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French President possibly in favor of a smaller Schengen Zone

Don't want to get sidetracked with a political discussion about this, but President Macron suggests a smaller Schengen Zone might be better for migration related issues. For some of us on this board who would really like to stay in Europe for more than 90 days without a visa and would like more variety than the current non-Schengen zone countries, this would be interesting. https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/other/macron-suggests-shrinking-schengen-zone-because-eu-migration-policies-e2-80-99do-not-work-e2-80-99/ar-BBWjo6x

Posted by
8889 posts

I would not get your hopes up.
Schengen is a lot more than a 90-day limit for foreigners. The reason for Schengen was that, given that EU citizens can travel and stay in other EU countries without restriction, it was a humongous waste of resources to check everybody crossing borders just in case someone was a non-EU citizen who needed stamping in and out.
A waste of thousands of border officials
A waste of a lot of taxpayers money.
And a total inconvenience to people crossing the border who had to wait and waste time.

Opening the borders has been an economic boost to border areas. Roads have been built without border posts. New rail and bus routes cross the border that would not have been possible if people needed checking. Cross-border commuting has boomed. Airport terminals have been built or re-furbished without any space for immigration checks.
The German "Grenzpolizei" (Border police) and the French "police de l'air et des frontières" (just 2 examples) have been shrunk and merged with other agencies as they now only need to check airports, and only some flights.

Rolling back all this would make Brexit look easy.

In opening the borders, it required a common system for handling external borders, hence "90 days in any 180".

From what I can read, Macron didn't specify who has to be removed from Schengen, though the journalists suggest Balkan countries.

And even if Schengen shrinks, that doesn't mean the common visa system is dismantled. Foreigners may still have a 90-day limit for all the countries currently in Schengen.

(Yes this is political, it is also traveller relevant)

Posted by
15049 posts

I used to see the Grenzschutz in the Luneburg train station and on trains going to Czechia. Of course, that was during passport check days taking place on trains, talked to them too.

Posted by
12315 posts

One thing about Macron, he's never shy about bring up ideas. Usually, people react badly so he retreats quickly.

Posted by
5468 posts

Would the USA offer visitors 90 days stay per state? Or maybe 6 months for British passport holders?

Posted by
604 posts

Chris, interesting thought about whether some countries no longer in the Schengen zone would potentially still be part of the 90 day visa system. Right now does that apply to any that aren't in Schengen? Similarly, do you know how Switzerland handled its traveler long stay limits before it joined Schengen in 2005? Was reading about the Swiss referendum on it in 2005 but couldn't find any info about whether Switzerland was like Croatia and the UK is now in terms of its own separate limit pre 2005.

Posted by
1298 posts

The EU parliamentary elections will be over in a couple of weeks or so; I doubt we'll hear much more of Macron's big idea once they are out of the way. In any case, Germany was at best "lukewarm", so the idea's dead in the water.

Posted by
226 posts

Probably some concern over pending admissions for Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria, which would connect Schengen area to Turkey. Also, sounds like some tension with Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Poland. Throw in Austria, Slovenia, Serbia, Croatia, and Romania and you could have a nice, separate "Hapsburg" Zone.

90 days at a time in France, Germany, Benelux, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Scandinavia, etc. and another 90 days in the Hapsburg Zone.....we wouldn't have any time for Great Britain and Ireland!

Posted by
2481 posts

There is no legal possibility at all to exclude an EU country out of the Schengen area. At best, the EU could rely on Chapter II of the Schengen Agreement, i.e. the introduction of border controls vis-à-vis a "unreliable" member state, which whould result in its temporary de facto exclusion. Which country Macron has in mind, remains his secret. Anyway, Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania are (still) not in Schengen.

Posted by
4072 posts

There is no legal possibility at all to exclude an EU country out of
the Schengen area.

There are already several EU countries that are not part of Schengen including the UK, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, & Ireland.

Posted by
2481 posts

There are already several EU countries that are not part of Schengen including the UK, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, & Ireland.

Correct. But none of them has been excluded from the Schengen agreement. The UK and Ireland didn't join ever, the others are candidates.

Posted by
5513 posts

I think the idea here is that Europe would like fewer foreigners, not more.

Posted by
8889 posts

I think what sla019 meant is that there is no way to expel an existing Schengen Area member against their will. It is possible to keep a non-member out until they satisfy the conditions, which is the situation with Bulgaria and Romania.

Cyprus is not a member because it has a porous border with unrecognised North Cyprus.
Ireland is not a member because it has a passport union with the UK. Joining without the UK joining at the same time (and the UK refused to join) would require a "hard border" with Northern Ireland, trying to prevent such a hard border is now one of the big issues with Brexit.


To answer rob in cal's point. This is all highly speculative, and is unlikely to happen. I was just thinking, even if a country left, why would it bother to setup its own visa system, simpler to continue using the common Schengen one (hypothetically).

Switzerland actually joined in 2009, border checks on land borders were abolished on 12 December 2009. Before that it had its own visa system. Non-EU citizens had to be stamped in and out of Schengen/Switzerland at the border. Citizens of non-EU countries living in Switzerland (Turks, Indians), they needed a visa to cross the border into the Schengen Area.

I remember reading articles in the paper before that, of for example, a bus load on Chinese tourists travelling Germany --> Switzerland -->Italy, and one couple in the bus had not, despite being told by the travel agency, bothered to get a Swiss visa as well as a Schengen one. Had to be left behind at the border.
Not a good image for Swiss tourism.
Before the Switzerland joined Schengen there were a lot of border posts on minor roads, now closed and boarded up. There were a number of paths and farm tracks across the border, they had signs saying they could only be used by local residents.Signs are now gone.
There is still customs because Switzerland is not part of the EU. They only concern themselves with vehicles carrying commercial goods. On the back roads, there are signs saying you can only cross there if you have nothing to declare.
Example (click for google streetview). I know where that one is, the rail line also crosses the border

Posted by
10307 posts

Sla09 also means that that countries that joined in 2004 or later do not have the option to opt-out if joining Schengen as the Uk and Ireland did. They will be obliged to join. That is, any new or future member of the EU must join Schengen.

The irony being of course that RO, BUL, and CRO would love to accede to the Schengen Agreement as soon as possible, but other member states keep putting it off.