Europe operates on the dd/mm/yyyy way of expressing dates. In Europe, 9/11 is the ninth of November.
Dates on this forum are expressed as mm/dd/yyyy, even though the forum is all about Europe.
There are posters on this forum from outside the USA.
I don’t get it.
Maybe it’s how RS has his algorithm set to default to US date format? I don’t see many expressing dates without using the month spelled out rather than using all numbers.
The primary topic is Europe, but the majority of posters are US based.
I suspect the 'techy stuff' that makes this forum work was developed in the US, so not really surprising about the date format
Rick Steves Europe is a US-based business. The website is hosted in the USA. Stuff like date formatting is typically set to the default values used in the hosting location. While the folks in Edmonds certainly are cognizant of the way Europeans (and others) write dates and other things, they (mostly) live in the USA so they use US standards. Seems appropriate to me (and I suspect that simply using European formatting for such things would confuse more of their customers than it would to follow familiar conventions). They clearly note how Europeans deal with dates and other numbers in all the books.
Bigger fish to fry.
Aussie,
As the others have mentioned, I also suspect that the dates on this format are configured for a North American audience which is used to MM/DD/YY. The time format on this forum is also set for AM or PM, which is what most people are used to, rather than the 24 hour time which seems more common in Europe. That time format is also more common with transportation such as airlines and rail networks.
It would avoid a lot of confusion if all countries used the international ISO 8601 date format of YYYY/MM/DD. In my personal life, I normally use the international date standard and 24 hour time as that's what I had to use for employment and other activities, so have no problem with that.
I don’t get it.
I suppose next we’ll have to ask questions about Paris in French?
After working for a US-based bank doing business internationally, I find it easiest to express dates in correspondence as day, month spelled out, year -- ex.
5 January 2020 (required for our computer system) Reduces chances of misunderstanding.
I assume it's just the way the forum software is programmed. Which makes sense for a forum based in the USA.
I have used the National Express app to research coach tickets for trips in the UK. This is an app solely for trips within the UK. Yet when you choose a date, and the calendar comes up, the first day of the week is Sunday (!). I am so used to calendars in Europe starting with Monday, it can be very confusing. Again, I assume that the software National Express is using was made in the USA.
And the UK, as compared with the Continent, is not always consistent. Stories in the Times of London, for example, often have a dateline written, as in today's paper, "October 27 2019" (yes, no comma). I've even seen a date written in numbers the U.S. way once in a while, in a British environment. Can't remember where that was, but it was very surprising. Of course it's not a problem for dates after the 12th of the month, such as 27/10.
Because this is a US-based website with a primarily US-based audience. I would bet that the majority of readers on here don’t even know that Europe and the rest of the world uses a different format. Imagine the confusion that change would cause.
Good one Philip!
I am not sure what your point is. I always use the UK date format, although I always spell the month (eg 27 October) and sometimes have to do a double take when trying to work out what dates Americans mean as most posters use the American format, but a few haven’t in the past. More confusing is using three letters to abbreviate airport names.
I also use English spellings such as theatre not theater on this forum.
As others have noted... US company... US website... mainly used by US people. I will add that it's used by a lot of entry-level US travelers to Europe who have no idea that Europe uses a different date standard. Using the Europe date standard would be confusing to those people.
I suppose next we’ll have to ask questions about Paris in French?
+1
The world is not consistent. I have seen the YYYY-MO-DAY format used on websites in Europe, China, and the US. To say the world outside North America has some “international convention” is wrong.
Because the YYYY-MO-DAY format is digitally friendly (of the 3 formats it is the only one that alphabetizes chronologically when only numbers are used) it is the format that will win.
Frankly the DAY-MO-YYYY format is linguistically odd in English, May 27th is normal speech, the other way round requires 2 extra syllables, the 27th of May.
I edited my post because you are right, “the 27th of May” is normal speech here also.
This post is a good reminder to always check the month & date numbers when making reservations, etc. on-line. I'm always happy if there's a pull-down option spelling out & visually showing the month, just to make sure I'm not reserving Oct. 9 instead of Sept. 10, for instance.
I worked for an international business, and we all found it easiest to write out the month abbreviation for clear communication across the audience.
This is only my first hit but I would argue that the American date format was also the British format until some recent continental affectation to switch the numbers ‘round.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charles_Darwin,_letter_to_Emil_Holub.JPG
Edit: Here’s another.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/winston-churchill-resignation-letter-2014-3
According to this the DAY-MO-YEAR format is not used in Hungary or Lithuania.
While we are having this inane discussion, lets throw in feet and meters or miles and kilometers or even worse C and F.
Dates, distances, temps... in the US, illogic trumps logic ;-)
And then there is calenders where Monday is the first day of the week, not Sunday.
I am always confused by the mix of measures in the UK. You have petrol sold in liters, but measure distance in miles, then measure everything else in metric lengths and volumes. Except in pubs where beer and cider is still sold in pints. Weight of a person can be in kilos, or stone. I saw strawberries on offer at one of the grocers weighed by the pound. Makes me happy when I get home and, yes the measures are not evenly divisible or have easy to remember multiples, but they are all from the same system of weights and measures.
And the format of the date doesn't bother me as long as it is clear. I prefer the month spelled out to reduce confusion. So I don't book something for 10/11 and end up there in the wrong month.
I really couldn't care less about any of these things (except that one).
Who would have thought a simple post like this would engender such a pile on. One or maybe two answers commenting on the probability of software programming parameters should have been sufficient.
"To say the world outside North America has some “international convention” is wrong."
There is an International standard for expressing dates and times. Not every country or organization uses it, although the government firms I worked for did follow this standard.
Europe operates on the dd/mm/yyyy way of expressing dates.
Well actually in the Germanic countries we use dd.mm.yyyy and we also swap the meaning the full stop and the comma, the Swiss French and the Swiss Italians use slightly different formats to the French and the Italians.... you've only touched the tip of the ice berg.
And most of us know what the Americans mean in any case.
I wrote to the Webmaster asking if it would be possible to give forum users the option of how to display dates.
I don't know, it just seemed like a more productive approach than complaining about it on the forum.
I'll let you know his response.
I wrote to the Webmaster asking if it would be possible to give forum users the option of how to display dates.
You mean the date logging system for when a post is made?
Even if technically possible it would create so much confusion as to make 'dating' a post pointless.
'Who would have thought a simple post like this would engender such a pile on. One or maybe two answers commenting on the probability of software programming parameters should have been sufficient."
That's true, Nancy, but you're number 27 and I'm number 32. Look at your computers. Unless changed, the date will read year, month, day, the international standard. The opposite makes more sense to me, the month first makes no sense.
With Brexit loomimg, I soon might be able to order a tanners worth of chips again, though I'd likely only get 3 or 4 chips for a tanner nowadays. A pot of mushy peas is worth its weight in gold.
Ken,
Yes you are right, but the usual proponents of doing it the international system think DAY-MO-YEAR is the international system.
I prefer using D-M-Y but I know it is tough to change. What I wish is for people to just pay attention to this when filling out forms. They often don't and then confusion happens. The Military and Government switch it up by using the year first. Have used month abbreviations for years in email correspondence.
As to the extra words that some people think are a reason not to use D-M-Y, that is simply your own way of speaking and not how everyone talks. I just say 27 May. Quick, easy, to the point. No need to add in "the 27th of May.
Emmas' post is my favorite. Especially, the skant 5/8ths of an inch.
It took me a while to switch to weights while cooking, but after switching, it is a wonder so many people still use cups, pints, etc. Measurements like a pinch, a smidge, or a handful are fun to read in old cookbooks but aren't very accurate. The metric system, hands down, is extremely easy to use.
I know this has prob been mentioned before, but in Canada, I, at least, use a variety of metric and imperial. I know my weight in pounds and height in feet (don't try and tell me kilos or meters) but I think of distance in meters. I use Celcius for outdoor temp but my oven - as far as I can tell - only has F, as does my air con (but my thermostats on the wall are C). I still use cups and teaspoons for cooking, though when I'm buying something like meat, I'll use gms and lbs depending. And I buy my milk and gas in litres.
Best of all, my husband works for an engineering company, and they still do building measurements in feet and inches, UNLESS it's for the government, then it has to be metric. What fun.
It is not just the dates, they do the times in a funny way, with "AM" and "PM" after them (whatever that means) ☺
A suggestion to the webmaster, (s)he changes this to have both formats so people get used to them, as they will need "normal" format when they get to Europe. For example, the previous post shows as:
(posts are shown in your local time zone).
Underneath, it should say, in a smaller font:
13:12 28/10/19
That would also save some posters (me!) having to mentally convert.
The metric system, hands down, is extremely easy to use.
It’s not all rosier. Contours in half meters instead of even feet is odd. Also, site construction drawings are in millimeters (meters plus 3 decimals) as opposed to hundredths of a foot (feet plus 2 decimals). All those third decimals means a lot more numbers on a drawing.
The display of dates and time is irrelevant to how it is stored in the system.
One machine we use at work stores date and time as a single number representing the number of hundredths of seconds since 01 Jan 1978. Is it displayed that way? Of course not, it can be configured any way that you want to see it. Excel stores dates in a similar manner. The fact that your home computer displays dates in file directories as year/month/day means nothing about how it is actually stored internally.
The same could be done here, if they wanted it to be, and you could choose from a multitude of date/time formats to fit what is most comfortable to you. Would it be easy to implement? Don't know since the forum is a custom software system. Would they even want allow such an option? Also, not our decision to make, only to suggest.
This post is a good reminder to always check the month & date numbers
when making reservations, etc. on-line.
You beat me to it, a good reminder to always check and never assume. While Canada doesn't have an official way to write it, most government documents such as passport and Drivers License are following the day/month/year format, however I've also noticed that here we appear to spell out the month on these documents, i.e. today's date is 28/Oct/2019. But this same federal government as well as the Standards Council of Canada recommends the year/month/date format which meets ISO 8601 standard. Federal regulation also requires perishable goods to be stamped with year/month/date.
Here's an article from 2016, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/proposed-legislation-aims-to-settle-date-debate-1.3407640
I looked for a followup article to see if it ever happened, but sadly, like most governments in the world, something that makes sense must find it's way to the garbage bin.
This is only my first hit but I would argue that the American date format was also the British format until some recent continental affectation to switch the numbers ‘round.
Depends how far you go back maybe.
For example the Calendar (New Style) Act 1750 which adopted the Gregorian Calendar throughout "all his Majesty’s Dominions and Countries in Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, belonging or subject to the Crown of Great Britain" mainly uses the format 'the Xth Day of Y month, but also includes such phrases as 'The Days to be numbered as now until 2 Sept. 1752; and the Day following to be accounted 14 Sept. omitting 11 Days.' Nowhere in that Act does the month appear before the number of the day.
I can remember the custom of putting the months in Roman numerals was quite common in some countries (eg 28 October 2019 would be 28.X.19) but that is unreadable at least easily by computer.
People, people, people...you need to remember a few facts...
This forum, while enjoyable to many of us, and valuable to both users and its owners, is not a profit center for the company. Maintaining it is a cost for them. So there is no great incentive for them to spend a bunch of effort (time, money) on small enhancements as described here. Could it be done? Sure. But that must be weighed against not just the (non-trivial) cost to do so but also against what other enhancements might be competing for that same (limited) investment. This forum is not their main line of business. While nearly anything could be done if they chose to, the management is going to srcutinize and prioritize, as is appropiate.
Honestly...minor enhancements like this are extremely unlikely to make the cut. That's just my guess from being in the business a long time and knowing how this place runs (not a Rick Steves employee, just a longtime observer/participant). Personally, I can think of many other feature enhancements I would prioritize above this -- I'm sure everyone has their own list, too.
It's OK to ask for things (in fact, just about anything) but one needs to be realistic about what one can expect and how much juice you want to invest in lobbying for things. Especially for free.
Just my 2 eurocents.
Even if "they" changed the forum format, "we" would still write dates in our comments in whatever format we would choose. Unless of course we all agreed to a standard... everyone gets a vote. I vote for ISO because it alphabetizes chronologically. And because it favors no current group, except perhaps the military. Feel free to vote. I'll tabulate. Hehe. "The ISOs have it!"
And them some poor newbie will come on and post in their own format. And we'll jump all over them and cry foul to the webmaster, who will admonish us for being overly critical to first time posters. At which point we will ask at least for a sticky.
Let's skip it. Good ideas into the trash bin, as suggested above. And anyway we're not sending rockets to Mars.
I get a Christmas/holiday gift every year from Trip Advisor as I'm a Destination Expert. I love my Trip Advisor swag.
I get a Christmas/holiday
That highights another date issue. For a Brit, the "holiday period" is the period over the summer when everybody "goes on holiday", for example "I am going on holiday to Spain this year". Vacation is a relatively obscure word only used by universities and law courts to signify the time they are closed.
For north Americans, "holiday period" appears to refer to Christmas and the New Year, not what I would call the "holiday period".
Yup, that was exactly my intention with my post.
Emma, I don't disagree with you - the forum is indeed an extremely valuable resource for the company (and for its participants) - replacing its function with paid staff would cost a fortune. But there's no way any business would do that (it's not their main business, and frankly why should they spend all that money when they can get it done by volunteers?).
To be clear, I have no doubt they do value the efforts that everyone puts in here. They also do spend some money on its maintenance (multiple employees work on it behind the scenes; and it's software so like all software, it requires ongoing updates, tweaks, backups, and regular maintenance). But I'm also quite sure they want to keep the costs associated with the forum controlled. No doubt they keep a list of potential feature enhancements (and bug fixes) somewhere, all those items are prioritized (and each probably has some wild guess cost estimate) and periodically they review that list and decide which (if any) of the items are worth doing. They do make improvements and changes, just not a lot of obvious ones we notice.
So yes, they do make ongoing financial investments in the forum. But adding new features (like the option to customize date formatting) all get added to that big "to do list" and have to compete against other items, with limited resources. I'm sure they don't mind getting requests for improvements. But this is one I'd guess is not likely to bubble to the top of the list.
Again, just an observer here making guesses.
I did get a nice reply from Andrew, the webmaster. He did not give me permission to reproduce his reply here, so I'll list his main points
If you feel strongly that having some way to customize the display of date/time formats in the forum would be a good thing, I'd recommend sending a message to the webmaster directly.
Wow. So many responses.
What I was flagging was this: a post will say “we arrive in Rome on 12/10, and have two weeks in Italy etc”. There is a big difference between a mid December and mid October arrival.
Perish the thought that one might email a hotel and ask for room availability “double room, arriving 12/10, staying for four nights”.
The best part of this discussion -- if some less-experienced traveler sees it, at least he/she will be forewarned about the different ways of stating the same date and will know to be VERY careful about reading any dates with numbers 12 or less.
To make it clear what I am saying.
12/13 is not contentious.
12/12 is not contentious.
12/10 is ambiguous
10/12 is ambiguous
So this is an issue for anyone who works for British or likely any European company. Our solution is to put all dates in this format as it is the only way we are on the same page. We use 1/Sept/2019 for the US 9/1/2019. By including the month abbreviation in the middle we all know what date we are referring to. I constantly update spreadsheets with this format. It provides clarity.
Interesting conversation but alias Much Ado About Nothing.
The forum is intended for a US audience: overseas contributors are however fantastic, greatly appreciated, and their input very important.
99% of questions come from US residents - the intended audience. This forum exists for OPs with under 10 posts aka new travelers.
There is simply almost NO confusion about dates: 12/10/19 is simply December 10, 2019. And 99% of those asking questions (OP’s ) understand that.
If however the date is extremely critical to a potential answer all anyone needs to do is send a polite PM to the OP advising of the potential date issue and seek a clarification. Once the clarification is in hand post an answer.
Travel safe,
One Fast Bob
Well Bob, if I see 12/10/2019, I would see that as a date some nineteen days ago, today being 31/10/2019.
I think the good Rick would hope that his forums, books and indeed his travel services might find an audience and market outside the USA.
Bob, compared to many, you have a relatively slender number of posts. There are many here with a thousand or three posts to their names.
Rick’s audience is the US.
This forum is for new travelers...the operative term being “new”. Regulars seem to think it exists for them but in reality it is for those new to travel to ask questions and learn and 99% of those are US based (as are most responders).
As for his books- dates are spelled out...December, April etc thus NO Confusion.
As for time, his books make that very clear: he uses the 24 hour clock. He explains the difference between am/pm vs 24 hr with clear examples and then states all times in the book are 24 hr based (just like in Europe).
Again, much ado about nothing.
And again, if you believe an OP is making reference to an expired date simply send them a PM and politely enquire, don’t cost nothin.
Well, maybe a new traveller asks a question. Maybe a traveller who has visited a place many times asks a question.
There is always something to learn.
Rick’s audience is the US. This forum is for new travelers...the
operative term being “new”. Regulars seem to think it exists for them
but in reality it is for those new to travel to ask questions and
learn and 99% of those are US based (as are most responders).
So, as a non-American, experienced traveler should I log out and never come back?
that's up to you I guess. personally, there is a UK forum I feel good in despite the fact that I'm not one of them.
Rick’s audience is the US. This forum is for new travelers.
And new travellers (note spelling) are helped by knowing that the world outside their country often does things differently, in ways they never even thought could be done differently, in such a a way that they can make big mistakes if they are not informed of such differences.
Yours, Chris, at 20:23 31/10/19, in a country called Schweiz, where the temperature is a mild 12° and distances are measured in metres and Km, and things are weighed in Kg.
And new travellers (note spelling)
Yes, two l's in UK, one l in the US. Neither is right or wrong, just a different convention. Sort of like the formats for dates.
Europe operates on the dd/mm/yyyy way of expressing dates.
Even that is a generalization. In Sweden, one typically writes the date using a YYYY-MM-DD format (i.e. 2019-10-31). I personally think that format is far more sensible than either the dd/mm/yyyy or mm/dd/yyyy standard.
It would probably most clear to everyone if the date were presented in the 31 Oct 2019 format.
We file things on the computer yy.mm.dd cause it will list in order that way. Probably the most logical 21 century way of doing it.
And new travellers (note spelling) are helped by knowing that the
world outside their country often does things differently, in ways
they never even thought could be done differently, in such a a way
that they can make big mistakes if they are not informed of such
differences.
As in some, at least one, European culture writes names: Family Given. Then some in that culture, to be more universally conventional began doing: Given Family. It got so screwed up that many have resorted to FAMILY Given or Given FAMILY. The mess really only exists with foreigners who don't recognize Family names or Given names because of the strangeness of the language.
Then there are Spanish names ... Consuela Maria Rodriguez Martinez de Rabadan. That would be Mr Rodriguez's daughter. I dont know anyone that actually does that, but it can be done.
Well, the Kyrgyz are now (slowly) moving towards their original name convention of Name Father'sname kyzy (for females, I forget what it is for males). Kind of like Icelandic-style, no last names, with Name Father'snamedottir or Farthersnameson. While it might work for Islensk people, there're several million more Kyrgyz out there - bound to cause a little confusion down the road.
When in Rome (Europe) etc.
Ditto if writing about or enquiring about Europe (including the not very united UK).
Talk euro for costs.
Talk local language for places (Firenze vs Florence, the Piazza vs Saint Marks Square).
Dates as per local custom.
Tipping in dollar bills is not encouraged, ditto nylons, Luckies or Hershey bars.
Talk local language for places (Firenze vs Florence, the Piazza vs
Saint Marks Square)
Why? If the Firenze tour guide doesnt know the English word for Firenze, then I would suspect the guide doesnt know anything else I am saying either.
By your theory my next trip will be to Magyarország. I can say it, but I butcher it when I do. The English translation, which the Magyarország government itself uses when printing in English, works just fine.
James wrote:
Talk local language for places (Firenze vs Florence, the Piazza vs
Saint Marks Square)
Why? If the Firenze tour guide doesnt know the English word for Firenze, then I would suspect the guide doesnt know anything else I am saying either.
Simple answer: It is way easier to find Firenze SMN than Florence Central Station.
Plug Venice into a rail booking site and you maybe get Mestre. But plug Venezia SL into the site and you get actual downtown Venice.
Funny, the Italian Rail site gives me the stations in "Florence".
The statement was phrased as though you were somehow disadvantaged operating in English. I don't buy that in most instances. I have no idea how to pronounce Florence in Italian, but it would be fun to ask a waiter or waitress help me learn it. Then I could walk around correcting tourists .... Naaaa. Let's just say, then I would have learned something, and personal enrichment is the real use of such knowledge. Now if I can master Magyarország, or just admit, nem beszélek magyarul.
Talk local language for places (Firenze vs Florence . . . .
It is a matter of if you are travelling (or travel planning), you absolutely need to know the local name, as that is what the signs are in.
Funny, the Italian Rail site gives me the stations in "Florence".
Sorry, https://www.trenitalia.com/en.html does not recognise Florence, or Rome, or Venice; you have to put in "Firenze S. M. Novella", "Roma" or "Venezia S. Lucia".
I was in München Hbf last week (that's Munich Main Station to you) and saw a train listed destination "Venedig". Not Italian, not English, but the German version of the name!
Of course if you are on a guided tour, transport organised and guide to tell you where to go, you don't need to know this.
If one is accessing a travel forum for a US based company, wouldn't you need to do the code switch? I get being aware of names in the local way, and knowing the local currency to make good decision about cost, but it's a bit of a stretch to expect advice seekers to get on this website and begin asking questions in the European style or for the date to display European style. The best compromise would be to have the date reformatted to have the month written out, and a simple follow up with posters to clarify their dates of travel.
Chris F, I will always own up when wrong. I checked ItaliRail, that had Florence, as does OBB and the French and Hungarian rail companies. So, I was wrong. Still not too worried. It is good, I admit to recognize the home language names, but still not sure if mispronouncing a name will help me get some place faster. But I give you this, the Italian Rail Service site isn't as friendly to tourists as many are. What do I do when I go to Ukraine? Learn Cyrillic? Guess so.
Oh, but there is one distinction. I'm no Traveler, I'm just a simple Tourist who checks a bag and brings Euros from the States.
