help with europe travel plans

Also, I hope for the girls to have a variety of experiences. See a castle, some impressive cathedrals, a good art museum, some outdoor activities, some history, some authentic foods, etc. What to skip? what not to miss?
thanks for the help.

If Frutigen is a must, OK, then I'd suggest you save yourselves the arduous land trip to Munich head from there on the 12th south to Rome - it's 6.5 hours. Spend the 12-14th there. You will not have time to see a lot, but that's a bare minimum. Then on the 15th go to Florence - 1.5 hrs. - in the morning. Spend the 15th and 16th sightseeing. Then on the night of the 16th at 21:37, catch the City Night Line train (direct, overnight) to Munich. That gives you 4 days of sightseeing in Munich, Salzburg, Füssen and Dachau. I'd stay only in Munich and Salzburg - do daytrips to Füssen and Dachau from Munich. Fly home out of MUC - and maybe spend the final night near the airport to minimize problems.

Russ, just saw your post. It sounds like a good possibility. I'll have to take some time to look at it. it is very helpful to hear all these ideas from everyone. I've even called several travel agents and have not been able to get this much help in the last month.

felicia, After reading your proposed travel plans, my first comment is that this is FAR too ambitious for what appears to be 12-days of touring! You're covering a fair amount of territory in a relatively short time frame. It's important to remember that each time you change locations, it will take at least half a day and in some cases the better part of a day. Especially when travelling with a group, I really believe it will be necessary to reduce the number of places you'll be visiting. Changing locations frequently also increases your transportation costs. I would also suggest that everyone that will be taking this trip read Europe Through The Back Door prior to departure, as it provides a lot of great information on "how" to travel in Europe. Is there any possibility you could add some time to this trip? If you can provide a slightly reduced list of destinations, I'm sure the group here will be able to help with the details. Good Luck with your planning!

Russ, your thoughts do leave out Venice. It is so hard to know what to leave out or to make the trip longer.

You might want to give us a little bit more information about your group. How many girls, how many chaperones? High School age can be anything from 9th grade to 12th grade, and traveling with 20 girls age 14 is going to be way different than 10 girls age 17. What is the purpose of the trip? Is there a main goal? What kind of budget? Will you be in hostels or hotels? What about food? Have any of the girls traveled to Europe before this? Do they know how to pack and not to bring 25 kg. of luggage with them? Have you gotten out a map and planned the trip so that you aren't backtracking? Moving forward in one direction makes more sense. I would go ahead and stay in Munich, rather than see Salzburg one day, go to Munich and Dachau and then sightsee in Salzburg again. The girls are young, knock a day or 2 off of the chalet and use them staying longer in some of your other towns. For train schedules, use dates a month or so in the future, as you can't get information that far ahead. The trains may make some minor changes, but not usually.

Hi, Felicia. Your trip needs revision. Zurich airport to Frutigen will take you 4.5 hours. Frutigen to Füssen is a trip of over TEN HOURS. Frutigen represents a gigantic, expensive, and fairly fruitless detour from your destinations in Germany, even if there is a GS chalet there. I would suggest that you head north from Zurich airport by train 45 minutes to Schaffhausen to relax for a day or two. Full price from the airport to S'hausen is 18 CHF. There's an official Swiss youth hostel there housed in a fancy old villa with small and large rooms: www.youthhostel.ch/en/hostels/schaffhausen Schaffhausen is home to Europe's largest waterfall, Rheinfall, and a very nice place: www.schaffhauserland.ch/en/land/places/schaffhausen And from there, Germany is at your feet. Füssen is about 5 hours away, Munich about 4. Lake Constance is only 30 minutes away.

Also: you will find cheap group daypasses for regional travel in Germany; 5 can travel on Sat or Sun from Schaffhausen, for example, to anywhere in Germany for 39 Euros on Sat or Sun with the "Happy Weekend" Ticket using regional trains. Once you are in Bavaria (from Lindau east) you can use a 5-person "Bavaria Ticket" daypass to travel between, say, Munich and Füssen, or Munich and Salzburg, again on the regional trains. To find itineraries on the regional trains, click on "only local transport" at this page: http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en Bavaria Ticket: http://www.munich-touristinfo.de/Bavaria-Ticket.htm Happy Weekend ticket: http://www.bahn.com/i/view/USA/en/prices/germany/happy_weekend_ticket.shtml

I appreciate the ideas so far. We are committed to the girl scout chalet. It is our original travel destination. Frutigen is the nearest train stop. We are taking day trips each day from the chalet. It does seem that Fruitgen is out of the way for getting on with the rest of the trip ideas we are working towards. I would consider leaving out the castle in Fussen but some girls really want to see it. I did not realize it was 10 hours by train from frutigen. Can you tell me what train to take and what route it takes. We do have some flexibility on our return date. I am trying to plan the trip in logical geographical order of destinations. It may make more sense to go from fussen to Munich for 1 night (see Dachau and Munich) and go on to salzburg the next night. Is there a different castle in a more convenient location that would be just as good to see? What is the opinion of seeing Dachau? The girls all have studied this grievous part of history and desire to go see it. Also, is Florence and the statue of David very far out of the way from Venice?
thank you.

I am taking 5 or 6 girls mostly age 17. 3 moms are going. Most girls have traveled some but we have not investigate packing, etc yet.

felicia, While I agree with prior sentiment - all well thought out - I do understand the special place the Chalet plays in the life of Girl Scouts. My wife brought me up to date on it some months ago, and we even worked on the song. And when at the Chalet the Alps are at your feet, miles and miles of hiking choices very close, and the steam ship rides on Lakes Thun and Brienz are right there. Do think out the travel required between the points. I understand your and your girls' want to see it all - Switzerland, Germany, Austria, the Holocaust and all the highlights of Italy. You don't want to leave any of it out, and you don't want any of the girls to feel that their special need has been overlooked. But, if it were me, I would want the girls to remember what they did, not how tired they were or how they were force marched to breakfast and then the next thing. Can I just mention one specific, why overshoot Munich, just to return and add more travel returning to Salzburg again on such a tight trip. One fleeting portion of a day in Venice and the same in Florence will just appear as so much dust - such a shame. Can you have a meeting with the girls and consult on this and whittle a little? Otherwise "fun" and "budget conscious" will be difficult to achieve.

The purpose of the trip is to celebrate the girls accomplishments and staying in girl scouting thru high school, and get a sampling of parts of europe. The budget is loose but not unlimited and we need to get as much as possible for our money. We are open as far as what types of places to stay. Clean, safe and affordable are the priorities. We will be on our own for figuring out food and everything else. I have traveled with these girls several places for the last 10 years. They have taken trains and stayed in hostels in the US, been on 16 hour car rides, camped in tents in 100 degrees and 36 degrees F. They want to eat pasta and garlic bread.

felicia Our posts crossed as we posted at the same time. Use the first link in Russ's second post for all train times in Europe. By doing that, and getting the girls up early, I can get you to Fuessen in just under 7 hours, if you make all the connections. Have a look at the results in the next post:

con't: Frutigen Th, 17.11.11 dep 07:03 6:56 3 R, IC, EC, RB Unknown tariff abroad Purchase Choose return trip Füssen Th, 17.11.11 arr 13:59 Station/Stop Date Time Platform Products Frutigen Th, 17.11.11 dep 07:03 1 R 6160 Regionalzug Number of bicycles conveyed limited Reichenbach im Kandertal dep 07:06 2 Mülenen dep 07:08 2 Spiez Th, 17.11.11 arr 07:16 5C Transfer time 9 min. Adjust the transfer time Spiez Th, 17.11.11 dep 07:25 4 IC 815 Intercity Number of bicycles conveyed limited, Please reserve, business-compartment, Bordrestaurant, Snacks and beverages available, handy/quiet zones, parent-and-children compartment Thun dep 07:36 2 Bern dep 08:02 Zürich HB Th, 17.11.11 arr 08:58 10 Transfer time 18 min. Adjust the transfer time Zürich HB Th, 17.11.11 dep 09:16 13 EC 193 Eurocity Bicycles conveyed - subject to reservation, Number of bicycles conveyed limited, business-compartment, Bordrestaurant Zürich Flughafen dep 09:28 1 Winterthur dep 09:42 4 St. Gallen(CH) dep 10:19 1 St. Margrethen dep 10:42 3 Bregenz dep 10:55 3 Lindau Hbf dep 11:12 3 Memmingen dep 12:14 3 Buchloe Th, 17.11.11 arr 12:41 3
To be con't again

con't again Transfer time 3 min. Adjust the transfer time Buchloe Th, 17.11.11 dep 12:44 4 RB 57348 Regionalbahn Number of bicycles conveyed limited Kaufbeuren dep 12:58 1 Biessenhofen dep 13:04 2 Ebenhofen dep 13:07 Marktoberdorf dep 13:17 2 Marktoberdorf Schule dep 13:19 Leuterschach dep 13:24 Lengenwang dep 13:35 2 Seeg dep 13:42 Weizern-Hopferau dep 13:50 2
Füssen Th, 17.11.11 arr 13:59 3 9 minutes for the connection at Spiez should be easy for your group, and you will have been there before. 18 minutes at Zurich, also should be no problem to just go 3 platforms. The one at Buchloe may be a bit worrying at just 3 minutes but it looks like just across the platform from number 3 to number 4. I'd probably risk it. The worst that would happen is an hour there waiting for the next train, and its Regional so harm.

Nigel, thanks for your time to help me with this trip. I hate to sound ignorant but I need a little help in understanding the train schedules. It seems you are telling me to go back to zurich from the chalet on the way to fussen and hope we make a few tight connections??

if we can afford the time and money, I'd like to see all the places we have mentioned. If it is going to make the trip overly burdensome, I'd like help in evaulating the pros and cons of what to leave off. It does seem best to go from fussen to munich and add a night in munich especially if we are going to keep Dachau in the trip plans. Also, what are your opinions of Florence and the museum that houses the statue of David? The girls originally wanted to include Spain and Paris so they do understand that we cannot do it all. How much time and what should we do in Rome?

A useful exercise might be for the girls (and mums) to get out a map of western Europe (the RS one for rail planning is pretty good but any single sheet map would do), and join the points and via points with push pins and coloured yarn. It will give a really good idea of how things tie together (literally). The most direct route from southern Bern Canton in Switzerland to southwestern Bavaria for Fuessen is indeed via Zurich, as suggested by Russ in his first post. I, and others, will be happy to help - I need to take a break at the moment, its dinner time in the UK.

Felicia, Nigel didn't do you any favor by just screen dumping the Bahn schedule (you don't really care if the number of bicycles conveyed is limited). You probably also don't care about intermediate stations where the train stops but you don't transfer. This information just clutters the schedule. For a more readable schedule, go to the German Rail website, put in from Frutigen to Fuessen. The bahn is showing schedules through June 2012, so put in your date (dd/mm/2012). For time, put in 7:00. Click Search (or Refresh). Assuming this is a weekday, you'll see the first train at 7:03. Click the ">" symbol to the left of the connection to expand it, showing all changes, in a more understandable format. BTW, Nigel schedule shows a change of trains at Buchloe, track 3 to track 4. The station layout for Buchloe (www.stationsdatenbank.bayern-takt.de/StationsdatenbankBEG/Steckbrief.html?lang=de&efz=8000057) shows that tracks 3 and 4 are not cross platform. However, the detailed schedule for June 2012 shows the connection to be in Kaufbeuren, but also 3 min. The track numbers for that schedule have yet to be posted, so we can't tell if that is cross platform, or not. But, not to worry. Just make sure you are at the end of the coach when the train stops in Kaufbeuren. Get off immediately and locate the stairs to the tunnel. Go down into the tunnel and find the number for you new platform. You probably won't be the only people making the connection. Stay with the herd. The conductor will not release the train if people are still boarding.

I appreciate that, Lee, and, as you know, I always bow to your superior knowledge and vast experience regarding German trains. Nevertheless I was surprised that DB would give a connection that difficult not on adjacent platforms, so I had a look what the Destination Expert for train travel on TripAdvisor (yeah, I know you don't like TA) had to say about the issue. He only has 20,000 posts, but what he said (last year) about Memmingen to Füssen was: "Just follow the crowds. There are hourly connections from Memmingen to Munich. And hourly connections from Füssen to Munich. One hour the train from Memmingen is direct and the ones coming from Füssen have to change in Buchloe. The other hour the train from Füssen is direct and the ones coming from Memmingen have to change in Buchloe. This change of trains takes place on the same platform. The 3 minutes are by purpose that short and won't be a problem." If they are not cross platform, Lee, how does the map show they are related?

It doesn't take as long as previously stated to go by rail from the airport in Zurich to Frutigen. 2:44 from the airport station to Frutigen at xx:44 after every hour with one change in Spiez. 2:11 same journey with 2 changes - Bern and Spiez at xx:13 after every hour. The reason I put in the intermediate stops is to get a feeling for the route and feeling of each train.

Look at the map. Unfortunately you have to cut 'n paste since BBC can't handle a link with a '?' in the URL. The horizontal orange bars are platforms. Gleis 3 and Gleis 4 are next to each other in the "ditch" between platforms. Look at the lower picture. The sign for Gleis 1 is next to the station. Gleis 2 is next to it in the ditch. Gleis 2 shares the next platform with Gleis 3. Gleis 4 is in the same ditch with 3 and shares the next platform. This is typical of most through German stations. 1 uses the platform next to the station; 2 and 3 share the next platform, 4 and 5, etc. The exception I know of is Offenburg, where Gleis 1 is in it's own ditch with platforms on both sides. Access from the station platform fenced off. Access is via the platform it shares with Gleis 2, which is in a ditch with Gleis 3. Every Bahn station in Bavaria is shown on the Stationsdatenbank on the website, www.bayern-takt.de (in German). BTW, I've seen connections between Munich and Fuessen that go straight through and others that change in Buchloe, Kaufbeuren, or Biessenhofen, depending on the time of day and the schedule that year. Today, Memmingen is rarely, if ever, a change of trains (even a stop) on the way from Munich to Fuessen, but it might be used going north from Lindau..

I think you'll have to leave out something. I picked Venice arbitrarily. But I personally find Venice far more worthwhile than Neuschwanstein "Castle" in Füssen, which really isn't a castle at all but a 19th-century mock-up that was never used for anything but tourism, that takes most of the day to visit from Munich, and that offers a very weak 45-min. tour in marginally intelligible English. If you cut Füssen, you could head straight to Venice on the night of the 16th - a 2-hr. trip if you catch the 19:25 train - and spend one night there; then on the 17th, sightsee in Venice all day, then catch the 21:05 City Night Line train to Munich, arriving there at 6:15 am on the 18th. That leaves you 3 days - the 18th-20th - for Munich, Salzburg, and Dachau, and to make a final trek to a hotel near MUC airport. Still pretty rushed everywhere, but maybe doable.

is there a castle worth seeing in munich or salzburg? Fussen was my least favorite stop. I have a few girls in the troop that want to see a castle. However, I agree that might be the easiest thing to drop from our schedule to lighten the load. I also don't want to overload the girls so much they don't enjoy what we will be doing.

Salzburg? Yaaah. Festung Hohensalzburg is the city's icon! Here: http://www.salzburg-burgen.at/en I've also been to this one in Burghausen - great - but it's also 2 hours from either Munich or Salzburg by train: http://www.roadstoruins.com/burghausen.html Hohenwerfen (see first link above) is south of Salzburg by train - I've never been, perhaps others can comment, but it has falconry exhibitions, which in my experience at other castles have been fascinating, especially for kids, (and perhaps a more authentic experience than the kitschy "Sound of Music" tour, where you'll be packed into a bus with lots of other English-speaking tourists.)

The Tripadvisor comments on Hohenwerfen Castle are very favorable: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g1165061-d195746-Reviews-Fortezza_Hohenwerfen_e_Falconeria-Werfen_Austrian_Alps.html

Felicia You have truly assumed a herculean task in planning this awesome trip for your deserving scout troop! PP mentioned pulling out a map of Western Europe to help you and the girls visualize the distances you will be traveling. Great idea! In addition, the steps below will help your group see the amount of travel time for your proposed itinerary. * get a paper or online calendar (wincalendar.com to make it easy to change & send to the group) * put in proposed international flights. Count the 1st day as a recovery day & the last day as a flight day (pack, check out, time to airport, 2 + hrs. waiting). Note: Do not make the return flight before mid day or you will be up before dawn! * with the suggestions you have received, plot the best route with your destinations. Add to calendar. * now figure out the travel times. Add to the calendar. For the train, go to http://www.bahn.com, English version. This will give you the actual time on the train. Read RS for purchase ideas. * below are factors most people leave out when figuring out their actual travel times. ** pack, check out of the hotel ** hotel to train station time ** wait at the station time (buy your tickets from US or purchase at least the day before) ** train time ** train station to hotel ** check in, unpack ** get oriented, get lost ** Add all to the calendar.
Now, how much time do you have in each destination? Is this what you expected? Is there enough time to do & see what you wanted? Many RS posters will suggest you not have any 1 night stays and to do day trips from a central city. If you work these ideas into your itinerary, it will keep your trip much more sane! Keep us posted on what you decide as you struggle with your itinerary. Good luck, Bobbie

felicia, You've received some great suggestions so far. I have a few questions..... > Is there any possibility of making the trip longer than two weeks? > Were you planning to use open-jaw flights (ie: into one city and return home from another)? > What amount are you budgeting for daily expenses for each person in the group? > Would it be a problem for the adult members in the group to stay in Hostels? As the others have suggested, I would strongly suggest that you eliminate one-night stops from your plans. Make each stop at least two nights (longer in some locations). Could you provide a list of the cities you want to visit, along with the principal sights in each one, listed in the order of importance. With some additional information, I'm sure a solution can be found. Cheers!

Thanks, everyone. This site has been way more helpful than I expected. Ken, to answer some questions so you guys can continue to help me: I could add a day or 2 to the trip but I think the girls will be tired and ready for personal space. We all live with alot of personal space and are gearing up to be "considerate and caring" ( part of the girl scout law). I have not heard the term open jaw flight but we were hoping it was not too much more expensive to fly in one place and home from another. We have a rough budget that is a guess on my part, of $200/day for everything except airfare and souvenirs. All adult members are willing to stay whatever I decide is best. We have traveled quite a bit together and they trust my judgment. However, with the information I have gathered so far, it seems the hostel is not really any less expensive since we can put several people ini a room to get costs down/room. It seems unanimous that I eliminate all 1 night stays.So, it seems wisest to eliminate the stop in Fussen and see a castle elsewhere, maybe salzburg.

felicia, Actually, visiting Neuschwanstein may still be possible, as it's an easy day trip from Munich. Are you firmly committed to three days at the Girl Scout Chalet in Switzerland or would two days suffice? Was the $200 per day an amount allocated for each person? Keep in mind that's only about €145. While open-jaw flights often do cost a bit more than return flights, that has to be balanced against the cost and time of returning to the starting point. Especially with such a short time frame, I really believe open-jaw would be the best method for your trip. Adding a few days would certainly help, but adding a week would be better. I'll have a closer look at this and try to provide a few ideas.

the $200/day is for each person. What is a reasonable estimate to plan/day for cost?

I also think I need to check into our room before we site see or we are hauling our luggage around town unless anyone has any ideas about luggage storage. I heard there may be some luggage storage at train stations but not sure of the size, expense and also heard during travel alerts they may not be allowed. The girl scout chalet in adleboden switzerland is the first 3 nights. That includes arriving zurich on sat, finding our way to the chalet, and dinner somewhere with no other plans.
Sunday June 10 Church in near by town, can't remember the name and hiking in the afternoon. The girls are thinking about a day trip somewhere for monday, maybe lucern or similar. They want outdoors, alps, experience. Munichdon't really have many ideas. the glockenspiel in the marianplatz seems good. open to ideas. one reason for munich is to go to a german town and it is between salzburg and Dachau. I personally do not like to see or think about sad things but am putting on my big girl clothes because the girls have studied about it and want to go there. Any opinions about Dachau? Salzburg. we all are looking forward to salzburg, the town, the sound of music tour, the castle, maybe see a show at the marionette theater, sing cheesy songs from the musical, whistle for each other, the cathedral in mondsee that is in the movie. Venice. experience the romance as it looks in the movies(I know it may not really by like that but we're hoping for it the whole trip). Not sure what to see, ride the gondola if we can afford it. Eat dessert at the hotel Denali (in the movie, the tourist). Open for suggestions. Eat yummy food. Floerence. See the statue of David and the rest of the art museum. Heard to shop there for leather. Any other suggestions?

Rome. I understand there is so much to see. The girls would love to see some sites related to Christian history. Eat pasta and garlic bread. We will not have much time. What are the must not miss things

I think I would rather stay in salzburg than munich but it also depends on where we can find to stay, etc. It just seems there may be more things of interest for us in salzburg than munich but munich seems a better location for day trips.

we definitely can not add a week. We could cut a day at the chalet but also so much to see in switzerland and I was trying to have the beginning of the trip a little slower pace expecting jet lag and awe of the country, experience, etc.

I wish I could plan trips like this for a living. Because this is exactly the kind of situation I love; good kids + modest budgets. The only problem is, to make it work I would have to be able to have veto power over any trip wish I deem to be crazy unrealistic :-) First off, $200/day/person for general expenses is plenty if you don't spend too large a portion of that just getting from one place to another. Our family of 5 generally gets by on $300/day for all of us put together. Open jaw flights are not only no more expensive than round trip (if you are flexible) but can actually be cheaper. This year we will save over $200/ea in airfare by ending our trip to Italy in Paris. I never would of thought that was possible until I actually looked into it. You will not find hotels filled with rooms for 4. Those are the exception, not the rule. You will need several rooms together, which limits your options to larger hotels. Or, you could do the obvious and stay in hostels. At 25E/bed, you may only save a modest amount of money, but the kids will enjoy the atmosphere more and you will have no trouble finding enough rooms. They are more "family" friendly than you imagine. The single biggest expense you have direct control over is ground transport costs. The less ground you try to cover, the less you spend. There was a time when getting a good photo of a famous place was an accomplishment in itself. No more. You can get 100 great photos of anywhere in the world just by using Google. With that out of the equation, the only reason to visit a place is to create a meaningful memory. That takes time. Some of that time needs to be spent just observing the little things there are to notice - things too small to merit a mention in a guide book, but will be the thing that gets talked about years later.

May I suggest that you do a little more research on the towns and cities you are visiting, either with the RS books, Trip Advisor or just use Google. There are so many more things to see and do than what you are describing. How much are the girls helping with this? They should be doing some research too, finding interesting things to see and do, whether it is food, markets, historic sites, churches, etc. The girls might really enjoy either a bike tour or a walking tour in some of these cities, especially Munich. Check out the various companies and what they offer, as well as their prices and up-to-date reviews on Trip Advisor. Prices are cheap and they will come home with a far better sense of the history of the city as well as fun memories. Going to Dachau is very important and it is wonderful that the girls want to go here. Hopefully, they will read a bit more about the Holocaust and WWII before their visit.

(more thoughts...) I suggest you sit down with the girls and a basic train map of Europe and a laptop with wifi and the Bahn train web site bookmarked. Here are the rules; 1) No train trips of more than 3 hours (it's not only about time, but since cost is a function of distance, it's about money, too) 2) 1-night stay only possible in towns of 10,000 people or less and even then, only if the in&out times allow you a reasonable chance to get the feel for a place. A big city needs three nights minimum 'cuz that's just two days. Less than two days is pretty much meaningless. This means you are limited to 5-7 dots on the map - preferably no more than 4-5. 3) Youth hostels or other unconventional lodgings conducive to low costs and keeping you all close together and CLOSE TO THE SIGHTS YOU WISH TO SEE 4) No backtracking! You travel in a strait line or arc or circle or whatever, but no senseless zigzagging. You don't have time. If it's not on the way, you don't see it. 5) The trip should be meaningful and educational and not just a means to collect pretty photos and be able to say "I was there". The point of the rules is not that they are perfect. Anyone can (and probably will) quibble with any of them. But there are infinite ways to combine the travel fantasies of several people into one trip, but only limited few ways to make the result sane. Having said all that, I am in awe of your willingness to take all of this on and helping the girls have a (potentially) amazing experience. Good for you. And (I assume) good for all those hundreds of people who bought crates of cookies over the years... PS; if in Salzburg, take "Maria's Sound Of Music Bicycle Tour". It's half the cost and twice the fun of the busses. The girls will love it.

felicia, Here's a suggested Itinerary to consider..... > Day 1 - Depart U.S. > Day 2 - Arrive Zurich (try to book flight that arrives in the morning) - Buy tickets for trip to Adelboden and also for trip from Adelboden to Munich. - Travel to Adelboden - Airport / ZRH > Bern > Spiez > Fruitgen > Post Bus to Adelboden (time 2H:50M) > Day 3 - Adelboden, touring > Day 4 - Adelboden, touring > Day 5 - Post Bus to Frutigen - Train to Munich (Dep. 07:03, Arv. 13:28, Time 6H:25M, 2 changes, Reservations compulsory) - Familiarization > Day 6 - Munich, day trip to Dachau > Day 7 - Munich, day trip to Füssen & Neuschwanstein Castle; Buy rail tickets for Salzburg and Venice at EurAide office in station NOTE: You an either do trips to Dachau and Neuschwanstein on your own, or with a tour company. Check www.radiusmunich.com for costs and other details. Note that for tours of the Castles, reservations are mandatory and visitors must take the Castle tour at the time they book. > Day 8 - Train to Salzburg (Dep. 08:27, Arv. 10:09, Time 1H:42M, Reservations compulsory) > Day 9 - Salzburg, touring (Sound of Music, Mozart?) > Day 10 - Train to Venice (Travel from Salzburg to Venice is a bit more complicated and often involves a Bus and some walking. Another method would be to travel back to Munich and then travel only by train, as there's only one change in Verona. That's probably the method I'd use, for "simplicity". continued.....

felicia, Part 2.... If you want to travel via Munich, here's one suggestion: - Train from Salzburg to Munich - Dep. 06:39, Arv. 08:33, Time 1H:54M, direct - Train from Munich to Venice - Dep. 09:31, Arv. 17:10, 1 change at Verona Porta Nuova - Familiarization > Day 11 - Venice, touring (Doge's Palace?) > Day 12 - Train to Florence (Dep. 10:27, Arv. 12:30, Time 2H:03M, Reservations compulsory) - Familiarization (visit Uffizi, Ponte Vecchio?) > Day 13 - Florence, Accademia (Statue of David) > Day 14 - Train to Rome (Dep. 12:10, Arv. 13:45, Time 1H:35M, Reservations compulsory) - Familiarization > Day 15- Rome, touring (Colosseum, Forum, Vatican?) > Day 16 - Rome, touring > Day 17 - Leonardo Express or Shuttle to Airport / FCO and flight home Of course, this is only one suggested Itinerary so it could easily be adjusted to fit the preferences of your group. Even though all one night stops have been removed, this is still going to be a fairly "busy" trip. Note that the train departure times shown are just suggestions. There are many departures each day. Check www.bahn.de for the details. With the rail trips in Germany, Lee or one of the others can advise on the most economical tickets. With the rail trips in Italy, check the excellent www.roninrome.com website for information on the "Mini" fares, which are much less expensive (but do come with some conditions). continued.....

felicia, Part 3..... Hostel stays will be about €30 per person, per night in Dorm rooms. Some Hostels have "doubles" which might work for the Chaperones (usually two single beds are provided). You might have a look at the HI Hostels website. I've found these to be reasonably priced and the facilities are fairly consistent from one location to the next. They often host school groups, so your group would probably feel right at home. Having an inexpensive HI Membership provides slightly cheaper rates. Of course, when staying in Hostels, you'll have to pack Towels (Microfibre types work well and are easy to pack - check the Travel Store on this website for examples), soap and individual Padlocks for Lockers. Rick's Guidebooks have excellent listings for budget Hotels in most of the places you'll be staying. Some have quad rooms, but I'm not sure those are too common? You'll have to do some "number crunching" on whether Hotels or Hostels will be more cost effective. You may have to use Hostels in some locations and budget Hotels in other locations. I can recommend a good Hostel in Rome if you need it (it's not an HI property though, but it's an easy walk from Termini station). I'd suggest checking your local Library or Bookstores to find Guidebooks (preferably RS Guidebooks) for each of the places you'll be visiting. It would be a good idea to do some pre-planning on which sights you want to visit in each location, so that you don't waste ANY time. When planning sightseeing, you'll probably have to get a consensus from the group. The Guidebooks also have lots of good suggestions on ways to save time and money (ie: how to avoid the queues at the Colosseum). continued....

felicia, Last part..... It would be a good idea for each member of the group to have a MoneyBelt. You may want to do some research on the typical "scams" that can occur in Europe, and the potential for pickpockets. Another point to consider - will any of you be travelling with Cellphones, iPads, Hair Curlers / Dryers / Straighteners. You'll need to BE SURE that any device you travel with is designed for "world operation", and will have to pack appropriate Plug Adapters. In the case of Cell phones, whether the phones will even work in Europe will depend on which cell network each of you are with. Most importantly those who plan to take Smartphones (ie: iPhones, Android or Blackberries) are STRONGLY advised to do some research on "data roaming" as the charges can be horrendous! For example, a woman in this area recently travelled to Egypt for two weeks and came home to find a $37,000 bill waiting in her mailbox. I'm sure the others will have lots to add. Whew! Time for a glass of Wine!

I want to highlight some of the tips you've received. Ken's $ cautions are solid. Rome and Florence are on the top 10 list of cities for pickpockets! "The single biggest expense you have direct control over is ground transport costs. The less ground you try to cover, the less you spend." I would add that you will all enjoy a greater level of satisfaction, security and sanity the less you move around. Many of our posts, mine included, have probably been wrong help you squeeze in all these places, an effort that might actually compromise the success of your trip. Someone called your task "Herculean" - and it is. Knowledge is your big hurdle right now. Jo's plea that you "do a little more research on the towns and cities you are visiting" should be heeded, because THERE IS a lot more to see and do in your target destinations than you are allotting time for. My impression is that the girls are in a fantasy candy store right now, and being unsure how to direct them, you have a plan that is doing too much to accommodate all their dream destinations and truly is "FAR too ambitious." Ideas like "Venice. experience the romance as it looks in the movies" are to be expected from teens. Now, maybe Venice is a valid destination on this 2-week trip. But it's also true that they have decades of living to return to Europe and to realize their romantic fantasies after they return from your trip. In the end, you need to build consensus from the girl's dreamy desires and guide SOME of the girls' wishes into a workable plan that is valuable and that doesn't involve racing frantically from here to there - and losing luggage, passports, money to pickpockets, or children for that matter, on the way. If you don't, everyone's likely to get a big tummy ache.

"Any opinions about Dachau?" Extremely valuable, very moving. It will ruin your day. Don't try to fit in something frivolous afterward (or before.) "I also think I need to check into our room before we site see or we are hauling our luggage around town" Good that you're thinking about such details. Most hotels and hostels will take your bags if you arrive early. It's obvious that staying near the station is a good idea in this regard. Imagine for a minute that you had only 3 places to check into on your trip. That would be much simpler with a large group of kids and minimize exposure to loss, etc., right? Suggestion: Stay 4-5 days in just three base towns and daytrip to others. (BTW, you won't find rooms for "several people" outside of hostels or apartments, generally.) Base #1. Adelboden Base #2. Germany: You don't have to stay in Munich if you don't want to. PRIEN is a peaceful town on Chiemsee Lake mid-way between Munich and Salzburg; you could daytrip to Salzburg, Munich, and Dachau in one hour or less by train each way, 29 Euros round trip per group of 5 (on a Bayern Ticket daypass.) There's an official HI hostel there that runs about 18 Euros per head, a 15-min. walk from the station http://www.jugendherberge.de/en/hostels/search/portrait/jh.jsp?IDJH=260 Herrenchiemsee Palace is there: http://www.herrenchiemsee.de/englisch/n_palace/index.htm

(cont.) Base #3a.) Italy: VERONA. Drop Rome, #2 on the list of world pickpocket capitals. What's more romantic than the setting for Romeo and Juliet? Verona itself is beautiful. And you're only 1 hour from Venice, 1.5 from Florence for daytrips. Splurge on a nice hotel near the station with the money you save by not traveling seeing Rome. OR: Base #3b.) ROME. Drop Venice. You can spend all your time in Rome easily, or on one day take the train 1.5 hours to Florence for a daytrip. This way, you have just two long train trips :)

Nigel, The T/A DE gave good information, you just misinterpreted it, aided by some lack of info from the DE. He is taking about trains going from Memmingen or Fuessen TO Munich. In that case, the direct train to Munich stops on Gleis 3 and the connecting train stops on Gleis 2. That (2-3) is a cross platform change. But the schedule you posted is for an EC coming from Lindau and stopping on Gleis 3. The transfer to Gleis 4 and the train to Fuessen is not cross platform.

Very good suggestions from Russ, in my opinion....

I'd use Munich as a base and do Marienplatz/Dachau one day and Fuessen another. If you stay in Munich, you could easily do Marienplatz and Dachau in a day. Don't try it on a Monday; the Memorial is closed on Mondays. Try to be in Marienplatz at 11:00 because that's when the Glockspiel does it's big thing. From Marienplatz, it will take just over 40 min by S-Bahn (S2) and bus to the Dachau Memorial. There is an English tour at 1:00 PM. You might be able to arrange a group tour at another time is you call. Or you can do it yourself with audio guides. The Memorial's tour cost €3 and takes 2½ hours, so you could be ready to go back to downtown by 3:30. There is a direct bus leaving the Memorial at 3:46 PM. It gets you back to the Hbf at 4:30 PM. The next bus/S-Bahn runs 20 min later.

I can help you with this. I took a bus trip to Kandersteg/Adelboden (to see the hut) last winter with a bus load of 6-12th grade girls. I feel your pain and I wasn't even the one organizing it. The hut was really neat with it's history and placement on the hill. The location is great for hiking. For starters, I think they send a shuttle down to the Adelboden or Frutingen station to pick you up??? You should check on that. They also have a meal plan there to eat at the chalet. It's a hike into town (it's on a hill, especially if you're from a flat part of TX), so considering the meal plan is smart. It's usually completely full in summer, you'll meet people from all over the world. I know hitting all the great towns of Munich and Salzburg sounds good, but I suggest heading directly over to Venice by train after the chalet, possibly stop in Verona. Then you can take the train to Rome from there, stopping in Florence along your way. If you want some really good info, PM me and I'll put you in contact with our local GS leaders who plan these trips all the time around here (to London, Belgium, etc.). They're experts and know how long the girls will last and what they would want to see. Good luck!

Kathy, great advice! BTW, as one who married a Texan and lived in the Lone Star State for many years, just to note that Tulsa is one State north, Oklahoma, OK.

Suggestion - take a look at the RS Best of Europe tours for an idea of which places are visited and for how many days. Most tour companies have a similar tour, Globus, Cosmos, Go Ahead to name a few. I am not suggesting that you book such a group tour just take a look at their daily itinerary and it may help with your planning.

You might also want to take a look at the cost of renting a car or two for the trip or parts of the trip, versus train tickets for your group. If you rent one larger vehicle or two smaller vehicles and have them full, it might work out to be cheaper to rent a car for all or part of your journey and you'll have a little more flexibility on your routes and itinerary. You can take some smaller highways and get off the beaten path a bit that way and might also be able to stay in hotels or hostels that are a little off the beaten path and less expensive since you won't be relying on public transportation to get to your lodging. Driving in Europe is different than in the US and it may not be worth the hassle if you can make it work with trains and the trains aren't that much more expensive, but it's at least worth investigating the cost of renting a car and driving for part or all of the trip vs. the cost of train tickets for everyone in your group. Also, I second the recommendation of making sure that the girls (and moms) understand international roaming costs for their phones. Phones can be a great travel tool, especially for staying in touch in large groups, but the girls could end up with huge bills if they're not careful. Each carrier is a bit different, but you can rack up roaming charges like crazy, especially if you are texting a lot or using a lot of data. If your girls are anything like the teenagers I know, texting, facebooking, and e-mailing from phones are necessities. They need to understand how many texts and how much data they use in a month and what that may cost them if they continue to use it as normal while overseas. So, you may want to task them with tracking their usage for a month and figuring out how they'll handle it while overseas.

I have read and thought about all this wonderful info so far. here are some of my additional thoughts, ideas, and questions. the girls and I met this past summer to do some trip planning. they all researched many different places and activities of interest. they made a very long list of things to do in each location. We ignorantly just picked a few highlights in each place knowing we would not have time in any places to see it all and also get to all the places everyone want to go to. SO..I am convinced to downsize our destinations. I am trying to gather as much info as possible to bring to a meeting with the girls on their Christmas break. I try to balance giving them as much say and opportunity to research trip ideas with knowing it is impossible for them to have the maturity to understand time, distance and the stress of being tired and together so much. So, I am trying to narrow down the choices some more before the girls research some more. It feels disappointing to them to research cool places only to hear we have to leave that one out. I know, that is life and reality but I like to be the good guy. I do think the map/yarn exercise will be good. Also, the exercise to write down the true travel times not just the train times to see how much day is leftover for fun.

I took the girls on the train to chicago a few years back and we stayed at HI hostel in chicago. It was a great experience so am very glad to hear HI hostel is in Europe and recommended. Every other trip I have taken the girls on, I have gone to the location ahead of time and checked everything out myself. It is not really practical to check these Europe options out personally so all these suggestions are great. Does anyone have and experiences with BED AND BREAKFAST PLACES? Good reminder for me that it takes time to create memories. I am guilty of wanting to take the perfect photo. The girls have read quite a bit about the Holocaust, had surviviors speak at their school, etc. I'm not sure how to help them transition after we leave Dachau. I will be sobbing. I don't even like to watch movies with any meanness.
Now that you guys have given me so many tips about the train, I need to look at the website and see if it will mamke sense to me. I wonder how long and far to go from Frutigen to Verona? As I am looking at choices for places to stay during our trip, is there anything that I should look for or ask that would make it a bed place to stay. Any ideas on how to determine where is safe to stay? We are very accustomed to A/C in oklahoma. I noticed that many places have no A/C. Is that a problem or something to consider when we are picking where to stay?

I tend to like meaningful and educational myself so ideas toward that goal along with fun are good. Sane is also a great goal towards making the herculean task feel successful. And yes, thank you for all those that have bought Girl Scout cookies. We will be selling again before our trip. If each girl sells 8000 boxes of cookies, it should pay for her trip:) As far as pre planning, I am the queen, I prefer to have the trip all planned out with directions, tickets restaurant menus from the local areas already translated to english, all for the entire trip. However, this much planned detail also requires me to be flexible because the need to flex will arise and some things will not go as expected. I am trying to zero in on which cities to go to and where to stay and how to get there. Then the girls can do some more research. I am trying to leave cell phones and curling irons, etc. @ home. I generally have them disconnect from electronics to get the full group experience. RUSS, you nailed me with attempting to accommodate everyone's dream. Good reality check for me. I had 1 missing 8 year old girl in silver dollar city for 5 mins many years ago so we all know we don't want to do that again. all of this group was on that trip back then and we have all grown and learned much.
Prien and Verona both sound promising. I'll check on those.

One more response. I have some great mums going to help with this trip. However, none of us want to be a driver as it would feel like we were always working and never able to relax and enjoy the trip. Plus we don't want to have to be so focused all the time on where we are going, getting lost, etc. And we really thought our train ride to chicago was fun and relaxing.

Felicia= One thing to consider- you may NOT be able to put "several" people in a room. Most rooms are for 2 people only. They MIGHT put in a roll-away for a 3rd person, but many rooms simply are not big enough. There will also probably be a significat increase in the price for doing so. The rooms in Europe are generally smaller and not all hotels have triples, quads or "family rooms". Some hostels do have family rooms, however. I'd also look into University /College lodging. Many European schools rent "excess" rooms/apartments to tourists.

Felicia... sounds like a great experience, and you have lots of people intrigued here who want to help out with your plans. A few suggestions from here... definitely leaving the electronics home is a good idea, and I would also suggest you have everyone do a journal. I have taken a few of my grandkids to Europe and made a sort of 'trip log' for them to fill out each day as to specifics...where we went, what they saw, memorable moments, etc as well as places for notes, and sketching. There is so much going on you just forget it. Written in their own handwriting versus a computer is very special. The other think that I think might be beneficial for you as well as the girls is to see how to navigate/be flexible to someplace you have not been before. You all get to experience it the same way instead of you being the 'tour guide' you are the traveler along with the girls. I think it will add to your trip. I always try to see new things for the first time right along with the kids, as well as sometimes taking them to a place I want to share, but, discovering someplace new together is the most fun! If you PM me I can send you to a link that has my trip log and you can make one up for the girls. I found that if there were places for thoughts as well as 'fill in the blank' made it easier to start the kids writing. (You will be changing these girls lives with this trip)

"Does anyone have and experiences with BED AND BREAKFAST PLACES?" Thousands of customer comments are posted at Tripadvisor. Here's Verona's B&B page: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotels-g187871-c2-Verona_Veneto-Hotels.html Keep in mind that many hotels include breakfast and offer a wider range of support services, generally, than a B&B; also, B&B's are less likely to offer a/c or to have enough rooms to accommodate your group. Remember to keep walking distance to the train station to 15 min. if possible. Best Frutigen to Verona train connections: 5 hours w/ 1 change on the 8:25 departure, or 5 hours w/ 2 changes on the 14:25 departure. Check schedule of course for your travel days.

A concern about hostels in Germany: Although the official HI hostels in Germany can be great, school groups are their main customers, and they are frequently overrun by totally unruly kids with ineffective teacher-leaders on week-long educational outings, a common feature of German schools; I cannot explain why neither the leaders nor the hostel staff take charge in such situations, but I've had several hostel stays ruined in this way and now will use hostels only in late July and August or over Christmas, vacation periods when the kids are at home with their parents. A good alternative to hostels in Germany would be vacation apartments. Lots of Bavarian towns like Prien have a lot of these. Most are registered with the local tourist authority, and you can use the TI office to get brochures, info, and maybe booking assistance. It might be handy to be able to do your own meals, pack your own lunches for outings, etc. There's often a 3-5 night minimum; there's usually a base price for 2 with a charge for additional persons. I saw this place on Prien's tourism pages - it's 2 apartments, one w/ 6 beds and another w/4 + sleeping cots; it's steps from the station and convenient to town and the lake. If there are 10 of you, you'd pay about 200 €/night. http://tportal.toubiz.de/prien/ukv/house/DEU00000060054125476 Prien 2010 online brochure w/ TI contact info: http://www.tourismus.prien.de/files/tourismus_brochure/ggv_2010_engl_6s_web.pdf (look at the "B" season rates, good through June 26.) Prien accommodations search: http://tportal.toubiz.de/prien/ukv

Forgot to mention... In addition to Herrenchiemsee palace, the Kampenwand is just a few minutes from Prien: http://tourismus.prien.de/files/tourismus_PDF_en/kampenwand_sommer_09.pdf

Felicia, to add a fresh voice to the fray, you may have to rethink the Florence on a Monday idea - museums are closed on Mondays in Italy, with few exceptions. Venice is slow traveling once you get there because travel on water (with a group on a budget) takes more time than public transportation on land.

Here's another idea I tried with my own kids which, I know is different than the group you are taking. But it did help me NOT feel totally responsible for everyone's happiness while on the trip and it gave my kids the opportunity to be an important member of our travelling team. And surprise, surprise, my 14 year old and 17 year old did a fantastic job!
Once we (I) had our route planned, each trip member researched possible sights and stops of interests. I compiled them into a group list of 3 or so possible things to do each day. Then everyone got to be "leader for the day" with the responsibility of the pacing, when and where to stop for food, decisions about how many and which of the things we would do that day, how to get around on the subway, etc. (Not on travel days.) Advantages: each member got to choose and do something they wanted to on their day, I didn't have to make all the decisions, if you ate somewhere you didn't like, then you got to choose at least one day where YOU wanted to eat. Also, to break up the "joy" of too much togetherness, we chose places where we felt okay letting our kids wander on their own (eg. Venice,museums).

Having read felicia's newer responses and those of others, here are a few additional thoughts/opinions; 1) Driving is not a good choice at all in your situation. For a family of 3-5, spending more time in more rural areas, yes. For your group - absolutely not. Larger vehicles are difficult to maneuver and 3x the cost of a small sedan. Just say no... 2) I love the idea of having the kids do research and some trip planning re what to do while in a location. However, I doubt very much that the kids would be in the best position to make the big choices re where to stop and how long to stay in each place. They just don't have that level of wisdom yet no matter how much coaching you give. I think it's the adult's job to consolidate the wishes/dreams of the kids into a skeletal itinerary. Leave it to the kids to fill in the spaces... 3) We have stayed at a couple dozen hostels between mid-June and mid-July and only once encountered any large group of students being anything other than completely under control. On that occasion, they were fun-loving and joyful and yes, a bit loud at times - but never to the point of being a problem. That's part of what makes a hostel more enjoyable for your kids than a hotel. 4) B&B? No, not enough space and too expensive. 5) Apartment? Fantastic choice for stays of several days or more in one place. Some are even quite large. But I don't see how this works for you. 6) I'm not clear yet on why the time limit is what it is. The kids not getting along for more than 11 days? ...Really? If it's cost; well if you were planning on getting by on $200/day, I could probably find a way to make that work on $100/day with some different choices. The longer you stay, the more potential you have to make economical choices & the more you get out of the experience.

felicia, You've received lots of great suggestions so far! How's the planning coming along? I most definitely agree with others regarding car rentals and driving. This introduces numerous "complications" into the situation, and would NOT be a good idea. In the same situation, I'd tend to keep the list of destinations much the same as you originally mentioned, as the places chosen are important to various members of your group. I'd skip Verona on this trip and stay with original plan. However, you may have to remove at least one location in order to fit the time frame. If you can add some time to the trip, this might not be a concern.

it feels like you guys are all my new friends. Trip planning is coming along much better with all these grand ideas. There are several reasons for the limit on the length of our trip. We can't leave town before June 8th (school schedule and a previous commitment). We need to be leaving to come home on either thurs june 21 or friday june 22. Both of the other moms going with me only have 2 weeks of vacation time from their jobs. Also, the girls are involved in summer camps, summer jobs, college preparations, etc. It is challenging to get everyone's schedules together. We started 3 years ago to get everyone to keep their schedules clear as possible for june 2012. We started out only going to the chalet in switzerland. It seems similar to a house remodel project in that it keeps growing. So, now we are working to get back in budget(both time and money). Trip plans thoughts: arrive zurich sat. june9. stay at chalet and see switzerland for 3 nights. Leave on tues june 12.
I think we should skip Rome. A few of the girls really wanted to go there but I was never really sure about it to begin with. I think that I was working to hard to make Rome happen. I never really had a peace about going to Rome and several of you suggested skipping it for various reasons. It is too far, sounds hot, crowded, and likely for some of us to experience the nasty personal invasion of theft. It seems fine to leave southern Italy for another time and trip.

It seems wisdom to minimize the number of places we relocate to sleep. I can see how that will burn up both time and money and we will get plenty of train time anyway. With that in mind, it seems even more important to make good, well-thought-out decisions on what kind of place we are going to stay. I think one of them should be a hostel for the experience for the girls. I hope we do not have the misfortune of the unruly kids that were mentioned. It sounds similar to being in a hotel on new years eve(not my favorite). Seems likely to skip Fussen especially is we can find a better and alternate castle which it sounds like should not be a problem. In the US, I enjoy Band B, they are usually very nice, helpful and accommodating. However, with this group, it would have to be just the right place, price and we would likely need the whole house so it does not seem likely. If we stay in our locations longer, it seems more likely to by groceries and put together some of our own meals. With that it mind, maybe some type of an apt will work. I still hope to see Venice and Florence. Verona sounded interesting. It seems reasonable to find a place to stay that meets our needs and day trip to Venice and Florence. I don't have enough info yet to know if that base location is Verona or somewhere else. I am always open to hear from " my new travel friends".

felicia, "It is too far, sounds hot, crowded, and likely for some of us to experience the nasty personal invasion of theft." In my experience, the other locations you plan on visiting in Italy could also be "hot, crowded" at that time of year. Theft will be an issue in most larger cities in Europe, so avoiding Rome will not appreciably decrease the likelihood of theft. Given the limited time you have available for this trip, I'd probably consider something like this to get things sorted: > Have everyone in your group make a list of the top six or so places they most want to visit, arranged in their order of priority. They can submit their lists to you via E-mail. > When you receive all the lists, compile one "master list", arranged in order of most popular to least popular, with the Chalet in Adelboden as No. 1. > Compile an Itinerary using the top five (or so) choices on your list. With a two week trip, I don't believe you'll have time for more than four or five different locations. Once you have that information, it should be relatively easy to work out a logical route, and the other details (lodgings, etc.) should fall into place fairly quickly. This is a somewhat "democratic" method of choosing which five locations to visit, as the places will have been chosen by the majority. This eliminates personal bias as the places you'll choose will be solely determined by how many "votes" each one gets. No doubt some will be disappointed if one of "their" chosen locations isn't included, but with the time limit compromise will be essential. Good luck!

The girls liked the movie letters to Juliette and so Verona sounds like an agreeable possibility but I don't want to add places unnecessarily. Also, how many days should we see venice? I think a one day day trip to florence should be enough for florence. I am not sure whether to leave Switzerland and go to Italy or the munich/salzburg area next. Some factors I need to consider are: where are we flying home from, what are the best flight options. It is my preference to fly direct to US when we leave instead of changing planes internationally, just for the sake of simplicity and safety since I am responsible for other people's children. My limited knowledge is that I will have some decent flight options from munich, so I would need to finish the trip in munich. This puts going to verona or similar after switzerland.
I know many of you are not "all that jazzed" about salzburg. However, I do think the girls will like it, the bike sound of music tour sounds interesting, walking and shopping around, there is a castle, cathedral in mondsee, we all love the sound of music movie, these girls want to sing thru europe. They are unbelievably great kids and I do hope this trip has a great impact on their life and even in some ways helps prepare them for college. So, all that rambling to say, maybe we would like to stay a few nights in salzburg to "do" salzburg and then a few nights in munich to see munich and dachau. One hesitation with this plan is that it basically leaves dachau for the end of the trip. This seems like such a downer/sad way to end such a wonderful trip. I look forward to what new ideas yall (okie for you all) have for me.

Please excuse all my typos and grammatical errors. I am a bit embarrassed when I reread my posts. My own post said Band B and I couldn't figure out what I was talking about. It was B & B. anyway, thanks for all the ideas. I think my last post crossed with ken before I finished.

Lots of hostels and B&B's in Venice, including a YHA (International Youth Hostel Asociation) one: http://www.hostelworld.com/hostels/Venice

"Russ mentioned Padua and it seems promising. I would love to see Venice at night. Is that still possible if we are staying outside of Venice? How late does the train run and is it safe to travel by train back to our base camp after dark?" Hey, why aren't you checking the train schedules on your own by now? Actually, I'll give you a pass, as it looks like the German railways site, good for all of Europe, hasn't loaded up all the June trains yet. But this week, there's a final "R" (regional, cheap) 22:17 train direct from Venezia Santa Lucia to Padova. So it's safe to assume there'll be trains at least that late in summer. And I'd say it's probably just as safe or safer to travel by train at night as it is to wander around Venice at night. Pickpockets have unconventional work schedules, and they're more likely to be in Venice with the tourist horde than on your train or in Padua. You can read what others say about Padua here: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Tourism-g187867-Padua_Veneto-Vacations.html

I still think you'd be wise to consider staying in one place for about a week in Germany - Prien or thereabouts - and daytripping to Munich and Salzburg. The area is supremely scenic; Herrenchiemsee Palace, on an island in Chiemsee lake, is great. You can hike in the mountains at the Kampenwand. It's just an hour to Munich or Salzburg; trains leave Prien between 9 and 10 am (Bayern ticket is valid after 9 weekdays) and leave Salzburg for Prien as late as 22:58 pm, Munich as late as 23:50. And the Bayern Ticket, only about 6€ each per day, is a further bargain since it's good for any and all transportation within Munich too, including your trip to Dachau. Also, your accommodations will be priced better than in the larger cities, where you'd have to stay on the outskirts to get anything comparable. And the morning train gives you a place to lay out plans for the day, a place to recap the day in the evening. Maybe the hostel or the apartments I gave you before would work. There's also this place in Prien, which has 7 apartments for 2-3 each, priced between 39 and 60 Euros/night. The pic's look great. In German, but click on the blue links w/ the name of the apartment for photos. http://gaestehaus-rosin.wtp2.de/appartements/appartements.html And I'd contact the Orien tourist office to see if they have brochures/suggestions too. Paradise is in CA.

I think you mean "Prien tourist office", not the "Orien" tourist office.

Just to chime in on a few of the items from overnight, felicia I'm jazzed about Salzburg. Can't fault it. Hike up to the Festung, walk around, ride the funicular down, walk, respectfully, through the old cemetery, buy bread from one of the world's oldest bread bakeries around back, visit Mozart's house, walk through the University, listen to classical music outdoors, ride the dancing tourboat on the river (yes the boat dances), ride bikes, sing, walk through (dance?) the gardens, see the dwarf statues, eat pastry at one of the world's best, go down a salt mine and slide down the banisters, visit AugustinerBrau (nobody has to have alcohol) for great food and atmosphere, eat Mozart Balls, go over the border to the Eagles Nest (once the history has been explained it is also a great place for walking at altitude) - = - what's not to like - great for a small group of Girl Scouts. Venice at night - so much better than a day trip. After the cruise ships and day trippers have left and your group has go lost on the back lanes a few times - magical. Florence - too much for a day trip - climb Giotto's tower (or the dome), statues, Baptistery, walk into town through the rose gardens from P Michaelangelo, visit the orphanage, two or three other churches for the church and the art. The Uffizi - so much to do in Firenze.

"Verona sounds like an agreeable possibility but I don't want to add places unnecessarily. Also, how many days should we see venice? I think a one day day trip to florence should be enough for florence." I'd probably allot 2 days for Venice. And if you're energetic and organized, an early start could allow for one day in Florence. It's possible to stay in Venice and daytrip to Florence. But Venice is wildly expensive for what you get. And it's so crowded that as you walk down the street, you are literally shoulder to shoulder with fellow tourists much of the time, not a relaxing sort of place to be stuck for 4-5 days, IMO. With a base like Verona, you can daytrip in for a day without luggage, and THEN decide to try Venice a second day if you wished, or just enjoy Verona in a more relaxed fashion. I suggested Verona based on my favorable impressions of the place. But as nice as Verona is, it might not be the ideal base for train travel if you're doing multiple daytrips into Venice. You'd probably want to use the high-speed trains to get there and back for both Florence and Venice, given the distances, and those costs will add up quickly at 30€ each way to Venice. I can't vouch personally for Padua, but you might look into it. It's a stop on the line between Venice and Florence, quite close to Venice. If it's as fine a place as it seems, you could ride the extra cheap R (regional) trains into Venice in about 35 minutes for 3.50€ instead of the pricey high-speed trains. Then use the high-speed train ONCE for the longer daytrip to Florence (about 1.5 hrs.) It would very likely save you some time and € on your daytrips. Padua does have an official HI hostel.

Group discounts on train travel in Italy: http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=8cd6438a5719a110VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD

Russ, where is paradise?

" sing, walk through (dance?) the gardens, see the dwarf statues" The Do-Re-Mi steps, the Pegasus statue, and the dwarfs are all behind Mirabelle Palace, which is half way between the Hbf and the old town on Rainierstrasse. The arbor they run through is also there. Just about every bus from the plaza in front of the Hbf to the old town goes down Rainierstrasse past Mirabelle palace. We walked from the Hbf to the old town (it's not that far) and stumbled on Mirabelle. Mirabelle is one of the few "venues" from Sound of Music that you can visit. Most of the movie, including the interior shots of the Abbey and the Von Trapp home, the cemetery, and the song and dance scenes at the Gazebo were shot in Hollywood, in sound stages where they could control the lighting (and rain). Contrary to Tour propaganda, nothing was shot at Leopoldskron. They wanted to use it as the Von Trapp home, but is was being used as a school, and the school didn't want the disruption. They used another home, the Frohnburg, which is not on a lake, as the Von Tramp home for half the "lakeside" shots. The other half of the "lakeside" shots were a temporary lakeside set made to look like the patio at Leopoldskron.

So today I am considering what would be the best place to stay in Italy to maximize our Italian experience and see Venice and Florence. Russ mentioned Padua and it seems promising. I would love to see Venice at night. Is that still possible if we are staying outside of Venice? How late does the train run and is it safe to travel by train back to our base camp after dark? Does bus or whatever other city transportation we need also run late? It is very helpful for those of you who understand the train system to make suggestions. I can see how being able to maximize the train system can save us alot of time and money. I would love for us to stay in some fun Hotel somewhere if we can find one affordable. Something quaint, with a lovely view, clean with a common area for our group to be able to gather and visit in. Or, maybe we stay in a hostel in Italy and can find some quaint hotel in Munich or Salzburg. It does seem that we will need to fly home from Munich so I like the suggestion of staying close to the airport for that last location. I read a few post on travel adviser about a for day trips to Venice. Seems I saw the names Marco and Rachel. Does any one have any experience with personal guides in Venice? It seems it would be very helpful and more likely to get the most out of our time in Venice???

I am late in joining the conversation but I have some suggestions about routes. This is easy to do by train. From the Zurich airport, you can reach Frutigen in a little over 2 hours. Trains depart right from the airport terminal. The easiest route has you change trains at Bern and Spiez, very easy places to change. I am not familiar with the Girl Scout chalet at Adelboden, but we have seen the International Scouting campsite at Kandersteg many times. I'll look up the location of the Girl Scout chalet and see if there are any special difficulties in getting there. From Frutigen, assuming Italy destinations other than Rome are still on the list, You could go iin this order: Frutigen to Firenze. Train from Frutigen to Milan, 3 hours, with a single change at Brig. At Milan, take the fast ES train to Firenze in 1 hour 45 minutes. Spend 2 nights in Firenze. There is so much more to see than the David: climb the Duomo (have them read Brunelleschi's Dome to see how it was constructed and learn about florentine politics at that time), Boboli or Bardini Gardens (our teen daughters much preferred the Bardini), take a hike up to the San Miniato Church for views of the city. Firenze to Venice, 2 hours by direct ES train. Venice to Verona, an hour to hour and a half. Verona to Salzburg, just over 6 hours, with one change on the way. Salzburg to Munich, about 1.5 hours. With one night each in Venice, Verona and Salzburg, you have 3 nights left for Munich and the surrounding area. This itinerary assumes you are flying out of Munich. You will need several nights there if you want to visit Dachau and the castles near Fussen.

And if you have given up the idea of the Fussen castles (probably a good idea) but still want a castle, you could visit Chateau de Chillon near Montreux. There is an excellent hostel at Vevey, nearby: http://www.rivieralodge.ch/ Chateau de Chillon is a "real" castle (meaning historical, not a fairytale castle like Neuschwanstein)) and you can wander at will without a guide. The location, on Lake Geneva (Lac Leman) is very scenic. This would add a night in Switzerland on your way from Frutigen to Firenze. Frutigen to Vevey is 2.5 hours by trains. Vevey to Firenze would take the same amount of time as going from Frutigen to Firenze. BTW, we were in Italy last year with our 2 daughters about the same time as you, late June. They absolutely loved Verona, for reasons that had nothing to do with Romeo and Juliet--it is just a pretty town with lots of history, including a Roman arena that is in much better shape than the Coliseum in Rome.

I've been following this thread about Girl Scouts all the way along, and loved Felicia's tongue-in-cheek remark about each girl having to sell 8000 boxes of cookies. Today I received a wicked e-mail, with a picture of a house on fire in the background, and in the foreground a girl scout with a sly and satanic smile on her face. In large black type, the message reads "Next time buy the bloody cookies!"

So many people have contributed so much here. I don't want to try to put any ideas before any others yet I think the following should be said: A couple of years back my wife and I were on our (nearly) annual journey to Venice and we thought, we have seen Venice so many times and done the night-time walks and many other things, why don't we stay out in the Veneto in Padova (Padua). I've been frequently to Italy, north and south, but that particular experiment wasn't particularly successful. The Scrovengi Chapel in Padova is fantastic, but as far as we are concerned the area around the station was not very savoury. We were uncomfortable leaving our car near the station - there were many men hanging about the vicinity of the station and we just were not comfortable. Others may differ - that's what we felt. We drove each day to Mestre and left the car there, where we had used many times before. Seeing Venice at night, and early in the morning, is special. In mid June the days are at their longest, with sunset not until nearly 10pm. I'd move Heaven and Earth to see if its possible to stay in Venice at a Hostel - many good ones on the prior post. Day tripping in from Verona is too far. Padova, Vicenza, and Verona are 30, 60, 90 minutes from Venezia. 90 minutes plus both ways is too far in IMHO.

Russ, Thanks for all the info. I am checking into all of it as I can. Thanks for the pass on train schedules. I'm pretty overloaded with the learning curve needed to put all this together and I'm still pretty insecure about the train schedule interpretations. So, I appreciate your spoon feeding me the train schedules as much as you and others have time to participate in my project. I bought the book, "Europe thru the back door" and will begin digesting it as time allows. I have gone back and forth on staying in both salzburg and munich and think you are likely correct to encourage us to stay in Prien. So, today a possible schedule is: Sat. June 9 arrive Zurich, travel to adleboden and stay until tues morning June 12. Travel day on tuesday June 12 to unknown location in Italy. June 13 (wed.) Venice June 14 (thurs) Venice June 15 (friday) Florence June 16 (sat) travel to Prien, see Prien sat evening June 17 (Sund) Dachaumaybe 1:00 is the English tour?? maybe dinner in Munich on the way home. June 18 (Mond) travel for day to Salzburg June 19 (tues) travel for day to Salzburg June 20 Wed) travel for day to munich June 21 (thurs) travel for day to munich June 22 (friday) airport in Munich to come home. when I hear back from the girls, I sent the suggested email to poll their preferences, we could maybe stay a day longer in Italy, a day less in Munich or Salzburg. Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts. thanks.
Buy Girl Scout cookies when you get the chance!!

Felicia, for Padua, check Tripadvisor. The Hotel Al Cason is near the station, reasonably priced, and gets top marks. http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g187867-d237359-Reviews-Hotel_Al_Cason-Padua_Veneto.html I'd suggest tossing any questions you have at the Destination Expert for Padua, ceccoman, on the Tripadvisor Forum too. He may know about hostels, and may shed further light on Nigel's comments. http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowForum-g187867-i1294-Padua_Veneto.html

As a working plan that looks pretty doable to me. But you'll need to make sure that the sights you plan to see will be open on those days. Are you sleeping near the airport on the 22nd and flying out on the 23rd? That would make sense. If you end up staying in Prien that week, you might consider a "down" day on the 20th or 21st to just enjoy that area, as you're going to be in Munich on 4 separate days anyway. You should consult the moms too. If they're sturdy, they can probably manage the day-long outings as long as there's some time to relax and some good food. Maybe build in some "return-to-base-early" alternatives for those who get ill or may need to call it quits earlier than expected.

felicia, To add to the comments posted by Nigel, I believe the RS Guidebook also lists some "cautions" for some areas of Padova. While it may have some interesting sights, it wouldn't be my choice for this particular trip. One thought that came to mind for "unknown location in Italy" on the way from Switzerland, would be a short stop in Stresa. It's somewhat "on the way" and only an hour from Milan. I'm not sure you'll have time for another stop, but thought I'd mention it. Your last revised Itinerary is looking good!

Just a quick reality check on the type of accommodations needed. I don't know about Girl Scouts, but when my son was in Boy Scouts there were strict rules about the type of accommodation, type of beds (no sharing), and number of people in the room (generally requiring three, never two). In other words, hotels with a bunch of double rooms may not work for this group. Hostels that offer 4- or 6-bedded rooms, likely with 2 or 3 sets of bunk beds, would be ideal. And even if there aren't any such rules, as a mom I would be reluctant to authorize travel for my young teenage daughter if it involved staying in private double rooms in a hotel, without adult supervision, in a foreign country. Apartments or multi-person hostel rooms would be much preferred.

Another reality check-do you realize you are spending a whole dayminimum of 8 1/2 hours, say more like 10 if you include time getting to the train station and waiting for the train-getting from Florence to Priem? That seems like cruel and unusual punishment for teens and their adult chaperones. I think you need to re-order your itinerary to avoid a super long travel day like that. Or build in a stop along the way (Verona? It is right on the route.) It would help if you learned to read the timetables so you don't depend on Russ for all your ideas. Try the Swiss rail site (www.rail.ch) if you find the German one too complicated. It is very easy, in English, and will show the trains in Italy and Germany as well. You can see the places where you will change trains, and also the intermediate stops, so you will know what towns you will be traveling through. All useful information in planning a trip. And there's no need to feel so rushed or stressed. You have time to learn to read the train schedules, especially if you are not having a meeting with the girls until Christmas or so. Take the time now to develop 2 or 3 reasonable alternative itineraries-but with no 10-hour days on the train!! Then outline them to the girls and their parents, and see what they think.

Sasha, Thanks for the rooming safety concern. Yes, girl scouts have plenty of rules. They don't necessarily make the most sense but none the less, I'm sure they came about because of past problems. I do prefer a group situation for the girls. If an adult stays in the room with the girls, it has to be 2 adults. Sadly we have to assume our own moms are not safe and responsible or that it would be possible for one of the girls to manufacture false accusations and we would need a witness. I have not such worries about any of these people going and have traveled with all of them for the last 8 years. Also, girls can sleep with other girls in a full bed but a girl can only sleep with her own mother (we wouldn't do otherwise anyway). We have several combination of rooming choices that will work depending on the lodging situation but obviously some would be more preferred than others. I purchased and have begun reading "Europe thru the back door" Pretty big task. I've already used the highlighter and post it notes. Sounds like I should research places to stay in Venice. I know several choices have been recommended so I will start with those. Feel free to send any recommendations. A day off from touring around during our Germany stay is a very sane idea. thank you.

Sasha, so glad you joined the ideas. I laughed when you encouraged me to learn to read the train schedule so I was not so dependent on Russ. I know you guys are correct. It's just I actually have other stuff to do and squeezing in all this research, and reading this new book, and communicating with the girls and helping then earn their money, lalala, excuses, excuses. Anyway, I will try to tackle the train schedules soon. I also am not great technically so I think I need to print some train schedules and lay them out with a map and spend some serious time to grasp it. I am really envious of those who can even tell which platform? the train will be arriving and if a short connection is doable. In the mean time, I feel some sort of pressure to get a firm outline of stops because we are watching for hopefully a window of better airfare and may need to book airfare with minimal notice. So, I sincerely do appreciate the help and ideas who do have much better understanding than me of all things related to this big task ahead of me. I do have confidence in "with the council of many, your plans will succeed" also, my latest rough itinerary may not have been very clear. It was assuming staying 1 Place the whole time in Italy, at the time the itinerary was written, I think it was paduo?? and taking day trips to Venice and Florence so the trip to Prien was not all the way from Florence but actually that little town outside of Venice. However, I am also looking into staying in Venice and day tripping to Florence and back to Venice before leaving for Germany. Or maybe skip Florence and just go to Verona??

Felicia, all you need to take from the train schedules at this point is how long it takes to go from place to place. For planning purposes that is essential. The details on what time and which platform can be worked out later. I am glad you are aware of the "rules" and the reasons. We can disagree with them, but the reality is these organizations have to protect the kids, and protect themselves from lawsuits. This can be the end of the conversation about that detail. I do not agree with Russ' s suggestion that you limit locations to 3 and do day trips from there, at least for Italy. To really experience a place, you need to spend the night there. And doing day trips to Florence and Venice from somewhere else involves a lot of train time. Kids are very portable and enjoy the process of moving and checking in to a new place. I remember a trip I took as a teen with my Y group that involved moving every day to a new place each night. We were fine with that. I suggest you give the girls the experience of actually staying IN Venice and Florence instead of training in from elsewhere for a day trip. It will be so much more meaningful to them. And hopefully better for you as well.

We did "carry on only" when we took our daughters to Italy last summer. This was after a previous trip to France where they both brought heavy sweatshirts, full-size bottles of shampoo, etc. No more! This time, I bought them each several 3-ounce refillable plastic bottles (available at REI.com and many other stores that carry travel accessories) for their shampoo, conditioner, and lotion. Their makeup needs are already smaller than 3-ounce, so those were OK. I found 3-ounce tubes of sunscreen by Neutrogena which was a good product. Clothes were not a problem, as summer clothes pack pretty small. They even each brought a nice dress along, as we were going to the ballet in Milan. Both girls are runners, and brought running clothes that would dry quickly when washed. Their running shoes doubled as walking shoes for walking aroun town, so they only needed another pair of shoes (sandals) to go with the dress. They wore their jeans on the plane and brought one other pair, plus knee-length shorts or yoga capris. A few cute tees, one llightweight fleece, and a rain jacket completed the list. (We did encounter a fair amount of rain in Italy in late June.) You will be happiest in your travels if you insist on carry-on only. It will be a good learning exercise for the girls. And avoiding the chance of lost luggage is always a good thing.

"... do you realize you are spending a whole dayminimum of 8 1/2 hours, say more like 10...getting from Florence to Priem?" Only if they overnight in Florence beforehand, which wasn't the idea. The trip to Prien is under 6 hours from Verona on some morning departures, a little more from Padua. "I do not agree with Russ' s suggestion that you limit locations to 3 and do day trips from there, at least for Italy. To really experience a place, you need to spend the night there." A valid point. The early morning is my favorite part of the day; I like a pre-dawn walk to see how a city wakes up. And I like snooping into narrow alleyways at night to see what people are up to. But this is probably a personal preference and an "adult" prerogative. The girls won't be wandering around independently at odd hours. And unfortunately, hostels and budget places in good locations in Venice tend to be pretty dreary, based on my own experiences and on what I've heard and read. I've been to Venice on 3 occasions, always on a budget, and I've stayed in Florence and Vicenza as well. The hostel in lovely Vicenza, between Verona and Venice, was much nicer and a good bit cheaper than anything we saw in Venice. (Unfortunately, it gets you no closer to Florence than Venice does.) Finding a place in Venice like the Rick-Steves-approved Al Cason in Padua (a/c) would be improbable in that price range. It's possible to spend 2 nights in Venice and 2 in Florence, of course, or 4 in Venice and daytrip to Florence, and it probably wouldn't ruin your trip. In Florence, I'd check out the Archi Rossi hostel - well located and clean. Like Sasha says, ideally, you'll find some apartments, like the ones in Prien, or a hostel - maybe with a kitchen where you can pack lunch sacks, etc. Not sure the odds are good though.

The official Verona hostel is in an old villa - looks awesome and might be worth looking into at 18€ each with breakfast. I don't see anything wrong about waking up in Verona! http://www.ostelloverona.it/foto.html

This site has rental listings for Venice - Padua - Verona http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rentals/italy/veneto/r382

I see now. The "unknown place in Italy" is where they will stay four nights, making day trips to Florence and Venice. So Felicia, disregard my comment about the 10-hour train day.

The hostel in Verona looks lovely. I have attempted to send them an email asking for info and if private chaperon rooms are available. The form was in Italian so we'll see if I guessed correctly on how to contact them. Also, the hostel in Florence sounds very nice after reading the TA reviews. I spent hours looking for something in Venice. Venice seems the most confusing. Which area to stay in? How to get around with bridges to cross, etc. I would love to be able to figure out how to stay in Venice. However, it seems likely we will have some time when we are lost and I hope it is not when we have our luggage in tow. I've been reading the back door book and notice that rick recommends traveling with a smallish backpack and minimal stuff. While I know this is ideal, I do not think it will be possible for the entire group. I'm sure most will want to take enough to need to check a bag. The liquid/toiletry issue makes it even harder to carry everything on.

Actually, Felicia, it's not difficult to do carry-on only. If you make it a rule, they can abide by it. But if you let them do both carry-on AND a full size piece of luggage each, everyone will end up miserable. For your next meeting, take a one quart zip bag and stuff it with what the typical person needs. You can easily fit 2 travel shampoos, 1 conditioner, liquid foundation, body lotion, etc. Have them all read packing suggestions on this site and on onebag.com. I also suggest you pack a typical carry-on, either a roller bag or a backpack, and let them carry it around a bit. And pack a checked size suitcase and let them carry that around the block. Can you all believe we got to 100 posts and no one's mad at each other! Webmaster, give everyone a star!

Karen, great exercise for helping the girls understand packing. I think I will consider tackling that possibility. Commonly the girls have packing restrictions, a 5 gal bucket for camping, 1 duffel for Savannah and Chicago. I'm actually not worried about the girls. One mom going over packs.
And, how could anyone get mad on site asking for helpful ideas. I'm so thankful for all the many different ideas, suggestions, things to look up. Can anyone tell me how long all these comments will stay available? Maybe I should print them and save them for reference over the next 6 months I'll be planning this trip Nigel, it must be your night time but do you have any ideas for places to stay in Venice or what part of Venice to stay in?

Felicia, the thread will stay around indefinitely, it will just shift farther down the list as comments lessen. As long as there are current responses the thread will stay near the top.

Hi felicia, Yes, its approaching midnight here, and I just got in from a 12 hour shift. I forget how much your goal per night per girl in Euros is, but I will tell you of a really nice place in Dorsoduro in Venice. And I'll tell you why its great, and not very much money. Have you had a look at The Don Orione Cultural Center one minute walk to Zattare vaporetto stop or about 3 minute walk to Accademia, both completely level with no bridges. They have "76 rooms: single, double, triple and quadruple, all with air conditioning, private bathroom and telephone. The entire complex, both inside and in the open space areas is covered by Wi-Fi connection. They offer a service of bed and breakfast, but it is also possible to reserve lunch or dinner at the garden Restaurant "San Trovaso"." The quads are 4 single beds with an ensuite bathroom for around €200, which means about €50 per person for the splurge of Venice. I guess its 9,000 boxes each... That includes a good, filling, if somewhat basic brekkie, and wifi. The location is very nearly perfect. Easy transport, walk to the Accademia, walk or boat to San Marco, what a wonderful location, what a great place for a dawn walk around to the Customs House, and views over to San Georgio. Oh Yes... The folk who run the Religious Guest House do have some rules which you need to agree to - they're not hard. Some of the ladies usually can speak some English. They will do everything they can to help. The rooms are large, bathrooms large, very quiet, very, very, very clean. No TV, one in the lounge by the front door. Get hold of them and see what they can do for the whole group. I bet they will try.

I didn't make clear that my suggestion for Don Orione is based on personal experience. We really liked it, and their associated restaurant. It is a charity which was started by a Priest who looked after the many orphan and poor boys in Venice. As you walk around the building you can see some of the tools and parts they used. There is a church adjacent right on the fondamenta Zattare. The alley in front of the front door of the Guest House is a rio terra so it is wide. There is a school over the road, you are minutes away (on the level) from the Squero where gondolas are built. You are away from most of the crowds, yet everything is so close. I'm tired so I think I have been rambling. Sorry. If it appeals and you have any questions - shove them my way. I'm off to bed... nite nite...

The place Nigel has suggested looks great. I know the location, as it is very close to where we like to stay in Venice. The Zattere is a wide footpath along the large Giudecca canal. It is a short walk to the Accademia bridge which will take you to San Marco and the center of the action, but the location of the hotel, in Dorsoduro, is itself quite peaceful. The price ore person, 50 euro, is not much more than the hostel prices I fun (39 euro) for. Much better location and situation. I'd say Nigel found you an excellent place.

The girls are trying to figure out how to travel with enough shampoo. Hi With the greatest respect, have the girls ever looked at Elle or any of the Italian fashion magazines? Those European models use European products, easily available at European drugstores, markets, supermarkets, department stores, etc. Most have pretty good hair? They should bring just a little with them and have the adventure of shopping for further supplies. One year my wife and I were in Switzerland, on a short holiday from England, when we ran out of toothpaste. We went into the Migros supermarket in Interlaken (good place for cheap dinners and lunches in the cafeteria) and were bowled over by their selektion there. Every time we visit now we stock up, and have used no toothpaste or sunscreen except from Migros (throughout Switzerland) for something like 10 years. Another thing about shopping in Switzerland, for example, is that all the labels are in 3 languages, French, German, and Italian. It would give those girls a bit interested in languages a bit of fun. Many products, like cookie boxes, for example, are printed in many languages, maybe up to 10. If they don't run out in Switzerland, they could repeat the process in any other European country, particularly easy in Germany, Austria and Italy.

felicia If you do selekt Don Orione you should make contact with them asap, as they fill early. I don't know how many quads there are and it might be a good idea to see. Europeans tend to start to make holiday plans in mid-December, and most are cast in stone not long after the New Year. Pardon my mis-spelling. The editor here throws out certain words it may see as software commands so we are forced to spell creatively.

Can I weigh in agreeing about the packing light. If you can put your stuff on your back train connections which might be "iffy" pulling or pushing wheelie luggage, or humping it up and down stairs, can be so very easy and quick. Wash smalls in the sinks at night. Its OK to wear the same thing for 2 days running. Think practical and light. If everybody has backpacks, but one has a heavy suitcase, the entire party moves at the speed of the suitcase. Better for going up and down stairs at lodging, too, as well on subways and undergrounds. If you all have backpacks you can do an activity as you arrive in a place and you don't need to check in and leave your luggage if its out of the way.

As a suggestion, why not start a new thread, with your updated plans. This one is getting a bit unwieldy, since the forum is a bit outdated and you can't just hit last page to get to the newest posts. Those backpacks you are looking at sound awfully expensive. $100 seems excessive. If people want the roller type carrier those are fine too. I prefer to roll rather than carry it on my back, but they should be light enough to easily pick up and carry up and down stairs.

Hi Felicia, As for having enough shampoo on the trip, I would suggest this store located in the large area of Munich Central Station (Hauptbahnhof), which from your itinerary you'll be pulling into. It is the one store among its counterparts at big German train stations that struck me as having the most American products in trial/traveler size, that is, if you and the girls feel more comfortable with American labels. The store is "Müller"...just loaded with lots and lots of USA products and not pricey either.

If it is ok with everyone, it is better for me to keep everything on this same thread. I frequently go back and reconsider and look up all the many suggestions and links that have been posted. Also, I agree the backpacks I saw were a bit pricey. It was just my first look and I didn't know what to expect. Maybe I can find things cheaper on line. I am sure the girls will have an adventure all the way around with this trip, from destinations, to travel, to packing to learning to get by with less. It is a challenge to know when to save money by taking what we need with us vs. taking less and spending more money for something we might end up needing that we didn't bring. "The book" said, "assume everyone goes as good as possible and you need as little as possible" and figure out how to manage when it doesn't after you get there, ie. shop, do with out. I think the foreign products will be fun for the girls.
I'll see how to check on the orion?? place to stay and try to get thing firmed up. is it easy to book by email or online?

Apartments in Verona: The Verona Inn: Booking.com says half a mile from the station, but not in the direction of the old town - probably would want to catch a bus to see Verona proper. Some apt's for two, some for four. Gets good marks on Tripadvisor and Booking.com. You might look at venere.com too for pricing. http://www.veronainn.it/Default.aspx?language=en Another hotel option in Verona: Hotel Piccolo, 400 meters from station, good marks. Some triples - I notice the booking.com photos show a quad set-up too. http://www.piccolohotelverona.com/hotel_location/index.php

A note about hostels: membership is "required" but only at the "official" HI-affiliated hostels. The under-18's get a free membership card from HI-USA :) Adults: you can buy the HI membership ($28) or possibly a group membership? OR, it can be bought by the night at hostels like the one in Prien with a fee of 3-4 Euros per head for a "welcome stamp" that gets attached to an ID card. After 6 nights, you're a full-fledged member and no further fees apply. No membership is required at the non-HI Archi Rossi hostel in Florence. The Verona hostel, though previously HI-affiliated, appears to be independent now - no membership required there either as far as I can tell.

I've sent you a private message about an alternative in Italy that looks very promising and would still allow you to see Venice and Florence (check under "My Profile".)

Nigel, do you know if the place you mentioned in Venice has a locker to lock up our stuff while we are out or sleeping? I rules don't seem to be a problem for us. How far will we need to walk to get there? I am working on the packing situation. I have one mom that is probably going to be slow and pack more and need a roller bag. I might prefer to roll my bag also because I have a backpack for my camera equipment. However, if we can keep it down to carry on, it still seems better than big or multiple bags. The girls are trying to figure out how to travel with enough shampoo. I assume they can buy more when we get there? Do they have walmart? :)

In case NIgel doesn't see your question: The place he recommended has private rooms for up to 4 people in each. It is more hotel than hostel. You will not have to worry about lockers for your luggage as you can simply lock your rooms. It is just steps from the Zattare vaporetto stop. Look on the "where we are" map you you'll see the little boat icon just on th ewater below the Cultural Center location. You can take the vaporetto (water bus) from the main train station practically right to your door.

Lola, thanks for your help. I went shopping for luggage and backpacks today. Have a few ideas to share with the girls. Learned of a packing class that happens every thursday night but not until after the Holidays. The backpacks range from $100-$250.
The place to stay in Venice that used to be an orphanage looks and sounds very interesting.

Travel backpacks are on sale on this website right now: $80 for the convertible carry-on; $64 for the basic travel backpack that Rick used in most of his early videos. These are proportioned for maximum capacity that still fits within airline carry-on limits. No wheels, though. they are very lightweight.

Also-I agree with the above that it would be best to start a new thread, maybe calling it "Help with Europe Plans, Part 2" or something. This one is getting too long and unweildy, and we have to click over to the 4th page to see the recent answers. This one will stay right where it is, dropping down th elist a bit maybe, but it will not disappear. Also, once it stops growing you could print it out and mark it up to help find the parts you think are useful. the links will remain right here on th ewebsite anytime you want them.

Have a look at what Rick Steves' On Line shop can offer at http://travelstore.ricksteves.com/catalog/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog&parent_id=8 Sorry the editor isn't allowing all links at the moment. Lots of folk here think they are pretty good; many reasonably cheap too.

At the request of a few of the people, I attempted to start a new (whatever this page, thread, topic, is called) I hope it worked and everyone can find it because all this info is very helpful. Ron, the schedule you just mentioned seems close to what I have been thinking most recently. At the suggestion of someone, I sent an email out to the girls to have them rethink and send me their top 5 "wants" for this trip so I may adjust slighty depending on what I hear back. It is possible we would do 1 less day in Florence and 1 more day in Salzburg. I'm also still considering an alternate castle but not sure what the best alternate would be.

I do also want to have time for a day in Munich. Finding places that are good choices for us to stay/sleep strongly impact whether we stay in a central place and make day trips or stay in the town we want to see itself. Also, not sure about the return flight from Munich or if it is necessary to stay near by the airport on that last night.

Felicia, I do not recommend buying any of the travel bags from Rick Steves' business, except the "classic back door bag" (carry-on size), but you could find a lower priced bag than that. I do recommend buying some of the travel accessories from Rick Steves' "Travel Store" at this website. I like the travel alarm clock, neck wallet, eye shades, silk sheet sack, compact Toiletries kit (but it is not essential). And the Rick Steves Civita shoulder bag is satisfactory.

I recommend one more travel accessory, available from Rick Steves' "Travel Store" at this website. It is the Lamb skin travel wallet. It is a coin pouch, it has two zippered compartments. I like its size. I think the coin pouch that was for sale at some AAA travel offices is too long. Coins and a Credit card or Debit card can be in the coin pouch. Thus, it is not necessary to pull out the neck wallet or money belt, from under clothes, every time a credit card or Debit card is used.

I think you could find a hotel in Munich that is satisfactory for your group's needs. I guess one of the hotels located near the Munich train station could be adequate. It is possible to walk, carrying baggage, from a decent hotel to the Munich train station.

For the last several days of our trip I was looking at staying in a town named Prien?? which is about half way between munich and salzburg and day tripping to dachau, munich, salzburg. So, I was considering if that would be too much trouble to travel to the airport from Prien on our return day.

If you're going into Munich on your next-to-last day, you could stay there that night, or near the airport. It depends mostly on your flight time out. You'd probably want to overnight at the airport for sure if your flight leaves any earlier than 9 or 9:30. If you stay in Munich proper, it's a 40-minute train ride the next morning.

Hope everybody finds us on the new thread, Part 2

Hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving

My trip departure is soon. Plans are coming along pretty well. Although I am a bit nervous about forgetting something. I'm sure I have included tips from everyone in this herculean trip planning process. Thank you. I went back and reread this thread and am especially reviewing all the packing suggestions. So, if anyone wants to add packing suggestions or other travel tips, feel free.

"Dachau is not a city" It's unfortunate that the city of Dachau (population ~40,000) has been overshadowed by the Concentration Camp of the same name. The city has an old and interesting history, including as an artist's colony in the 19th century. Cheers!

I don't however think that there is much in Dachau to interest the younger members of the group if you were tempted to base yourselves there rather than Munich. I wouldn't want you to be disappointed. Horses for courses though.

Felicia, I have not read all of the replies because I do not have a free day, so at the risk of repeating what someone else may have suggested, try to make it to Dachau. Dachau is not a city and will not give you a city experience like Munich will, but if the girls are prepared for a visit to a concentration camp then I think they will find it a memorable experience. It's easily done as a day trip from Munich, but I doubt you would get to Salzburg for the evening without rushing around Dachau which is defeating the object in my view, especially as you want to see something of Munich as well. If you can go to Venice. I prefer it to Florence because the whole of Venice is beautiful rather than just parts of it. For the most part in Florence you could be in any Italian city, Venice is like no where else on earth.

Dachau was considered but already ruled out for several reasons. It would have been a valuable trip but we had to limit our choices and trip time to 2 weeks.
Any favorite or suggested things to pack or not pack?

Have I missed The Final Itinerary? I'm interested in where you and the girls finally decided to go...

Such fun watching you plan this trip. Kudos to you for planning a trip that will provide a lifetime of memories for your girls. Packing tips I wish I had known as a teen: PLASTIC BAGS! Tuck a few ziplocs and/or grocery style in your bag. They are invaluable for everything from "what do I do with the rest of this giant pretzel??" to motion sickness, to containing wet swimsuits, muddy clothes, loose papers and souvenir ticket stubs, etc., etc. Take less stuff! It's ok to wear things 2 or 3 times and reduce what you have to carry around. Think simple interchangeable outfits, not lots of pieces per outfit. Also, I think backpacks are perfect for teens. Kids don't mind carrying them and they are infinitely portable. As a girl scout leader, I'm sure you will be carrying a first aid kit-don't forget moleskin for blisters and a full range of meds for minor ailments. Yes, you can get them in Europe, but tracking down a pharmacy while responsible for group travel can add unneeded stress.
Lastly, pack patience, good humor, and a sense of adventure. Something will go awry. It always does. That will make the best story when you get home! Have a wonderful time!

Angela,
Thanks for the great list. We are hoping to pack light. Everyone is trying for the RS way:)

Well, I took everyone's advice to stay at least 2nites in each place and had to cut out some things because you can't do it all. Here is the current Itinerary: Arrive Zurich. Peter's van picks us up at airport, takes us to see around zurich and surrounding Switzerland on the way to the GS chalet in adleboden. I guess whatever Peter thinks we should see. I understand their is someplace with yummy chocolate truffles by the train station in Zurich. apparently these choc truffles are similar to manna in that you have to eat them right away, you can't save them or ship them. 3 nites in GS chalet in adleboden, go to german church service, hike, enjoy the alps, some GS stuff.
train frutigen to milan, change trains, remember to validate the train ticket so we don't get fined when we take train from milan to florence. Considered it, wanted to, but not taking the time to see Duomo in Milan (it was that or David), arrive Florence at 2, bus to BB, check in, appt to see David in accademia at 5. We know nothing about places to eat in Florence yet. Next moring, up early, Duomo by 8:45 to climb 460 steps to see the architecture and the top and the view, see the Baptistry doors and the surrounding square, then to central food market for picnic lunch or pizza and the leather market the to Uffizi for 4:00 afternoon appt. Other possibilities, gelato,Ponte Vecchio, Piazzale Michelangelo, some gardens. Leave florence next morning on noon train for Venice Venice arrive maybe 2 take grand canal vaperotto tour to Don Orione guest house. Not alot of plans because of recommendations to enjoy getting lost and shopping.

Venice arrive maybe 2 take grand canal vaperotto tour to Don Orione guest house. Not alot of plans because of recommendations to enjoy getting lost and shopping. Next morning, st. Marks square and basillica and ride the elevator to top of campanile, and 11:30 english tour secret passages of Doges palace, bridges of sighs. not alot of firm plans but rialto market and bridge, some churches and tour walks from RS book, mask shops, pizza, gelato, dessert at Pensione La Calcina. 2 nites Venice. then train to salzburg but we have a 5 hour stop over in VERONA. so we will have to check out bags at the train station, take the bus to Juliette's balcony for the girls to leave their letters for Juliette, depending on time, grab so dinner, and back to the train to go to salzburg, thru rosenheim so we can take the less expensive DB train to salzburg and arrive salzburg just before midnite. we will have 4 nites in salzburg. Sunday I heard there is a mass at 10:00 with great music but need to find our where. We have booked Bob's SOM tour for 2 Sunday afternoon. the girls want a bike ride/tour in salzburg, see the human chess game, mozarts house, do laundry, maybe a fortress concert, still taking ideas for salzburg. I plan to make it a little more restful, it is half way thru the trip. We have tickets to the marionette theater tues nite and catch the train wed. morning for Munich

In salzburg we are staying in Old town at Hotel Weisse Taube. RS and friends recommended. IN munich we are staying in mariott (I have points) and our last stop to be a bit more american in case we have been culturally stretched. arrive munich take local bus/train to hotel, one of you guys gave me detailed directions, see munich, not sure what and glockenspiel. next day, day trip to Neuschwanstein castle. NOt sure if it is better to take a day tour or go by train and do it our self so happy to t. ake any suggestions. The castle trip will be a long day so back to munich and fly home the next afternoon. Thanks to help from several of you, I have purchased most of the needed train tickets P to P. Trains from Venice to verona and salzburg to munich seemed worth the gamble to get cheaper regional trains after we arrive at that train station. I have learned much and spent many hours. I am sure there is still so much to learn. The whole troop is taking a packing class this thurs. nite at a local travel store. any of you that are interested and have had the time to read all this are welcome to make any additional suggestions you think would be helpful.

You asked for packing tips so I thought I would address this concern I saw mentioned in the thread. You stated that some of the girls were worried about having enough shampoo. I have shoulder length hair and 100mL of shampoo lasted me 3 weeks easily. Looks like you will be there about 11 nights so even those with long hair should be fine. Sorry if this has already been dealt with, there were a lot of posts to look through! :) Hope you all have a wonderful time!

felicia, It's good that someone brought up the topic of First Aid kits. I worked as a Paramedic for a number of years, so should have mentioned that. On that subject, one other thought came to mind. If any of your group needs prescription medication, be sure they have an adequate supply, and that it's packed in their carry-on luggage. Some here have suggested packing along a "backup" prescription, in case it's needed. Generic names would have to be used, as medications may be named differently in Europe. Also, do any of your group wear Medic Alert bracelets? Cheers!

hi felicia, this is fleshing out nicely now... bet the whole lot of you are getting excited now!! Now is the time to double check everybody's Passport. Does the hotel in Salzburg know that you will be arriving so late at night?

Nigel, we are excited. You have contributed much to our trip planning. Thank you. I sent out an email yesterday asking the girls for color copies of their passports, notarized copies of permission to travel with minors, permission for medical treatment, and scheduled a packing class for everyone at a local travel store.
Great idea to let the salzburg hotel know we will be late. I did contact them earlier and they were the ones to let me know the bus runs late. If you think of anything else, let me know. I have taken to heart your suggestion to eat gelato daily in Italy. The girls are excited about that.

A few posts ago brought up you carrying a first aid kit with moleskin. Excellent idea, but if I were you, I'd create small first aid kits for each girl. A zip bag with pre-cut moleskin, bandaids pre-treated with antibiotic ointment, antacids, etc. They can then add a small bottle of their favorite painkiller. Then most of their problems can be handled without involving your busy self.

Karen, Great idea and good to move the girls in the direction of independence. I've always tried to remember and be prepared for anything someone might forget. It's time for me to cut a few apron strings.

In ref to packing, I LOVE packing cubes. Maybe a previous poster has mentioned it, didn't read all of the posts. You can purchase them at an REI or in the "Travel Store" on this site. And, right now, there is free shipping with $50 or more. Not sure exactly when you are leaving. With, or without packing cubes, I roll all of my clothes. If you don't have the cubes you could also use large zip-loc bags. I roll all of my shirts and put in one bag. I roll all of the underwear, and put in another bag. This way I'm not pulling out the other clothes and disrupting the whole suitcase. I grab one bag, pull out what I want, then put it back in. When my shirts are rolled, I see the colors and know which one I want instead of digging through layers of shirts. I also have a large zip-loc for dirty clothes. Everything in my case is compartmentalized. I have a bag for going to the shower, electronics bag, medical bag, etc. Makes it so easy especially since I never fully unpack my luggage because I am only staying one or two nights at each location. And the clothes really don't get wrinkled if you take the time to carefully fold and roll. It's also amazing how much more you can fit in that small piece of luggage. Give it a try!

If you are still going to Dachau, suggest you sign up for tour with educational guide. I just looked up their website and they do these tours focused on teenagers. It is running late as your trip I think is soon, but if they want to do some reading about Holocaust, suggest Hana's Suitcase, only about 150 pages and was sad but uplifting true story about young girl who died in concentration camp. My sons were teenagers when they went there and it was sobering experience to say the least but am glad we went and so were they.

Felicia, for information on how to get to Neuschwanstein from Munich by train, look at this website for exact details: http://www.germantravel-info.com/fuessen.htm