Help US understand more about how UK & France are viewed in Canada

Yes, Norm, the John Cabot thing got my attention when I was reading the book. Then I was thinking of all the Canadians on the board, and the UK residents on the Board, and we even get a few Aussies. And I'm thinking, there must be different relationships between Canada and the UK, and between Canada and France, of which we aren't aware down here, or only vaguely? No, maybe not? We never talk about this stuff.

Such a broad subject and Norm did well. How about the special bonds between Canadians and the Dutch because so many Canadian soldiers liberated Holland. As so many Canadians are from great European stock many still maintain ties with the old country and keep many traditions going as is done in the US. We are not so different in a general sense. Being part of the commonwealth surely seemed to increase the bond instead of revolting against the mother ship. Different histories forge different futures.

Although I am not a full blooded Canadian (moved here 11 years ago from the US), I figure there is still an emotional tie to the monarchy even though most Canadians would not say they are monarchists. Also the East Coast has a lot of ties to Irish and Gaelic traditions, even though it has been given it's own Canadian spin. Canada also has regions that identify closely to other areas of Europe (like the Ukraine communities in Northern Alberta and the French of Quebec). From my perspective I see Canada as a "melting pot" just like the USA, but instead of everything becoming homogenized as it is down South, it seems that Canada has maintained cultural identity without sacrificing the common good. Now, don't get me wrong, there are places down in the US with strong European heritage and community, but from my experiences, it is much more so in Canada. Even in boring, old, generic Calgary.

Wow....John Cabot, an Italian sailing for England and discovering North America in 1497 * Jacques Cartier exploring the mighty St. Lawrence for France in 1534 * the massive exploitation of the fur trade (mainly beaver) by the French that led to voyageurs claiming all the land down to the mouth of the Mississippi and out to the Rockies * the same fervour for furs that brought hardy Scottish explorers to the prairies and northern Canada under the Hudson's Bay company. * The influx of United Empire Loyalists in the 1780's * the successful defence of the four Canadian colonies against an American invasion in 1812-1814 as the British were battling Napoleon * the "evolution" (as opposed to revolution) of four British colonies into the original Canada, for fear of the U.S. turning its massive armies northwards after the civil war. * There's the massive effort by a young and underpopulated country to push a rail line across the continent, passing over bogs so deep that entire steam engines would sink into the muck and disappear * the opening of our country to groups from all areas of the world to try to settle the sparsely-populated western prairies and promising they could bring their traditions with them * and the triumphs and tragedies of the explorations of our Arctic lands. * There's our country's involvement in the First World War because Britain was....and our involvement in the Second World War because we figured it was the right thing to do. * There's our "invention" of peacekeeping, and our motto of "peace, order, and good government" rather than "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Yes, we Americans wouldn't understand the link between Canada and Europe because our country was explored and settled by...wait...huh?

Rik....you miss the point....

Here' my two cents which I'm sure will get me yelled at:.....Canada, while a Republic, is still part of the British Commonwealth with Queen Elizabeth II being the head of state. It's alignment with France I believe has to do with the fact that Quebec is a french speaking province and that both English and French are official languages. Canada is also part of NATO, the G-8, The G-20 and other organizations incorporating numerous European countries.. Their military served valiantly throughout WW II and today has a presence in Europe....And as for Juno Beach, well, I'd guess it has the same meaning to Canadians as Omaha Beach has to Americans.....Kent, I don't know where you went to school, but I learned that our links to Europe go way beyond just Jamestown and the Plymouth Colony. I doubt there are very few people in the U.S., not considered people of color, who can't link their ancestry to Europe. I'm wondering if Canada is the same?

Not going to yell at you, Frank but just point out that Canada is not a republic but rather a Federation with ten provinces and two territories.

I think Canadians (my opinion remember!) embrace their cultural heritage way more than Americans. I am a third generation Canadian, but yet I strongly identify with my German heritage. This seems to be quite a common way too see yourself here. Not that I am not proud to be Canadian (except that we have Harper in charge), I am also proud of my roots. Winnipeg is a very multicultural city with fantastic restaurants and many festivals celebrating cultural diversity. Folklorama is a huge festival here and is great fun! But then again the last time I was in the states was in rural Montana where they served "freedom" fries. I have to admit that my view point might be a little one sided because of this.

Thank you, Mimi, for pointing that out. I should have known better since a true Republic does not have a monarch as its head of state.

Can't we all just get along and try to promote our own special ties to Europe? Create some where there were none before and solidify the already existing ties? Calling them "freedom fries" doesn't make them taste any better either.

Kate, I will have to disagree with you a bit. It seems a lot of Americans will be quick to point out "I'm German/Japanese/French/Moldovan/.. 10 other countries they're 'from' here.."

Let's be realistic...going to a small Montana community in Montana and assuming all of the U.S. is like that would be like me going to a small town in northern Quebec and assuming few people in Canada speak English.

Anna,..it's not so much that Canadians point out their ethnic, national, or cultural connections more than Americans do, it's more that Canada's ethnic communities live their cultural existence. I, too, was born and raised in Winnipeg, the most multicultural city on the continent. I remember as a youth and young man feeling that everywhere else I visited in North America was rather bland....all the same, as it were. While it's always exciting to visit new places, I never seemed to find a great sense of ethnic or cultural identity, with the exception of the ubiquitous Chinatowns in many cities. In Winnipeg, and indeed in most of western Canada, I would get invitations to celebrate a particular holiday from friends who were of Icelandic, Polish, Ukrainian, Swedish, German, Italian, Chinese, Filipino heritage...the list goes on. They'd dress in national costumes and serve "old country" food. For more than 30 years now, Winnipeg has celebrated its multicultural heritage with Folklorama, a yearly even involving about 50 different ethnic and national groups. They set up their own "pavilions" where you can be entertained and fed like you were in their country....a mini U.N., if you will. I must admit that you rarely saw this in central Canada (southern Ontario and Toronto) until they started receiving more immigrants in the past 30 years or so to leaven their very "British" character...for the good, I'd say. And I'm happy to report that I notice more of that proud display of ethnic background in the U.S. now than I did 4 or 5 decades ago.

Kent, interesting question and you've had some great responses so far! I'd have to ruminate on this for awhile before providing a reply, especially since it's been a LONG time since I sat in a high school history class! Norm and the others have provided fantastic replies and I doubt that I could top those.¶ However, I have a few preliminary thoughts. While Canada and the U.S. are "Children of a Common Mother" (to use the phrase on the Peace Arch between Blaine & White Rock) and share numerous cultural similarities, the two countries have evolved differently. Canada chose to maintain it's ties to the "mother country" which is reflected both in the Parliamentary style of government as well as societal attitudes. As someone else mentioned, "Peace, Order & Good Government" is our motto (we've done well on the first two points, but there will always be a difference of opinion on the third). Canada obtained some degree of "independence" when Trudeau repatriated the Constitution several years ago, but we still retain the Queen as the "head of state", with a Governor-General at the national level and Lieutenant-Governors in the Provinces. We also have somewhat of a unique tie with France, given the evolution which began in 1759 on the Plains of Abraham, which resulted in one Province retaining it's distinct cultural and language. Those factors, along with significant contributions to the "melting pot" from various European countries have perhaps left Canada with a stronger feeling of "connection" to Europe. I suspect this will change though, as more recent immigrants are from countries OTHER than Europe. ¶ Juno Beach was our contribution to the D-Day landings, and although not as large as others our troops did an exemplary job and in one sense it was some "payback" for what we suffered at Dieppe. I'll have to ponder this question some more...

"Winnipeg, the most multicultural city on the continent."[INVALID]-that's going to be a real shock to my hometown, New York City, where entire neighborhoods are taken over by ethnic/cultural/national groups and not just individual families. There is no mini-U.N., just the real thing. LOL

This is a very interesting topic! I grew up with an English grandmother in my house. She would always would point out the different perspective that she had on the American Revolution than the one we got. Realize that I was studying this in the 60's when K-12 education didn't have any kind of multicultural focus. ; ) More recently I read a fascinating book, A Dance Called America, that looked at the Scottish Diaspora. I had had no idea that the first round of Scots to come to North America had money and that they sided with England in the Revolutionary War. Most of the Scots in upstate NY moved north to Ontario where there is a large Scottish population to this day. This book too highlighted the fur trade and how Cape Breton was a landing place - literally - of many Scots. And that heritage is reflected today in the strong musical culture there. Alasdair Fraser, a Scottish fiddle player, contends that Cape Breton fiddlers kept the traditional fiddle music alive while fiddlers in Scotland got trapped in a watered down version. I love learning about these connections and wish I'd gotten more of them earlier in my life. Pam

I'm learning from the way the discussion has developed. I now realize my original question was not well thought out or expressed [and have edited the OP]. Thank you to the Repliers who have taken the original question and turned it into an interesting discussion. I have to admit that I'm still embarrassed by how little I know about Canada, when you get right down to it. I've made many trips there but probably know more about the UK and France than about Canada. I'm trying to change that and learn more about Canada, one reason I'm reading the book mentioned in the OP. And this discussion is helping - thank you for your thoughts and not dissing me for a poorly thought out original question!

I am "Born in Canada with (most)parts from Scotland". I am proud to be a Canadian and also enjoy having a British heritage. I have lots of my friends in the states but still do not understand some of their ideals. I enjoy Canada being a mosaic and not a melting pot. Love our country but be rightfully proud of where you or your ancestors came from. Like the UK we also enjoy having universal health care and fewer wild west shootouts. Visit Seattle and Vancouver's downtown areas at night and you will see two totally different cities.

FrankII...I use the individuals as an example....there are communities of all those groups, and more, in Winnipeg.

Just a note that Canada has 10 provinces and THREE territories.

By the way, aren't there a few islands off the Canadian coast over which France still exercises sovereignty?

Tom, you are correct. St Pierre and Miquelon, off the south coast of Newfoundland. Newfoundland and area was the site of many battle between the French and English over control of the rich fishing areas of the Grand Banks. The French govenment gained control of the islands for good in 1815.* BTW, when considering Canada, remember that the link between the French-speaking people here, and France, is very tenuous, certainly nowhere near as strong as the link between people with UK origins, and the UK. Francophones in Canada were essentially cut off from the "mother country" by the British conquest of 1759, and have developed their own distinct culture since then. You will find the vast majority in Canada would look askance at you if you talked about any connection with France. They are "Quebecois" or "Franco-Ontarien" or "Franco-Manitobain," not French.

JE ME SOUVIENS!

"Je me souviens" (from above post) - what is the meaning of this, I read something when in Quebec about "Remember who you are"?

[from Norm's post] "When considering Canada, remember that the link between the French-speaking people here, and France, is very tenuous, certainly nowhere near as strong as the link between people with UK origins, and the UK. Francophones in Canada were essentially cut off from the "mother country" by the British conquest of 1759, and have developed their own distinct culture since then. You will find the vast majority in Canada would look askance at you if you talked about any connection with France. They are "Quebecois" or "Franco-Ontarien" or "Franco-Manitobain," not French." * * * Norm, that is really interesting. I wasn't aware of this. Thank you.

"Quebecois" - can someone give the approximate phonetic pronounciation of this word?

Je me souviens. If I remember my highschool French at all, "to remember" is a reflexive verb, se souvenir, so the phrase Je me souviens simple means "I remember." Others can correct me if I am wrong.

Quebecois -=- Kent, I don't do phonetic very well, but here goes -=- Kay-beck-wa -=- I spent a few years in the wonderful city of Montreal.

Got it, Nigel! Thank you.

Matt: Thank you. Yes, the literal translation would seem to be I remember. I wonder if it has a figurative meaning that is different from the literal meaning?

Kent....yes, "Je me Souviens" is a call to Quebecois to remember their heritage, and not to forget where they came from.

Norm, thank you. The follow up question would be: Where is it that they consider they come from? I'm guessing the answer is complicated but wondering if there's a shorter explanation that can be given here for our purposes? I think we've been touching on it throughout this thread. I really find this interesting, and also the parallel thread (in To The West) on the Quebec-France linguistic relations.

"Where they come from" is Quebec, with a distinct society and culture, a francophone "island," as it were, in a sea of English-speaking people. Their history as a collectivity goes back to the days of Jacques Cartier in the early 16th century, and developed very differently from that of France, especially after the British conquest of 1759. They take great pride that they've managed to preserve their unique identity through all these generations, and they don't want anyone to forget that....otherwise, the fear is their culture, their way of life, will become submerged and disappear.

Kent, one other aspect of the "distinct culture" of Quebec, is that their version of French is considerably different than that spoken in France. I've heard it termed as "old French", and have been told by several people from Quebec that they've experienced a WORSE reception in France than English speakers (so they tend to use English when travelling). ¶ One point that I find a bit "irritating" is the Official Languages Act in Quebec, which regulates not only the size of lettering on signs in French and English but also which languages must be taught in schools. Shopkeepers can be FINED for not having the correct French lettering on their signs! I feel if Canada is officially "bi-lingual", then people in any Province or Territory should be free to use whichever of the official languages they prefer. I can only imagine the furor that would result if B.C. or Alberta passed laws to dictate that signs must be predominantly in English, and started fining shopkeepers for violations of that. The situation in Quebec seems to be a bit of a "double standard".

"some travelers from Quebec who have experienced a WORSE reception in France than English speakers" - that has come up on the parallel thread in To The West. THAT is an unexpected thing, very interesting.

We anglos who live in Quebec because we love it here and would not live anywhere else in Canada, have a way of explaining the law that says on all public signs the English words must be only 25% of the size of the French. This is because we anglos have much better eyesight. It is this dark humour that has allowed us to continue here and to prosper. Our children and grandchildren are all bilingual... no small thing in this age of globalization. Plus, along with British Columbia, we have the best Medicare in the country. I would just like to add that when these and other laws were passed in Quebec, many left the province but a lot of us stayed and soldiered on and for the most part we are glad we did and so are our children and grandchildren.

Canada is neither a republic nor a federation. Our form of government is a "constitutional monarchy". The Queen is our official head of state. The following explains our system of government fairly well.http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/waymac/Sociology/A%20Term%202/Political%20Spectrum/Government%20of%20Canada.htm

NORMA, "We anglos who live in Quebec because we love it here and would not live anywhere else in Canada". ¶ I feel the same way about living in British Columbia (and especially the Okanagan) - I don't want to live anywhere else!

I understand you entirely, Ken.

Norma, it's interesting to what you say about the various inter-relationships in Quebec. I remember well all the shootings, kidnappings and violence in the late '60s. I thought we had got past all that and was looking forward to the Olympics and happily living in Montreal when Bill One arrived. My grandparents had started in NDG and we then moved to Westmount. We had friends in Outremont, Pointe Claire, Lachine and Laval. -=- I'm afraid I was one of the others. Bill One came and we went. I've been back once, and I'm sorry that the city (well probably the province really) I loved so much didn't want me. Don't you find it sad that PQ is so insular? -=-=-=- Kent - sorry for the side comment.

Nigel: It's quite alright, we appreciate your thoughts on this.