responding, and stopped looking at this site for quite a while. (And as an aside, MSM is an AMAZING place to stay on retreat with the monks/nuns.)

Good question Andre. Like Robyn I have 'lurked' on this board for a long time before I ever posted a question or an answer and gleaned a lot of good information from both the questions and the answers, even the ones that some people may have considered unhelpful. I wouldn't worry about a personal message from someone saying your advice was not helpful, that's their opinion not necessarily everyone's - just ignore them.
When someone is confused and floundering enough to ask a question they need to be able to accept that some answers will not confirm their own preconcieved ideas and may sometimes confuse them even more. Then they can ask more questions to clarify confusing answers. It's good to get conflicting opinions on things from different posters. Very few questions only have one 'right' answer. I must say though that once I did post an answer and it was brought to my attention that my answer was incorrect (not just an opinion, but factually incorrect). In that case I quickly went in and deleted my post in order to not confuse the OP. I am not offended by that, it's helpful, as I don't want to be passing on incorrect info to anyone else. All of you 'seniors' (and newer posters too) keep up the good work. This forum is so very helpful.

Oh, and by the way, where's that LIKE button for Tom's answer.

@ Nancy :-)

@Tom, "don't waste your time in the Berner Oberland during the shoulder season" That may not always be true. I've travelled there a couple of times in the shoulder season (Sept./Oct.) and had a great time (as did many others). Cheers!

Ken, I would agree that September and October are great times to visit the Berner Oberland... but that's not the shoulder season. The shoulder seasons are November to early December and April to early May.

@Tom, This appears to be somewhat a difference of terminology. I've always thought of the "shoulder seasons" as May/June (spring) or September/October (fall). I found this definition at USA Today.... http://traveltips.usatoday.com/months-considered-low-season-travel-europe-55959.html Their criteria for "shoulder season" differs a bit from mine. The shoulder season in the Berner Oberland may differ between skiers and summer travel enthusiasts. Will have to ponder this for awhile..... Cheers!

Andre, just answer as you usually do, I was always told the only stupid question is the one not asked. Agree that some other forums are horrible, saying nasty things. This forum is really polite, for the most part.

Without trying to "butter you up" as the American phrase goes, Andre I think you've always been helpul to me on this site. This is a great resource for those of us who travel more in our dreams than in reality. When we do get the rare opportunity to get to Europe, it can be a very daunting project. I, for one, really look to the senior posters on this site, especially those living in Europe(Andre, Tom, Sarah etc.) I would much rather take honest criticism, albeit sometimes terse, about my itinerary than someone telling me what I want to hear. I've had my itinerary completely shot down and rebuilt thanks to the honest feedback of this forum.
While there is no need to take away anyone's dignity, please don't stop giving good information for those of us still a little wet behind the ears travel wise.

James I have never thought any "senior" poster here ( and that btw is a funny label , I don't use it myself) has ever acted like they thought they were most important then any other poster, I do think some posters have some amazing information and really appricieate it when they are able to help people out, I mean train schedules and routing,( Nigel and Tim always have good train advice) we have some whizes here for sure. Its a shame you perceivce some posters that way, or is it just people who disagree with you? I don't think you need to have a chip on your shoulder about post count either, it means only that a poster has more free time then you, or perhaps have been on the forums for many years.. its doesn't make them any better at giving advice on places they haven't been or on things they haven't done. As for Andres question , it is interesting. I am blunt if the question is blunt. So if you ask "Is Pisa worth a trip" I can honestly say from my own experience and opinion, "nope it wasn't for me" but that doesn't mean if someone posts " I really want to go to Pisa, how do I get there ?" that I then would say "don't bother" , I would likely ignore that post.

You'll have to forgive my penchant for lists; 1) As previously said, we have to remember that for every author of a question there are many lurkers who are reading along because they were curious about the same thing. If you are answering or giving an opinion, you are giving it to them as well. 2) Tact is a wonderful thing. Too many people act with a "hey, I just call it as I see it" dismissiveness to their own rudeness and too few people bother to call them out when they see that behavior. It's not quaint or colorful. It's just rude, crude and/or mean. 3) One can easily identify with lists of pat responses to too-common questions (like Tom's list) but we also have to allow for the possibility that it is ok for a person to come to Europe and see just the stereotype things. It is our task to help them accomplish what they want to accomplish (sanely) without judging them. If they have two days available in Belgium between Amsterdam and Paris, it is perfectly fine to spend 6 hours in Brussels and a day in Brugge. And a person who heard from a friend that Rothenburg was quaint, doesn't need to be chided for how "overlooked" (put any German city name here that expats think Rick Steves unfairly omits) is. 4) Having said that (#3), I think it is important for us to "police" novice choices that are borderline insane. People cannot be told frequently enough that they don't have to see all of Europe in one 15-day trip, or that it might be unwise to expect to rent a car and drive six hours after a 10-hour trans-Atlantic flight, or that no, you can't see a bit of Paris during your six-hour layover at CDG. But we can certainly police politely.

I am a new user to this site and quickly learned that if you don't ask the right questions, you will get the wrong answers. So I have tried to ask my questions in a way that will get the answers I am looking for without allowing people to comment on things I am not looking for help on. I have found this site to be EXTREMELY helpful. I have been a big RS fan for many years and have been to Europe 10 times and consider myself a pretty good independent traveler. However, until I found this site, I kept wishing Rick would produce a "Graduate Course" of travel skills. Lucky for me, this site is it. I continue to learn each and every time I come here. Having said all that, I do agree that some posters are borderline rude and get off track from what the OP was asking. Hopefully posters can do a better job of asking more specific questions and responders can do a better job of answering those questions. Thanks to everyone for being part of the Rick Steves Graduate school of Travel Skills!!!

Andrew, keep it up. and thanks

For the most part this is one of the nicest boards around. The collective knowledge here is priceless for travelers and it is fantastic the way ya'll give of your time and experience. That being said... Please remember that everyone's goal or travel style may not be the same as yours. While some of you can't fathom seeing 9 or 10 cities in a 4 week trip - we do two kinds of trips - a quick stop in an area to catch the highlights - its enough to let us figure out if we want to return a place for a longer stay. When we find an area or city we like awe'll come back on a future trip and spend more time there. It is far more helpful to ask a few more questions about a poster's goals than to make a generalized statement condemning their plan as too ambitious. It's funny - from a lot of posts here I was getting the feeling that many are "anti-train" - I will frequently read - "just fly from here to there - its so much faster and cheaper". Me - I'd rather take a beating than fly these days - there is nothing pleasant about it. The train trip is part of the journey for me - I have had some great conversation with folks on the train - doesn't happen on plane usually, I have also stopped in some great places along the way just because we were on the train to somewhere and decided to get off in a town for lunch or to stop for the day. Thanks for all of your help!

My gripe - I think a day and a half in Paris can be perfect. I like to be on the move - we routinely never stay in a city more than two nights. The difference maybe is we get up early and move to our next place and try to keep train rides fairly short. Maybe not for everyone but we see what we want and if we like we know we will return. Munich - I can get cheap flights in and out and we have been there twice but just a half day each time. Love the city and the beer but I've never been there for more than a long afternoon.

I think the context provided by most posters is as important, if not moreso, than the answering of the specific question. After all, if we truly only stuck to the question, these boards would become pretty boring. So much good information comes out of a good answer with suggestions wrung from personal experience. This extra information is why I lurk everyday even reading questions completely unrelated to my next destination.

well...the subject says "unsolicited advice" if someone asks for information and the answer to that query is negative, then that isnt unsolicited because they asked for it.

It's an advice board. There's no such thing as "unsolicited advice" really if you're asking for advice. I think the question is more how do contributors separate out very personal opinions based on personality, travel preferences, etc from actual general opinion/advice that would be helpful to most people or specifically to the person asking the question? Also terseness is not rudeness. Rudeness is insulting or demeaning somebody. Saying, "Sorry, but your itinerary is kind of nuts" isn't really rude in my book. Saying "Your itinerary is ridiculous because you're an ignorant idiot," would be. and this:
"This is one of the most polite and well-behaved forums on the internet (one of the reasons I waste so much time here). If people can get upset on THIS forum because they don't like receiving unsolicited advice from a bunch of enthusiastic volunteers... then God help them in the rest of their endeavors." Is 100% correct. Honestly some questioners come on here with stuff they could have easily googled, expecting others to do the legwork research for them, and then respond angrily when someone tells them something they don't like. That is really rude, actually.

Well, Andre, you have a knack for introducing interesting, thought-provoking topics. As for the kind of advice we give regarding questions about seeing Rome or Paris in a day or a day and a half, it literally breaks my heart to think about it, but if that's the only amount of time someone has on the trip they're planning, a day in Paris or Rome is better than none. Hopefully they'll go back. Like several people who have posted, I stayed away from this site for months because of a criticism I got from a multi-thousand poster. I came back because this is, in my opinion, the best place to get advice based on peoples' travel experience. Most of the time.

Sarah bring up a very good point. We have had some new posters who come on here, ask us to basically plan their entire trips, look up their train schedules, tell them all the costs, estimate what money they should bring,and plan their day to day itineraries,, and then , while many do go to great lengths to help them, googling things like freaking weather in Spain in April for them etc,, they don't even say thanks,, they sometimes don't even respond, I find it super rude actually, keeping in mind this is a volunteer helpline, not a professional travel agency. And its true, if you ask for opinions, input or advice, then what you get is not really unsolicted is it? Especially when people ask for "opinions",, which some do, so what if you get some you don't like, take what you like and move on, I am not into people getting all offended and hurt by some opinions.. its not the same as calling someone an idiot when you say " I would never do that plan it sounds exhausting " .. that is an opinion, but saying " doing it that way is stupid" is rude.. I do try and acknowledge people have different travel styles , so what works for them may be 10 places in 20 days, but I have no problem saying it would exhaust me and I would find it onerous keeping to that pace.

Absolutely agree with Sarah and Pat. If those I must say ignorant "askers" would look just at Favorite Links on Travelers Helpline website sometimes all their questions are answered right there. And then there is google.
As for unsolicited advice: yes, few times I noticed it here. For example somebody is asking about Bratislava and some of the answers was: Did you think about Budapest? It's not that far. So that I would consider unsolicited advice.

There are five kinds of unsolicited advice. Four suck and the person giving any one of them should spend the afternoon on a dunking stool. 1. Andre's kind: where the person asked a question but didn't understand the implications or was clearly headed toward a pitfall. Closely related is the reply to the effect that 'as long as you're going by there, did you know that this exists?' 2. The own-agenda kind: How to I drive from A to B? Take the train! or I don't like art museums, what should I do with a spare afternoon in Paris? Not to spend it at the Louvre whould be a sin! 3. The busy-body kind: How can I entertain my kids in London? Leave them home! 4. The really stupid kind: What about . . . ? I don't know, but I just googled this . . . .! 5. The utterly stupid kind: What do you know about this hotel? Nothing, but have you checked This Website?

"4. The really stupid kind: What about . . . ? I don't know, but I just googled this . . . .!" But if we remember, the guy who was responsible for hundreds (thousands?) of those types of answers would never preface anything with "I don't know." Hell, often he wouldn't even claim he googled it, he would just copy and paste it and pretend he wrote it.

@Zoe.. glad you decided to return and ignore the rude poster... I have enjoyed your advice and insight...

I think the best reply here is "If people can get upset on THIS forum because they don't like receiving unsolicited advice from a bunch of enthusiastic volunteers ... then God help them in the rest of their endeavors". At the Traveler's Helpline in this website, the webmaster provided rules (or commandments or decrees or directives or edicts or fiats or precepts or interdictions or proscriptions) to all persons posting a question or reply at The Traveler's Helpline. It can be read at this website. In each section of The Traveler's Helpline, on the page on which is the list of all discussion threads that were posted, below the words "General Europe" (in big blue letters) or the title of an other section of The Traveler's Helpline, is the words (in very small black letters) : "before you post, read our Community Guidelines". Click on the words "Community Guidelines" (blue or red letters).

The use of the term "senior" contributors in this question caught my eye. I would like to add that we should all be aware that terms like "senior", "regulars", "frequent posters", and other such terms are really quite meaningless in determining the value of the advice given. A high post count could possibly mean that the person has posted thousands of bits of fantastic advice. It could also mean that the person is simply very chatty and enjoys adding two cents' worth in a discussion, regardless of whether it is relevant to a travel question. It could mean only that the person has a great deal of free time to spend on the internet. There are many posters with high post counts here who do give a lot of fine advice, but there are also some who rarely contribute anything other than snide remarks. Then there are some who rarely post but who contribute some valuable insight when they do. Perhaps my remarks are a bit off the direct topic. I may have interpreted it incorrectly, but it just seemed to me that the question, being directed to "senior" contributors, implies a false division between those who contribute a lot and therefore are presumed to be expert and those who are new to travel.

Love that insight from D.D.! As to unsolicited advice, there's the recent topic "Traveling with a large family" in which the OP included gratuitous information so provocative that I'm not surprised it sparked some ancillary comment. (I could go on for paragraphs about the situation as disclosed in the original and subsequent posts. But by a terrific effort of will, I won't.) Kudos to everyone here who somehow manages to keep on point. People can be so wildly assorted and unpredictable, and sometimes much more interesting than "should I reserve seats on the train from Grubbing-under-Trestle to York and is there a luggage rack on that service?" However, IMO the overall standards of this discussion forum mean that even a neurotic snotty Nebraskan should have her travel questions answered, while people politely ignore, as much as possible, the background human interest stuff.

Suz, nicely said. As a Canadian I was loathe to say what you expressed about a certain mommy in Nebraska.

Andre, I have both offered information on here and received a lot of very valuable help. I've also learned good things from answers that might have strayed a bit from the original question. So Thank you to you and everyone on here! Give yourselves a pat on the back and if the odd person doesn't find the generous advice here helpful, well, they're free to go somewhere else, aren't they?!

How many of us wanted to respond to the above referenced thread, but heaved a heavy sigh and tried to be nice? I only did it about 20 times. And just how nice was I if I'm bringing it up now?

"How many of us wanted to respond to the above referenced thread, but heaved a heavy sigh and tried to be nice?" Quite a few of us I'd say. To borrow Suz's phrase, by a terrific effort of will I resisted. Wasn't easy though. I was astounded by the op.

I disagree with most of you, I think the above referenced thread is a perfect example of Andre's question. That woman came looking for travel advice and yet certain people couldn't resist making comments about how her and her husband chose to raise their kids. Unsolicited advice that pertains to travel is fine but unsolicited advice about people's private lives is unacceptable and uncalled for. That she responded the way she did is not surprising, I would have done the same if someone I didn't know presumed to lecture me on how to raise my kids.

How would the board as a whole have responded if a 40 yr old woman said that she and 5 other women were going to Europe. They were terrified of crime, even neurotic, and wanted to all stay in the same room, and would only go to the restroom in pairs. Would we have humored her and given her the names of sextuplet rooms, or would we have tried to get her to lighten up and stop the paranoia? Which, by the way, is in the spirit of RS. One reason he is so successful is the gentle confidence and encouragement he gives. I think she got much less response than she would have without this thread running concurrently.

I think there are gentler, kinder ways to explain that normally, parents with grown children do not need to stay in the same room while traveling to be safe. And yes, any person over 18 is an adult, unless there are health issues to be considered. This is a mother who has safety issues of her own, who has probably never traveled to Europe and has read all the pick-pocket & scam warnings over on the Graffiti Wall. She has translated that to mean that Europe is crime-ridden and a scary, dangerous place to be, and passed those same fears onto her daughters. There were probably better ways to have let her know that she could rest easy and go ahead and book separate rooms for her daughters.

Sometimes some of us on this board who have traveled or lived overseas need to remember that traveling to a foreign country where you don't speak the language and don't know the customs, etc. can be scary for a lot of people, especially the first time.

@Karen... 'gentle confidence and encouragement'... perfect. Great mantra for raising children ... or for encouraging anyone who has fears
about foreign travel.

I almost always avoid itinerary questions - mostly because I don't want to rain on people's parade (and because there are plenty of other contributors here who are more than willing to rain on someone's parade). I try to answer specific questions where I have some specific experience that might help. I have a travel style that works for me. My style has changed somewhat over time and, I'm sure, will continue to evolve. I try to remember that everyone doesn't have to use (or even like) my travel techniques. The PMs I get are usually to ask even more specific questions. I don't get too many negative PMs about my posts (until now?) so I must not be doing too bad.

Since I am poster in question , all I have to say is you have no idea how deep and bizarre this ladies fears were. She pmed me and told me I knew "nothing about crime since you are from good ole Canada"( direct quote) . She then proceeded to educate me about "kidnapping, rape " and "white slavery". Her fears were way beyond listening to "gentle encouragement". Her"children" were not handicapped, in fact she made it clear her 23 yr old was studying for her doctorate, so I would also assume not too immature either.. but her fears were off the scale comapared to anything I have seen on this or other forums.. Questions about safety are not unusual, we have all seen them before, and usually posters are relieved when assured just keeping an eye on their stuff should be enough. But this lady had very strong preconcieved ideas and was not dissuaded my any of the posts, including the "gentle ones".. in fact her ignorance about her neighbors to the north was stunning..( we have no crime in Canada??).
So yes, I went over the line, but to no avail, this lady still beleives she is taking her children into some sort of crimminal hotspot and that her daughters personal safety was at great risk.. and parents like me evidently just don't love thier kids.. I didn't know about the white slavery problem in London, Paris and Cinque Terra but glad this lady is on guard for it.

"That woman came looking for travel advice and yet certain people couldn't resist making comments about how her and her husband chose to raise their kids" Rik, I agree with you totally.

"the OP included gratuitous information so provocative that I'm not surprised it sparked some ancillary comment" That is the point. The op is the one who changed it from the usual asking of a travel question when she unnecessarily included very bizarre information. For a mother to refer to her 4 adult children as "semi-adult" and wants them all to sleep together says a lot about this woman... it's not as simple as being fearful of crime in an unknown place... there is something psychologically wrong with her. The op chose to post this gratuitous, personal info. Obviously because she thinks her behavior is normal... it is not. Because it is not normal, people should not ignore it. I think anyone that called her out on it did the right thing - however way they did it.

Yes, Susan,
you are very right. She obviously suffers from paranoia maybe even paranoid schizophrenia but that would have to be diagnosed by psychiatrist.

Perhaps the Yenta Patrol should chill out. The OP in question initially took the time to post on 1/31 thanking people for giving her some constructive advice and thanking those who chose not to act like they knew how better to parent her children (adult, semi-adult, whatever... does it really matter if they aren't yours to begin with?). It could have just ended there, but the Yentas had to pipe up with a litany of reasons why this woman was a crappy mother. I've noticed the majority of the threads started about "safety" seem to come from people who don't live in large metropolitan areas (this woman was from Nebraska!). Is it really so strange that someone who probably lives out in the middle of some prairie and whose children haven't traveled extensively (abroad or within the United States) might view the city as a place where bad things happen? Is that perception accurate? Not really. Plenty of bad things happen in the suburbs and the country, too. They just don't get as much media coverage. And who would have sat through "Taken" or "Taken 2" with Liam Neeson if he had been running around Nebraskan wheat fields chasing after the guys who kidnapped his daughter to sell her into white slavery (ummm...no one!)? The worst advice she got was to go rent an apartment. I don't typically advocate hostel stays for 6 adults, but instead of pointing out how she might be a crazy paranoid schitzo, why not plug the hostel as a way for her (and her "kids") to see just how many other 18-25 year olds there are safely traveling about Europe solo or in pairs? It would have been a way for the semi-adults to talk to their peers about what it's like to get out there and see that all is not evil, doom and gloom.

While I agree that a hostel stay may have helped open OPs or at least OPs childrens eyes, I do not agree that the worst advice was to rent an apartment.. I think thats a bit like the pot calling the kettle black just pronouncing someone ( actually mulitple posters ) advice as the worst.. It was not, if looking at it from a economy point of view an apartment makes a lot more sense then six adults paying the per person rate at a hostel. So see , while I do not agree with all of your post, I can see some of the good. I do not recall telling anyone else that their advice was the "worst ever" ..

Thank you Ilja and Ceidleh.

Frankly, I'm going to respond to what an OP says, and that includes information that isn't relevant to their travel question if I think I have advice that will be helpful is listened to. Some see that as overstepping, but if OPs don't want commentary on a subject, they shouldn't include it in their post. That said, I try to keep my unsolicited advice relevant. I pointed out that the places she's visiting are perfectly safe, which is true and if taken in the spirit it was offered, should be a relief to the OP, not the source of more frustration, and gave her the very good advice that being overprotective and spending too much 'family time' together 100% of the time while traveling as an adult family group can often lead to more stress and fighting. Nothing about her parenting skills, just some actual travel advice from someone who's been there (with the overprotective parents, that is).

I'm confused. I just read through that thread about the large family and didn't see any posts that were inappropriate to me. Did some of them get deleted by the webmaster? It seemed to me that the OP kept bringing up her thanks for not offering parenting advice, which is odd. But not so odd if people had been commenting on it. I thought her opening post was benign. A bit TMI about the children being neurotic and sharing trips to the restroom (though many ladies do this). But every post I read seemed to try and reassure her that there was little reason for them to feel unsafe. And Pat's post here about her PM suggests the OP is either quite neurotic or a troll. Which leads me to wonder how many OP's are really just trolls hoping to get a rise out of us. It seems rare but still I sometimes read a thread and wonder. In those cases, I ignore it and try not to bite...

Posts were deleted and edited .

I'm really annoyed with the non-consensual editing, honestly. It's removing your words and thus context from the conversation. If a post violates the rules, the webmaster should delete the post and warn the offender. ively editing someone's words without their consent is something I've NEVER seen in any other forum and is pretty messed up IMO. Just delete the damn post if it's against the rules, or leave it and give the author a warning. Honestly it makes me not want to post on this board at all, I choose what I say carefully (and mean it sincerely) and the idea of parts of that being removed is pretty ludicrous. And again, nothing I've encountered anywhere else, and I've been a regular internet nerd for the last 17 years. Whoops, I'm off topic again. Maybe this post will be edited down to this one sentence as a result.

And the thread R.S. Murder Mystery in Turkey also disappeared.

This is kind of off topic BUT......I guess my biggest pet peeve is telling people to go places that the OP may have no interest in or may have a challenging time in (and this is hard to tell from just the original post), for example, people seem to be pushing Romania, et. al. without considering the poster, (this just happened in an old resurrected thread)I mean I am all for getting people to expand their horizons or whatever but....I think people should be realistic (which is hard to do when you don't know the poster or unless it is blatantly obvious like the Nebraska lady).
I guess my issue is kind of that you cannot always know someones motivation for travel. I mean, I like to go to cemeteries when I go somewhere, other people would not want to do that perhaps, should I still tell them about a cool cemetery? Maybe someone just wants to go to London and Paris and doesn't care about anything else. Maybe they are just checking off boxes on a list. Maybe they don't give a rip about history or mountains or whatever, I guess what I am trying to say is that unless the poster is specific it is hard to NOT give unsolicited advice. Does any of this make any sense ?? (I am tired).

You make total sense Danni. The more specific, and pertinent, the info a poster asking for help gives, the better the answers will be.

I guess my biggest pet peeve is telling people to go places that the OP may have no interest in There is an active thread now for a woman wishing to drive in northern and northeastern Spain and the Costa Brava region. She wants advice on some of the towns to visit and places to stay. While she did mention Costa del Sol in her OP, she later posted that it was off the list of possibilities. Yet half the posts have been people posting about Andalucia, Madrid, etc... This case seems to be the classic of two not-uncommon things here: (1) I didn't read the OP closely or the rest of the thread for OP s and (2) I've never been where you want to go so I'll tell you about someplace I have been. Case 2 addresses pretty directly Andre's OP - but in a different way. To me it really isn't helpful to avoid the OP's question and instead focus on something different, especially when the reason is obvious that the poster simply doesn't know the answer.

Wow, this makes for some very interesting reading! I had to get another beer.
IMHO, I think this helpline is a pretty tame forum, but sometimes, ya'know, you just have to let someone have it, in a nice way of course. And Sarah, don't go! We just got Zoe back, (after someone posted a really hurtful comment directed at her.) I try to stay positive and be helpful, but I think it helps if you give a little pushback to someone to at least make them rethink or clarify their travel plans if you know in your heart of hearts it's just not doable. That's just me. And what's up with this editing junk? Did I wake up in North Korea? Just asking....