Girl Scout trip to Europe. need help with trains

felicia, Rail schedules for June likely won't be posted yet, but it should be possible to get estimates by looking at trips which take place on the same day of the week. Here are a few suggestions, obtained from the bahn.de website: > Frutigen to Florence - (Tuesday) Depart 08:25, Arrive 14:05 (time 5H:40M, reservations compulsory on two legs, 2 changes in Brig and Milano) > Florence to Venice - (Thursday) Depart 09:25, arrive 11:33 (time 2H:08M, reservations compulsory, direct). Note that your departure station will be Firenze SMN and your arrival station will be Venezia Santa Lucia. > Venice to Salzburg - (Saturday) Depart 09:20, Arrive 15:48 (time 6H:28M, 1 change in Villach, Bus / Train combo, reservations compulsory on the rail leg). Note that the Bus departs from Venice Tronchetto, which I've never used. Hopefully the others can provide further information. There are also train-only trips on that route, but the departure times are less "favourable". I normally buy tickets for the outgoing journey either when I arrive in a location or at least a few days before I'll be travelling. Especially in Italy, it may be possible to qualify for "Mini" or discounted fares. You may find it helpful to have a look at This Website for good information on the Italian trains. Hope this helps?

Just to expand on the previous comment: You may have difficulty getting accurate train times or booking tickets for that week as the rail timetables in mainland Europe generally have one of their two annual major alterations somewhere around the 15th of June. As a result the usual 90 day window for booking train tickets may be shortened with tickets not being made available until some days or even weeks later. (Nobody is able to book any faster than anyone else, though.)

You might want to check to see if group rates are available for your group and what you would need to do in advance to qualify.

I only know the last leg, Salzburg to Munich. You can use the Bavaria pass or Schoenes Wochende pass (5 people under 30 euro) depending on what day you're traveling. Salzburg is considered the last stop in Bavaria for Deutsch Bahn. You won't need reservations, pick up enough passes for everyone at the station. Save a couple euro by buying them from a machine rather than the ticket line. You have to take local (called regional) rather than the faster trains options but it's not that far. Each pass is for up to five people, I'm not sure if there are any restrictions that would affect your group, the price and rules change slightly from year to year.

The Bavarian Pass, or Bayern-Ticket, is valid seven days a week for €29 for up to 5 people for unlimited rides on regional trains in Bavaria. You can ride, hop on/of, all day on weekend days, after 9 AM workdays. The Schönes-Wochenende-Ticket costs €40 for up to five on weekend days for regional trains all over Germany. As long as you are only traveling in Bavaria, the Bayern-Ticket is the obvious choice. Salzburg is just over the border and travel into Salzburg Hbf from Freilassing by train is included. Also note: Although the Venice-Villach bus starts in Troncetto, but it's next stop, 20 min later, is in Mestre, which is on the mainland, on the other side of the causeway to Santa Lucia station on the island. Since reservations are required on the bus, you don't have to go to Trochetta to assure a seat.

I'm really looking for specific information like what Ken sent. I have read that my trip falls in the twice a year train schedule change so that is a bit of a bummer but I also understand that the schedule changes may not be very much. It would be very helpful in my planning to have a few specific train choices for each leg of my trip with the info similar to what ken answered on the first response in this thread. I am hoping to hear from Nigel, Lola, Russ, Lee, etc. because I learned of their travel knowledge and received much help from them in my previous posts for this trip planning. I think I should also learn to read the train schedules in case I need to make last minute changes during my trip. So, I would also like to talk to someone on the phone, who has the time and interest and also has the patience to help a techo tard girl scout leader, with my computer and train schedule in front of me. Maybe if I go step by step to ask questions to learn how to work the train schedule I can conquer it. as always, thanks for the help.

"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime." One of the best website, maybe the best, for finding train schedules is the German Rail (Bahn) website. A few years ago, I wrote a primer on using the Bahn website. They've made a few changes since then, but it is still essentially the same. The Bahn website covers schedules for trains all over Europe, but has fares only for trains routes with one end in Germany. For fares outside Germany, go to the website for the national rail company in that country: Italy - www.trenitalia.com Austria - www.oebb.at
Switzerland - www.sbb.ch

Tronchetto is very easy to get to by vaporetto. It is the next stop out from P.Roma, and is where the massive carpark is. It is a stop on the route from Zattare. I don't see any good reason to take the train to Mestre just to change to a coach there.

I'm trying to learn to read train schedules. In the mean time, I appreciate all the help. Nigel, can you explain your information you posted a little more for me. thanks

For Venezia-Salzburg, I'd suggest a route via Insbruck and the Brener pass which takes 1h30 longer than the one with the hideous, low-quality and dangerous (seat-belts often not working) buses from Venezia to Villach. Firenze-Venezia is straightforward: get a high-speed Frecciarossa train. Book in advance to ensure you are all assigned seats in the same carriage.

Regarding the schedule changes on the national rail websites... Usually, the frequency of the trains or the travel times change very little from one period to the next. The only thing that tends to shift around much are the departure times. So if there is an hourly train between Large City A and Large City B that lasts for two hours listed this month, there will likely be an hourly train between Large City A and Large City B that lasts two hours this summer.

What are mini fares and how do I find them?

Hi, As you and other above posters have pointed out, the rail schedules change for the summer around the middle of June. Last summer for Deutsche Bahn the summer schedule was in effect from 26 June-18 Sept 2011. Of course, the change may start earlier in June this year.

Andre Yours is the first negative review I have heard on the OeBB coach from Venice. Do you have personal experience?

felicia, Information on the "Mini" fares was in the website link I provided in my first reply. Here's a more precise link to the appropriate section of the website. Cheers!

I would love to hear Andre's experience on the bus from Venice enroute to salzburg or also anyone else's experience with this route. Of course I would take the longer route for safety, etc. if necessary but would pick the quicker route especially if it is also cheaper if there is no problem with it.

Hi felicia-sorry I haven't answered sooner. I'm no familiar with the Venice to Salzburg train/bus option other than what I read here. It does appear from the OEBB (Austrian rail) website that the bus option is significantly less expensive (29 to 49 euros versus 83 for the train) but maybe someone knows how to get discounts on the train option. You will need to learn to use the various national train websites (Swiss, rail.ch; italy, Trenitalia, and Austria, Oebb.at) to buy tickets in advance and get the discount prices. Each is a little differenct but they are all in English and you can start practicing now, using dates in the next month or so, just to learn how to navigate the pages and find the discounts. Also, with a group of 9, you are not big enough for group discounts (minimum of 10) but too large to book all at once (maximum of 5 for Swiss rail and Trenitalia). So you will have to book 5 and then 4. You will then get two separate blocks of seats but if you do them consecutively you should get seats in the same car. If not, it is no big deal; just have one adult ride in each group (the seats are not assigned individually and you can divide yourselves up however you like). to see the mini fares on Trenitalia, enter a date (try one month out so they are likely to still be available), a time (like 10 am) and then it will show you various options, and the regular price. Pick one and go to the next page, where the mini fare will appear (if it is available).

ok, I am looking at DB bahn travel service. I am able to find some train choices, see details that show how many changes, I now have (thanks to lee) a cheat sheet that explains what the train abbreviations mean. In looking at the train from frutigen to brig to milan to firenze, can't find where to click to select or find the fair or the mini fares?
thanks for the help. Also, does anyone know about a guy named man in seat 61. Is his train info accurate or helpful??

Felicia, I've ridden Buses on a number of occasions in Italy and other parts of Europe, and have never encountered the situations that Andre referred to. The Buses were always modern, comfortable and well equipped. Hopefully Andre will be able to provide more details on the circumstances he described. If you'd prefer to travel only by train from Venice to Salzburg, that's certainly an option. For example, there's a Saturday departure from Venezia Santa Lucia at 06:58, arriving Salzburg Hbf at 15:07 (time 8H:09M, two changes at Verona Porta Nuova and Innsbruck Hbf, reservations compulsory on all legs). That particular rail trip is 1H:41M longer than the following departure (which uses the Bus), and the time of departure is considerably earlier (I wouldn't want to be up at that time of the morning to catch a train). I also have a few "general comments" on Buses in Europe. In my experience, these are considerably more regulated than in North America. All of the Buses I've ever used have been equipped with electronic metering, which regulates how long the Driver can travel without taking a rest break. The data is either downloaded in "real time" or at the end of a set period of time, according to the applicable regulations in each country. These time limits are STRICTLY enforced, and severe penalties can result for Drivers that don't follow the rules. I've spent some time chatting with Drivers, and that's what they've told me. Cheers!

The Man in Seat 61 has most excellent information, highly accurate, and timely; all based on personal experience. The website originally was a hobby. He and I have chatted, although not recently. The website is chock full of photos and videos. The name comes from his favourite seat on Eurostar - the one under the Channel Tunnel, not the Italian train. I have the greatest of respect for the man. He tells it as it is. For routes and trains, by far, the most comprehensive and straightforward is the German Bahn site. They will give you loads of price info, too. But they only provide tickets and prices on trains which operate in Germany, or start or end their journey in Germany. For all other trains you need to go to the website of the national railway of the particular country as I think was noted above.

To expand on what Ken said, there is a 13:34 EC from Santa Lucia going to Rosenheim, Germany without a change in Verona. At Rosenheim you change to an IC to Salzburg. You can do this entire trip in 7h46m with a Europa-Spezial ticket as low as €39. You can also change in Innsbruck and take a RailJet to Salzburg. That route takes 22 min less. The discounted Sparschiene fare from Austrian Rail starts at the same €39. You might try both website and see if one fare is lower than the other website (for example the lowest fares using the RailJet might sell out before the other connection's lowest fares.

Nigel, I have wondered the same thing. He recently ripped on the bus service from Nurnberg to Prague and it was obvious he had never been on the bus. The buses operated by DBahn are very good and I would not hesitate to ride them.

Frank should know. He took the Nuernberg-Prague bus last year. You can read what Austrian Rail has to say about their IC buses here. They are double deck, air conditioned, with toilet, leather seats, power outlets, and complimentary beverages. I found this review of the bus on Tripadvisor: "We did the Vienna to Villach bus trip yesterday and it was sensational. We arrived in time to catch the train to Vienna, and that was also a wonderful experience - despite the rain :-) The details: I booked the Venice to Villach coach on Trenitalia. NB: 2nd class is upstairs with good views; has lots of room for long legs; and is roughly from seat 50+. 1st class is downstairs with lounge style chairs, but not nearly such a good view." Note: He doesn't mention the negatives claimed by Andre.

Thanks for all the insight on the possible bus situation. It seems there is no real information to support the bad bus comment. I will continue to read and evaluate but so far it seems the trip from Venice to salzburg that includes a bus ride to a bus station and then a bus to catch the fast train is the quickest and least expensive route and has better departure times. Also, I see some value in giving the girls a variety of transportation experiences. If anyone has any other thoughts or ideas, I'm thankful to hear them.

I need to make some decisions on what train tickets I am buying ahead of time and what tickets to wait and buy later. I still don't have alot of confidence that I can locate the best fares. FOR June 12 from frutigen-milan to florence, I think the one that leaves around 8:25 and goes thru brig is good. Someone mentioned it is cheaper to buy it as 2 separate tickets June 14 mid morning from florence to Venice June 18 Venice to Salzburg I think the train that requires the bus seems cheapest and fastest June 20 from salzburg to munich, there is one that leaves about 7:51 but is it correct to travel after 9:00 to be much cheaper and is that a certain train or just a certain time. I can't tell for sure because I'm not real confident on the train fares but can someone tell me if it is best and cheapest to buy individual tickets instead of a rail pass?
Thanks

Here's my 2 cents on the bus/train option from Venice to Salzburg. We've taken the train and driven between Munich and Venice numerous times. We've also driven to/from Slovenia (through Villach) by Salzburg (then to Munich) just last fall. I have not been from Venice to Villach the way googlemaps says to go through Udine, although have been as far as San Giorgio di Nogaro on theA4. Taking the bus from Venice to Villach goes through some wind-y mountain roads, so if anyone gets car sick, it won't be a good time. Villach to Salzburg the autobahn is good. With the bus, traffic, weather, a tractor, you name it, can impede your driving time. If I had to choose to take a longer route through Innsbruck to Salzburg on train or a time-wise shorter route on a bus through the Dolomites, I'd take the train hands down. On the train you can get up and walk around, potty whenever you like, etc. On the bus you're stuck there in your seat (the restroom doesn't always work on some of the buses we've takentry telling a bus full of 2nd graders they have to hold it for another hour, not fun!). My advice, take the train from Venice to Salzburg.

kathy, thanks for your great insight

Well, the trip is soon. With the help if from many of you, I have purchased P to P tickets for most of the trains I need. We are waiting to buy 2 regional trains when we get there. Several of you mentioned a change in the train schedule that happens mid June. That will be after we leave the US and during our trip. How do I know if the train tickets I purchased will still have the times I expect or will the departure times be different? We don't want to miss our trains.
thanks

it is unlikely they will change significantly. Keep an eye on the platform posted (Binaro, abbreviated Bin) as that may vary a bit; maybe minor changes in times, as long as you are there early. and with your horde I am sure you will be, you'll be fine. When you arrive at a destination have a glance at the yellow posted departures poster and see if anything has changed for your departure day.

Thanks Nigel.

Felicia, I know you will be leaving soon and I wanted to wish you the best. I know you have spent a lot of time planning and it will be a trip the girls will always
remember. I will be thinking of you.

Need some rush advice if possible on trains. I'm hoping NIGEL or someone else familiar with London is available to help. Our group leaves tomorrow for Zurich. However, 2 people left today to fly standby (they are airline employees) and they are currently stuck in chicago. They now hope to get on an american airline flight from boston that arrives at Heathrow on sat nite at 8:40pm. That puts them about a day behind the group. They want a train that leaves heathrow sometime after their plane arrives that can take them to Frutigen, Switzerland which is the closest train station to adleboden where the girl scout chalet is located.
At this late stage in our planning, it would be great if someone could help with the train details, cost, times, train changes, etc. I'm sorry to ask to be so spoon fed. I'm trying to get my girls packed and all the other last minute details.

Actually, their flight arrives friday nite at 8:40 so they just need a train from Heathrow to Zurich airport and need to be in Zurich airport by 11:00am on sat. 9 June.

felicia, Given the fact that they arrive at LHR at 20:40 on Friday night and have to be at ZRH by 11:00 the following morning, I would NOT suggest travelling by train. In that situation, my best suggestion is to get on the internet NOW and book an EasyJet flight from either LGW or LUT to ZRH. There's a departure from LGW at 07:10 on Saturday morning, arriving at ZRH at 09:55 (provided they can get a ticket). It probably won't be the cheapest option, but under the circumstances I don't see any other alternatives. Also, it will probably mean doing an "all nighter" at the airport (if that's possible?), in order to be there in time for check-in for their flight. Nigel or one of the others will have to advise on the quickest and easiest way to get from LHR to LGW. There may be flights available with other budget airlines, but I didn't check. I'm sure this thought has already crossed their minds, but perhaps it wasn't the best idea to fly "standby" when travelling with a group, with time being a factor. Good luck!

ken, thanks for the help. I'll send them the info. they will be arriving in boston shortly and then hopefully make the flight to Heathrow in the morning. I didn't advice standby either. They left a day before us, trying to save $.

Paula, Thanks for your thoughts and encouragement. I'm packed, ready to go. Hoping to get some sleep.

felicia, "They left a day before us, trying to save $." Unfortunately, they'll probably end up paying more than if they had gone with the rest of the group. Tell them "Good Luck"!

felicia, we discussed this when you started planning, didn't we? I thought that they were always intending to be a couple of days behind the rest of the group? I agree with Ken - the best would be to see if they can pull any other favours out of their airline colleagues. Maybe hop a standby alliance flight to Zurich once they land? I'm pretty sure BA goes there. No good chiding felicia on this - we all knew months ago. One of the thrills of flying on the jump seat (yes I know - they did when i did it). Since they don't know if they will get on the flight from Logan its no good buying Easyjet seats they may not get to use. Once they touch down, if nobody at LHR can help then they can still use the interweb terminals to do EasyJet - it won't get any pricier now I wouldn't think.

They need to fly to Zurich; no train will get them there in time. In addition to the EasyJet flight from Gatwick that Ken mentioned, there is a 7:10 am flight from Heathrow on British Airways. It costs more, but would be a whole lot easier. Maybe their airline status will get them a discount. But this is their proble, not yours Felicia. They can figure it out, and they will. I hope you and the girls have a wonderful time on this trip you have worked so hard to plan for them.

Hi, Felicia. We meet again! If your people manage to get to LHR tonight on the flight that arrives at 20:40, they can get from there to LGW on a direct National Express bus. Buses depart from the central bus station which is between terminal 1 and terminal 3 at 21:50, 22:20, and 23:40. If they stay at an airport hotel, they'll be able to get some sleep before their early morning easyJet flight to Zurich.

THANKS EVERYONE. the 2 stranded did take a british airways flight and arrived in Zurich about an hour after us and we had a wonderful driver who took us aroud to see zurich and back to the airport to get the other two. Our trip is wonderful. The girl scout chalet in adleboden switzerland was great. we spent 3 nites, hiked, campfire and made new friends from several countries. We arrived today in florence and the B&B lola recommended is perfect and the owner is delightful and could not be more helpful. We saw David this afternoon. The whole museum was great. We do not have any opportunities even close to that in Oklahoma. Riccardo, from the BB, recommended the perfect, nearby, local place for dinner. Tomorrow, climb duomo, baptistry doors, shopping, churches, Uffizi, and the girls are bery excited about our cooking class for dinner. Th weather has been forecasted raining the whole time but in fact has been beautiful everyday and only raining at nite which is wonderful for sleeping. The girls are great!! The moms are doing....ok. Could not have done it without all of you. Danke, Merci, Gratzi

"The girls are great!! The moms are doing....ok. " LOL! I hear ya! WHEW!!! Sounds like it all came together! Have a wonderful time! Keep us posted, if you have the time...

It is great to hear from you, Felicia! And we are all happy to hear that the girls (and you) are having a great time. What a great experience for them. P.S. if any of them are hungry for "American" foods like peanut butter, granola, etc., you can find them at the little store across the stree from the B&B. Our daughters are avid runners, and needed more protein with their breakfast than the typical Italian coffee and brioche. So they stocked up at the store on peanut butter.

ÜPDATE. Everything has been wonderful. We loved florence. We could have stayed longer. The cooking class we did there was great. HOMEMADE PASTA WAS FUN AND THE meatballs were unbelievably good. We shopped at the leather market. tzhese girls seem to love shopping. Venice was perfect. Don Orione was a great place for us to stay, nice, clean, quiet and perfect location. I am sure we ate gelato at least twice a day. I know everyone recommmended it but I actually did not expect to want gelato multiple times a day. We will miss gelato and florence and Venice. It was best that we actually stayed in those cities because our days were long. HAD A beautiful twilight gondola ride. the girls had a crush on their handsome and well built gondiar. We had some complications on our train from Verona to salzburg, part way thru the train irde, the track was closed for repair so we unloaded and took a bus for part of the trip and back on the train. then we met some new friends on the train and we were not prepared to get off at our stop in rosenheim so we missed our stop, rode into munich, got off, back on another train back to riosenheim and on to salzburg. Not perfect, but really no grumbling and more to talk and laugh about. We are now in salzburg staying at Weiss Taube. It is a wonderful, quaint place to stay and great location. Went to Mass today at the salzburg cathedral. It was beautiful and worshipful. Had a fun sound of music tour and wondered around some fun streets coming back from mirabell platz. I am very tired and taking lots of pictures

Thanks for the update. Admirable that you went on this trip with the Girl Scouts. Happy to hear that all of you have rolled with the punches and enjoyed both Florence and Venice.
Continued safe travel.

Sounds like you and the girls are having a ball!! Get a pastry at Demel in Salzburg. Guess it was worth it to sell all those thin mints?

felicia, It's great to hear that you're all having such a wonderful time. Minor issues are common on trips, but it sounds like you're dealing with them well. Enjoy!

For those who have helped with or followed my trip planning and are interested, I am continuing my trip report under the trip report section. thanks. to see photos from my trip, send me a private message and I'll share my photo site.