Help with europe travel plans Part 2

Nice! This will be much easier. Perhaps you can post your current thinking about the itinerary, so people can comment on that and maybe suggest places to stay in addition to the ones your are considering. Hopefully people will comment here rather than on the other one which is now up to 5 pages! I think Ron had some comments about luggage that are valuable. I agree with the packing cubes (use Eagle Creek not Rick's) but I wonder why he doesn't like the lower-priced Rick Steves backpack on sale here for $64.

From Ron of Missouri, posted on the other thread: "I recommend one more travel accessory, available from Rick Steves' "Travel Store" at this website. It is the Lamb skin travel wallet. It is a coin pouch, it has two zippered compartments. I like its size. I think the coin pouch that was for sale at some AAA travel offices is too long. Coins and a Credit card or Debit card can be in the coin pouch. Thus, it is not necessary to pull out the neck wallet or money belt, from under clothes, every time a credit card or Debit card is used." Don't forget we are talking about high school age girls, and most expenses will be covered by the adults chaperoning the group. They probably will be advised to carry a minimum of cash. Felicia---have you gotten them started on pasport applications? Don't leave that to the last minute!

Sasha : I did not say I don't like the Rick Steves' "Classic Back Door Bag", priced at $63.95. It has straps that can be used for carrying the bag as a back pack, the straps are tucked into a wide pocket at the back of the bag. And the Outdoor Products essential carry-on bag that I mentioned has straps like that, tucked into a wide pocket at the back of the bag. When I said I do not recommend bringing a back pack, I was thinking of a large back pack (designed for carrying a tent and sleeping bag and cook stove, ...). That kind of back pack is O.K., if it is allowed in an airport baggage department. That kind of back pack is not necessary, in my opinion.

Just a note on the RS packing cubes.... a few here don't like them, but I personally love them. I like the larger size as it makes my bag really easy to find things. I use one for tops and one for bottoms and a smaller one for personal items and maybe one or two things loose in the bottom of my suitcase. Also, I want a bag that has wheels. It allows me to put my camera/computer bag on top of the rolling bag and wheel the whole mess through the airport. I have tried every method of suitcases/backpacks/dufflebags, etc. and for me the rolling works best.

thanks. I mis-read your post. I thought you recommended the "convertible" bag over the "classic." I totally agree with you on th estandard backpack. One meant for trekking in the mountains is not what you want fo rtravel.

ok. for packing. my daughter thinks she wants a "real" backpackers bag. The kind to trek, carry your sleeping, bag, tent, back packers, stove, etc. She realizes this is not the best choice for this trip and it is unlikely to be able to carry on. However, it also is a bit much to buy such trip specific luggage so I am just gathering info and choices for the girls to consider. Some girls think they want a rolling duffle bag. I saw a black, rick steves carry on bag that had back pack straps that could pull out of a pocket and they also had the hip belt. It was at a local store for $80. Is that the one you guys are recommending? I think I can borrow that one from a friend. About the packing cubes, I actually would not have even considered spending money on them. Does it help organize your stuff that much to be worth it? Will ziplock bags work as well?

This is a clarification, not a heated argument, pertaining to Terry's reply about Packing Cubes. When I said I prefer the Packing Cubes that are thinner than Rick Steves' Packing cubes, I was thinking about putting the Packing Cubes in a bag that is of carry-on size. That is the size bag that I use as my primary bag for a trip to Europe. In that size of bag, if two of the Rick Steves Packing cubes (14 inches x 11 inches x 5 inches) are put into the bag, there is not space for the other stuff in the bag. In the advertisement for Rick Steves' packing cubes, it says the set of three Packing Cubes (one large, and two small) is ideal for putting in one of the larger travel bags.

The current trip plans: June 9 arrive zurich go to adleboden to stay at "Our Chalet" June 9-11 see Switzerland. Day trips from chalet. June 12 Go to Italy. NOt sure where yet. maybe 1 location to day trip from. Considering Verona and Monselice. OR June 12 go to Florence June 13 see Florence June 14 go to Venice June 15 see Venice squeeze in verona somewhere or skip it. June 16 head to Munich/ salzburg area. considering stay in Prien, Germany and day tripping to salzburg, munich and Dachau OR June 16 Go to Salzburg June 17 See Salzburg June 18 See Salzburg June 19 Go to Munich, close so should be time to see some it June 20 Day trip to Dachau-Be prepared to have ruined day June 21 Do something happy to note end trip on such a sad note, shop, prepare for return, etc. June 22 is a friday, return home. So, one things about staying in Prien for the whole time in the munich/salzburg area is that we can keep option open and not commit to staying in a certain place. We could travel to Prien on Sat. June 16 and go to Dachau on Sunday June 17th( assuming it is open on Sunday, someone mentioned it was closed on mondays). then we could go to salzburg 1 day and munich the next and then decided what and where we want to go back to, it we still want to day trip to Fussen for the castle or another castle in the area. Also, in the little info I have had time to look at, it might be possible for us to have an apt type place with kitchen facility in Prien. However, I think we will like exploring, biking, etc. around salzburg so it could be nice to stay there a few nights. Looking forward to what everyone's thoughts are for this updated plan.
thanks

Hello Felicia. I think the rolling duffle bag is one of the most undesirable travel bags. When empty, it weighs 15 pounds. ugh ! If a travel bag is a check-in bag (to the airplane's baggage compartment) it will be given to the airline at the flight check-in counter. Thus, the bag will not be hauled to the departure gate. If a carry-on bag, of maximum size, is hauled to the flight departure gate, that could be a very long distance to walk, but the big airports have carts that can be rented (it costs one U.S. Dollar) for hauling the bag from the airline flight check-in area to the flight departure gate. I prefer to use a carry-on bag (as my primary bag) that does not have wheels. I can put that bag in a cart that I rent. Walking a long distance, pushing the cart (it is not very big or heavy) is much more pleasant than carrying the bag. I do not want to carry into the airplane's passenger compartment a carry-on bag that has wheels, because of my fear that the bag with wheels and a handle could not fit through the airline's bag sizing box, and thus an airline employee would refuse to let me carry that bag into the airplane. Felicia, in your group's trip to Europe, if one person uses a check-in bag, I think there is no reason for all of the other people in the group to not use a check-in bag. Arriving at the destination airport, they would wait for the one person to get her bag from the baggage carousel, anyway. But I do not think this is a big issue.

Felicia... for me packing cubes do make it so much easier and I have done ziplock bags as well, but its harder to take stuff in and out of the bags. I always do carry on and use the 3 cubes for most everything except my small make-up case. If the cost is a consideration there are some really reasonable rolling type duffle bags that would be fine for this trip, available at TJMaxx or other discount stores. Small wheels and soft sided and very light. I just bought one as my RS bag is about done for and its a lot lighter....not as sturdy, but thats okay, I am more concerned about the weight.
I am not talking about a huge camping type duffle bag... I think mine weighs about 3-4 lbs and is under 22" long.

Felicia, you asked about the purpose for using packing cubes. It is some people's personal preference, not a necessity. I use a carry-on size bag as my primary bag. I put eight sets of underwear, and eight paris of socks, in a total of two packing cubes (3 inches thick) into the bag. I could not put eight sets of underwear and eight pairs of socks into that bag, if that clothes were not in packing cubes. Those clothing items are compressed in the packing cubes. When Rick Steves, in his video of how to pack for a trip to Europe, recommended using a carry-on bag as a primary bag, he said : put three sets of underwear in the bag. And wash clothes often, in Europe. Some travelers do that. They wash underwear and socks at a sink in a hotel room, once every two or three days. If underwear is washed in a hotel room sink, and if the underwear will be dry the next morning, that underwear must be made of a synthetic cloth, not 100 % cotton. Synthetic cloth is less comfortable to wear. If a travel bag is bigger than carry-on size, using packing cubes may not be necessary. But many travelers, including me, like using packing cubes, because when most items are taken out of a bag, and put into the bag, it is easier and quicker if the underwear and socks are in packing cubes. And yes, some other plastic bag could be used for that purpose. The two packing cubes, that I mentioned, are a perfect size, for me. The two packing cubes are placed at the "bottom" of my carry-on bag (it is actually the side of the bag).

In Salzburg, you'll probably want to stick to sightseeing. For biking, hiking and other outdoor activities, Prien looks like an ideal place. 70 km of bike path around Chiemsee Lake?: http://tourismus.prien.de/en/main/active.htm The "Chiemgauer Radhaus" bike shop is at the Prien train station. Bikes go for 9€/day: Chiemgauer Radhaus Bahnhofplatz 6, 83209 Prien, Germany +49 8051/4631 ? http://www.chiemgauer-radhaus.de/html/verleih.html

Verona is right on your way from Venice to Munich, as the main train line runs Verona to Innsbruck to Munich. So you could squueze in a night at Verona there. Or you could take the other route, which goes from Venice Mestre by Bus to Villach, and then to Salzburg. This might make sense if you want to put Munich at the end for flying home. If your daughter wants a hybrid backpack that she can use for both camping/ trekking/backpacking and for travel, take a look at the Kelty Redwing 3100. This is a basic and practical backpack that can be used for overnight backpack trips but is not technical and complicated with so many external straps that you cannot also use it for travel. My son used his for numerous backpacking and hut to hut cycling trips, as well as 3 trips to Europe. Packing everything into this one pack may be a challenge for a teen girl, but my son had no problems and always looked great. Ziplock bags can be used instead of packing cubes for the smaller things, like underwear and tops/tees. Larger articles like pants can be folded and laid flat on the bottom of the pack. This is reasonable if you want to avoid buying extras like packing cubes.

Russ, the tourism site you posted for Prien has all the girls favorite activities listed in one spot. Even horseback! They like sailing, climbing, rappelling, biking, roller blades. That looks hard to beat and seems a nice note to end on. How long will it take to get to the airport in Munich from Prien?

The back pack my oldest daughter likes is the osprey ariel 65 for women. I'm not sure it is a good choice for this trip. You can buy a duffel type bag to put it in for flying, etc. to keep the straps contained, clean, etc... It is also pretty expensive so I'm not jumping up and down about it for that reason either. However, she might prefer to take some doable luggage we have or can borrow to Europe and save her money to buy the backpack she wants later. I also question the wisdom in taking a bunch of new looking luggage to Europe where we are hoping to avoid theft, pickpockets, etc. Is there a prayer we can blend in and NOT shout stupid tourist? Guess we will look pretty touristy carrying our stuff no matter what we pack in. Can we look like we wouldn't have any stuff anyone wants?
So, to squeeze in Verona? Is it worth it? If we travel from switzerland on tues to florence, I think it is 5 1/2 hours, so most of the day and stay tues night in Florence. And see Florence on wed. We could stay another day/night in Florence or go to Verona for wed and spend the night in Verona on Wed. night and then go on to Venice for 2 nights. Or we could stay in 1 place in Italy a day trip to alll the spots but the monastery Nigel found looks like a very unique and relatively affordable place to stay.

Has anyone been to Monselice. It is near Venice. Could possibly stay here and day trip??

Just so the bean counters amongst us keep the numbers right, this is post 147 in the combined thread... ;-)

Oh Nigel, do you think there are some ODC people amongst us here on the forum? People that track everything?
:-))))))

Has anyone been to Monselice. It is near Venice. Could possibly stay here and day trip?? Nope never been there. As far as "near Venice" its an hourly train that takes an hour. Not so near...

"Has anyone been to Monselice. It is near Venice. Could possibly stay here and day trip??" It's an hour - same as between Prien and Salzburg or Munich - and less than 5€ each way by direct regional train. I wish I'd been there. It looks fetching, not a real destination, just a small, attractive town with a castle and a couple of sights. And that city-run "Venetian hostel" is walkable from Monselice's station and looks like a great base. There are probably very few if any people on this board who have stopped or stayed there. Do a google images search for Monselice to get some impressions. This regular visitor there on Virtualtourist has some comments, photos and videos: http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/ad2d2/24210/ photos: http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/pb/24210/ Like Venice, you're still looking at 2 hours to reach Florence from there.

"How long will it take to get to the airport in Munich from Prien?" It's between 1:40 and 1:50. You can use Bayern tickets to get there. But that's a long journey, with a Munich connection, and you might want to have that well behind you on the morning of your departure flight, especially with a dozen Girl Scouts and moms to manage. Hallbergmoos, a village 2.5 mi from MUC., or Erding, about 6 mi., have hotels under 70 € double and either shuttles or bus transport to MUC.

That Osprey Ariel 65 is a top of the line mountaineering/trekking pack. Excellent for backpacking, but as you suspect, not as good for travel. Packs of that type are generally too tall to fit as a carry-on, and the straps and outside fasteners can cause problems when they are checked. But most airlines provide heavy-duty plastic bags to cover them when checked, so it's not really an issue. If she wants a pack like that for backpacking, it is a good investment. You might compare to the REI Venus 75, which is comparable in fit and features, but $103 instead of $249. We bought the REI for our college-age daughter and she loves it. Check your private messages, as I will be sending you one.

Here's a write-up on little Monselice: http://www.italyheaven.co.uk/veneto/monselice.html I've bumped this place to the top of my list for our trip to Italy next year. My wife and violinist sister-in-law want to return to Venice and Verona (opera buffs) and I'm eager to see Padua and to plan to tag along to the other places again. Monselice seems like a quieter, well-located, untouristy, affordable place to call home for a week or so.

Re: Monselice I've actually been there. It's a small town of minor interest, closer to Vicenza than Venice. Agree with Nigel. Not a sensible base, if Venice is where you really want to be.

Rosalyn: "It's a small town of minor interest... Not a sensible base, if Venice is where you really want to be." I think Monselice makes sense for my trip because we want to re-visit Venice for a day but don't want to deal with the crowds, the inflated prices, and the heavy tourism there for the duration of our stay, and we don't want to change hotels when we go to other places. If it's just your typical, everyday Italian sort of town, that's the sort of place I'd prefer to overnight. Then we'll probably have a look at busier Padua, and Verona, which I hear gets a heavy dose of visitors during the opera season, and retreat to our small-town place as the mood moves us. Would you describe Monselice as that sort of place - not a tourist destination, maybe a little sleepy, but with your basic services? That's the way it looks and what I'm hoping for.

felicia, I have some comments on the issue of Backpacks. I always use a Backpack on trips to Europe, as I find it the most flexible for a variety of situations. It's MUCH easier to navigate cobblestone streets, stairs and getting on & off trains. Regarding the luggage being a "beacon" for thieves, I really doubt that will be a problem. The Packs will only be visible while in transit from one place to another, and many others will also be carrying packs similar to yours, so they'll all "blend in" to some extent. A few things to consider when choosing a Pack..... 1.) I tend to prefer a panel loading Pack(with zippers) as it's not only easier to access contents but also provides a slight degree of security to discourage "opportunistic theft". The zippers can be locked while in Hostels. Top loading Packs (ie: mountaineering types) are not as good for travel IMHO (although lots of people use them). Have a look at Travel Packs from Eagle Creek (they have some models designed for women) or Osprey (the Waypoint 65 would be a good place to start). The EC Packs have a good "one point" locking system. I'd suggest a size of between 65 - 80 litres (that will depend on how light they can pack). Be sure to stress that if they pack "heavy", they'll be the ones hauling the bags all over Europe! 2.) One of the most important criteria in choosing a Pack is to be properly fitted according to torso length. Most of the weight should rest on the hips, not the shoulders. While it's typical for travellers to only wear the Pack from station to Hostel, there could be situations where the Pack is worn for longer periods of time so proper fit is important. continued.....

felicia - part 2.... The staff at REI or larger stores are usually trained in the proper fitting of Backpacks. Check the manufacturers websites to find local dealers in your area. 3.) Another feature that I really like is a detachable Daypack. When the main Pack is checked, it works well for "carry on". Some designs allow the Daypack to be worn in a front carry configuration, which makes it easier to monitor for theft. I normally "check" my main Backpack and don't find that to be a problem in the least. 4.) Another feature to consider is a stowable harness system, which allows the straps and harness to be placed behind a zippered panel during air travel. That tends to prevent them from being torn-off by airport baggage handling equipment. Many travel Packs have that feature, but AFAIK NO mountaineering packs do. Some airports can "Saran wrap" packs without the feature, or place them in a large plastic bin for the trip on the conveyor systems, but I prefer a stowable harness (both my Packs have that feature). On the subject of "locking" in Hostels, don't forget to pack a small but robust Padlock (Hostel Lockers), a Towel and Soap. Regarding your Itinerary, you've received some good suggestions. My preference would be to stay in larger centres (ie: Florence) and day trip to places like Verona. Cheers!

What would you consider the highlights to see in Venice? It might be good use of our time and resources to have a guide in both Venice and Florence. Does anyone have experience with guides in either of these places?
thanks

I think, for most people, going in an art gallery in Venice is not important. I guess you will see Italian Renaissance paintings in Florence.

Sasha, Everyone in the group has a current passport. However, I have recently leaned that I should renew the passports for my 2 daughters. They expire in oct. 2012 and I have read if the expire within 6 months of traveling to get them renewed. It does seem strange to me that the expiration date is not really the expiration date but I don't want any issues. Ron, I'll take a look at the lamb pouch for myself. I will be the one carrying the credit card, etc. and I was already thinking I might want to separate hidden pouch. maybe one around my waist and one around my neck so as to not need to get everything out at one time. In reading it seems alot of places will prefer cash to credit cards. Do you take alot of cash? travelers checks? this info may be in the book I'm reading

My top 4 suggestions for Venice, thinking of things teenage girls would appreciate, would be: 1. The ride down the Grand Canal on the vaporetto, I think it is # 1, where you see all the crumbling palaces from the water, and all the lively activity on the water; 2. San Marco basilica, especially the balcony with the horse replicas and views over the piazza. The real, well-traveled horses are inside. Turn right just inside the main door and go upstairs. Best to go early for San Marco as the lines are long. Directions for the balcony are in Rick's book. 3. The Secret Itineries tour of the doge's palace. You need advance reservations and can book a tour in English. Lots of history and very interesting. 4. The Rialto market in the morning, when it is active and full of live seafood. Credit cards are convenient and in wide use. For places that do not take credit cards, you can obtain cash at ATMs just as in the US. We prefer to visit ATMs frequently rather than carry around large amounts of cash. Do not take travelers' checks as they are outdated and difficult to cash. ATMs are everywhere. We use only ones attached to banks, during banning hors, just in case there is a problem but we have never had one.

Lola, or anyone who knows Is the gondola way expensive or worthwhile? Do you know anything about the Hotel denali? Maybe we could budget to have dessert there. It looks beautiful. If we travel from Florence to Venice, we should have a good day and a half to see Venice, spend 2 nights there and leave the following morning??
I'd like to kinda get my Venice plans settled since Nigel mentioned I need to book the place to stay asap.

Hi Gondolas can be quite expensive, there are lots and lots of threads about them in the "To The Boot" section of this Helpline. But ... with enough folk on each boat (the price is per boat, not per person) it might get manageable. felicia, I'm an old man and my memory fades... is it 7 girls and 3 adults, or 10+3? Somebody here may remember how many is a capacity of a boat? I really agree with the 4 highlights mentioned above, and the most fun, for us, is just to wander and get off the main thoroughfares. Go look for the best Gelato, and compare as you wander... The RS book lists a few...

Ron says, You do not want to get lost in Venice That's actually exactly what can really be fun. You can't really get lost, everything is on small islands. Just look up at intersections and follow the yellow arrow signs. Get off the beaten path and see what you discover. If you break up to 2 groups just have a time and place to meet up which can be easily found, like the portico on the south side of San Marco by the dueling orchestras or the top of the Rialto bridge. You and they will have a great time...

Don't take travellers cheques. They are in as much use as coins chipped out of stone. Waste of time. May I respectfully suggest that each girl take responsibility for their own spending money and passport? They are all 17 or so? Each should have a moneybelt, where the passport and all but the day's money lives all the time. No it doesn't count if they do that and then don't wear it. It will only take one girl (or mom) to lose their passport, or be pickpocketed, to pour cold water on a great trip and s-l-o-w the whole group down a lot. Don't worry about it but do take reasonable precautions. One leader should have a job to ask all other group members individually each morning after breakfast to affirm that they have their passport in their moneybelt and it on properly. The moneybelt should not be accessed in public nor during the day. Day spending money should be apart, perhaps in a pocket or small purse with nothing in it that would be missed if lost or stolen.

I loved my Osprey Ariel 65, used it 3 years in a row to various trips to Europe. But when they changed the carry on rule, we could no longer bring it on. I also didn't want to risk getting the frame all bent up by improper baggage handling so I bought a new Osprey. I now use the Osprey Porter 46. It has a waist belt, back pack straps but opens like a real suit case (not a top loader, like the Ariel). I do not have as much room anymore, but it makes me streamline the items I choose to bring with me. Plus I can carry it on. Hope this helps.

Felicia: With your housing needs, I'd begin inquiring very soon, whether you want to try the hostel or apartments. There are dozens and dozens of rental options in Prien and nearby towns like Bernau (also on the lake, also has a station) but they tend to be small operations - one or two apartments per. I might wait until April or May to book for the 3 of us, but you need several units under one roof. If a larger place with 4 or 5 units gets booked by even 1, 2 or 3 other parties for even one day during your stay, it's useless for you. Get advice/help from the Prien tourist office: http://tourismus.prien.de/en/main/contact.htm Here are a couple of back-up options I've come across in nearby Bernau (in German - sorry.) Farm stays are common in Bavaria. Not many are near a train station, but this in Bernau one is 800 meters away and 50 meters from the town center; there's an apartment with a double bedroom and a sofa-bed, and 3 doubles - two of which have a "Zustellbett" or portable bed that can be set up for a triple. There's a washer and dryer, and breakfast is served: http://www.bernau-am-chiemsee.de/de/guggemos-urlaub-auf-dem-bauernhof This place has 6 apartments, 1 km from the station; breakfast and washer/dryer are possible at additional cost. http://www.bernau-am-chiemsee.de/de/haus-alpenblick Bernau tourist office: http://www.bernau-am-chiemsee.de/de/tourist-info-bernau-am-chiemsee

You are getting so many responses that I'm losing track of everything everyone else has said. I think the main reason you have inspired so many helpful comments is because you have been so receptive to ideas and thankful for the help. It also doesn't hurt that you have frequently replied to the suggestions. So often people post the question and then never bother to post much after that. Here are a couple of general thoughts; 1) I don't recall if you mentioned whether or not you have found flights, but if not, we're getting ahead of ourselves a bit. You really need to nail down your flights before you go start making concrete plans and making lodging reservations. Since the flight is your single biggest expense, we always make that first and to some extent tailor the itinerary to fit the flight. Doing the reverse could back you into a corner finding flights to fit your itinerary. Sometimes stumbling upon an unconventional flight option can inspire a fresh and improved itinerary. 2) I think fixating on backpacks and money belts may be going a bit overboard for one 11-12 day trip. You start buying stuff like this for every person and things can quickly get a little absurd. I'll bet that everyone knows someone who has a carry-on size bag they can borrow. If it's not ideal, that's not the end of the world. However, I do think that a nice organized lesson (a-la Rick Steves) in packing light would fit right in with the scouting mentality. Since the children will not need massive amounts of money, I don't see a great need for money belts. Just give them a lesson in sensible security including not having more than 20 Euro or so in their pockets when they start the day. 3) I think you are in danger of getting information overload - driven, in part, by your desire to do so much in so many locations in so little time. The value of simplicity works on many levels.

Nigel, I have 5 or 6 girls going and 3 moms. a 4th mom is joining us at some point but is not sure when. I have heard to negotiate the gondola price before we get in the boat???
It seems fun to wander around Venice. I know my daughters will want to search for a fun mask. Glad to hear that getting lost could be fun. Someone suggested sampling pizza and gellato along the way. Sounds like a great idea. We can by 1 slice of pizza and scoop of gelatto to share at each stop. I emailed with the place you recommended to stay. The quad room is not near by the double rooms. Do you think it will be a problem to not have all of us next door to each other?

I am fine for the girls to keep up with their own passports and money. I'm not sure I understand the suggestions on day money verses where to keep your main money. Also, I will have to get an ATM card. I actually have not used one in about 30 years(my childhood). It seems it would be a good idea for all the girls to have a copy of their passport but also for me to have another copy of everyone's passport. The girls are used top carrying purses but not sure that is the best choice.

Kelly and others who have made backpack suggestions,
I am sharing these with my daughter who went on her first real backpacking trip this past summer while at summer camp. She loved it. If she is going to spend her money on a backpack, I want her to evaluate and pick the one that best fits the majority of her needs and use or borrow for this 1 time trip a bag for this trip. While we are on this subject, can the girls get by with 1 pair of chacos for their only shoes on this trip?

Russ, I know you are correct on checking on housing needs. I place I checked can not accommodate us for 1 of the nights we asked about. So, I am working on that.
Also, someone mentioned do we have our plane tickets? no not yet. The cost is currently high. I am continuing to check our options as I am laying out the itinerary. We might get stuck with less than ideal but I hope not. It is a bit of a gamble because the airfare is no bargain right now. One of the moms going with us has worked for american for 30 years and is watching for deals. She is hopeful the airfare will go down in Jan. So, hard to know whether to wait and gamble or book what we know and deal with the $1500 tickets.

Randy, I do appreciate all this help. Truly it feels like I have new friends that want to help me help these girls have a wonderful lifetime experience. Also, it seems it would be very bad manners to waste everyone's time to not consider all this wonderful information everyone has so graciously taken the time to send to me. Not to mention the time it takes to read thru it all my now. I'm going to print it and put it in my Europe notebook(as suggested by someone on here.) I apologize for not always remembering and giving credit by name to everyone who is helping. Speaking of manners, I just saw the other night that there are rules we are suppose to follow when using this sight. I happened on this sight by accident, thru the back door if you will. Just posted a question to see if anyone might have any ideas. So, if I missed some etiquette, I apologize. However, it seems it just says be nice, thoughtful, and respectful. I certainly shouldn't represent Girl Scouts or the Bible belt if I was behaving otherwise. So Thank you for everything. About the info overload, I'm fine with overload. I work greet with getting ideas and opinions and realize the final decisions and responsibilities that come with those decisions belong to me. I'm a pretty big believer in personal responsibility and in seeking wise council.
and as Nigel pointed out, some of you guys are keeping track of how many posts so that can be a fun little game itself. Maybe someone will take all this a publish a manuel for taking kids to europe

speaking of numbers, do you realize that you have now reached 50 of your posts, felicia? There are other gondola experts here who will, hopefully, pipe up with good gondola hints. My wife and I get our gondola kicks by standing up on traghetti which ferry across the Grand Canal at €0.40 a pop. We don't have the €€€ for a gondola for the two of us, and they are more fun for us to observe and photograph than ride in. I think that it might actually be good if the rooms are a little apart. One of the guiding principles of the Don Orione Religious Guest House is quiet. The floors are hard and the walls are wood and the corridors don't have really high ceilings so sound travels. If the girls were not running between nearby rooms it might be a little quieter? They can always meet in the courtyard. You have seen the really neat courtyard? = = =
Important = = = You have me worried, felicia, with the varying numbers of folk on the trip, with one maybe girl and one part of the time but I don't don't know which part mom. With a large - ish group you will need to nail down hotels (and hotel equivalents) but if you can't say for sure how many at place that will be murder. If you have reservations for people who aren't there you are paying too much. If people arrive without reservations or you try to add people later you may have people in the group without a bed.... and here I thought we were on the downhill slope... I really think of the regular posters as part of my extended family and the same with posters like you, felicia, with really neat questions. You do realize that you have a job when you return, to tell us what happened and provide your now expert advice to others?

Felicia, I think you said some of the persons in your travel group said they wish to bring a small bag : carry-on size. That is what I do, but I did not do that in my first trip to Europe, or in my second trip to Europe. I learned, by trial and error, how to put my essential items in a small bag (carry-on size). Rick Steves' system of putting things in a carry-on size bag, as seen in his video of travel skills, would not be satisfactory for most people. (Rick Steves said : put three sets of underwear in the bag). For a person's first trip to Europe, for most people, I recommend using a bag that is larger than carry-on size. It would be a check-in bag at the airports. After the first trip to Europe, if a person decides to bring a smaller bag in the next trip, the person could confront the challenge of putting things in a smaller bag, in the next trip. If some of the persons in your travel group know how to put their items in a small bag (carry-on size), that is great.

Answering a few questions: Can the girls get by with just one pair of Chacos? I would say no, especially if you mean Chaco sandals. They will need something suitable fir hiking in Switzerland. Running shoes would be ideal is they have those. Wear the shoes on the plane and pack the Chacos or other sandals in the luggage. I never would try to get by with just one pair of shoes or sandals on a trip, especially in summer. All that walking in the heat puts stress on even well broken in shoes. Straps start to rub, and the next thing is blisters or sore feet. I take the same very comfortable sandals each trip, ones I wear all the time at home, but I still need to change to a different pair after several hours of walking in sandals. ( that doesn't happen with shoes worn with socks.) Hotel Danieli is a beautiful and luxurious hotel, but I would think even dessert there would be very expensive. I see their brunch costs 75 euros. And the desserts are very fussy---you can see the menu online. For a nice waterfront lunch or snack experience, you might consider the floating terrace at La Calcina, on the Giudecca canal. It is close to the place Nigel recommended if you en up staying there. Gondola ride could be a fun experience if the girls are interested. We have never done it, but I seem to recall the cost is around 80 euros for 45 minutes or so, in the daytime. It is more at night. Split among six people that is not too bad.

Regarding your question about a guide in Venice. I was on a RS Tour recently and would highly recommend one of the guides listed in Italy 2011. Her name is Elizabetti Morelli. The guidebook says she charges $65 an hour with a 2 hour minimum. Her e-mail is www.bettamorelli@inwind.it. Another choice would be to have the girls research and map their own walking tour. Have them write or type a handout for each participant. The RS Guide gives what he considers the most important sights in each city and he describes most important things to see within each venue so this should be fairly easy and would save you some money. I think it is important that you give the girls some responsibility in researching their tour as well as practical matters of traveling. It will be a valuable
lesson for them and something they will remember.

Lola,
Thanks for the ideas for Venice. And thank you very much for the backpack. I have emailed with the place Nigel recommended and should be confirming reservations there soon. The secret itineraries of Doges palace looks very fascinating. I'm sure all the girls have running shoes so I will recommend they bring those for walking.

Paula,
You are almost my neighbor. Thanks for the info on a guide for Venice. I will try to look her up. yes, I agree with you about having the girls help with planning. The will also appreciate it more and be more agreeable if it is their idea. They actually picked the original countries, cities and major attractions they want to see. I have recommended they all read the "thru the back door" book. I am passing on some of the suggestions from these posts on to the girls. They are going to do some research over their Thanksgiving break and then we have a couple meetings planned over Christmas break to make some decisions. It is hard for them to imagine any of the hurdles that need to be considered, time of travel, value of money and costs of things, danger and safety issues, etc. So, I'm trying to narrow some things down to reasonable choices. They would pick things like snow skiing, ski diving, parasailing and trying to get from one place to the next without realizing how long it takes. I do plan to sit down with them and a map and yarn and train schedule as was suggested by someone earlier. Also, when we have an idea about how much things cost, I'll have them look at how much money they have and what will be their priorities. It was also a good suggestion to have the girls take turns being the leader of the day and navigating, picking the lunch spot, etc for that day. All the ideas and advice I have received have helped alot puttting things together and thinking of ways to involve the girls and having a great trip for them.

The La Cacina on the terrace for dessert looks beautiful and ambiance and all the things these romantic teen girls will love. thanks. I'll show it to them. How exciting. It truly is so wonderful to have all these wonderful tips from people who have been there.

Happy Thanksgiving week to everyone. I have booked 2 nights in Venice at the place recommended by Nigel. Thank you. It looks unique and fun for the girls(and moms). I am still reading "the book". Unless I learn new information, here is the general trip itinerary. Girl scout chalet first 3 nights Florence 2 nights Venice 2 nights Salzburg 3 nights Munich 3 nights friday June 22nd fly home. I strongly considered russ's suggestion to stay in between munich and salzburg in a small quiet town. I think if I was traveling with only my family, that would be my choice. It sounds lovely and I know the energy/travel habits of my own family. But, since this is a group and we may have some group members (1 mom likely) with less energy who may want to take a rest break back at the hotel and join up with us again later, it seems best to stay closer to what we will be doing. Also, it seems we would be best to move locations again anyway the last night to be closer to the munich airport, again, needing to consider a group may have more hiccups and move slower. However, the advice to change locations less often and stay at least 2 nights in one spot is great advice and I was headed for a stressful trip error without the wisdom of you experienced travelers. We have left out Rome and the overnight in Fussen from our original plans. As many of you have mentioned, it is still possible to add in a day trip to Fussen from Munich is the girls decide that is a priority for them but also leaves the choice of Munich and surrounding area otherwise. I will mostly be taking a planning break this week but would welcome feedback on this latest schedule.
thank you

Felicia, That looks so much better than your early plans. Congratulations. You deserve a break in planning. Still need those plane tickets though, right?

I do still need plane tickets. Should I wait and see if prices go down in Jan or just pay the $1500 round trip from tulsa to zurich and home from munich to tulsa?
One of my new travel friends on here, Paula, offered to try and help us find a good flight? I mom and daughter are flying non rev and meeting us, so I will have 4-5 girls (one girl still on the fence but knows if she doesn't commit, it will have to be a no) and 2 leaders flying with me.

I really think you are getting there, felecia, and it is so cool to see somebody who really gets it. Well done, girl!!

Felicia: I think your group would have enjoyed the scenery and outdoor options in Prien, but you'll no doubt enjoy yourselves in Munich and in Salzburg too. For June flights, I've found the best deals in March, typically. Best wishes for a pleasant holiday.

For buying airline tickets, I would wait until January or February or March. Buy the airline tickets when you think the price is reasonable.

In Venice, I do not recommend paying $ 130. (U.S. Dollars) for walking with a guide on streets in Venice.
One of the things in Venice that I recommend seeing is the basilica (church) of Santa Maria della Salute at Dorsoduro, built in the 1630s - 1650s. It was designed by the great baroque architect Longhena. I suggest seeing a close-up view of that church's exterior.

Felicia, I know you are taking a break but my comments will not require any work on your part just yet. Just some thoughts. Since your dates are firm, driven by the time at the Girl Scout chalet and other reservations, I do not think you should wait as long as March to book. Start looking at fares twice a week beginning in late December. Lots of people say that fares often go down on Tuesdays, so make that a time to look. And be ready to jump on a good fare. Do not limit yourself to American Airlines. Almost all of theirs require two stops to get you to Zurich. I saw one itinerary on Kayak.com with only one stop, going Tulsa to Chicago on American and then from there to Zurich on Swiss. Will you be booking the flights for most of the group? Be very careful to get a firm commitment, like a non-refundable deposit, before you pay for tickets for other people. And make sure you have the exact names, as they appear on each passport, as you will need those. They might need birthrates too. Each participant should be advised about travel insurance for unforeseen events. They should buy fairly soon after you book flights to ensure full coverage. You might want to consult a travel agent as they are very knowledgeable about the pitfalls of group travel. They may be able to book a block of tickets and put names to them later. Some apparently want to book their own flights and that is good in a way, less risk for you, but it means they could decide they can't find a good price and decide not to go.

Sasha,
I don't mind the advice. My taking a break just means not as attentive to trip plans as usual and will be away from the computer some over the Holiday which is also my youngest daughter's birthday. Anyway, I will continue to check flights and probably need to check more frequently. I should check on trip insurance and also get the exact names as it appears on their passport/ID for booking flights. If I find under $800, I'm prepared to book immediately. The people going have been making nonrefundable payments to the troop also with the understanding that I will be needing to make reservations that are potentially non refundable. I am not familiar with kayak.com but the chicago to zurich flight on swiss air sounds like a good flight for us. I'll check on it. There are a few people flying on their own but it is because they can fly for free on american. They will probably leave tulsa the day before us. I'm sure they are committed to go unless some unforeseen emergency would arise. Thanks for your help.

For those of you familiar with Munich, do you have suggestions on what part of town is best to stay in? The airport looks to be kind of far out and we will be flying home from there. Also, now don't think I've lost it, but what do you think about staying in a marriott while in Munich and do you know about any of them? I'd love to hear your arguments for and against this idea. I'm thinking some of our group may be a bit homesick and needy of some familiar comforts AND I can stay in marriotts for free, well, I have to use points but my husband is platinum and we get some perks. Not planning on staying in marriott anywhere else, but what do you think?

You don't need to have guilt about staying at a Marriott. Not looking it up, I remember (I think) a Marriott just north of the centre, towards the Englischer Garden. I had a pretty decent breakfast there - expensive - and a good stay. It was right on the U-Bahn so very convenient. Use up those points...

I will be trying to watch for good flight choices over the next month. I can see it is not a great idea to get locked in to too many locations before we have firm flights because our plans could change. However, I also don't know how long to wait to book accommodations or maybe there are many choices of places to stay and it is no worry??? I have the chalet in Switzerland booked and the place in Venice, can't remember the name, Nigel recommended it.
My choices are a bit limited flying home from Munich but if possible, I think that works best to cover the majority of the trip the girls originally wanted to cover.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Just to everyone on our girl scout trip plans: I have met twice with the girls on their Christmas break. Short summary. The girls have agreed that the info below is the general plan they want me to try and plan for them. 3 days at the GS swiss chaletoutdoor hiking, etc 1 day/2 nights in florence art museum, churches, david, maybe guided city tour, eat pasta 2 nights in Venicewonder, shop for masks, gelato. also, the 4 highlights I believe lola mentioned are all on the list to try and plan for 3 nights salzburg, sound of music tour, biking, shopping 3 nights in munich-day trip to castles, still maybe dachau, glokenspiel. I have been watching for airfare but not seen any great bargins yet. It looks like it is possible to take a tour bus from munich to neuwashtein and other castles. does anyone have a particuler tour group they recommend. I saw one called mike's bike and castle tour??
I know I need to get airfare settled before I book much else so hopefully will find something soon.

As it is getting close to travel time, I am rereading all the advice. So much of it makes more sense to me now that I have learned so much. I even purchased some packing cubes. I took the troop to a local travel store for a packing class and everyone was impressed with the envelope that held so many shirts so compactly. The schedule mentioned in this thread is close to our final itinerary. We added a 5 hour lay over in verona between Venice and Salzburg. going to check the luggage and hop on a bus to see Juliette's balcony. We added 4 nites in salzburg, although we don't arrive until very late the first nite because of the layover in Verona. And, we needed the last nite so we can go to the marionette theater to see the puppet's production of the sound of Music. We have tickets to the secret passages tour of Doge's Palace in Venice. We are taking a pasta making class in Florence. We are going on bob's sound of music tour and a bicycle tour in salzburg. We are likely to day trip from munich to neuschwanstein castle. We have tried very hard but are not going to be able to travel carry on only. We were on track for carry on only until we realized our swiss air flight only allows 1 item and under 17 lbs. My 10lb camera and back pack and toothbrush and change of underwear would be about all I'd get. Maybe next time but I will have to downsize my camera. I didn't have the time or money to learn a new camera. thanks everyone for all the help. We are excited.

felicia, It sounds like all the arrangements are coming together nicely. You must all be getting very excited for departure day! Be sure to post a "Trip Report" to let everyone here know how the trip went. Happy travels!

Just putting in my two cents on Monselice. It's quite small, so I don't know that I would stay there, but it's definitely worth a stop. I saw the castle on the hill through the train window on the way to a different city and was intrigued, so I made a point to go back later. Unfortunately the castle was closed, but I was able to take a tour of the Castello museum, which was really impressive.

Wow, Felicia - I thought you were planning another trip ;-)

Eileen,
No trips currently in the works for me but thanks for checking. I think that last post was someone new that must have just happened on my old thread. I'm glad it is still around. Several girl scouts leaders have happened on it and contacted me for help and probably mostly encouragement. I couldn't have done it without all you guys.