Help us convince our parents their itinerary is too busy!

Ouch (wincing). Really. Ouch. No one here is being condenscending towards the four travelers. First of all, they must assume they will return to Europe; otherwise, they need to make some really tough choices. They have some tough choices to make as it is...as we all do :-( I believe it's extremely difficult for a first-time European traveler to grasp just how much time is chewed up in changing locales - packing up, checking out, waiting for the taxi/bus, walking through a train station, buying tickets (oftentimes after standing in horrendously long lines), getting to the right train track, travel time (perhaps with one or more changes of trains = more time), then doing it all in reverse in a strange city...and there's usually some running involved at one time or another ;-P At first I was taken back by Maggie's saying that there's not much to Sorrento; after thinking about it, yeah, maybe - I liked the town, but I'm not going to necessarily travel for HOURS - and it's a bit of a hassle (NAPLES!) - to get there IF I'm not spending several days to see Pompeii, Herculaneum, Amalfi coast, etc...By Sorrento, I think the four of them will want to end their misery by jumping into the sea :-( Sadly, I'd skip Sorrento. (cont.)

(cont.) What interests your mother about Italy? Sipping wine on the Mediterranean? Seeing all of the best art in the world-leading museums? Shopping? The food? And your father - Normandy, I understand, but is 'Paris' itself important? Any other regions of France? And why? Food? Wine? Just because he's always thought one is 'supposed to go there'? And where does Munich fit into all of this? Both Paris-Munich and Munich-Venice are 7+hour train rides, and nearly all have at least one train change. I'm not making modifications on the premise that they're 'old geezers' and they can't do this; I physically ache reading through their itinerary, and I'm a young geezer ;-) I've been there, done that. I like to GoGoGo. And this itinerary hurts. Have they already purchased airline tickets? When is this trip planned? What input has the other couple made? Can they possibly add more time?!? Are they resistant to your suggestions, or are they taking your opinions seriously and earnestly? I'm assuming they're taking only one carry-on-sized bag? ;-) (cont.)

(cont.) I lean (heh-heh, get it? 'Eileen'...sorry.) towards something like Andrea's plan, but without knowing why they want to go to the places they've chosen it's futile to make suggestions. I really want them to have a fantastic trip 8^D

OK, something's gotta give here. Flying in to Brussels is foolish if they have no interest in or plans to see/do anything in Belgium. Fly to Paris. Costs more? Probably. That extra cost will effectively "buy" them an extra day, which they're going to need. You said your father in law was mostly interested in France (Normandy is part of France). No mention of Germany. I'd drop Munich from this trip, it doesn't fit. Spend those extra days in France. You don't see Normandy on a day trip from Paris. You might get a quickie tour of a few highlights, on a very long day. There's a lot more to Normandy than the American cemetary at Omaha Beach, spend at least 2 days there. Show them a picture of Mont St. Michel. And of Chombord or Chenanceau. How about a day in the Loire Valley seeing a couple amazing chateaux? Then skip the train, fly to Venice. Then train to Florence, maybe Sienna (check Tuscany off your list), maybe Sorrento (I loved it, and adding the stuff nearby makes it worth going out of the way). Then back to Rome. Good luck, hope that helps.

Not to put too sharp a point on it, but I would mind my own business and let them find out for themselves what their schedule is going to do for their mental and physical health.

Wow! First, if they are starting in Paris, why are they flying to Brussels? They have 4 nights in Paris, with a day trip to Normandy. I haven't been to Normandy yet, but the general consensus here is that it is difficult to do as a day trip. Maybe they are taking an organized tour from Paris? I hope so. One thing I like to keep in mind is that 2 nights in a location equals one full day. They will be spending more time traveling than they will sightseeing. In some locations. You say their focus is Italy and France. I would do something like this: Paris - 4 nights with organized day trip to Normandy. Fly to Venice Venice - 3 nights Train to Florence Florence or Tuscany - 3 nights Train to Sorrento Sorrento - 2 nights Train to Rome
Rome - 3 nights Take away a night in Venice if they want 3 nights in Sorrento. Or save Sorrento for another trip and add the Sorrento days to Tuscany and/or Rome. Either way, I would skip Munich altogether. It is out of the way and more effort and expense to get there than it's worth for only a day there. Good luck convincing them to change their itinerary.

I assume this is actually doable? To me it is so rushed as to be ridiculous but to each their own. By my calculations they have 2 weeks, taking out the day each end for arriving and departing. There are 3 countries in that 2 weeks -Italy, France and Germany. Three of the biggest European countries. And they are going to 7 different places or areas across those 3 countries. Specific questions - could they fly direct to Paris?
How are days 9 and 10 going to work - Tuscany is a huge area of Italy. Given their stated areas of interest, could Munich be eliminated? Spending such a short time in places and spending lots of time on trains to get between them is not my idea of a good holiday. Nor yours, obviously. In the interests of full disclosure I should point out that I am the age of your parents and I have never and would never contemplate such a trip - at any age. However, people need to learn for themselves what suits them. Maybe have another go at talking to them - and then leave it up to them. They may choose not to repeat the experience.

I agree with you, it looks way too hectic. I'm in the same age group as your parents. Have they taken into consideration the time taken to get to and from airports and checking in to hotels? That really adds hours onto a journey. They're not going to see much of Tuscany in a day - they won't even have much time to see Florence.
I went to Sorrento many years ago, so my input is dated- but I don't recall there being anything really spectacular there; I'd suggest spending that time divided between Florence and Rome. Good luck! I hope they really enjoy whatever they decide to do.

Katie, I agree with previous posters. I am also in their age group and I don't think I would try this hectic an itinerary. I have taken two-week tours that covered that much territory, but there you are bussed from place to place (dropped at your hotel, picked up at your hotel - no trains, no getting to and from train stations). But never would I attempt that independently. Assume they are flying into Brussels and out of Rome because that was a better price? Otherwise it doesn't make sense to fly to Brussels just to take a train to Paris. Why not fly into Paris? For me it would have to be at least $200 cheaper to justify the extra time and effort and train cost to get to Paris. If they already have plane tickets and want to see Normandy, why not fly to Brussels and then train to Caen, spend the night and then take an organized tour of Normandy from there, then spend a second night there and take the early train to Paris the next day. I would definitely skip Munich this trip and maybe Sorrento/Amalfi also. After 4 days in Paris, fly to Venice for 2 days, train to Florence for at least 3 days to see more of Tuscany, and then train to Rome for 4 days before flying home. Whatever they decide to do, I hope they have a wonderful trip and I hope they go back for more in the future.

Katie, First of all, I hope your in-laws will actually read the suggestions offered by the group here? As this is their first trip, I would highly recommend that all of them read Europe Through The Back Door prior to the trip, and use the country-specific Guidebooks to plan sightseeing. WHEN is this trip taking place? Especially for a first trip to Europe, I definitely agree with the others - this is FAR too "busy"! While it may be feasible, they're going to spend most of their time in train stations, checking in & out of Hotels and travelling. They won't really be able to "enjoy" the places they're visiting. I agree with a previous comment about flight arrangements. If they're starting in Paris, it seems silly to fly into Brussels. If the flights were cheaper, they'll need to factor in the time and costs to get from Brussels to Paris. As Andrea mentioned, Normandy is not an ideal day trip from Paris due to the distance and travel times. While it is possible to take Pariscityvision (or other) Bus tours, that's a long day which provides only limited coverage of the sights (and they're expensive). My suggestions would be: > Book a flight into Paris > Skip the Sorrento / Amalfi portion and use the time to allow for travel times and provide some "breathing room" in the other locations. There simply isn't enough time to see much in the time frame available. Plan to visit that area on a future visit and spend more time. > You list Day 10 as "Tuscany" - where exactly does that refer to? > Although I'm sure this suggestion will raise the ire of some of the group here, it may also be prudent to skip either Venice or Florence. It would take some work, but I could suggest an Itinerary if you're interested. Good luck convincing them!

Sometimes we just have to learn from our mistakes... and if its not life threatening...let them go for it. Unless, of course they are asking for you to set up their initerary. Yes, its lots of locations but they may feel they won't return.

At some point, you will probably just need to wash your hands of it and let them figure it out for themselves. I mean, if they won't take advice from a most beloved son and daughter in law, why would they listen to a bunch of strangers from Rick's Helpline? They're adults, right? We all try to help folks have a better trip through sharing experiences here, but there's only so much you can do. If their trip turns out to be too hectic and impossible because they didn't accept your learned experience and opinions, oh well. They'll then understand the value of learning from others who have a lot of experience and are willing to share (or they'll just think Europe sucks and never go back). Great suggestions already given...hope it's useful.

Thank you for everyone's advice. Just so you know, I wasn't being pushy, it was requested by the parents in question that I post on here so they get additional opinions on the trip.......They have asked for my help on their itinerary as well....so they are open to critiques! :)

Well, since they have asked.... it is a really crazy itinerary and they will probably be overwhelmed and mentally and physically exhausted... Since they seem to have two major areas... France and Italy I would forget Germany for this trip. I am never one to assume I will return (although I have been fortunate enough to) so I want to see everything that I will regret not seeing (within reason) But since they are already in their 50s/60s and not been to Europe before, it is feasible they will not return. Reality is that people on this site return, but I have lots of friends who have only been once and do not have the financial means to return. Just because RS says to assume you will return does not make it so. If they give their reasons for wanting to visit certain areas a more enjoyable agenda could be set up for them. They might be more open to suggestions once they realize a lot of people on this site are closer to their age. Are they opposed to narrowing their focus and perhaps having a car for Tuscany & Normandy. Much more flexibility.

Katie, Have you given your in-laws the advice given here by experienced European travelers, many of whom are in their age range? I'm just curious what their reaction was and if they took it seriously. Please report back.

Hi, Since the primary focus of the trip is directed at France and Italy, I would have to say, as pointed out above, that Munich be dropped, since logistically it's out of the way with the time frame you have. If you had another 5 more days, then I would say that regardless of the Franco-Italian focus, go to Munich or even Vienna too. Is there a particular place in Munich, a definite historical site there that both want to see? If yes, then take the Paris-Munich CNL night train, arriving prior to 0730. If no, I would do Paris-Venice by night.

I'm going to put a slightly different take on this schedule. I consider train days, rest days. You get to relax, picnic and watch the scenery go by. With that viewpoint, your parents have put a lot of rest days into their schedule. I love trains. In addition, while resting they get to move to a different location. In addition, the days they are in a spot, they do not have to run like mad. Their speed is up to them. This is their first trip, it will help them to decide to where they would like to return. I'm in their age group, and while I'm not as fast as I was at 27 (and I have no problem with that ridiculous speed) I and many of my contemporaries are not weak and exhausted. I think if they are not type A personalities at this point, this is a fine schedule. I will admit, I am not sure what the reasoning is behind flying into Brussels and a train to Paris. This does seem a bit superfluous, but, again, it will provide some adjustment time while seeing the scenery. It's not a horrible mistake.

One thing I haven't seen asked, do any of them speak one of the languages for the countries they are visiting? Visiting essentially 3 countries means 3 different languages, 3 different train systems and not much margin for error. I don't see the Brussels arrival being that big a deal, assuming they have already bought their tickets. The airport is nice and very international. But, I would definitely re-visit the Munich part. My vote would be for Paris, Normandy, Venice, Florence and Rome. Since this is their first trip, these places I are so fabulous I don't see a need to add others. After all, part of the fun is being able to sit and enjoy a glass of wine or espresso and take in these beautiful cities. And yes, we're in this demographic, too. I hope they have a wonderful trip.

I agree with those who suggest you let them live and learn. The advice I would give them would be to NOT make any reservations more than a few days in advance. That will allow to modify the itinerary on the fly with minimal hassle.

Nothing constructive to add that hasn't been said already, just a little jealousy, maybe. When my in-laws took their only trip to Europe, they asked for my advice on some things, took none of it, and were happy as clams. They thoroughly enjoyed it and my FIL feels no need to return (though I suspect my MIL might like to). Of course, it wasn't as hectic as this itinerary, but still. You are lucky to have in-laws who recognize you have something valuable to say and might actually listen.

I do not think age has much to do with it,, your parents are still young enough that age shouldn't slow them down much,, BUT that is a ridiculus itinerary,, I wonder, do they really understand how much of their holiday will be spent packing up each morning, going to train station, getting on train, then arriving, finding way to next hotel.. eat dinner, sleep, one day touring, they repeat .. And whats the deal with flying into Brussels,, I don't think any of us understand why .